3 times Salat (2+1) in Qur'an, 2 page PDF with Color Charts.
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Actually most Muslims consider there to be 5 prayers . . . everyone cannot start inventing their own times.
2 prayers is based on mistakes. There are 5 prayers and history tells us there have been 5 prayers. .
I don't know before if you're a Sunni.
When I study hadith, I got this points
-Hadith is failed to give proper definition for some terms, example Most muslim keep said Subuh while salat taken place at dawn.
-Hadith contains some difficult Arabic format, more difficult to translated rather than Quran.So it's not easy to create proper phrases for hadith translation.
When translators don't understand a difficult word within hadith, then they rely on a bunch of tafseer encyclopedias by some mufassir who lived in 11th - 14th centuries, long time after the death of Nabi Muhammad.So it's funny Hadith claimed to be as tafseer of the Quran.
To understand this tafseer book we even need mufassir, yay
but when mufassir stuck on single word or verse then they need another mufassir to understand it. rotfl
All the mufassir lived long time after death of Nabi confusedA tafseer book but need another tafseer book to understand it rotfl
Is this kind of methods authorized by Nabi?? This is how the Holy Quran hijacked??Peace
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Have you read the article? It does not "smash" the 5 salat myth. . . and is consistent with Muslim version of events.
Yes it is consistent of learned Muslim version of events, but not your version that you stated.
If you want to be accurate, your former statement of "Actually most Muslims consider there to be 5 prayers . . . everyone cannot start inventing their own times.
2 prayers is based on mistakes. There are 5 prayers and history tells us there have been 5 prayers."
Should read
Actually most Muslims consider there to be 5 prayers now . . . everyone cannot start inventing their own times or reverting back to what the early Muslims did.
2 prayers now is based on mistakes in my view. There are 5 prayers after the alleged isra & miraj (night journey and ascension story) and history tells us there have been 5 prayers AFTER the isra & miraj. Before that, there was 2 or maybe 3.
Note the great difference (bold and underlined) between what you said and what actually is the case according to your very own Traditional Islamic history. If you had said that, I'd have no problem with it.
The fact is the vast majority of Muslims do not know this was the case. I'd estimate 98+%.
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Peace The Chimp
Please provide the three missing names, ZUHR, ASR, and MAGHRIB, of the SALAT from the Quran, And I am sure you CANNOT, and then in that case
Wert thou to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture they do nothing but lie. (Al-An'aam 116)
Thanks
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Actually most Muslims consider there to be 5 prayers . . . everyone cannot start inventing their own times.
2 prayers is based on mistakes. There are 5 prayers and history tells us there have been 5 prayers.
Same history which conveyed the Quran and Arabic . . . which you are FORCED to accept.
That the majority do something is NOT a proof of its truthfulness. In fact, according to Quran the majority will be disbelievers. Even hadiths says that only one out of 1000 is righteous who is saved (although I dont support legitimacy of hadith). So you need to try to come up with some better argument than "most Muslims do", as it speaks against your point actually. Peace.
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Yes it is consistent of learned Muslim version of events, but not your version that you stated.
Learned? What does that mean? Please look at what I said. . . it is consistent with Sunni Muslim version of events. And what is the version of events that I have stated?
I state nothing other than the Sunni version of events.
Actually most Muslims consider there to be 5 prayers now . . . everyone cannot start inventing their own times or reverting back to what the early Muslims did.
This is simply your bias and nothing more. Earlier Muslims did NOT pray 2 prayers - neither that particular document nor Muslims sources state this.
Note the great difference (bold and underlined) between what you said and what actually is the case according to your very own Traditional Islamic history. If you had said that, I'd have no problem with it.
The fact is the vast majority of Muslims do not know this was the case. I'd estimate 98+%.
Incorrect. Sunni Muslim story of how Salat came to being is pretty well know. As you state - you have nothing besides your own bias and er . . . "estimates".
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Peace The Chimp
Please provide the three missing names, ZUHR, ASR, and MAGHRIB, of the SALAT from the Quran, And I am sure you CANNOT, and then in that case
Wert thou to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture they do nothing but lie. (Al-An'aam 116)
Thanks
Quran 2458
O you who have believed, let those whom your right hands possess and those who have not reached puberty among you ask permission of you at three times before the dawn prayer and when you put aside your clothing at noon and after the night prayer. three times of privacy for you. There is no blame upon you nor upon them beyond these , for they continually circulate among you - some of you, among others. Thus does Allah make clear to you the verses; and Allah is Knowing and Wise.
Quran 2238
Maintain with care the prayers and the middle prayer and stand before Allah , devoutly obedient.
Quran 1778
Establish prayer at the decline of the sun until the darkness of the night and the Qur'an of dawn. Indeed, the recitation of dawn is ever witnessed.
Asr -
Quran 11114
And establish prayer at the two ends of the day and at the approach of the night. Indeed, good deeds do away with misdeeds. That is a reminder for those who remember.
Maghrib
Approach of the night is not the night - neither it is middle of the day nor is it at the decline of the sun.
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That the majority do something is NOT a proof of its truthfulness.
Nope it isn't. However - we are not just talking about anonymous mass of people . . . . but within it are highly qualified scholars . . . one can reel name after name. And this continues to this day . . . A qualified opinion is something else against an unqualified opinion.
So . . . over the years scholar after scholar . . .
In fact, according to Quran the majority will be disbelievers.
I have no idea what this means . . . and you have not referenced it either.
Are you saying - that for 1500 years most who have claimed to be Muslims are Kafirs ?
Even hadiths says that only one out of 1000 is righteous who is saved (although I dont support legitimacy of hadith).
Again - unreferenced . . .
So you need to try to come up with some better argument than "most Muslims do", as it speaks against your point actually.
Most Muslims do - is neither end all or beginning of my argument. Nor an accurate version of it.
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I don't know before if you're a Sunni.
When I study hadith, I got this points
-Hadith is failed to give proper definition for some terms, example Most muslim keep said Subuh while salat taken place at dawn.
-Hadith contains some difficult Arabic format, more difficult to translated rather than Quran.So it's not easy to create proper phrases for hadith translation.
When translators don't understand a difficult word within hadith, then they rely on a bunch of tafseer encyclopedias by some mufassir who lived in 11th - 14th centuries, long time after the death of Nabi Muhammad.So it's funny Hadith claimed to be as tafseer of the Quran.
To understand this tafseer book we even need mufassir, yay
but when mufassir stuck on single word or verse then they need another mufassir to understand it. rotfl
All the mufassir lived long time after death of Nabi confusedA tafseer book but need another tafseer book to understand it rotfl
Is this kind of methods authorized by Nabi?? This is how the Holy Quran hijacked??Peace
I do not wish to be rude to you . . . or anyone! However when you says
-Hadith is failed to give proper definition for some terms, example Most muslim keep said Subuh while salat taken place at dawn.
-Hadith contains some difficult Arabic format, more difficult to translated rather than Quran.So it's not easy to create proper phrases for hadith translation.
When translators don't understand a difficult word within hadith, then they rely on a bunch of tafseer encyclopedias by some mufassir who lived in 11th - 14th centuries, long time after the death of Nabi Muhammad.I do not believe you at all. What is the level of your Arabic?
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The chimp,
Please note that lying or deceiving forum members may be in breach of forum rules.
I request clarification/evidence for your two statements below
This is simply your bias and nothing more. Earlier Muslims did NOT pray 2 prayers - neither that particular document nor Muslims sources state this.
Incorrect. Sunni Muslim story of how Salat came to being is pretty well know. As you state - you have nothing besides your own bias and er . . . "estimates".
You are requested to be specific.
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Peace The Chimp
I had asked the name of prayers from the Quran and you failed. Show me Salat as zuhur, Salat as Asr and Salat al Maghrib in the Quran. Otherwise these are all invented names. You are following nothing but conjectures.
Regarding Salat all Wusta please explain me how to guard it along with the other Salats.? This particular question remains unanswered for more than 1400 years. Allah guards the Quran, men and women guard their private parts in that context we should guard the 2/3/5 Salats plus the Salat all Wusta., HOW?
According to Muslims prayer means re citations from the Quran and preferably in congregation' but have they considered the Salat of Moses without TORAH and the Salat of Zachariah without any revealed book. WHAT WAS
THEIR PRAYER? Whatever we have i nherited is nothing but conjectures and nothing can be such substantiated by quran.Ritual prayer is nothing except nonsense inclsive of ups and downs.
At the end of the Salat to whom you are sending the greetings? To three or more angels/people?
To whom you are testifying Laa ilaahaa Illallaa muhammadur rasulullah, to Allah? Even if you testify to Allah then it should be like this Laa ilaahaa illallah muhammadur RASULAKA
Actually you are testifying to someone else that there is no deity except Allah and Muhammad is HIS messenger.
Is there any logic in testifying to an unknown entity that That there is no deity except Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah? My question is Did Allah commanded you to testify this conjecture?
What you are following is Hadith the foundation of all conjectures.
May Allah bless you
Thanks
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I do not believe you at all. What is the level of your Arabic?
My Arabic level is simply not too good, but I think it still can be used for intepetate Quran.
Just try to translate hadith yourself, you will know it later
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My Arabic level is simply not too good, but I think it still can be used for intepetate Quran.
Just try to translate hadith yourself, you will know it later
Right . . . so you do not know much. I was right. Try not to post BS please! And then caught out. What waste of time that was.
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Peace The Chimp
I had asked the name of prayers from the Quran and you failed. Show me Salat as zuhur, Salat as Asr and Salat al Maghrib in the Quran. Otherwise these are all invented names. You are following nothing but conjectures.
Regarding Salat all Wusta please explain me how to guard it along with the other Salats.? This particular question remains unanswered for more than 1400 years. Allah guards the Quran, men and women guard their private parts in that context we should guard the 2/3/5 Salats plus the Salat all Wusta., HOW?
According to Muslims prayer means re citations from the Quran and preferably in congregation' but have they considered the Salat of Moses without TORAH and the Salat of Zachariah without any revealed book. WHAT WAS
THEIR PRAYER? Whatever we have i nherited is nothing but conjectures and nothing can be such substantiated by quran.Ritual prayer is nothing except nonsense inclsive of ups and downs.
At the end of the Salat to whom you are sending the greetings? To three or more angels/people?
To whom you are testifying Laa ilaahaa Illallaa muhammadur rasulullah, to Allah? Even if you testify to Allah then it should be like this Laa ilaahaa illallah muhammadur RASULAKA
Actually you are testifying to someone else that there is no deity except Allah and Muhammad is HIS messenger.
Is there any logic in testifying to an unknown entity that That there is no deity except Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah? My question is Did Allah commanded you to testify this conjecture?
What you are following is Hadith the foundation of all conjectures.
May Allah bless you
Thanks
I had asked the name of prayers from the Quran and you failed. Show me Salat as zuhur, Salat as Asr and Salat al Maghrib in the Quran. Otherwise these are all invented names. You are following nothing but conjectures.
You are being dishonest. . . I have given you references from Quran for all 5 prayers . . . counter that? No. Simply saying I have failed is complete nonsense. It simply highlights that you are dogmatic . . . unable to counter yet still going along with your previous view.
Regarding Salat all Wusta please explain me how to guard it along with the other Salats.? This particular question remains unanswered for more than 1400 years. Allah guards the Quran, men and women guard their private parts in that context we should guard the 2/3/5 Salats plus the Salat all Wusta., HOW?
See - now you are going completely off topic.
No, no and no.
Go back and answer what is being put to you. . .
I have given you references for full 5 prayers.
This is the problem with "Quran-only" . . . you are severly mistaken ridden and your private little cocoon. And what do you do? Make up things . . . just as you wish!
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The chimp,
Please note that lying or deceiving forum members may be in breach of forum rules.
I request clarification/evidence for your two statements below
You are requested to be specific.
Please note that lying or deceiving forum members may be in breach of forum rules.
So are such threats just for me . . . ? One case of where I have lied or deceived? If no . . . then why the specific threat?
Unfortunately for the chimp this article smashes the 5 salat myth, and it's all based on Traditional Islamic sources
This is what you said earlier . . . no it didn't. That article did NOT smash any 5 salat myth. I asked you how? Or have you even bothered to read it. No response.
Incorrect. Sunni Muslim story of how Salat came to being is pretty well know. As you state - you have nothing besides your own bias and er . . . "estimates".
This is NOT how it works . . . the original "estimate" is yours . . . and so is the claim. . . you made a claim for which you proceeded to give no evidence. Try looking up "Burden of Proof".
This is simply your bias and nothing more. Earlier Muslims did NOT pray 2 prayers - neither that particular document nor Muslims sources state this.
Read you own document! You posted the link! You are the who stated
Unfortunately for the chimp this article smashes the 5 salat myth, and it's all based on Traditional Islamic sources
No it does NOT.
Were you lying or deceiving when you made the claim . . . ?
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Peace The Chimp
I did not ask for the verses but the names of the. Prayers "Salat as zuher' Salat al as and Salat all maghrib"
These names are not in the Quran and it was invented by your esteemed hadith writers. You are following Bukhai and
Co. and not Quran. There are only two Salat mentioned by name in the Quran and the rest is found in the books of idiot Bukhari.
So what you follow Quran of Allah or nonsense books of Bukhari and co.
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Peace The Chimp
I did not ask for the verses but the names of the. Prayers "Salat as zuher' Salat al as and Salat all maghrib"
These names are not in the Quran and it was invented by your esteemed hadith writers. You are following Bukhai and
Co. and not Quran. There are only two Salat mentioned by name in the Quran and the rest is found in the books of idiot Bukhari.
So what you follow Quran of Allah or nonsense books of Bukhari and co.
"it was invented by your esteemed hadith writers"
No it wasn't. Else evidence? Proof?
The question is about number of prayers . . . and they are 5. I have given the verses for that. Quran mentions 3 by name . . . and gives 2 additional names.
Asr and Magrib are adequate names . . . as they match the times indicated.
Asr is for afternoon
Maghrib the sun going down towards complete darkness.
You are following Bukhai and
Co. and not Quran.
How so? The times for 5 prayers are from Quran . . so how is that following Bukhari and co.
There are only two Salat mentioned by name in the Quran and the rest is found in the books of idiot Bukhari.
And you are wrong . . . there are 3 names mentioned in the Quran attached as adjectives to the word Salat
Fajr - Wusta - Isha and there are 2 additional times mentioned also.
It is quite apparent you haven't bothered to read what I have replied . . . but are so dogmatic that without bothering . . . you are posting false accusations.
Quaint!
Please quit the nonsense . . . and READ!
= = =
So what you follow Quran of Allah or nonsense books of Bukhari and co.
What you follow is . . . ? Nonsense? I have easily given verses where the times of prayers from Quran . . . so your accusation are completely wrong.
And how is it that you are able to read Arabic at all? Who teaches you that? If it wasn't from book of he elders . . .
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the chimp,
The "threat" (as you put it) is for anyone who may be in breach of forum rules. It just so happens that in this case, it is you who I directed my statement to.
So, let us review
You said
This is simply your bias and nothing more. Earlier Muslims did NOT pray 2 prayers - neither that particular document nor Muslims sources state this.
A quote from the article I linked to, opening sentence
Western scholars have already noticed that according to Muslim sources, before the five daily prayers became part of the "pillars" of Islam, the Muslims used to pray only twice a day.The above is clear, thus if your position is to deny the article makes such a claim, or it is false, then please provide evidence/reason as to support your claim. You have provided no evidence whatsoever.
You said
Incorrect. Sunni Muslim story of how Salat came to being is pretty well know. As you state - you have nothing besides your own bias and er . . . "estimates".
The above clearly implies what I said/implied was incorrect, but again you provide no evidence whatsoever to counter what I said.
Here is what Ibn Kathir's tafsir states from HERE
(and glorify the praises of your Lord, before the rising of the sun and before (its) setting.) There were two ordained prayers prior to the Isra' journey. One before the rising of the sun at dawn and the other before sunset in the evening. Qiyam Al-Layl, prayer at night, was a command for the Prophet and his followers for sometime but it was later abrogated for the Ummah. Later, during the Isra' journey, Allah abrogated all of the previous orders for prayer by ordaining five daily prayers, including the prayers of Fajr before sunrise, and `Asr in the late afternoon.It is blatantly obvious, Traditional Islamic sources state there were 2 salat daily (or perhaps 3), prior to 5, thus to say otherwise after the above is shown to someone, they must be either lying or intentionally deceiving forum members.
Over to you.
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The "threat" (as you put it) is for anyone who may be in breach of forum rules. It just so happens that in this case, it is you who I directed my statement to.
Yes . . .and why was I singled out for the honour? Given as it clear I am in opposition to you - to the extent I do not see anyone else here? It is a cheap underhand blow . . . and quite nasty.
The above is clear, thus if your position is to deny the article makes such a claim, or it is false, then please provide evidence/reason as to support your claim. You have provided no evidence whatsoever.
Yes . . . read what it says
"Western scholars have already noticed that according to Muslim sources, before the five daily prayers became part of the "pillars" of Islam, the Muslims used to pray only twice a day."
And the next sentence begins
Goldziher states that "before the duty of prayer was extended to five times a day, the Muslims are said to have observed only two canonical times of prayer morning and afternoon . . . 1
So how does this state that the earlier Muslims used 2 pray twice? How is this any different from Sunni narrative? It is we who hold - Salah, Quran, Hajj, Sawm, Adhaan all took time to establish. . . and it is well recorded that Prophet Muhammad used to pray even before he received Prophet-hood and remained somewhat aloof. Your claim was that this is smashing the myth of 5 prayers. . . . how? The 5 prayers were established after the advent of Islam and then everyone prayed five.
Your own source disagrees with the claim you made.
The above clearly implies what I said/implied was incorrect, but again you provide no evidence whatsoever to counter what I said.
Yes - and the original claim is yours . . . with it comes NO EVIDENCE . . . so why should I counter with evidence? How can you ask me to provide evidence . . . when your original claim lacks it? It is your duty to provide evidence for the claims you have made.
It is blatantly obvious, Traditional Islamic sources state there were 2 salat daily (or perhaps 3), prior to 5, thus to say otherwise after the above is shown to someone, they must be either lying or intentionally deceiving forum members.
And this in no way er . . .
Unfortunately for the chimp this article smashes the 5 salat myth, and it's all based on Traditional Islamic sources
No. It does NOT smash the myth of 5 prayers! Else how?
And remember this is the 1st reply back to you
Have you read the article? It does not "smash" the 5 salat myth. . . and is consistent with Muslim version of events.
And what astound me even more is this
(and glorify the praises of your Lord, before the rising of the sun and before (its) setting.) There were two ordained prayers prior to the Isra' journey. One before the rising of the sun at dawn and the other before sunset in the evening. Qiyam Al-Layl, prayer at night, was a command for the Prophet and his followers for sometime but it was later abrogated for the Ummah. Later, during the Isra' journey, Allah abrogated all of the previous orders for prayer by ordaining five daily prayers, including the prayers of Fajr before sunrise, and `Asr in the late afternoon.
So - this is version of event from OUR BOOKS . . . which will clearly state that 5 prayers were established and everyone followed that . . . so when you mention this from books and then why try to claim this is unknown? Ibn Kathir is among the most popular Sunni Quran Scholiast there is.
So now explain . . . how is the myth of 5 prayers smashed?
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the chimp,
You said (highlight mine)
And the next sentence begins
Goldziher states that "before the duty of prayer was extended to five times a day, the Muslims are said to have observed only two canonical times of prayer morning and afternoon . . . 1
So how does this state that the earlier Muslims used 2 pray twice?
Assuming you understand what the English word "before" means, then it refers to BEFORE 5, ergo, BEFORE is EARLIER.
You then go on to say
The 5 prayers were established after the advent of Islam and then everyone prayed five.It seems you do not know English. The word "advent" means the arrival/emergence of a thing. Your own Traditional Islamic sources state 5-salat were established after the alleged "isra and miraj" story. Amusingly, your own Traditional Islamic history states there were many Quran revelations prior to chapter 17 (alleged isra and miraj event) yet you claim 5-salat were established after the advent of Islam. I guess Islam didn't exist prior to chapter 17 according to you. ;D
In any case, it seems you are incapable of expressing your view accurately, so let me see if I can help. This is what I think you seem to be saying prior to Quran revelation "muslims" prayed twice daily, then at some point during Quran revelation a 5-salat-daily was established.
Is this what you are trying to say?
You said
So now explain . . . how is the myth of 5 prayers smashed?
See reply 24 on this thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606027.msg342824#msg342824
It smashes the myth of 5 prayers because it clearly shows it was not always 5, and only was so after the alleged isra and miraj story, found in chapter 17.
As I said, if you had been accurate in your statements, and what they implied, I wouldn't have said anything.
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It seems you do not know English. The word "advent" means the arrival/emergence of a thing. Your own Traditional Islamic sources state 5-salat were established after the alleged "isra and miraj" story. Amusingly, your own Traditional Islamic history states there were many Quran revelations prior to chapter 17 (alleged isra and miraj event) yet you claim 5-salat were established after the advent of Islam. I guess Islam didn't exist prior to chapter 17 according to you.
If you are going to go down this petty road and be abusive and personal like the rest of your brethren . . . then what is the point? Did you make a funny there?
Now
Sunni Islam has always held that Quran and everything else took time to develop - and many facets took even longer. It is well known - Muslim law took several centuries to establish. I have already indicated that.
No - Islam came the day Prophet Muhammad received his 1st message. And at intervals certain things established. Salat - and then call to prayer . . . then came the order of Hajj. Quran took about 23 years . . . so your "funny" in light of this actually quite a silly proposition to make.
Might I suggest I would be more helpful if you stuck to honestly answering RATHER than attempting such feats of comedy.
In any case, it seems you are incapable of expressing your view accurately, so let me see if I can help. This is what I think you seem to be saying prior to Quran revelation "muslims" prayed twice daily, then at some point during Quran revelation a 5-salat-daily was established.
Incorrect - I am perfectly fine in expressing myself. Muslims prayed 2, thrice maybe more. But there was a time when set number of prayers were established. Yes - that is correct.
It smashes the myth of 5 prayers because it clearly shows it was not always 5, and only was so after the alleged isra and miraj story, found in chapter 17.
As I said, if you had been accurate in your statements, and what they implied, I wouldn't have said anything.
Yet - there is no "myth" that there were always 5! Five prayers came when it was established there were 5 prayers. And after that there were 5 prayers! This does not smash any "myths".
Look at you own statement
Unfortunately for the chimp this article smashes the 5 salat myth, and it's all based on Traditional Islamic sources
So based all on Sunni sources . . . it is smashing 5 prayer myth? But it didn't.
Ps - I am not reading pages and pages of past answers or whatnot. If you have anything to add . . . . quote! Else
That article did not smash any 5 prayer myths . . .
