She's Not Naked !!!
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Peace Leyna,
Do not you worry about him. He will have a difficult time at a later occasion.
God bless you
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Peace to all
The subject was about bikinis on the beach. A memeber even posted pictures on some male and female bikinis, the female bikinis seemed to be okay to wear but no comments regarding the male bikini.
Peace Habibullah,
My post regarding men in bikinis was an attempt to start a dialogue about modesty but no one would bite
Peace to all
Why would a pious man/woman g? to a place where almost all people are atleast half-naked? How do a believer feel when she/he knows there are disbelieving men/women having sexual fantasies about your respected person?You are taking a leap to assume that the half naked person is pious, I did not say that the half naked person
was modest or pious, I only stated that they have the right to go to the beach.Society has brainwashed people that it's okay to walk around half-naked to a place full with other half-naked people, people have been brainwashed do things and to look in a certain way that is not very natural. This is what we should fight against.
PeaceI would say that "brainwashing" would not be accurate because there is no coercive methods of indoctrination
used, and that freedom is better than oppression...those who want to go...go, those who do not want to go, don't go.Do I too have the need to say that I am all for womens rights only because I feel bikinis is a big no no for believing women? Am I an oppressor because I give believers the advice to stay away from the beach where disbelievers occupy the beach?
I think you have a valid point about giving advice, my point is that women have the right to accept or reject my
opinion as well as yours.God bless
peace
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Salam aleikum,
Let me make an introduction and after I'll speak about bikini, beach and dress code...
As I said in my first post I'm spaniard of pure european origin. My ancestors were crusaders knights at the battle of Navas de Tolosa (Al-Uqab battle in arabic) and I made my shahada two and a half years ago because I believe that there is only One God and that Muhammad is God's Messenger... therefore I believe that Quran is the God's Word. Regarding hadiths I believe that are human created tales. Anyway, if some people want to live according hadith I find it ok while they don't try to impose to everybody.
The battle of Navas de Tolosa / Al-Uqab was planned as a big crusade against sunni Al-Muwahiddun in Iberian Peninsula. The crusaders expedition met at the city of Toledo, in central Iberian Peninsula (Spain didn't exist yet) and were composed by iberian (spanish & portuguese) knights and french ones. When they avanced to the south they took some little villages inhabited by muslims, then the muslims qaids surrended and went to seek help from Al-Muwahiddun Jalifa Muhammad an Nansir, but the Jalifa ordered their execution accusing them of cowardice. At the same time the french crusaders started to kill the muslim population of the villages but the king Alfonso VIII of Castile ordered them to stop the slaughtering and don't kill the surrended people. The french threatened the king saying that if they were not allowed to kill the population of the villages, they would come back France. The king simply said them "just go" and 30.000 french knights came back France. The iberians crusaders finally invaded the south and defeated the sunnis Al-Muwahiddun.
My ancestors were on the vanguard and they came from Basque Country, that is a very matriarcal society with witch/amazon women from ancient times. One of the reasons because they left their homeland and went south was that their women were no good. The leader of the militar expedition was Diego L?pez de Haro and his wife was cheating him. When he ordered his son to attack and resist until victory or death he said him "People will can say to you that you are the son of a bitch but not the son of a coward" and they fight till victory, the most decisive victory of Middle Ages in Iberian Peninsula. Thay conquered Al-Andalus and because this my family stablished here in the south, that today is called Andalusia.
Cultural and ethnic background is important is some aspects of life and have influence over the way in that you see the relationship between sexes.
When I've read some statements of this thread I simply got perplexed.
The purpose of a dress code is protect the women of "bad men"? o
The men are abusive and the women not? rotfl
And all the rethoric about rapes, etc. yuckFake chivalry trying to afirm men domination and on the other side female victimism trying to afirm women domination... all is about feel "free", dominate another people, feel also powerful and take Shaytan's path. But remember that nor man neither woman is powerful, only Allah (SWT) is powerful.
All the crap about women have to be full covered for their protection from "bad men", etc. is a lie, as the whole garbage called chivalry is a very big lie.
The women have to dress honest for their protection of themselves (their ego, arrogance, narcissism and exhibitionism) and the stability of the whole society. The same for men. Freedom for humans have limitations and Quran or even common sense clarify it. Allah gave a Torah for hebrews (not only for jewish but for 12 tribes), gave us all Jesus as a Injil, a Living Word and gave us all the Quran through Rasul ul Lah Muhammad. But Allah gave us all a fitra, a common sense, the capacity for distinguish between good and bad, beutiful and ugly, armony and chaos.
Abusive and narcissistic attitudes are always in the path of selfishness and chaos, no matter men or women.
Regarding the bikini, she is not nude but she is neither and angel/malaika. Therefore, in a beach sometimes everybody look at the beautiful bodies (women also look at men) and like to be looked... for the women depending on the man that looks at her... if he's an old ugly man he's a pig but if he's a young handsome man he's cool. ;D
It doesn't means that you go to the beach in order to look the bodies but when you are hours at the beach, you look more or less depending on the day, the bodies, etc. Human beings are not angels and we have lust. If a woman say to me that she never liked to look men or to be look by them, then I will say that she prefers women and that's all folks. World is plenty of secret lesbians, some of them married with men and another strong men's haters.
Bikini is haram as same as short swimsuit for men is haram. Good dress is a dress that you can wear everywhere... imagine people at workplace in swimsuit.
Holy Quran is clear regarding modesty on dress but if somebody have a strong desire for do something that he/she knows is haram but cannot avoid to do it, it's better to say Astagfirullah and do the haram but don't think that he/she is acting halal... even worse if start to say to another people things like "nothing is haram, you are free, haram depending on everyone, etc.
For example, no married people sometimes have sexual intecourse, that is haram. Well, if you cannot avoid it... Astagfirullah but noway "oh, it's ok and haram depending on everyone conscience". This is a bad path, a path similar to some nihilistic mystic sects that want mystic with no law. That's a very big mistake, a good and pleasant walk where you fell powerful but with a bad end.
And Leyna, you have beautiful feets. jedi
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Peace Bismilah.
Thank you for your introduction.
The point some of us are trying to make
Can you go swimming in the sea ? What are the appropriate cloth/es you use?
Of course they are bad and ugly intentions at the beach! But there are also some decent people who want to go for sea air and a swim in the sea?
Does Qoran say swimming in the sea is "Haram"?
You talk about common sense in your post, let us use common sense then!
Wear what is comfortable for you to swim in,of course you consider modesty, but you are swimming, not shopping or at a social gathering.
Peace to you.
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I don't think that swimming in the sea is haram but I think it's better if you can go to a calm place in a river with friends of the same sex or wife and family if you're married. You have the forest, you are relax, you can swimm (careful with the river). A lonely beach is also ok, but this is so difficult in some countries.
If you are alone with your wife and sons/daughters I think that it's ok for everybody to be naked, that is the most comfortable. But outside the family the thing is different, problematic.
I know that lot of people go to the beach to take sun and a bath but even this decent people feel sexual atraction because we have this instinct. Anyway if man can wear shorts, woman can wear bikini in some familiar beaches... but even decent people in this places are going to experience some little temptations.
All this isn't the World's End but we have to take so much care with mystic path without law, that is for example the way of certain jewish sects that try to live Qabbalah without Halakha. This is also the way of modern western Counterculture that started in the 60's.
My own country was a very traditional one 30 years ago and nowadays is a crazy place where women and even adolescents only put a tanga in the beach and love top less and narcissistic exhibitionism, for lust and as a symbol of female power.
Counterculture is not about real freedom but about rebellion against laws, specially religious ones.
An essential part of Counterculture is Feminism, that is a hate movement. And this movement works because "traditional" men think stupid things like women are more emotional, good hearted, no violent, etc.
Feminists really hate men and are strong and dangerous Worldwide.
When arab men says things like men are phisically stronger they are right but they forget that men are also phisically weaker. Emotionally I'm not going to say who are more prone to manipulate...everybody know. Therefore men need to be protected by the Law from women just the same than the opposite.
The situation of western men, specially in countries like Spain or UK with an ancient tradition of witch/amazon women (ex. queen Boadicea) is very bad. Women can abuse men in all the ways and happens nothing. We have even laws that stablish that a man killing a woman have more prison years than a woman killing a man and even is habitual that a wife kill the husband and she don't go to jail. Women have all the rights and ever take the sons and daughters in divorce's case... and even she commited adultery, the husband have to pay money to her. Lot of women speak about the men using terms as garbage and are only interested in men as sexual partners, treating men like animal studs and another join the lesbian feminism and promote radical ideas of hate. Enterprises are forced by laws to take on women and lot of men are jobless... if you look at our cities the 90% of homeless people are men.
I know that salafism is wrong but if I would have to choose between salafism and feminism I would colaborate with the guy's team. jedi
And all this in my country started with the bikinis... in the 60s-70s foreign women of northern Europe came and start to wear bikinis... old women criticize them but a little number of young women started to imitate. Men acted like apes (oh, beautiful girls o) or like stupids (leftists talking about freedom, etc. >.
Therefore, the "innocent" bikini brought spanish men slavery.
Some people would say to me that men and women are a team, etc. In the West there are no more team between sexes, but a war and so much hate towards men.
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peace
Why are there so many men coming to this thread telling women how to dress and where to go or not to go? It's bizarre. I can't for the life of me imagine entering a discussion about men's swimming attire, passionately insisting men should dress a certain way, or stay out of the public space.
wow
I doubt that any of the women participating in or reading this thread is going to change their mind because of any of the arguments they are reading here.Those of you guys who feel that they are not capable of dealing with the temptation of seeing a woman in a bikini ? there's a simple solution. Just stay away from beaches and poolsides. You have absolutely no right to demand that we adjust our dress and behaviour based on your personal preferences, based on your male gaze. If you have a problem with women in bathing suits or short clothes that's just that ? your problem. Don't try to make it mine by shrouding your insecurities and inappropriate demands in phrases about religious obligation or social responsibility.
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Are you a man or a woman, mmmm? If you're male, why do you care what women wear on the beach?
I'm starting to think the bikini must really be something very dangerous and powerful if the mere mentioning of wearing it provokes so many emotional responses from men, so much fear and anger and hatred. Interesting.
hmm -
It seems that people don't know or intentionally ignore 2431 and 3359..and then bring conclusions based only on 726.
It is sad to see how many people are brainwashed by feminism, and are unaware of it...You did not answer my question.
I am not a supporter of bikini because it makes women seen as objects and disrespectful.
But you are only concerned about women's clothing only. Almost all your posts on this forum are in women's clothing threads. Is this what interests you?
You want women to wear burqa? -
but she want to wear a bikini but she thinks is haram
I think maybe many are objecting because the question of this thread clearly relating to the issue of whether it is "halal" or "haram".... and there is nothing mentioned based on other values, eg. freedom of way of life, equality etc.
However if the question is related to the value of freedom, wear it. If one wants to be naked, then do it.. be naked (5.105). They are free to do that and should be respected for their choice as long it did not directly harm the society. No one from the society can stop them, and no one can make them to be a Believer.
And had your Lord willed
those on earth would have believed
all of them entirely
Then, would you compel the people in order that they become believers?
(10.99)They are FREE to do what they want, but they are NOT FREE to claim it is from Allah. This is ridiculous, to align and validate all their desires using Allah's name. This is nothing about freedom, but about distorting the Quran for the gratification of their "ego and self esteem" relating to other values of life. They need more exercise for mental strength.
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The point some of us are trying to make
Can you go swimming in the sea ? What are the appropriate cloth/es you use?
Q Can you go swimming in the sea ?
A Yes, make sure it's safe for you to do so. Make sure you can swim, there's no shark, jellyfish, no strong current etc..
Q What are the appropriate cloth/es you use?
A Up to you, make sure it's safe for you and you follow the LOCAL CUSTOM/TRADITION (if the swimming area is crowded with people) if nude is safe then go nude..If you like traditional diving and "diving in nude" then go to Japan and learn few tips from this people.
Ama Divers, Traditional Japanese Divers (Read Ama means "Women of the Sea"
http//gakuran.com/ama-the-pearl-diving-mermaids-of-japan/Note Is there anyone here who would label the Ama as "Immoral people"?
Salam / Peace
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peace
Why are there so many men coming to this thread telling women how to dress and where to go or not to go? It's bizarre. I can't for the life of me imagine entering a discussion about men's swimming attire, passionately insisting men should dress a certain way, or stay out of the public space.
wow
I doubt that any of the women participating in or reading this thread is going to change their mind because of any of the arguments they are reading here.Those of you guys who feel that they are not capable of dealing with the temptation of seeing a woman in a bikini ? there's a simple solution. Just stay away from beaches and poolsides. You have absolutely no right to demand that we adjust our dress and behaviour based on your personal preferences, based on your male gaze. If you have a problem with women in bathing suits or short clothes that's just that ? your problem. Don't try to make it mine by shrouding your insecurities and inappropriate demands in phrases about religious obligation or social responsibility.
Peace Leyna,
You are aware that Free-minds is a discussion/debate forum and has a non-discrimination policy
and all are welcome to participate and are not to be excluded from discussion/debate based on race,
gender , national origin, religious affiliation etc.,God bless
peace
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Peace Jafar.
Interesting brother. Do you go there often?
I might join you on your next trip, to take a look at these mermaids and admire their skill.
As always you bring a good and valid point.
Peace to you
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Of course they are free to claim it's from God, and they are doing so. There's nothing you can do to take this freedom away.
"Freedom" in terms of the rules in the Quran..
Allah only gave them freedom to live the life they choose, and no one should interfere... It is personal.
BUT Allah does not give them freedom to claim it is from Allah.
Do you have verse to support your conclusion?
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Peace Jafar.
Interesting brother. Do you go there often?
I might join you on your next trip, to take a look at these mermaids and admire their skill.
As always you bring a good and valid point.
Peace to you
Only once... if you book the travel through tour agent and expecting to see the Ama to dive in nudity then the travel shall fell short of your expectation.
The Ama (or Japanese in general) is a very kind and tolerant people.
The Ama are aware that among the foreign tourist there are those who felt that "they're highly civilized due to their clothing style as told by their holy book" and their 'traditional diving suit' might fell short of 'the foreigners highly civilized and moral standard'.
Thus to avoid either being labeled as 'immoral', 'pagan', 'uncivilized', 'must be converted this instant' or 'must be put to death', the Ama choose to adapt their 'tradition' to the 'tradition of the foreign tourist'. The Ama dive like this as part of tourist attraction.
http//www.japan-iwate.info/cgi_data/location/0071-01.jpg
Salam / Peace
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I admire the Japanese because they have great mental strength and very discipline, even to the extend of drinking tea. I can't imagine if they follow the proper rules of Islam, what kind of Believers they will be. Maybe someday I'll experience life with their monks in the temple, a year or two.. and learning how they see and value life. Becoming a Buddhist monk. laugh
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BUT Allah does not give them freedom to claim it is from Allah.
This is getting childish and ridiculous.
Going to the beach in a bikini is absolutely okay with Allah. http//foolstown.com/sm/rev.gif http//www.intercot.com/discussion/images/smilies/vacation.gif http//i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj184/befje/smileys%203/bth_bf-smileytire.gif http//www.troublefreepool.com/images/smilies/jason/smiley-sport038.gif sun
There, I said it. You believe God doesn't give me the freedom to do so, fine. That doesn't affect my opinion or the fact that you can't censor me. Salam.
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There, I said it. You believe God doesn't give me the freedom to do so, fine.
I think you have problem to understand the issue.. laugh
"Freedom" in terms of the rules in the Quran..
and... obviously you have no verse to support your conclusion.
Therefore, it is not from Allah.. .
It is from you.. your statement, your rule.
Therefore, you are not free to claim it is true from Allah. yes
You need more exercise.
p.s. even a madman can claim those are from Allah, then what difference does it make with those argument? laugh