Gay and Muslim?
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Salam
I am talking about ehat the Qur'an says. As ytou can see from the ayas I quoted in the Qur'an marriage is not distinct from sex between a woman and a man.
4.25 ...and give them (women) their dues with equity with their virtue, without impropriety nor taking them as secret partners...
?where do you see here a marriage as distinct from a sexual relationship?
RED is mine
Please explain how does the above ayat is the authority for making an assumption that "sex is marriage, and marriage is sex".
Secondly,
But as I pointed out, there is no reason for any society not to allow, I think it should be allowed, because not allowing it is tyrannical against people, for any two or more persons to contract sharing a home, sharing obligations, in whichever terms they agree, be they of the same sex or of different sex. Contract inssurances for the partners, etc. That would be sharing a good part of life, but would not be marriage.
RED Is mine
I believe this will involve different issues, ie. "Whether gay is a public offence or private offence?". Why it is an offence when it is private between two individuals? Why prostitution is an offence?
(**Is it a private offence? It involves two parties and can be considered as a public offence, an offering to the public to join the offeror committing an offence, harming the other party and exposing them to various infections or diseases to the other, their family and relatives (+humiliation) and the society at large; cf. abettors, non-payment of taxes or zakat, and punishment for adultery, ie. it is a public sentence. Private is related to one single entity, you alone and without contacts with two or more persons, eg. leaving prayers.)
Peace peace
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Salam
RED is mine
Please explain how does the above ayat is the authority for making an assumption that "sex is marriage, and marriage is sex".
Secondly,
RED Is mine
I believe this will involve different issues, ie. "Whether gay is a public offence or private offence?". Why it is an offence when it is private between two individuals? Why prostitution is an offence?
Peace peace
Please explain how does the above ayat is the authority for making an assumption that " "sex is marriage, and marriage is sex".
What is it talking about according to you? What does show in the aya that sex could be a distinct thing for marriage and that you could have sex but not give ujur and have it secret? Precisely what it is doing is not stating that you are making a contract but hat the thingW, in itself, to God's law is the contract, when you take a woman it is always before God, it is not on His back or IN SECRET. You are taking an undertaking. God is nto saying you need so and so and formalise so and so, it is saying that those women are allowed BY HIM to you if you do so and so. Obviously it is talking about sex. Or if you take it that it is not talking about sex, about what is it talking, it does not say marriage at all. There is no escape form it. When you engage in sex with a women, you are engaging with a women, full stop. There is no "I did not mean to marry her". God does nto allow such tricks. The fact that mentally people are usually schizofrenic as towhat is a relationship between a man and a woman as sexes, they are trampling on God's law. What, do you think that because you do it hiding and not undetaking any obligation that God is turning a blind eye on what you do with that he calls a mithaq ghaliDhan? You have crank too much of male irresposibility and female too in latest years, but it is a human product, no a divine product. And even it has not been always so. In earlier centuries society did expect of men, even when they did not contract officially anything that thy did acknowledge publicly their relationships and their offspring. The male obliviousness to that is fairley recent in western thought, and it has permeated oriental thought making for orientals the worst of two worlds. In the XV-XVI centuries, at least in Spanish scope, it was nto a shame not to be officially married and still have relationships and have children. Men did acknowledge those relationships publicly and acknoledged their offspring publicly. Later that changed, but it was clear to them as it is clear to anybody that is not brainwashed, that people, naas, are not animals nor ignorant of humanness and God's given fitra, and the same as they are not animals for other things they are not so either for their flesh relationships ans their offspring.
It is the Satanic way to disintegrate and to separate, cody from mind, body from heart, and go on to say that they do not have anything to do.
So next thing we are going to say is that children do not exist because there is no contrac on them, and that if there is no official certificate of birth they do not exist? No, the birth is nto the paper or de official, clerical certification of the birth, that is what others do with respect to it, but they are not the fact of the birth. The same with the relationship, you may be oblivious to its engagement, but IT IS THERE AND REAL. We may forget it at our won risk and cheat ourselves as much as we want. God is nto cheated. God's sees through all the tricks and God will make us see the truth, billingly or unwillingly, and we will se hell through our blindness to think that what we name is what it is. God is telling us int he Qur'an what it is. He is not talking about a paper, papers are for our protection on this earth from being cheated or being confused, it is not for our hearts, our hearts know how we do. And mahy times we muflle them up and do not let them talk to us.
Any way, separate flesh from paper as much as we want. We do it against ourselves.
This divorce, between deed and paper, between flesh and ming, and heart, is a sign of disintegration. i think that the world in many things has come forward, even in moral things, fortunately, but on others we are mightily deluded. We are very clever with our tongues and mind tricks, but we are deluded in many other things. Some males tend to think that they can compartimentalize what is a real relationship and what is just nothing, why? because they are nothing when they engage in nothing. They become nothing in order for the things they do to mean nothing.
Same with the women who have followed their example. Too bad the women's liberation, well overdue an still overdue, was so arranged that the women became as bad as the males and no the other way round. But since we have that default setting that males are perfect and if anybody wants to be perfect they should become as a male, there we are.
So marriage and sex are to separate things. Does God say that, please quote HIM.
Salaam
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Sex = Marriage
Marriage = Sex
Therefore, there is only "Marriage"Therefore, "Sex" must be defined according to "Marriage" (God's Law)
I already get discusccion about gay in many times in this thread.
We cannot understand Islam by using human's definition.I suggest you read ayat 780. In that ayat Luth said if Sodom do lewdness (faahisyah) which never be done by any humans before, but according to historical study the homosexual already happened before Luth's era.This is very exsplisit if what lewdness Luth means is not homosexual.
I already wrote many posts about this POST 1, POST 2.
I do not fully support homosexs, instead I saw that act is forbidden or not based on what the cause of the homosexual.
Cheers.
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Salaam,
Homosexuality is against the design, but is not against nature. We are not designed for homosexual intercourse, but it still exists in nature.
God bless you
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Salam huruf,
Let me highlight the issue so we are able to focus. The issue is...
ISSUE Whether sex is marriage, and marriage is sex.
Your conclusion (REFER HERE)
My conclusion (REFER HERE)Firstly,
So marriage and sex are to separate things. Does God say that, please quote HIM.
This is a clear ayat proving "marriage is not sex, and sex is not marriage". There are differences between the two words.
And lawful to you are beyond these
you seek them
with your property
desiring chastity
NOT unlawful SEXual intercourse <- sex is not marriage, marriage is not sex
(424)Secondly,
What is it talking about according to you? What does show in the aya that sex could be a distinct thing for marriage and that you could have sex but not give ujur and have it secret? Precisely what it is doing is not stating that you are making a contract but hat the thingW, in itself, to God's law is the contract, when you take a woman it is always before God, it is not on His back or IN SECRET. You are taking an undertaking. God is nto saying you need so and so and formalise so and so, it is saying that those women are allowed BY HIM to you if you do so and so. Obviously it is talking about sex. Or if you take it that it is not talking about sex, about what is it talking, it does not say marriage at all. There is no escape form it. When you engage in sex with a women, you are engaging with a women, full stop.
So based on this one ayat that are explaining "how and when to select slave girls for wife" or the punishment for a "slave girls committing adultery", you are making a conclusion that the whole ayats in the Qur'an are mentioning "sex is marriage, and marriage is sex"? Allah is only speaking about sex?
How can that be? nope
The following is the ayat you are referring to, which I still cannot understand how it is supporting your argument that the context of the ayat is explaining "marriage is sex, and sex is marriage". It is totally irrelevant to your conclusion.
Please refer to the ayat and explain.
Topic Permission to marry Slave Girls
And whoever among you
cannot the means to marry FREE (not slave), believing women <- FIRST CONDITIONthen <- PERMISSION TO MARRY SLAVE GIRLS,
from those whom your right hands possess <- condition (1)
of believing SLAVE GIRLS
And Allah is most knowing about your faith
You are of one another
So marry them <- CONTINUANCE OF PERMISSION (from above)
with the permission of their people <- condition (2)
and give them their due compensation <- condition (3)
according to what is acceptable <- condition (4)
chaste <- condition (5) - cannot marry slave girls!!!
neither those who commit unlawful intercourse randomly <- sub-condition (5) - (a)
nor those who take lovers <- sub-condition (5) - (b)
But once they are sheltered in marriage <- SECOND SITUATION/ new condition
if they should commit adultery <- if the "slave girls" commit an offence
then for them is half the punishment for free women
This is for him among you who fears sinbut to be patient is better for you <- GENERAL RULE, the above is an exception.
And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful (don't marry slave girls, marry free girls)Allah wants to make clear to you <- reason for the above rules.
and guide you to the practices of those before you Is explaining marriage is sex, sex is marriage?
and to accept your repentance
And Allah is Knowing and Wise(425-26)
It is clear that Allah is explaining "the practice of marrying slave girls", when, who, what, how it is allowed and prohibited. Allah is explaining "how to select slave girls for wife". Allah has prohibited to marry "slave girl that commit unlawful intercourse randomly or who take lovers". Allah is not explaining about sex, or "marriage is sex, and sex is marriage".
Please explain how the above ayat is explaining your conclusion that "marriage is sex, and sex is marriage". hmm
Peace
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You are trying to prove your conclusion basing it on your conlusion. Do you mean to say that according to God's law sex can be separated from marriage? That is, that according to his law a sexual relationship is not marriage? Precisely what the Qur'an is telling believing men and women is that if they want to seprate sex from marriage they SHOULD NOT. That is it, God is pointing to the trick of making sex independent of marriage and condemns it and forbids it. So you may make a difference and separate both but that is precisely what God is forbidding, absolutely forbidding.Of course, God knows that human disbelief does that, but that is precisely what He forbids.
You are wasting your time trying to show me that sex and marriage are two different things. For whom are they different? For evil doers. For believers they are not. That is what God is making clear in the Qur'an.
So yoy think that because you do nto take seriously a sexual relationship God does not take it seriously? No He is telling you that you cannot do that. What is so difficult to understand in it. That doisbelievers and znis want to keep up their conventions of sex for use and throw and sex for social standing? That is human law, not God's law. That is desecration of wombs and desecration of people's most intimate and creative relationship, a sacred relationship. If you desecrate, does it means that for Gods stops being sacred?
Do you think that if you have a sexual relationship with your mother but do not marry her you are not trespassing on God's law?
Salaam
Salaam
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Salam huruf,
Do you mean to say that according to God's law sex can be separated from marriage?
REFER HERE
http//s23.postimg.org/6v0clr24r/marriage.png
- take note the status of father-in-law and mother-in-law is much like your own father and mother. There are not party to the contract of marriage but equally affected by marriages. Is the Qur'an or INSTITUTION of marriage is all about sex? (ie. as per your argument that sex is marriage and marriage is sex) (3349), (2236-237), (55), (243) and (2233).
and in conclusion, I'm quoting your statement..
REFER HERE
That is the Qur'an. If youa re talking about something else then there is no reason to discuss anything. You can have whatever you want, but not form the Qur'an.
Peace peace
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You are trying to prove your conclusion basing it on your conlusion. Do you mean to say that according to God's law sex can be separated from marriage? That is, that according to his law a sexual relationship is not marriage? Precisely what the Qur'an is telling believing men and women is that if they want to seprate sex from marriage they SHOULD NOT. That is it, God is pointing to the trick of making sex independent of marriage and condemns it and forbids it. So you may make a difference and separate both but that is precisely what God is forbidding, absolutely forbidding.Of course, God knows that human disbelief does that, but that is precisely what He forbids.
You are wasting your time trying to show me that sex and marriage are two different things. For whom are they different? For evil doers. For believers they are not. That is what God is making clear in the Qur'an.
So yoy think that because you do nto take seriously a sexual relationship God does not take it seriously? No He is telling you that you cannot do that. What is so difficult to understand in it. That doisbelievers and znis want to keep up their conventions of sex for use and throw and sex for social standing? That is human law, not God's law. That is desecration of wombs and desecration of people's most intimate and creative relationship, a sacred relationship. If you desecrate, does it means that for Gods stops being sacred?
Do you think that if you have a sexual relationship with your mother but do not marry her you are not trespassing on God's law?
Salaam
Salaam
So are you saying that as long as a gay couple have had sex and are faithful and committed to each other then they are to be considered married since sex and marriage are the same?
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All the time I have been talking about the Qur'an, not about anything else, and I have also made aboundantly clear that the Qur'an does not give any command or injunciton regarding sex-marriage except between a woman and a man. It contains no injunctions regarding sex-marriage except in that composition, not any other mixtures.
So no, sex is marriage between a woman and a man, between anything else the Qur'an as far as I recall does not say nor provides for nor do I see any reason why it should. Sex other than between woman and man does not respond to any overriding need of any society. Sex between man an woman is an overriding need for the perpetuation of the species and of any society, but sex between anything else is of no consequence for society, so it is not important nor conditions that society. It may be important for an individual but for society it is absolutely meaningless. However, sex betwen men and women is fundamental and and therefore merits that God establishes clearly what the stakes are and all the obligations that derive from that.
Salaam
Salaam
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All the time I have been talking about the Qur'an, not about anything else, and I have also made aboundantly clear that the Qur'an does not give any command or injunciton regarding sex-marriage except between a woman and a man. It contains no injunctions regarding sex-marriage except in that composition, not any other mixtures.
So no, sex is marriage between a woman and a man, between anything else the Qur'an as far as I recall does not say nor provides for nor do I see any reason why it should. Sex other than between woman and man does not respond to any overriding need of any society. Sex between man an woman is an overriding need for the perpetuation of the species and of any society, but sex between anything else is of no consequence for society, so it is not important nor conditions that society. It may be important for an individual but for society it is absolutely meaningless. However, sex betwen men and women is fundamental and and therefore merits that God establishes clearly what the stakes are and all the obligations that derive from that.
Salaam
Salaam
Ok well said. Thanks.
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All the time I have been talking about the Qur'an, not about anything else, and I have also made aboundantly clear that the Qur'an does not give any command or injunciton regarding sex-marriage except between a woman and a man. It contains no injunctions regarding sex-marriage except in that composition, not any other mixtures.
So no, sex is marriage between a woman and a man, between anything else the Qur'an as far as I recall does not say nor provides for nor do I see any reason why it should. Sex other than between woman and man does not respond to any overriding need of any society. Sex between man an woman is an overriding need for the perpetuation of the species and of any society, but sex between anything else is of no consequence for society, so it is not important nor conditions that society. It may be important for an individual but for society it is absolutely meaningless. However, sex betwen men and women is fundamental and and therefore merits that God establishes clearly what the stakes are and all the obligations that derive from that.
4.25 ...and give them (women) their dues with equity with their virtue, without impropriety nor taking them as secret partners...
?where do you see here a marriage as distinct from a sexual relationship?
RED is mine, inserted as premises.
Salam
The following is your conclusion and premises
Premise The Qur'an give command or injunciton regarding sex-marriage between a woman and a man. (comments)
Premise 4.25 ...and give them (women) their dues with equity with their virtue, without impropriety nor taking them as secret partners... (comments - fallacy)
Therefore Sex is marriage between a woman and a man (comments)
Marriage between a woman and a man is sex.The definition of sexual intercourse
sexual contact between individuals <- comments
involving penetrationesp. the insertion of a man's erect penis
into a woman's vagina
typically culminating in orgasm
and the ejaculation of semen("sexual contact involving penetration", ie. conduct, sexual conducts and not duty (deen) or institution)
Issue
According to the Qur'an etc., Prostitution is equally between a woman and a man, but it is not a marriage despite there is an engagement of sexual relations; ie. there is "penetration", and it is sexual intercourse.
So how can your theory explain this situation?
Is prostitution an institution of marriage?
Yes? No?
Which Ayat? Law? Dictionary?
Peace. peace
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Fare thee well,
Quran talks about normal relationships between man and woman and does not by any means even touch the area of homosexuality except perhaps the story of Lut. From logical deduction you can see that it is heterosexual marriages that are the standard. From a practical point of view the design of the sexes makes homosexual intercourse completely unproductive.
It seems to be innate in some individuals to be gay and nature itself is a testimony to that even but it is against the design. It is politically incorrect as someone said to say it might be a mental disorder and it is also difficult to know what goes on in the minds of these people too. Some people who were gay and forced themselves to live heterosexually often feel unhappy and it seems even if they try to make themselves get turned on by women they cannot.
It seems we have to accept that some people are homosexual and that they cannot be helped. It is difficult to cure someone on that mental level when you need to know exactly what goes on in the mind. Forcing them to be heterosexual will not help them and killing them is like killing something naturally occurring and thus no valid argument for it.
This topic is always intensively discussed and shows that it disturbs people.
God bless you
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RED is mine, inserted as premises.
Salam
The following is your conclusion and premises
Premise The Qur'an give command or injunciton regarding sex-marriage between a woman and a man. (comments)
Premise 4.25 ...and give them (women) their dues with equity with their virtue, without impropriety nor taking them as secret partners... (comments - fallacy)
Therefore Sex is marriage between a woman and a man (comments)
Marriage between a woman and a man is sex.The definition of sexual intercourse
sexual contact between individuals <- comments
involving penetrationesp. the insertion of a man's erect penis
into a woman's vagina
typically culminating in orgasm
and the ejaculation of semen("sexual contact involving penetration", ie. conduct, sexual conducts and not duty (deen) or institution)
Issue
According to the Qur'an etc., Prostitution is equally between a woman and a man, but it is not a marriage despite there is an engagement of sexual relations; ie. there is "penetration", and it is sexual intercourse.
So how can your theory explain this situation?
Is prostitution an institution of marriage?
Yes? No?
Which Ayat? Law? Dictionary?
Peace. peace
You do not get it. Too bad. God considers everything a marriage, it is men that refuse to acknowledge that they are acting outside the low God. Is that a reason for God to change the nature of the world He has created. If you marry a prostitute it is still marriage but YOU, YOU, YOU, YOU, not God, do nto consider it so. What is it so sacred about brutish lust that makes it impossible for people to grasp that what they do is not what God meant and that they are associating, yes associating when they erect their own conept of marriage instead of God's.
Salaam
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God considers everything a marriage
If you marry a prostitute it is still marriage but YOU, YOU, YOU, YOU, not God, do nto consider it so.
Sex = Marriage
Marriage = Sex
Therefore, there is only "Marriage"Therefore, "Sex" must be defined according to "Marriage" (God's Law). <- fallacy, refer comment
Is this your point? Okay, I got it.
Salam
So it is your own rules?
Can you show and prove with an ayat from the Qur'an that a sexual intercourse with a prostitute is the institution of marriage (any religion or laws)?
Secondly,
("sexual contact involving penetration", ie. conduct, sexual conducts and not duty (deen) or institution)
Can you prove from the Qur'an how a "sexual penetration" is in fact a contract of marriage?
Which one is referring to the pen, paper and the ink for signing the contract? yes
Peace.
p/s I wonder why people are easily offended when we are just asking questions for their conclusions. When we just asking for an explanation. Why making a conclusion if you cannot back up or supported it with valid facts and reasoning? Why need to feel insecure? hmm
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REFER HERE
- take note the status of father-in-law and mother-in-law is much like your own father and mother. There are not party to the contract of marriage but equally affected by marriages. Is the Qur'an or INSTITUTION of marriage is all about sex? (ie. as per your argument that sex is marriage and marriage is sex) (3349), (2236-237), (55), (243) and (2233).
Like the text hints at. We should separate contractees of marriage on one hand, and those affected by marriage on the other hand. Sex is not included with those that are just affected by marriage, like children, siblings and in-laws. The graphic could be misleading. Marriage may affect all what the graphic highlights, but it is not marriage as such. Marriage is a contract between two spouses.
I believe huruf wants to say that sex is a distinguishing characteristic of marriage (practical part/result/premission of the contract).
Sex is intimately connected to the constellation of marriage. Marriage gives permission to have sex. Sex is found in side marriage, but not outside. Having sex, therefore, is engaging in something which is part of marriage. Sex without marriage could perhaps then be seen as someone ripping a piece of marriage out of the whole, using it for temporary pleasure, and then throwing it away.... perhaps a bit like playing with someones feelings, for fun, and then just ditching that person like trash. It's like using something out of context (in the wrong context, for the wrong reasons) and then dumping it. -
Therefore Sex is marriage between a woman and a man (comments)
Marriage between a woman and a man is sex.Marriage is a man and a woman becoming husband and wife which is legal and public decency; lots of intercourses on various issues involving life goes between them before they decide to unite in their lives as partners to deal with their lives.
Sex is their private affair which they themselves engage in darkness and under cover; and to do it openly or talk of it plainly is not acceptable in a decent society.
The definition of sexual intercourse
sexual contact between individuals <- comments
involving penetrationesp. the insertion of a man's erect penis
into a woman's vagina
typically culminating in orgasm
and the ejaculation of semenNo. What you describe is sexual encounter!
Before becoming engaged in marriage as man and wife many an intercourse on matters of life and living as partners have got exchanged between them, heart to heart. Their relations is soulful intercourse; physical intercourse between them again has love and affection and care would be predominant and of paramount importance to them. As a result of this lust shall not play a lead role there. This is the reason why a married woman and man would avoid talk or explicit narration on sex between them. Any decent married couple of orthodox nature do not find as admissible to their hearts such private subject to be spoken out publicly.
Which Ayat? Law? Dictionary denies this!
Peace.
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Salam
This is much of the issue of confusing the "Causation" with "Association".
Human beings have an inherent tendency to "see" events associated or that "go together" as "events that cause one another"; ie. they conclude that because characteristic X (smoking) is associated with characteristic Y (death), that X therefore causes Y (death). Whereas someone may also die because of taking too much sugar (hyperinsulinism), no exercise or else.
Similarly, because of "SEX" is associated with "MARRIAGE" therefore "SEX" causes "MARRIAGE".
When we think this way, we are, however, often very wrong.
Association or correlation does not prove CAUSATION!
Sex = Penetration = Sexual Conducts
Marriage = Contract = Duty = Deen
Her argument = Sexual penetration = Duty (deen) to wife, children and relatives etc.
Therefore the issue is what causes marriage?
It is quite absurd to make a conclusion that it is all about sex, the sole determination factor! yes
Peace
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Salam
The word, 'Sex' is two gentle and constructively opposing genders designed as a set of unity, for the minds to become solemn and neutral. Lust and desire removed is sexual relation or intercourse of unifying the opposing genders. Marriage is solemn oath to live up to the expectation of the One, who created and ordained upon a community, such dignified relationship without talk of sexual intimacy between its men and women.
Peace.
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Salam
Situation 1 Sex is not equal to marriage
This is a clear ayat proving "marriage is not sex, and sex is not marriage". There are differences between the two words.
And lawful to you are beyond these
you seek them
with your property
desiring chastity
NOT unlawful SEXual intercourse <- sex is not marriage
(424)Situation 2 There are marriages, with or without Sex
O You who have believed
when you marry believing women
and then divorce them <- marriage
before you have touched them <- no sex
then there is not for you any waiting period to count concerning them
So provide for them and give them a gracious release
(3349)Other references
(3349), (2236-237), (55), (243) and (2233).
Therefore, sex is not the "causation" of "marriage".
Sex is not marriage.
Peace
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Salam
O You who have believed
when you marry believing women
and then divorce them <- marriage
before you have touched them <- no sex
then there is not for you any waiting period to count concerning them
So provide for them and give them a gracious release
(3349)Therefore, sex is not the "causation" of "marriage".
Sex is not marriage.
Peace
Peace,
What is that waiting period connected to?
salam.