Polygamy refutation (verse 4:3)

noshirk

Peace.

That's true. However, what do we do with this?

423 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your fathers sisters, and your mothers sisters, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your wives, and your step-daughters residing in your homes from your wives which you have already consummated the marriage with; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and the wives of your sons that are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful.

Salaam sister
I agree with huruf. It means probably one after the other.
the same time understanding clearly not apply, for example, for the "wives of your sons that are from your seed"

420 And if you wish to replace one wife with another, and you have given one of them a large amount, then do not take anything from it. Will you take it by falsehood while it is clearly a sin?

please note how this verse is speaking about replacing and not adding. It is only 3 verses before 4-23.

if we understand the verse 4-23 as an interdiction at the same time, then we have have to admit that quran oblige you to divorce the first sister before you marry the second.
We can also understand that we have to divorce a mother (so it is no more counted as wife) if you want to marry his daugher.
Please note however that nisaa (your women) is not same meaning as Azwaj (your wifes). Nisaa in 4-23 can also be applied to women living in your home (servants).

so if we read 4-23 as a kind of continuation of 4-20, then it speaks about totally forbidden "first" marriages and "replacing".

Peace

Released

Peace.

Makes sense, I agree with all of you. Perhaps, Free Minds should modify their prior stance on polygamy, or submit a new article??

Released

Peace.

New ideas that I've come across so far

4.3 definitely has nothing to do with polygamy
4.20 and 4.23 are in regard to replacing one wife for another, or one after another
3350 is exclusive to Muhammed
2432 refers to marrying single people---the norm
With all that having been said, there is no prohibition on polyandry or polygyny. We all know what prohibitive verses look like, and no such exist. People must conform to their circumstances.

Released

**none such exist

My grammar and spelling has gone to hell. >

The_Chimp

The verse 43 is about polygamy and it is permitted.

"And if you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry those that please you of women, two or three or four. "

You can hardly deny that this is about polygamy.

Verse 3350 is not exclusive to the Prophet Muhammad - that is simply based on a mistaken reading.

The_Chimp

salaam
it is very strange how discussion is turning.

My first post was on interpretation of words in 43

no one want to defend the theory that 43 is speaking about polygamy ?

Peace

The verse is about polygamy - for over 1000 years that is a how it has been understood - by Arabic experts and non-experts alike.

diamantinehoneybunch

The verse 43 is about polygamy and it is permitted.

"And if you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry those that please you of women, two or three or four. "

You can hardly deny that this is about polygamy.

Verse 3350 is not exclusive to the Prophet Muhammad - that is simply based on a mistaken reading.

Mistaken reading by your sexual desire to have sex with four concubines in "marriage"

It is to Mohammed only unless you are blind.

The_Chimp

Mistaken reading by your sexual desire to have sex with four concubines in "marriage"

It is to Mohammed only unless you are blind.

Try not to get abusive and answer on point

Mistaken reading by your sexual desire to have sex with four concubines in "marriage"

This comment in no way refutes what I have said . . . 43 quite clear permits a man to marry up to 4 wives. Making such comments just hihlights that do not have response to counter this. Hence - the pitiful personal remark.

Quran 3350

O Prophet, indeed We have made lawful to you your wives to whom you have given their due compensation and those your right hand possesses from what Allah has returned to you and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who emigrated with you
and a believing woman if she gives herself to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to marry her, only for you, excluding the believers.
We certainly know what We have made obligatory upon them concerning their wives and those their right hands possess, in order that there will be upon you no discomfort. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

Now - the longing passage I have highlighted ONLY that is for the Prophet Muhammad alone.

Released

Peace

Chimp,

What are the numbers in Arabic? 1, 2, 3, and 4???

Do they match up with 4.3?

Released

This was brought up a long time ago, that the verse literally translates to "in twos, threes, and fours". Your "up to four" theory sinks to the bottom of the sea. You wouldn't be marrying women in twos, threes, and fours unless you are thinking of starting a harem? Quite obviously, this verse is in regard to financing marriages.

We know it is your desire to change what has clearly been written, but you don't have a leg to stand on. You can propagate polygyny all you want, but the truth is, more and more women are waking up to what's really written in the Quran. The truth hurts.

Released

Peace.

Our friend is a Sunni. Surprise Surprise. laugh

The_Chimp

@ Released - I am replying once to the somewhat bizarre posts. . .

What are the numbers in Arabic? 1, 2, 3, and 4???

Do they match up with 4.3?

Beyond this - I do not get what you are asking . . .

"in twos, threes, and fours". Your "up to four" theory sinks to the bottom of the sea.

How? On the contrary - you have posted nothing that contradicts - the Sunni position and only agreed with it when talking about the verse and then 360 jump. The final number mentioned is four. . . the verse stops there.

You wouldn't be marrying women in twos, threes, and fours unless you are thinking of starting a harem? Quite obviously, this verse is in regard to financing marriages.

How so?

We know it is your desire to change what has clearly been written, but you don't have a leg to stand on. You can propagate polygyny all you want, but the truth is, more and more women are waking up to what's really written in the Quran. The truth hurts.

Once again . . . the strange desire to get "personal" . . . without bothering to answer anything. Why should it be my desire to change what has been written? Countless past and present experts of Arabic in droves have understood this to be what is according to the Sunni position. So why is it only my personal desire to change anything?

And you do not even know . . . what it is that I am fiddling with!

Our friend is a Sunni. Surprise Surprise. laugh

And how is that laughing matter? Or by saying this . . . does this somehow excuse you from answering?

= = =

You people invent strange meanings . . . and then just become abusive . . . this has happened repeatedly! When you are no longer able to answer.

noshirk

The verse is about polygamy - for over 1000 years that is a how it has been understood - by Arabic experts and non-experts alike.

Salaam the chimp

1-Follow quran
73 Follow what was sent down to you from your Lord, and do not follow besides Him any tutors. Little do you remember!

2-don't follow leaders
3367 And they will say ?Our Lord, we have obeyed our leaders and our learned ones, but they misled us from the path.?

3-don't follow priests and monks
931 They have taken their Priests and Monks to be patrons besides God, and the Messiah, son of Mary, while they were only commanded to serve One god, there is no god except He, be He glorified against what they set up.

4-don't follow ancestors
3121 And if they are told ?Follow that which God has sent down.? They say ?No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing.? What if the devil had been leading them to the agony of Hell?

i would be happy to discuss arguments from quran
your arguments are, until know, "kafir arguments".
it is forbidden to me, by my deen, to discuss of deen of God, with people who take other arbabs and make reference to other books

Now, can you respond to these without reference to other arbabs and other books

1- What is nikah for you ? Sexual act ?
2 -With how many "slaves" can you make "nikah" in your deen ? Are they counted in the "four" ? are they still slaves after nikah or did they obtain "wife " status ?
3- Why in 4-4; word sadaqa (charity) is used. When Allah speaks about dowry, he use generally ajr (salary) and it is an obligation. Did you consider what a man gives to his wife as sadaqa ?

let's stop here for the moment
Peace

The_Chimp

Salaam the chimp

1-Follow quran
73 Follow what was sent down to you from your Lord, and do not follow besides Him any tutors. Little do you remember!

2-don't follow leaders
3367 And they will say ?Our Lord, we have obeyed our leaders and our learned ones, but they misled us from the path.?

3-don't follow priests and monks
931 They have taken their Priests and Monks to be patrons besides God, and the Messiah, son of Mary, while they were only commanded to serve One god, there is no god except He, be He glorified against what they set up.

4-don't follow ancestors
3121 And if they are told ?Follow that which God has sent down.? They say ?No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing.? What if the devil had been leading them to the agony of Hell?

i would be happy to discuss arguments from quran
your arguments are, until know, "kafir arguments".
it is forbidden to me, by my deen, to discuss of deen of God, with people who take other arbabs and make reference to other books

Now, can you respond to these without reference to other arbabs and other books

1- What is nikah for you ? Sexual act ?
2 -With how many "slaves" can you make "nikah" in your deen ? Are they counted in the "four" ? are they still slaves after nikah or did they obtain "wife " status ?
3- Why in 4-4; word sadaqa (charity) is used. When Allah speaks about dowry, he use generally ajr (salary) and it is an obligation. Did you consider what a man gives to his wife as sadaqa ?

let's stop here for the moment
Peace

You people are good at nothing more than petty insults. Look at you - you build up your own nonsense and come to abuse . . .

See what you said

your arguments are, until know, "kafir arguments".

In other words . . .this is a get out close by calling everyone "kafir"

No, no, no.

If to you everyone s Kafir - then you go an enjoy your own self and be a believer . . . and curse the god who until now has mislead humanity for 1500 years and is now leading YOU to straight path.

It is simple logic . . . you do not know a single letter of Quran without reliance on "others" . . .

What does these letters mean?

Nothing . . . they are nonsense aren't they?

it is forbidden to me, by my deen, to discuss of deen of God, with people who take other arbabs and make reference to other books

Is it? Then why are you discussing it?

Then it is perfectly safe to say . . . Islam is NOT your "deen" - whatever "deen" is . . .

You are completely illogical and do not know WHAT you are saying.

Other than calling people "Kaffir".

The_Chimp

Isn't it quite surprising . . . the extremely low level of knowledge?

Mistake after mistake after mistake . . . when a person after person is exposed . . .

They insults you and make up utter nonsense . . . time after time.

noshirk

You people are good at nothing more than petty insults. Look at you - you build up your own nonsense and come to abuse . . .

See what you said

In other words . . .this is a get out close by calling everyone "kafir"

No, no, no.

If to you everyone s Kafir - then you go an enjoy your own self and be a believer . . . and curse the god who until now has mislead humanity for 1500 years and is now leading YOU to straight path.

It is simple logic . . . you do not know a single letter of Quran without reliance on "others" . . .

What does these letters mean?

Nothing . . . they are nonsense aren't they?

Is it? Then why are you discussing it?

Then it is perfectly safe to say . . . Islam is NOT your "deen" - whatever "deen" is . . .

You are completely illogical and do not know WHAT you are saying.

Other than calling people "Kaffir".

salaam the_chimp

i didn't told that you are kafir. I Just told, based on quran, that your arguments are those used generally by kafirs. they cannot then be accepted.

now look at what are reation of kafirs when they are asked to use quran alone.

1746 And we place shields over their hearts, that they should not understand it, and a deafness in their ears. And if you mention your Lord in the Qur?an alone, they run away turning their backs in aversion.

3945 And when God alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned besides Him, they rejoice!

4012 This is because when God alone was mentioned, you rejected, but when partners were set up with Him, you believed. Therefore, the judgment is for God, the Most High, the Great.

so, dear chimp, i don't know what is in your heart, but if you want to argue not like a kafir and to react not like a kafir, rule is very simple

USE QURAN.

Isn't honest ?
I would then be very happy to respond to yours arguments.

i remember you my questions
1- What is nikah for you ? Sexual act ?
2 -With how many "slaves" can you make "nikah" in your deen ? Are they counted in the "four" ? are they still slaves after nikah or did they obtain "wife " status ?
3- Why in 4-4; word sadaqa (charity) is used. When Allah speaks about dowry, he use generally ajr (salary) and it is an obligation. Did you consider what a man gives to his wife as sadaqa ?

Peace

The_Chimp

salaam the_chimp

i didn't told that you are kafir. I Just told, based on quran, that your arguments are those used generally by kafirs. they cannot then be accepted.

now look at what are reation of kafirs when they are asked to use quran alone.

1746 And we place shields over their hearts, that they should not understand it, and a deafness in their ears. And if you mention your Lord in the Qur?an alone, they run away turning their backs in aversion.

3945 And when God alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned besides Him, they rejoice!

4012 This is because when God alone was mentioned, you rejected, but when partners were set up with Him, you believed. Therefore, the judgment is for God, the Most High, the Great.

so, dear chimp, i don't know what is in your heart, but if you want to argue not like a kafir and to react not like a kafir, rule is very simple

USE QURAN.

Isn't honest ?
I would then be very happy to respond to yours arguments.

i remember you my questions
1- What is nikah for you ? Sexual act ?
2 -With how many "slaves" can you make "nikah" in your deen ? Are they counted in the "four" ? are they still slaves after nikah or did they obtain "wife " status ?
3- Why in 4-4; word sadaqa (charity) is used. When Allah speaks about dowry, he use generally ajr (salary) and it is an obligation. Did you consider what a man gives to his wife as sadaqa ?

Peace

i didn't told that you are kafir.

Straight up - no. In a round about devious way yes. Evidence is right there.

I Just told, based on quran, that your arguments are those used generally by kafirs. they cannot then be accepted.

This means nothing . . . "logic" has nothing to do with one particular belief system . . . so saying that is calling every person who is not Quran only - like you a kafir - which includes me.

It seems you do not have or your concept of logic is skewed.

On one hand

so, dear chimp, i don't know what is in your heart, but if you want to argue not like a kafir and to react not like a kafir, rule is very simple

USE QURAN.

Isn't honest ?
I would then be very happy to respond to yours arguments.

Then you have questions!

No way, Jose.

I don't deal with such nonsense. You have added nothing other than petty insults and you well versed nonsense. . . why you quote selective verses and try to justify and make excuses.

noshirk

why you quote selective verses and try to justify and make excuses.

salaam

sorry if i was misunderstood.
i made no excuses.

Thank you for exposing arguments of polygamy defensors.
That was very interesting.

Peace

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

Nothing to excuse when you believe in the Message of God and not a lot of conjecture by fools. Most Messengers as far as I am concerned had only one wife, Abraham for example. Do not argue about Hagar because she was a concubine and Sarah's handmaiden only used because Sarah was barren.

The men and women come in twos.

Anyway, in a fair society there is no room for men to have several wives due to the quota of men vs. women. Thus is God's design as you obviously see as else God would make noteworthy more women in the society.

God bless you

noshirk

Peace,

Nothing to excuse when you believe in the Message of God and not a lot of conjecture by fools. Most Messengers as far as I am concerned had only one wife, Abraham for example. Do not argue about Hagar because she was a concubine and Sarah's handmaiden only used because Sarah was barren.

The men and women come in twos.

Anyway, in a fair society there is no room for men to have several wives due to the quota of men vs. women. Thus is God's design as you obviously see as else God would make noteworthy more women in the society.

God bless you

Salaam Man of Faith

personally, i don't believe that a women called hagar, concubine of Abraham, have existed.
No hagar in quran.
And the tale of Abraham expulsing hagar and ismaeil is incredible for me.

Peace