Gay and Muslim?
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Salam
Therefore, you are making the following conclusion
Did Allah mistakenly told the story or say something which is futility in His Book?
and is therefore self contradicting the following verse
Alif Lam Ra (This is) a Book
whose verses are made DECISIVE <- eg. La ilaha illa Allah
then are they made PLAIN <- explanation, refer here and (2.67-71)
from the Wise, All-aware
(111)Alif laam raa, (inilah) suatu kitab
yang ayat-ayatnya disusun dengan rapi
serta dijelaskan secara terperinci
yang diturunkan dari sisi (Allah) Yang Maha Bijaksana lagi Maha Tahu,
(111)Alif, Laam, Raa'. Al-Quran sebuah Kitab
yang tersusun ayat-ayatnya dengan tetap teguh
kemudian dijelaskan pula kandungannya satu persatu
(Susunan dan penjelasan itu) adalah dari sisi Allah Yang Maha Bijaksana, lagi Maha Mendalam pengetahuanNya
(111)The verse is now, according to you, is not perfect.
It is inserted there with no purpose.
and
Is homosexual the faahisyah in that verse??No absolutely not
refer here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg340756#msg340756
How about sexual intercourse with animals?
Can human beings make sexual intercourse with chickens? birds? goats? cows? cats?
(Warning!! please buy health insurance to cover costs of surgery before involving with any of these animals, especially cats! I disclaim any responsibility for any wrongful or ridiculous advice from any members in this forum! ;D )Is it faahisyah?
Allah did not mention it in the Qur'an, and people can declare it as their "mates" to escape any prohibitions, or even human laws (defence of lawful religious practices etc.).
Is this your logic? confused
(from here, main issue)
The problem of difference in tafseer within Quranist is lack of study and lack of wisdom and clear thinking.
I try to use wisdomly conclusion for this cause, read http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605584.msg332714#msg332714
I already told you if 235-6 is not about marriage, but guard private parts from mate (mate can be same-sex gender).
I believe you have much wisdom and clear thinking to answer all these contradictions.
Therefore..
How do you answer all these self contradictions?
Peace
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Salam
How the rules in the Qur'an is plain, perfect and detail?
The Qur'an is very clear and detailed by using the method of "exclusionary principle". Therefore the rules in the Qur'an are very precise and direct. Of course, there are other methods.
Facts
"... And those who guard their private parts. Except from their wives or those their right hands possess..." (7029-31)
Analysis
And those
who guard <- What is "guard"? Scope?
their private parts <- What is "private parts"? Scope?
Except <- The implication of the word "except"? An exclusion to all other than marriages?
from
their wives <- Is it referring to "marriage"? What is "wives"?Question
Whether Allah has permitted "marriage" (or those their right hands possess) and PROHIBIT EVERYTHING ELSE?
(ie. same-sex marriage, homosexuality, masturbation, child marriage, animal sex, polygamy, incest etc)
Therefore, the Qur'an does not need to mention the prohibition of sexual intercourse with animals or all other sexual offences, and at the same time, being fully detailed. That is how verses in the Qur'an is plain, perfect and fully detailed; ie. the "exclusionary principle".
These were only my views. Allah Knows Best .
Peace
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Your question's pattern is sorry it's nonsense for me, and my answer actually both A and B.
MAJOR QUESTION/ISSUE
Whether "homosexuals" must guard their "private parts" EXCEPT to "wives" (women/marriage)?
Answer, choose one
Homosexuals "must guard" their private parts except to "wives" (ie. marriage)
Homosexuals "can use" their private parts to "anyone" (ie. same-sex marriage, etc.)
Salam
What nonsense?
Please read again, I say "anyone", with "quote"!!
Do you understand what is "anyone"?
Therefore your answer is B; ie. "Homosexuals "can use" their private parts to "anyone" (ie. same-sex marriage, etc.)"
Wow.. That's pretty easy!
Is this wisdom and clear thinking?
Sounds like there are no rules at all to homosexuals.
Are you sure this is your logic? confused
I believe you have much wisdom and clear thinking to answer all these contradictions.
Ok actually I get bored talking about homosexuality in this forum, but because it seems some members in here didn't study the Quran properly
...
but there is no verse in the Quran which prohibit same sex marriage, if that verse is exist, just bring it to me.
...
If you disagree with this, then bring me one verse in the Quran which told us to judging or punish gays and lesbian.If you capable, I will hail to you.
Peace
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The verse is now, according to you, is not perfect.
It is inserted there with no purpose.
Yes it's according to your perception.So do not make refutation.
refer here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg340756#msg340756
Okay what I want critics from @Alkitab is this
- 27 - 55
2755(What! do you indeed approach men with desire rather than women? Nay, you are a people who act ignorantly.
The huruf alif-hamzah in there is interogatif prefix, means used for interrogate people.That huruf can be mean is/are-you, why etc.
But @Alkitab translated that alif-hamzah as "what!", which indicated if that sentence is a response not interrogate.Plus he translate the word bal/ as "nay".Nay or not in Arabic is kala/ or simply laa/.
Bal is conjunctive, in english="but".The proper translation of 2755 according to me is
"Why that you appoarch male sexually not another female,but you're ignorant people.??"This verse actually a question from Luth to his people not a response.The another proof is the next 2756.
" ...."
"Then some/no answer (from) his people..."Now I want ask you, since when homosexual=al faahishah??
From verses 1559-60, 780, it's clearly explisit.Sodom commited sin/lewdness not a homosexual. (by looking 780).
Verse 780 is also clearly said if homosex didn't included as faahishah in Luth' story.If you read Luth story carefully,by using Tanakh-Old Testament aslo, actually what Sodom mens did is forced rape not a pure homosexual.
As I said to judge if homosexual is haram or not is by looking what cause they do that??
Why God create humans with homosex brains while he condemn the homosexual act??Is God do contradictions??If we study Quran we must see the context.Which one is God's commanment, which one is human/phrophet saying??
Whether Allah has permitted "marriage" (or those their right hands possess) and PROHIBIT EVERYTHING ELSE?
(ie. same-sex marriage, homosexuality, masturbation, child marriage, animal sex, polygamy, incest etc)
So according to you, masturbation is a marriage??
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So according to you, masturbation is a marriage??
Salam
You seriously need to read again, I don't know where you get that idea.
Further, are you going to keep ignoring the questions or issues and jump from one to the other?
Is this how you decide what is right or wrong?
By ignoring what people are asking you, and diverting to other irrelevant issues?
Peace
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You seriously need to read again, and are you going to keep ignoring the questions or issues and jump from one to the other?
Is this how you decide what is right or wrong?
By ignoring what people are asking you?
I'm not jumping, I just try to respond your posts.
Muslims both from Indonesia and Malaysia is same, most of them still influenced by dogmtic terminologies.
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Muslims both from Indonesia and Malaysia is same, most of them still influenced by dogmtic terminologies.
Salam
You are bringing other irrelevant issues.
How can you say it is dogmatic when I am referring you to the direct verses from the Qur'an?
Do I refer to any hadith, or making a personal opinion? Nope!
Why all this nonsense? Do you need to prove yourselves is acquainted with modern thinking?
You can have all the nonsense you want, but give me "valid reasons" from the Qur'an, rather than making ridiculous claims in the name of Allah.
Peace
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How can you say it is dogmatic when I am referring you the direct verse of the Qur'an.
Direct what?? This how the sectarian work, they intepretate Scripture too literally, but avoid anykinds of facts and wisdom.
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How can you say it is dogmatic when I am referring you to the direct verses from the Qur'an?
Do I refer to any hadith, or making a personal opinion? Nope!
Why all this nonsense? Do you need to prove yourselves is acquainted with modern thinking?
You can have all the nonsense you want, but give me "valid reasons" from the Qur'an, rather than making ridiculous claims in the name of Allah.
Can you read THIS, before keep asking which verses, what verses!!
Modern or not, it's not important.
You may not use hadith for prove, but in the Nusantara archipelogo, the home of you and me, Sunni Islam terminologies already influenced our society.Like see homosexual as a taboo. -
Direct what?? This how the sectarian work, they intepretate Scripture too literally, but avoid anykinds of facts and wisdom.
Salam
See? you bring another issue and "blank accusation" of being a sectarian.
and no, I'm okay with homosexual and neither did I raise any points based on sectarian. (refer here)
I'm raising the issue of "What is the rule in the Qur'an?" relating to "private parts" (including homosexuals)
Therefore, please quote where I make personal opinion and does not referring to the Qur'an.
Please prove your blank accusations with quote.
Don't just say it, prove it!
Direct what??
Further, how can you ask me "direct what"? confused
This is our main issue (from here)
This what you decide "Homosexuals "can use" their private parts to "anyone" (ie. same-sex marriage, etc.)"
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341124#msg341124
This is our secondary issue Whether the word is referring to "wives/spouses" or "mates", which you say it is "mates" and shall include permission for sexual intercourse between the same gender.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341106#msg341106
List of translations that say the word is "wives/spouses"
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341043#msg341043
These are my questions or issues from your interpretation on "wives/spouses" or "mates" self contradictions
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341112#msg341112
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341117#msg341117
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341120#msg341120These are my views
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341121#msg341121
How come people of wisdom and clear thinking like you are needed to make "blank accusations" and diverting from answering the questions?
Why this feeling of being insecure? confused
but there is no verse in the Quran which prohibit same sex marriage, if that verse is exist, just bring it to me.
...
If you disagree with this, then bring me one verse in the Quran which told us to judging or punish gays and lesbian.If you capable, I will hail to you.
Peace
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Further, how can you ask me "direct what"? confused
This is our main issue (from here)
I think I already respond what's "mate".Tetapi bapak muter2 terus
Ini bapak yang baik hati, ente baca lagi yaa http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341097#msg341097
Kalau gak ngerti tanya, jangan menanyakan pertanyaan yang sama terus.
Peace
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I think I already respond what's "mate".Tetapi bapak muter2 terus
Ini bapak yang baik hati, ente baca lagi yaa http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341097#msg341097
Kalau gak ngerti tanya, jangan menanyakan pertanyaan yang sama terus.
Peace
Salam
Where is your answer to the following issues relating to self contradicting Qur'an?
How many times I have to ask you, and how many times you want to deny this?
These are my questions or issues from your interpretation on "wives/spouses" or "mates" self contradictions
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341112#msg341112
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341117#msg341117
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341120#msg341120The self contradictions from your interpretation of the word "mates"..
How about sexual intercourse with animals?
Can human beings make sexual intercourse with chickens? birds? goats? cows? cats?
(Warning!! please buy health insurance to cover costs of surgery before involving with any of these animals, especially cats! I disclaim any responsibility for any wrongful or ridiculous advice from any members in this forum! ;D )Is it faahisyah?
Allah did not mention it in the Qur'an, and people can declare it as their "mates" to escape any prohibitions, or even human laws (defence of lawful religious practices etc.).
Is this your logic? confused
Of course it is self contradicting, how can you say "Allah is allowing sexual intercourse between same sex", and at the same time it is a "transgression"? Did Allah mistakenly told the story or say something which is futility in His Book?
In fact, we don't need rules relating to marriages.
We just need "mates", same gender or else; ie. may also include animals etc, as long it is "mates".
How hard for you to understand this simple logic?
(from here)
No, I'm not ignoring your answer and yet, I mentioned how a "forumer" is better qualified and could reject all major translations in this world as being incorrect, in that particular verse.
Further, you are not answering my question, but diverting it to other issues.
Now, do you realize your conclusion that "mates" can be of the same sex (or different sex) means all the rules in "the Qur'an is now self-contradicting"?
All the rules relating to sexual prohibitions in the Qur'an is meaningless?
These rules? (refer here)
Including the rules that say homosexual is a transgression? (ie. the Qur'an is now self contradicting)
In fact, we don't need rules relating to marriages.
Is this your logic?
A self-contradicting Qur'an?
Do you understand what is being asked here?
Peace
-
Salam
Where is your answer to the following issues?
How many times I have to ask you, and how many times you want to deny this?
Peace
How strange you are?
All of your questions is still same, you didn't understand what's the meaning of "mate" in the Quran.
You keep give Alkitab's post, while I already make refutation against him.Please if you don't understand my post, which part?? I will re-explain again.
AND I WILL NOT RESPOND YOUR ANIMAL SEX, INDEED IT"S OFF TOPIC
-
Salam
Read again, it has been so many times you have failed to understand what you read and making false claims.
I already told you if 235-6 is not about marriage, but guard private parts from mate (mate can be same-sex gender).
This what you decide "Homosexuals "can use" their private parts to "anyone" (ie. same-sex marriage, etc.)"
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341124#msg341124
This is our secondary issue Whether the word is referring to "wives/spouses" or "mates", which you say it is "mates" and shall include permission for sexual intercourse between the same gender.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341106#msg341106
List of translations that say the word is "wives/spouses"
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341043#msg341043
Peace
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AND I WILL NOT RESPOND YOUR ANIMAL SEX, INDEED IT"S OFF TOPIC
Salam
No it is not (refer here), Allah is speaking about "private parts", and it is either you use it
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to your wife (woman, marriage); OR
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to any other than your wife, ie. the word "except"; ie. to "anyone" (refer here), including animals.. since you are denying about "marriage" and mentioning about "mates"
Therefore and according to your argument, if "mates" can be interpreted as "sexual intercourse with same gender", then it must also include sex with animals, as long it is "mates". This is so since you are rejecting the element of "marriage" and "wives" from the ayat.
Why? You are now confused with your own logic? ;D
Rule relating to reasoning..
And the example of a bad word
is like a bad tree
uprooted from the surface of the earth
not having any stability
(1426)Peace
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Oh God.What happen to yu?
As I said MATE IN THE QURAN IS NEUTRAL IN GENDER
Verses about "guard private part" is 235-6
23.5 And who () keep covered their private parts.
23.6 Except around their mates (), or those who are maintained by their oaths, they are free from blame.The blue word is allazi mean which, who, whom, whose and this is masculine.
The red word is azwaj or zawaj, means mate (mate can be husband or wife) and interestingly the red word is also masculine!!This means this verse is neutral in gender and translations you used is a distortion one.
And verse 7029-31 is a repetation of 235-6.The subject of verse 235 is allazi (masculine in gender), interestingly mate/spouse in 236 is also (masculine in gender).
SO HOW YU STILL JUDGE IF MATE IN 236 IS WIFE, MY BROTHER
Peace
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Oh God.What happen to yu?
As I said MATE IN THE QURAN IS NEUTRAL IN GENDER
The subject of verse 235 is allazi (masculine in gender), interestingly mate/spouse in 236 is also (masculine in gender).
SO HOW YU STILL JUDGE IF MATE IN 236 IS WIFE, MY BROTHER
Peace
Salam
It doesn't matter, the important point is you are denying the word is related to "marriage", ie. you are denying the interpretation as "wives/spouses".
Therefore, if it is "wife/spouse", then it is referring to "marriage".
If "mates", then it is referring to "anyone or non marriages".
ie. men and women, men and men, women and women, men and animals, women and animals etc... as long it is "mates", and not necessarily "marriages", but may also include "same sex marriage"
Is this what you agree? Read again.
This what you decide "Homosexuals "can use" their private parts to "anyone" (ie. same-sex marriage, etc.)"
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341124#msg341124
Differences
And those who guard their private parts <- ALL human beings have private parts (+homosexual)
Except from their wives/spouses <- I say referring to marriages
or those their right hands possess
for indeed, they are not to be blamed
But whoever seeks beyond that
then they are the transgressors
(7029-31)your translation
And those who guard their private parts
Except from their mates <- You say not referring marriages, ANYONE!
or those their right hands possess
for indeed, they are not to be blamed
But whoever seeks beyond that
then they are the transgressors
(7029-31)different translations wives or spouses
(refer here)
Peace
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Your lack is too hasty for make generalization.
Then you accuse me for mate can be animal, hence you're out of context.
Please use common sense, what I mean mate is spouse of course
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I mean mate is spouse of course
Salam
So you did mean it as "spouse"!!!
Definition of "spouse"
spouse (spous, spouz)
n.
A marriage partner; a husband or wife.
tr.v. (spouz, spous) spoused, spous?ing, spous?es Archaic
To marry; wed.http//www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spouse
http//www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/spouse
http//dictionary.reference.com/browse/spouse
http//www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/spouseThe spouse is a marriage partner, a husband or wife. The word spouses are an inference for "marriages" and is according to the Qur'an.
comparison; "mates", which can also mean other than marriages, and as long they can fit each other.
http//dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/mate_1
http//www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/mate
http//www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mate
http//www.thefreedictionary.com/mate
http//dictionary.reference.com/browse/mateTherefore and if you are referring it to "spouses", then it must mean "marriages"!
Therefore, it must also mean different sex or gender; ie. husband and wife, and because there is no such thing as "same-sex marriage" in the Qur'an. You have said it, "Yes marriage in Quran is about husband and wive".
Therefore, Allah is only allowing marriages in (235-6) or (7029-31), and prohibit every other than marriages (refer here), including homosexuality.
Can we agree on this?
Otherwise, they can use their "private parts" to anyone, including animals!
Therefore your answer is B; ie. "Homosexuals "can use" their private parts to "anyone" (ie. same-sex marriage, etc.)"
and the Qur'an will be self contradicting...
These are my questions or issues from your interpretation on "wives/spouses" or "mates" self contradictions
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341112#msg341112
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341117#msg341117
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341120#msg341120See how you get caught with your so-called wisdom and clear thinking? ;D
what I mean mate is spouse of course
Yes marriage in Quran is about husband and wive
I already told you if 235-6 is not about marriage
Peace
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All of your posts, just merely out of context.You only used logic, logic n logic withouth see context.
See how you get caught with your so-called wisdom and clear thinking? ;D
Quote from Earthdom on Yesterday at 104821 pm
what I mean mate is spouse of courseQuote from Earthdom on Yesterday at 053748 pm
Yes marriage in Quran is about husband and wiveQuote from Earthdom on Yesterday at 053748 pm
I already told you if 235-6 is not about marriageThis is one of your lack.You quoted someone arguments and do out of contex
You create premis by quoted my posts.Three of them has no relation at all and each sentence talking about different conteks.This is you who very pride to your logic science and misunderstood someone post mostly.
You also play rolling yourself in your posts.Ok I think I must stop get discussion with you in this thread, coz the discussion will no ending.
Peace