Jose Mujica - Atheist
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Forgiven for what? For refusing to believe in one of thousands of virtually identical claims about the existence of a supernatural deity despite not being able to verify and justify it at least to him/herself? How is that a crime?
I hope someday you'll back to believe in Allah. )
I truly hope for it, and I hope you notice that your attitude become harsh now, brother, if compare with you in the past.
I've ever read some of your writings to learn, I suppose you wrote those when you still support God.
Peace.
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Shalom Aleikhem JavaLatte,
I hope someday you'll back to believe in Allah. )
Ok. I hope someday you and the world will stop falling for such things.
I truly hope for it, and I hope you notice that your attitude become harsh now, brother, if compare with you in the past.
I've ever read some of your writings to learn, I suppose you wrote those when you still support God.
I don't think my attitude has become "harsh". However, I do understand what you are talking about. You see my friend, the trouble is that whatever I say now will most likely go against the things you hold dear to you and believe in strongly. That makes it difficult for me to make my point without challenging the things you believe so strongly. I am sure that the traditional hadith following muslims felt the same way when I criticized them when I used to be a Qur'an alone follower.
You see my friend, in my last post on this thread, I've made a good point about forgiveness. Why don't you show me how I am wrong? I still stand by the point I made, not to be harsh but for the sake of following the truth. I have also given the example of a doctor there to help the reader understand how psychotic it would be for someone to be so mad at me for merely not believing in them that they go and put me in a lake of fire!! How about you address that point and explain how that behavior is "good" behavior? I can assure you that I do not mean to be offensive for the sake of it.
If you look at my old posts in the forum, you will realize that I was always outspoken and always tried my best to advance my argument against something by attacking any idea/argument the opponent might have presented. The only difference is that Qur'an alone muslims didn't get to taste it as the cannon was always aimed at non-Qur'an alone people. Once again, I apologize if I am coming across as too harsh. I am not harsh unless what you are promoting is really that ludicrous that it necessitates a response that matches the intensity of the inherent absurdity of your object of promotion. In my last post, I didn't criticized that kind of a psychopath-model of a God just to be harsh. I did it to keep things real and make people look at the bigger picture where they are talking about pleasing an insecure psychopath, not a loving sane God.
PEACE
---------------- Student of Allah -
Salam brother.
Ok. I hope someday you and the world will stop falling for such things.
But how come you think that I'm falling? Do you think 'believe in God' is a bad thing?
The reason why I believe in God because I can't deny that I see and feel His signs.
I can't resist God's signs and I don't want to resist, inshaAllah.
I don't think my attitude has become "harsh". However, I do understand what you are talking about.
Thank you.
I am sure that the traditional hadith following muslims felt the same way when I criticized them when I used to be a Qur'an alone follower.
It could be, but perhaps deep down inside they know that man-made hadith is wrong.
You see my friend, in my last post on this thread, I've made a good point about forgiveness. Why don't you show me how I am wrong? I still stand by the point I made, not to be harsh but for the sake of following the truth.
Bold That's good. D
If you keep insist to follow the truth, then inshaAllah someday you'll back to believe in Allah.
I have also given the example of a doctor there to help the reader understand how psychotic it would be for someone to be so mad at me for merely not believing in them that they go and put me in a lake of fire!!
I suppose you look very upset when you think that Allah will punish you for the reason that you don't believe in Him.
When you (or even me) don't believe that someone is a medical doctor, then of course I don't think it'll be a crime. I think it's fine if we don't believe in something like that.
However, I think your example is not suitable.
You cannot compare such example with believe in God. )
Peace, and thank you for being polite.
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Shalom Aleikhem JavaLatte,
For anyone reading this(including JavaLatte) I am writing this the way I see things. I won't sugarcoat anything just so that I can be as honest as possible throughout the post. I don't mind if my post makes you feel a bit comfortable as its a very little price to pay for ANYONE who is "actually" looking for the truth.
As for JavaLatte You mentioned that you have been through my posts from the past and learnt things. Why should it be any different now? I am not asking you to accept whatever I say dogmatically. I will try to reason and not claim things I can not provide evidence for. I have not changed in that regards, so you should still be able to learn things. On top of that, I can promise you that I am more honest in this search of truth now than I ever was.
But how come you think that I'm falling?
Religion exploits the tendency our pattern-seeking primate brain has towards believing. People fall victim to this scam. Throughout human history, no evidence has been ever brought forth proving the existence of a God, let alone a specific god like your god for example. Although it is possible that you can be that ONE PERSON who finally proves the existence of a God and gets a Nobel prize for it, I assumed that that's unlikely. Therefore, it logically followed that you are just like everyone else, believing in things like that without adequate rational justification.
Do you think 'believe in God' is a bad thing?
I will not bring up the intellectuals that have been killed and persecuted because of the "God beliefs" all throughout human history. Let me not bring up the wars and atrocities that just "beliefs in Gods" aided throughout history. Let me not talk about all my sisters who have always been subjugated and are still being subjugated because of these misogynistic "God beliefs". Let me not tell you a word about how such "God beliefs" paralyzed half of humanity ( females) through every form of discrimination known to man. Let me not bring up how many people were tortured because of the results of these God beliefs, ranging from lashing in public all the way up to chopping off of hands, stoning to death, beheading etc. Let me not bring up how these "beliefs in God" gave the lazy thinkers a divine mandate to rape,loot,kill and enslave my brothers and sisters all throughout the world. Rapes and genocides decreed straight from these "Gods" and revered and respected by followers like you who fail to see the evil in them because "one shouldn't compare our activities with what God mandates". I won't talk about all the things I just mentioned but I will not end the post here in the honor of all the souls that suffered throughout the ages because of this gateway drug "belief in God" paving the way for so much evil. It is because I love them despite having met them that I will stand here today and not let you get away with your defense of a pathetically disastrous belief system.
Is "belief in God" a bad thing? Not inherently. There is nothing intrinsically wrong about believing in anything. What makes it either good or bad is the reason why you believe in something. No one has ever been able to demonstrate the existence of any such deities and therefore throughout human civilization people have only come up with absurd fallacious reasoning to justify their beliefs in Gods/Goddesses. The amount of uncritical thinking and dependency on logical fallacies it takes to believe in such Gods ultimately results in something really bad. It makes the belief in God like a gateway drug making it easier for one's mind to accept other absurd and ridiculous things.
On top of this belief being irrational and bad, it actually teaches otherwise sane people to be astonishingly arrogant and dishonest. If I told you that I know that there are 9876 alien life forms in the universe, wouldn't you wonder how I know that? Would it be fine if I said vague things like "I get the fuzzy feeling that I am right" or "I can see it written all over the universe in spiritual signs that there are 9876 alien life forms in the entire universe"? This is where religion gets a free pass. YOU get to sit there and claim KNOWLEDGE about the existence of some deity who created the universe without ever having to justify it with reason and evidence. You won't accept my claims if I said that THERE JUST HAS TO BE 9876 alien life forms because I believe it with all my heart and I am right, will you? I am sure you will turn into what an average atheist is always accused of being, empiricist!! You will ask for actual evidence to be provided instead of me telling you vague things about my feelings or seeing random signs that aren't anything objective.
Take the example of how you deal with traditional hadith following muslims. I am sure you will NEVER accept their position to be TRUE if they tell you things like "I believe we must follow hadiths because I can feel it deep within me" or "I believe we can follow hadith because I saw the signs!!" I salute you for not accepting that kind of garbage reasoning. However, I do not like how in order to preserve your "belief in God", you have to be a hypocrite and demand evidence from hadith followers while simultaneously resting your beliefs on such ridiculously bad reasoning. Heck!! One can't even account for the "word of God" that they base everything on!! Otherwise, would you mind coming and posting on this thread (click me) and showing the rest of the world how you would go about historically verifying that the Qur'an you have is the original one? Just go to that thread and read my responses and see if you can help out those who claims that Qur'an was preserved. If you can't or if you don't find that necessary, then also stop being hypocritical about the SAME thing when it comes to people who believe in hadiths but can't demonstrate to you how those were ACTUAL sayings.
In short I guess, such beliefs in God needs you to be totally uncritical about the biggest questions humanity has asked and they teach you to be satisfied with BASELESS assertions instead of seeking the actual answers with full honesty and unrestrained devotion to the journey towards the truth.
The reason why I believe in God because I can't deny that I see and feel His signs.
You do know that you are making almost a factual claim there, right? If these are those vague subjective "fuzzy feeling" based and deeply rooted in arguments from ignorance type "signs", then whatever I said previously should help you see they are all baseless. It is generally understood and universally accepted that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Only when it comes to religious people do we see the exact opposite being held as the norm. The bigger the claim the less the evidence. You are making a gigantic claim about something that is factual here. What standard of evidence allows you to posit a belief in such a serious and big claim based only on vague things like "seeing signs"? Would you be willing to test it out? Why don't you present your case for God and demonstrate to us how logically you deduce from whatever sign that "a God does exist and it is your God"?
It must be so convenient, isn't it? Heck! Even the followers of convicted frauds like Joseph Smith ( founder of Mormon religion) uses these excuses to justify why they believed in the claims of Joseph Smith. We have managed to create a society/civilization where it is alright for anyone to believe any absurd impossibility as long as they use the faith/religion card.
It can be that you actually have the evidence that theists all over the world throughout human history have been looking for to demonstrate the existence of their God/Gods/Goddess/Goddesses. How about you just accept this request and demonstrate why your beliefs are justified with evidence and reason instead of fuzzy feelings? (We can have our own thread for this)
I can't resist God's signs and I don't want to resist, inshaAllah.
Asserting it over and over again won't bring it into existence. You have to DEMONSTRATE that it is true. Me saying that when I look at the sky I feel the presence of Zeus and I see his glory doesn't convince you of the truth of what I say, does it? In the same way, you can't hope for any rational thinker to take you seriously unless you bring evidence to the table to back up your big claims about creator/creators of our universe. Not to mention that your claims are identical to the claims of virtually people from all religions and cults. What makes it more embarrassing is that your claims aren't that much different from people who are locked up in the insane asylums or mental wards of mental hospitals.
It could be, but perhaps deep down inside they know that man-made hadith is wrong.
That is the arrogance right there!! If not that, then its a serious lack of respect for other people's sincerity. Since when do you know how sincere every single person is in the depth of their being? Is it the case that you know that the Qur'an is wrong and still insist on following it? Wouldn't you feel disrespected if someone was trying to imply that you actually are pretending to believe in the Qur'an alone interpretation of Islam? So please, don't say such things about others. People can be wrong, that doesn't automatically make them liars. For example, I believe that your position is wrong since I don't believe in a God. However, that is not to say that I think that you know in your heart that Qur'an is actually wrong and you are just pretending!! That kind of behavior requires a lot of disrespect for your fellow human being and not to mention, arrogance.
If you keep insist to follow the truth, then inshaAllah someday you'll back to believe in Allah.
In that case you should be able to demonstrate how
- A God exists
- It is your God
If you can't do that, then you must see why I can not treat your beliefs any differently than I treat the beliefs of the vikings or the ancient Greeks.
I suppose you look very upset when you think that Allah will punish you for the reason that you don't believe in Him.
No, I am not actually upset that one Arab God out of the thousands human beings have made up throughout history will punish me. What bothers me the most is how this "belief in God" robs people of their basic sense of morality and rapes their sense of dignity and self-worth. It is stupefying how people are willing to overlook the most cruel and insane practice of evilness if its done by their Gods/Goddesses. I am upset how otherwise decent people like you who will not let others even slap me if I don't believe in them will end up kissing the as of a God when he sends me to hell fire!! Simply I couldn't believe!! That is abject slavery!! That has nothing to do with love or reason. That is one hideous monster. I don't know about a single human being who isn't more merciful than such an insecure intolerant bigoted ignoramus. If this is who you think is "most merciful", then you should go join the Adolph Hitler fanclub. That Nazi leader was similar to this model of God that you are proposing. All it took was the leader(Hitler) to not like some people. Those people were gathered and sent to concentration camps to be tortured to death!! Thats a demonstration of the "might makes you right" philosophy. Your God is no different than those bigoted Nazis. In fact, your God is infinitely more worse than Nazis. The reason being that a person in the concentration camp can at least fucking die and leave the camp!!! There is no such thing for promises by these Gods for eternal horror and torment in the hell they created for disbelievers like me.
I am only upset that otherwise sane people like you don't see through this and still insist on kissing the a*s of such a God. The truth is that I wouldn't even worship such a monster EVEN IF IT ACTUALLY EXISTED. I refuse to bow down to such intolerant bigots simply because they are more powerful than I am. I know that such a horrible monster with sufficient power can decide to put me in hell. However, I also know that at any given day/time/moment, I am a billion times morally superior to what that kind of a hideous monster can ever dream of becoming.
When you (or even me) don't believe that someone is a medical doctor, then of course I don't think it'll be a crime. I think it's fine if we don't believe in something like that.
That is when your brain is reasoning and trying to use your sense of justice to deduce if merely not being convinced that person is a medical doctor should be a crime, let alone a crime deserving hell-fire!!
However, I think your example is not suitable.
You cannot compare such example with believe in God. )
And this is where religion utterly rapes your sense of justice. It screws up your sense of empathy for your fellow human being. You know to be empathetic because you know what pain is, you probably felt it in one shape way or form. You know what justice is because you have the ability to equate a given crime with a given sentence. Nobody was comparing belief in God with believing someone is a doctor. That example was analogous in the sense that in both cases the person doesn't do anything that can possibly harm the other party. Or are you suggesting that as an atheist I do have the power to harm your God? The context of this entire thread is that we are talking about an otherwise good person who simply doesn't believe in God. Then what is left to label as a "crime"? IF you now say that not being able to believe in a claim because you aren't personally convinced of the truth of it is a crime, then you clearly demonstrate what is so wrong with "belief in a God". It makes you do extreme mental gymnastics and say and do horrible and asinine things just to defend a belief that you can't possibly provide evidence for in the first place.
I don't even see how it can ever be a "crime" AT ALL!! Imagine that the Greeks were right and Zeus is the Lord. Is it a "crime" for me to not believe in that claim especially that I personally can't find any reason to believe it? On top of that, will it be fair for Zeus to then throw me in a lake of fire for this? It is sad how good people can support such a horrible philosophy and come to its defense. Not to mention that your ALL KNOWING bigoted monstrosity of a God already knew in advance that I won't be able to verify the truth of these claims. That means that your God knowingly created me weak and is now demanding perfection!!
Peace, and thank you for being polite.
I have tried my best to not indulge in any form of unwarranted aggression. Some things just cannot be stated too calmly. Especially when my opponent is advocating for the existence of a God who doesn't behave any better than a common terrorist and tries to intimidate people through threats to make them accept whatever they have to offer. Shame on such a god and shame on you if you support such an idea or entity!
Peace
--------------- Student of Allah -
Peace Student of Allah.
I have read your posts with interest. You are absolutely right " being honest and blunt " is the best method. Believing is a very personal thing. However " what is the truth" is also personal. Who has the truth?
Those who believe in "God" ,the creator of all that we can see? will tell you "He is the truth"!,why?
Because those who walk through earth totally oblivious to God's truth, as if He never gave them the hearing, the eyesight and the brain. They can never comprehend His proofs no matter how clear they are as it is a divine system that His proofs are to be beneficial ONLY for the souls of the believers. God already informed us that most people are either blind to His proofs or they slide back after witnessing them. Once this decision is made, it is a divine law that they are to be kept in the dark.
Say, "Look at all the signs in the heavens and the earth." All the proofs and all the warnings can never help people who decided to disbelieve.
Divine Intervention keeps the Disbelievers in the Dark.
I will divert from My revelations those who are arrogant on earth, without justification. Consequently, when they see every kind of proof they will not believe. And when they see the path of guidance they will not adopt it as their path, but when they see the path of straying they will adopt it as their path. This is the consequence of their rejecting our proofs, and being totally heedless thereof.
Some of them listen to you, but we place veils on their heartsto prevent them from understanding, and deafness in their ears. Thus, no matter what kind of proof they see, they cannot believe. Thus, when they come to argue with you, the disbelievers say, "These are tales from the past."
Why should God guide people who disbelieved after believing, and after witnessing that the messenger is truth, and after solid proofs* have been given to them? God does not guide the wicked.
He is the One who continuously shows you His proofs, and sends down to you from the sky provisions. Only those who totally submit will be able to take heed.
The reverent will take heed.
The wicked will avoid it.
And remind, for the reminder benefits the believers.
The heavens and the earth are full of proofs for the believers.
Among His proofs is that He created you from dust, then you became reproducing humans.
He committed in your service everything in the heavens and the earth; all from Him. These are proofs for people who reflect.
Among His proofs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquility and contentment with each other, and He placed in your hearts love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are sufficient proofs for people who think.
Among His proofs are the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the variations in your languages and your colors. In these, there are signs for the knowledgeable.
Among His proofs is your sleeping during the night or the day, and your working in pursuit of His provisions. In this, there are sufficient proofs for people who can hear.
Among His proofs is that He shows you the lightning as a source of fear, as well as hope, then He sends down from the sky water to revive a land that has been dead. In these, there are sufficient proofs for people who understand.
Among His proofs is that the heaven and the earth are standing at His disposal. Finally, when He calls you out of the earth, one call, you will immediately come out.Among His proofs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the creatures He spreads in them. He is able to summon them, when He wills.
Brother ,you have the choice and you are entitled to disbelieve in the vreator of all that you can see.
Please do not take anything personal, I do not know your future thoughts , whether you will change them again, I will hope that you will find the truth?
In friendship and hope.
Peace. -
I have tried my best to not indulge in any form of unwarranted aggression. Some things just cannot be stated too calmly. Especially when my opponent is advocating for the existence of a God who doesn't behave any better than a common terrorist and tries to intimidate people through threats to make them accept whatever they have to offer. Shame on such a god and shame on you if you support such an idea or entity!
Peace,
And that one God will not punish you either if you have a good way of being. The "believe in me" part is arguable if not one does if they are righteous.
Either way, the option to believe that there is a Master above or not is up to each of us and it is quite personal and we are responsible only for ourselves. Only reason I have understood that one is to interfere in someone else system is if they oppress others or do something atrocious.
So feel free not to believe in a god and believe that we just happen to exist out of nothing in some funny way. I cannot force you to believe in anyway, but if I see you oppress or misbehave that it causes damage then I can try to stop you from doing that, with the best way possible in equality or less.
It feels a bit unkind to indirectly say that people are suckers for believing in a creating force within the galaxies that is high above everyone else and controlling the world as we know it, and which is randomly selecting exceptional people to receive signs of it as a mercy in a kind of hidden game. Not saying at all why the Force has created this world because that is beyond my understanding. For all I "feel" is that it wants me to be a good one and "meld" with it and that I understand how small I really am inside this realm.
The benefits of being "in symbiosis" with this creating force are all the "buffs" that come with it, but it works much like Star Wars than the old sectarian knowings.
So you say God behaves like a terrorist in the recited words? Well, one can understand that a person has to pay for the crimes they have done (because it is the ill-doings that we are punished for) and sectarianism is responsible for much of the views that the "Arabian God" accepts only a certain group of people. I have not completely bought the traditional Quranic understanding that God places anyone in Hell, but that these people are simply too weak for any other fate. Except that without God's light there is already Hell on Earth. Hell could as well be the original Earth after God's grace left it.
Well. It is men that has shaped the pathetic shape of world religions and not God.
An alleged man, like anyone else, called Muhammad composed what we traditionally refer to as "Qur'an" and he composed it to the best of his understanding out of likely inspiration. True and correct information is up to each of us to accept or not, but we should know that it may contains errors as a fallible man composed it. It could have been me or it could have been you
God bless you
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Shalom Aleikhem JavaLatte,
For anyone reading this(including JavaLatte) I am writing this the way I see things. I won't sugarcoat anything just so that I can be as honest as possible throughout the post. I don't mind if my post makes you feel a bit comfortable as its a very little price to pay for ANYONE who is "actually" looking for the truth.
Perfect..
I am not asking you to accept whatever I say dogmatically. I will try to reason and not claim things I can not provide evidence for. I have not changed in that regards, so you should still be able to learn things. On top of that, I can promise you that I am more honest in this search of truth now than I ever was.
Perfect
Religion exploits the tendency our pattern-seeking primate brain has towards believing. People fall victim to this scam.
Very true, although I want to revise towards
"Religion exploits the tendency of the greedy primate brain has towards believing of benefit that he/she will get for doing something for the sake of the religious elite".Throughout human history, no evidence has been ever brought forth proving the existence of a God, let alone a specific god like your god for example. Although it is possible that you can be that ONE PERSON who finally proves the existence of a God and gets a Nobel prize for it, I assumed that that's unlikely. Therefore, it logically followed that you are just like everyone else, believing in things like that without adequate rational justification.
Again it depends on one definition of God.
If God is an object exist and confined within this universe's time and space then such thing is not God.I will not bring up the intellectuals that have been killed and persecuted because of the "God beliefs" all throughout human history. Let me not bring up the wars and atrocities that just "beliefs in Gods" aided throughout history. Let me not bring up how many people were tortured because of the results of these God beliefs, ranging from lashing in public all the way up to chopping off of hands, stoning to death, beheading etc. Let me not bring up how these "beliefs in God" gave the lazy thinkers a divine mandate to rape,loot,kill and enslave my brothers and sisters all throughout the world. Rapes and genocides decreed straight from these "Gods" and revered and respected by followers like you who fail to see the evil in them because "one shouldn't compare our activities with what God mandates".
It's actually the most important lesson to learn.
Learning and remembering how many atrocities has been performed in the past for or due to the sake of religion.
One will end up on a conclusion on "Why religion was invented in the first place".I won't talk about all the things I just mentioned but I will not end the post here in the honor of all the souls that suffered throughout the ages because of this gateway drug "belief in God" paving the way for so much evil.
It's interesting you mentioned the word "soul".
What is a "soul"?No one has ever been able to demonstrate the existence of any such deities and therefore throughout human civilization people have only come up with absurd fallacious reasoning to justify their beliefs in Gods/Goddesses.
True, deities doesn't exist..
The amount of uncritical thinking and dependency on logical fallacies it takes to believe in such Gods ultimately results in something really bad. It makes the belief in God like a gateway drug making it easier for one's mind to accept other absurd and ridiculous things.
True, ranging from human sacrifice (including sacrificing / murdering his own son) to mass torture and murder.
In short I guess, such beliefs in God needs you to be totally uncritical about the biggest questions humanity has asked and they teach you to be satisfied with BASELESS assertions instead of seeking the actual answers with full honesty and unrestrained devotion to the journey towards the truth.
What is this "biggest questions that humanity has asked?".
People can be wrong, that doesn't automatically make them liars. For example, I believe that your position is wrong since I don't believe in a God. However, that is not to say that I think that you know in your heart that Qur'an is actually wrong and you are just pretending!! That kind of behavior requires a lot of disrespect for your fellow human being and not to mention, arrogance.
It makes me curious what is your definition of God as such you don't believe in it/his existence?
In that case you should be able to demonstrate how
- A God exists
- It is your God
If you can't do that, then you must see why I can not treat your beliefs any differently than I treat the beliefs of the vikings or the ancient Greeks.
According to a chinese who lived about 2600 years ago.
His definition of "God" is There's something in existence even before time and space was created.
As thus this "God" is not dependent towards time and space.
Infact time and space itself was created.Me and many of today's scientist agree with the above statement.
We know now that the event named "Big bang" was not an explosion of matter into space, it was actually the initial expansion of this universe time and space.However this pose a difficulty, how to prove something exist towards a being living in this universe's time and space?
If that something which has to be proven is not confined within this universe's time and space?But again, how does that matter anyway? Why is that important?
Let's take a smaller conception of let's say the "Big Bang" event itself.
How does believing or not believing in this event called the "Big Bang" has to do with being good or evil?
To me it's irrelevant.. feel free to believe or not believe the "Big Bang" event did occurred.No, I am not actually upset that one Arab God out of the thousands human beings have made up throughout history will punish me.
Usually it's the "believer of such God" that shall punish you.
For example
Abraham doesn't believe in the Marduk God, the follower of Marduk burned him at the stake.The objective and reason is clear, if Abraham was not stopped (by ending his life) he will cast doubt and shake the 'belief' of the society towards such nonsense. If that happened the religious elite shall lose their influence and power among the people. And that's dangerous for the religious elite.
Truth doesn't need any protection, falsehood does..
And this is where religion utterly rapes your sense of justice. It screws up your sense of empathy for your fellow human being.
Very true..
And that's how "Evil works".
First by defining the line between "us" and "them".
Continued with justification on why THEY deserved to be tortured and/or murdered.A great video regarding this scheme, from the point of view of human psychology.
http//www.ted.com/talks/philip_zimbardo_on_the_psychology_of_evilI don't even see how it can ever be a "crime" AT ALL!!
It's not a crime at all, how could believing or not believing in something be a crime??
Salam / Peace
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Prove God? ?Prove love? What is God that you can prove? What is love that you can prove?
This kind of debate is pitiful, finally it revolves about words and what each person puts into them. How is anybody going to prove that what I have in my mind under any word at all exists or doe snot exist.
Any proof of anything at all can only be provided for things that are within our reach, not for things that are not. Therefore, by definition nobody can prove God, and if they could prove it it would not be God. However one can experience things that are not within one's reach.
Salaam
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This guy, doesn't matter what he thinks of him self as "what he is", his actions define him instead.
His actions are clearly humane and definitely on a path for God, even if he thinks of himself the opposite, that doesn't change it.According to my opinion, he will be judged by his action even if he calls him self an atheist.
Same as a "religious" person whose actions are totally ungodly, and calls him self a believer, doesn't matter.So I bet Allah the most merciful of All, has more mercy to this guy that we have toward him.
And his actions are one of a kind, According the the Quran chapter 55, (the reward for good, is good).Some people go to back to God with only actions, some people go back with only faith, Actions make bigger impacts to me.
InshaAllah he will be rewarded with what he did, nothing he did will be lost.
Peace,
Yami. -
At least we all know that the People of the Scripture (the disbelievers?) can be the righteous person. . .
and accordingly, deserved to be in ParadiseThey are not the same; among the People of the Scripture
is a community standing
reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night
and prostrating .
They believe in Allah and the Last Day
and they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong
and hasten to good deeds.
And those are among the righteous.
3113-114Secondly, Allah protects monasteries, churches and synagogues. . .
Permission has been given to those who are being fought
because they were wronged
And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory
those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, ?Our Lord is Allah .?
And were it not that Allah checks the people
some by means of others, there would have been demolished
monasteries
churches
synagogues
and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned.
And Allah will surely support those who support Him.
Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might.
2239-40 -
Peace,
Thanks for your words huruf.
In fact it is "blind faith" we are talking about. God even mentions in a passage "those who believe in the unseen", so one cannot really argue otherwise. And even if God's "force" was somewhere you could not see Him as in the example with Moses and the shaking mountain.
But underneath it all it is not really blind faith at heart level because through intuition it is possible to confirm although only to oneself and those able to comprehend and think and ponder themselves. And with enough faith God will sort of signal you and make sure you feel that He is always there, always near. But I can never confirm God physically in a way that I could concretely prove Him scientifically. And that has its reasons as it is part of the test, and perhaps that God has no physical shape but is an energy in the universe. However God could instantly kill a bunch of people or pulverize a mountain if He wills or if a servant asks for it that is close enough to God and there is a reason for it. There needs to be a motive because God does not show signs that may spoil the test on someone that does not deserve guidance.
That faith could move a mountain, is a thinking to aim for. If you do not think it is possible your faith is weak.
But atheists are right when they say believers have blind faith. Perhaps it is blind, but not empty and it is useful to them. The blessings are gradual and thus is why God tells people to be patient and steadfast, but the rewards are very valuable for the patient ones (that keep their faith even if God does not reveal many clear signs yet).
Clear signs come to the patient one that keeps doing good and remain faithful despite few initial signs given to him/her and is determined that God is for real based on their own logic, reasoning and philosophies. It took me several years until God gave clear signs that I became completely certain about my Master and that my faith is strong enough that I pray for things and not surprised that they are granted later (as is in fact the case in many situations) and it is too obvious for me to be a mere coincidence.
My first prayer, before I had any real faith and a blind call for help to "someone" straight out into nowhere, was for a wife in the year of 2007 and it was granted with virtually 100% accuracy despite not actively browsing for a wife with the exact traits. And that was after I made drastic changes in life, reformed and stopped petty crimes, drug (ab)use, drinking and overall reckless living. I prayed in blind faith and I must have believed in something to respond and I was not really a believer but I had already figured out (or guessed) that there are supernatural forces in the universe even though not just one.
Well I begun to realize that something answered my prayers and that my reformation caused many benefits in terms of "coincidences" in my daily life. Of course they are not coincidences but subtle although prominent buffs (blessings) rewarded because of my change of ways. I do not know how far to take it to consider them mere coincidences, but the naive would likely still think I was only lucky.
And all I really wanted to say above was that faith is blind even though not underneath it all. It is not like you are going to bring out the God'o'meter and get readings to present to the critics.
And my faith is still more "Star Warsy" than the religious Islam and even though I use terms like God and so on it is still a Force in the galaxy to be reckoned with and you meld with it. God did not tell people to create religions and there is nothing like Islam but only a system and a decree, and an incomprehensible force in the galaxies controlling the outcome of it because it is the universe itself being present in all living materia and each person can bond with it and achieve conditions like in Star Wars (not joking). Refer back to the talk about moving mountains through faith.
A "Muslim's" life and job is much like the Jedi "peacekeepers" that want a balance in the force and when the corruptors (kafirs) commit their ill-doings they sense a great disturbance in the force. They cry when they hear the cries of the masses killed through oppression and imbalance.
A Muslim's life is not a life of counting haraam or halaal and imposing own rules on oneself to appear more righteous but in the actions for the improvement of the society and that it's system is compatible with "God's standards", ie no injustice and oppression and that people are treated equally.
God bless you
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My first prayer, before I had any real faith and a blind call for help to "someone" straight out into nowhere, was for a wife in the year of 2007 and it was granted with virtually 100% accuracy despite not actively browsing for a wife with the exact traits. And that was after I made drastic changes in life, reformed and stopped petty crimes, drug (ab)use, drinking and overall reckless living. I prayed in blind faith and I must have believed in something to respond and I was not really a believer but I had already figured out (or guessed) that there are supernatural forces in the universe even though not just one.
Brother, I actually like it when you share how you finally meet your wife... ;D
I'm a fan of real love stories (not love story in movies).
Thank you for sharing yours here. peace
May Allah grant both of you happiness in this world and in the hereafter.
Peace.
p.s. Everyone, sorry for off topic. )
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In fact it is "blind faith" we are talking about. God even mentions in a passage "those who believe in the unseen", so one cannot really argue otherwise. And even if God's "force" was somewhere you could not see Him as in the example with Moses and the shaking mountain.
According to the Tanakh, Moses did asked "Who/What are you?"
And the answer that came out was "I am what I am".
That's why the Israelites named Him/It as "He who was, is and will be" (YHVH)But I can never confirm God physically in a way that I could concretely prove Him scientifically. And that has its reasons as it is part of the test, and perhaps that God has no physical shape but is an energy in the universe. However God could instantly kill a bunch of people or pulverize a mountain.
Again it depends on one definition of God.
I see your definition of God is close to my definition of God.
So Man of Faith, I'm a Theist of your God.Some people think God is an object and some others think God is a human or alien.
I'm an Atheist of such God just like Jose Mujica.
If SoA think God is an object, human, alien, being or anything that requires time and space.
And as thus he/she's an Atheist because of it.
Then I'm too an Atheist just like SoA.How to prove God?
God is an infinity.
He/It doesn't requires time and space.
Even time and space itself is a creation.
Ancient Indians and Chinese came up with name for such phenomenon initially and it gradually accepted in Math with as the symbol for it.Today's scientist started to came up with something called "Singularity", the state of infinity.
The next question is How to prove Singularity?
It's the state of what (only) exist before the Big Bang, before even time and space exist.
http//science.howstuffworks.com/dictionary/astronomy-terms/before-big-bang.htmAnd my faith is still more "Star Warsy" than the religious Islam and even though I use terms like God and so on it is still a Force in the galaxy to be reckoned with and you meld with it. God did not tell people to create religions and there is nothing like Islam but only a system and a decree, and an incomprehensible force in the galaxies controlling the outcome of it because it is the universe itself being present in all living materia and each person can bond with it and achieve conditions like in Star Wars (not joking).
So you're an Atheist as well then...
Star War's Force is indeed closer to truth compared to human/object/being kind of God.
Understandable since George Lucas was heavily influenced by Taoism.
And that's how Lao Tse defined Tao.Since before time and space were,
the Tao is.
It is beyond is and is not.
How do I know this is true?
I look inside myself and see.
-- Lao Tse, Tao The Ching, written circa 600 BCI'm a Theist of such God.
And an Atheist of human/being/alien/object kind of God.Salam / Peace
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Salam brother.
For anyone reading this(including JavaLatte) I am writing this the way I see things. I won't sugarcoat anything just so that I can be as honest as possible throughout the post. I don't mind if my post makes you feel a bit comfortable as its a very little price to pay for ANYONE who is "actually" looking for the truth.
Comfortable or uncomfortable?
Perhaps what you mean is uncomfortable?
However it is..., as long as you be honest, I think it's ok.
As for JavaLatte You mentioned that you have been through my posts from the past and learnt things. Why should it be any different now?
Hmm... I suppose because you 'suddenly' change?
I don't know the process, I mean how and when your turning point?
I can't find it from your posts, or perhaps it's because my lack understanding in English.
I don't understand why you suddenly change...
I knew you as someone who is very serious and enthusiastic sharing what you know of the Qur'an, and then one day I found that you suddenly turn become an atheist who is also enthusiastic, but now to oppose God.
Rapes and genocides decreed straight from these "Gods" and revered and respected by followers like you who fail to see the evil in them because "one shouldn't compare our activities with what God mandates".
Hey, I do see that rape is evil. I believe that my Lord forbids rape.
And about genocide... well if you also consider war as genocide, then I have to admit that as per my understanding there are times when war is ordered/allowed by God in the manner 'defensive war', that's how I understand how war is allowed.
Brother, please remember that here I am not trying to make you believe in what I said, I just telling you my opinions.
I have been through many things in my live that make me realize that I will never be able to make people like you to believe in God.
I go through a lot of sadness until I realize this, eventually I know that I am not able to change anyone to believe in God.
However, I am only human, and sometimes I have hopes for some people, including you, I hope you will one day return back to believe in God.
It's a hope, brother... my hope... and I suppose it is not a mistake to have hope.
Is "belief in God" a bad thing? Not inherently. There is nothing intrinsically wrong about believing in anything. What makes it either good or bad is the reason why you believe in something.
I think what makes it either good or bad is how one acts upon what he believes.
No one has ever been able to demonstrate the existence of any such deities and therefore throughout human civilization people have only come up with absurd fallacious reasoning to justify their beliefs in Gods/Goddesses.
I don't believe in Gods/Goddesses too, because what make sense to me is only One God.
If I told you that I know that there are 9876 alien life forms in the universe, wouldn't you wonder how I know that?
No.
If you told me something like that, then I would not wonder how you know that.
But, perhaps I'll wonder why you speak such a thing to me.
This is where religion gets a free pass. YOU get to sit there and claim KNOWLEDGE about the existence of some deity who created the universe without ever having to justify it with reason and evidence.
Well, to be sure about the existence of God is personal, and for me it's not instant.
I've through continuous process. It's between God and me. I have reasons for myself, but my reasons may not work on you.
You won't accept my claims if I said that THERE JUST HAS TO BE 9876 alien life forms because I believe it with all my heart and I am right, will you?
If you claim something like that to me, perhaps I just smile...
I have no reason to accept or reject such claims. You can insist for 9876 alien if you like.
I suppose you give similar example like your previous post (about medical doctor...),
and my stance is the same, I think your example is not suitable.
Would it be fine if I said vague things like "I get the fuzzy feeling that I am right"
To believe in God is not based on the fuzzy feeling...
When you feel close to God, your tears may coming out of the eyelids, the feeling is special. It is quite difficult to described.
I am sure you will turn into what an average atheist is always accused of being, empiricist!!
I suppose you don't know for sure as to what my reaction.
You will ask for actual evidence to be provided instead of me telling you vague things about my feelings or seeing random signs that aren't anything objective.
No, I won't. I have no reason to ask you for actual evidence to believe in 9876 alien life forms.
Take the example of how you deal with traditional hadith following muslims. I am sure you will NEVER accept their position to be TRUE if they tell you things like "I believe we must follow hadiths because I can feel it deep within me" or "I believe we can follow hadith because I saw the signs!!"
Hmmm... I suppose I just don't want to be like them (following man-made hadith).
I don't know what you mean about 'accept their position to be true' if they tell me such things.
I suppose I'm not even bother to think about accepting their position.
I hope they're willing to search for the truth sincerely, and if they keep insist to believe in man-made hadith, well then I suppose I better stop telling them, especially if they get angry.
I salute you for not accepting that kind of garbage reasoning. However, I do not like how in order to preserve your "belief in God", you have to be a hypocrite and demand evidence from hadith followers
Did I demand evidence from hadith followers? No, I think I never demand such things, as long as I can remember.
Why should I demand evidence to follow something which already clear for me that it is wrong.
When I realize that all of man-made hadith is wrong, then I leave it all.
That's what I do. I don't demand evidence in order to follow hadith again.
while simultaneously resting your beliefs on such ridiculously bad reasoning.
I think the reasons for my belief is not bad, but I don't know about your own personal reasons.
Heck!! One can't even account for the "word of God" that they base everything on!! Otherwise, would you mind coming and posting on this thread (click me) and showing the rest of the world how you would go about historically verifying that the Qur'an you have is the original one?
Brother, to be honest, I'm not someone who eager to do something like that.
My reasons are
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I don't know how to verify that the Qur'an I have is original. I admit that I don't have enough knowledge to verify such thing.
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My belief in Qur'an is personal, and I'm quite slow in learning it, but I have faith in God, so the Qur'an is very interesting to me, and I like it a lot.
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I don't feel moved to convince the whole world that the Qur'an is true and original. Because I know that I'm not able to make others to believe in the Qur'an. I will not be able to guide anyone even one single person.
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God does not order me to do that. I'm not a messenger.
Just go to that thread and read my responses and see if you can help out those who claims that Qur'an was preserved. If you can't or if you don't find that necessary, then also stop being hypocritical about the SAME thing when it comes to people who believe in hadiths but can't demonstrate to you how those were ACTUAL sayings.
Similar to what I said before, I do not ask from hadith followers demonstrate to me how those hadiths were actual saying. I don't ask them to do such things.
In short I guess, such beliefs in God needs you to be totally uncritical about the biggest questions humanity has asked and they teach you to be satisfied with BASELESS assertions instead of seeking the actual answers with full honesty and unrestrained devotion to the journey towards the truth.
Hmmm... -\ What do you mean by 'they'? Who are 'they'?
You do know that you are making almost a factual claim there, right?
What I know I just telling you my personal stance. Don't exaggerate my personal statement.
You are making a gigantic claim about something that is factual here.
Gigantic claim? Factual? ???
I just tell you the reason why I believe in God, and you accuse me making gigantic claim. (
What standard of evidence allows you to posit a belief in such a serious and big claim based only on vague things like "seeing signs"?
Do I have to fulfill standard of evidence for telling you about my belief?
Would you be willing to test it out?
For you? No... Why should I?
Why don't you present your case for God and demonstrate to us how logically you deduce from whatever sign that "a God does exist and it is your God"?
Why don't you stop being so arrogant and harsh?
How about you just accept this request and demonstrate why your beliefs are justified with evidence and reason instead of fuzzy feelings? (We can have our own thread for this)
How about you being more humble before God?
You are losing your humbleness before God.
My belief is not based on fuzzy feelings, perhaps that's what you feel, so no wonder you prefer to be atheist.
Asserting it over and over again won't bring it into existence.
I don't feel the need to bring my statement into existence.
You have to DEMONSTRATE that it is true.
Why?
You can't command me to do that, you are not my Lord, I am not your servant.
In the same way, you can't hope for any rational thinker to take you seriously unless you bring evidence to the table to back up your big claims about creator/creators of our universe.
I said I hope someday you'll back to believe in Allah.
My hope is not layed upon you. You cannot grant my hope.
My hope is upon God, I hope God will guide you.
If you don't want to take me seriously, then I don't mind with that.
I'm a person who has been accustomed being insulted and deemed as a fool. Thus is how the Lord taught me to be patient.
That kind of behavior requires a lot of disrespect for your fellow human being and not to mention, arrogance.
And you don't find yourself arrogant?
No, I am not actually upset that one Arab God out of the thousands human beings have made up throughout history will punish me.
But, you do look upset...
and fiery too...
What bothers me the most is how this "belief in God" robs people of their basic sense of morality and rapes their sense of dignity and self-worth. It is stupefying how people are willing to overlook the most cruel and insane practice of evilness if its done by their Gods/Goddesses.
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.I have tried my best to not indulge in any form of unwarranted aggression. Some things just cannot be stated too calmly. Especially when my opponent is advocating for the existence of a God who doesn't behave any better than a common terrorist and tries to intimidate people through threats to make them accept whatever they have to offer. Shame on such a god and shame on you if you support such an idea or entity!
After scolding God and me in such manner, do you feel better now?
You're like a volcano which was erupting and spewing hot lava.
Peace.
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Shalom Aleikhem good logic,
Nice to see you. How have you been?
I have read your posts with interest. You are absolutely right " being honest and blunt " is the best method. Believing is a very personal thing. However " what is the truth" is also personal. Who has the truth?
I am glad that you have read my post with interest. I like it when people read things before commenting. I do not wish to beat around the bush and I don't want to be vague. I wish to address my points of contention as clearly as I can. This helps in effective communication, thus the blunt honesty. I do agree that believing can be a personal thing, it probably is. Having said that, I can not agree that "truth" is also a personal thing. That just makes mockery out of the whole concept of "truth". You may not have realised this, but you are attempting at doing something I see religious people do all the time whether knowingly or unknowingly. By manipulating meanings of words, they tend to make every matter so vague that it becomes impossible to hold an intelligible conversation then. Here is the definition of "True" from Oxford dictionary
True
1 In accordance with fact or reality
2 Accurate or exact
3 Loyal or faithful
4 chiefly ? archaic HonestWe are not talking about the 3rd and 4th type here. We are talking about the 1st and 2nd type of definitions for True. Before anyone says that I am talking about "True" not "Truth", here is the definition of Truth from Oxford Dictionary
Truth
1 The quality or state of being trueSo in essence, truth is that which is "factually" and "actually" correct. It is therefore not something contingent on anybody's opinion. For example, let us imagine a mystery box
http//www.hirschhornantiques.com/upimages/mystery-box.jpg
You claim that there is an apple inside the box and I refuse to believe your claim. My friend X claims that you are wrong and there is an orrange inside the box. I refuse to believe her claim too. Now, the box may contain what you are saying or what my friend is saying. It can also not contain what you guys are saying. Does your belief that there's an apple inside or her belief that there is an orange inside change the TRUTH of the matter? Does your belief change what is inside the box? OF COURSE not!! The box either contains what you said or it doesn't. That is something FACTUAL. Nobody's belief changes the TRUTH of the matter. You can go on and believe an infinite number of things to be the content of that box but none of that affects the truth of the matter.
It is true that I am a human being. Will it be fair now if I try to twist the meanings of words and try to tell you that I am a cake and truth is subjective therefore in my version of the truth, I am a cake? Does that even make sense? We can not live a normal life if this word-play manipulation doesn't stop. Try telling the cashier at a superstore that according to your beliefs, the truth is that you have paid them the money for your shopping!! You me and everyone here knows just how pathetic that way of thinking about truth is. We just seem to excuse religious people when they try to manipulate meanings of words like this. We would never allow it in real life for good reasons. Try to go and defend a known murderer in the court by saying that whether the person murdered or not can not be ascertained because the "truth" of the matter is personal!!
So, no my friend, it is not "true" that "truth" is personal.
Those who believe in "God" ,the creator of all that we can see? will tell you "He is the truth"!,why?
Usually they do not have any rational justification for making such an enormous claim. However, I am willing to listen to what you have to say and my responses should follow.
Because those who walk through earth totally oblivious to God's truth, as if He never gave them the hearing, the eyesight and the brain. They can never comprehend His proofs no matter how clear they are as it is a divine system that His proofs are to be beneficial ONLY for the souls of the believers.
There you go. I have highlighted the absurdity of your philosophy in red. What you have stated there essentially implies that a non-believer will never find evidence for your God because God prefers to hide it from them and share only with believers. Here is an example of how incredibly dumb it sounds
I claim that I am God. Some people believes me and some doesn't. The non-believers demand evidence. My response is "Because those who walk through earth totally oblivious to Student of Allah's truth, as if He never gave them the hearing, the eyesight and the brain. They can never comprehend Student of Allah's proofs no matter how clear they are as it is a divine system that Student of Allah's proofs are to be beneficial ONLY for the souls of the believers." I just copy pasted the absurd reasoning that you provided to defend your God's refusal to or impotency to provide any evidence either due to incompetence or non-existence. This is a cop out technique that your mind provides you so that you can walk away without having to provide evidence for making big claims. Otherwise, are you ready to believe that I am God and you must not be getting it because I blocked your senses and only my believers can see my proof?
God already informed us that most people are either blind to His proofs or they slide back after witnessing them. Once this decision is made, it is a divine law that they are to be kept in the dark.
That is just wrong on so many different levels that one could write an essay on how ludicrous the behaviors of this Arab God is. Your God knowingly created them which makes him either impotent or stupid. Let's not get into that to keep things short. I did not "witness" ANYTHING!! I was mistaken. I was dishonestly starting my reasoning with the assumption that there is a God and the Qur'an is the word of God. That's it. The day I begin to investigate into my level of honesty in the quest for the truth, everything crumbled. I realized that I was being skeptical of EVERYTHING except these 2 things that I accepted without proper justification. Honesty demands that I do not hold a position that I can not justify with reason and evidence. That is why I am no longer a believer. Please do not make it sound like your Arab God came down and showed me some David Blane tricks and I was impressed and later started not liking the tricks anymore!! It was never like that. NEVER EVER.
Having said that, according to what you said, your God has serious psychological issues. You said "Once this decision is made, it is a divine law that they are to be kept in the dark. " So essentially, because I couldn't rationally justify believing in your God, he is now casting magical spells on me so that I remain in the dark and never get to see him????? Do you realize how dishonest of a pr*ck it makes him to do that? It is like breaking my legs and being mad at me for not winning the race!! If your God guides or misguides anyone, the moment he does it, he just gets the medal for being the biggest dishonest entity in existence. That is cheating, divine cheating. It makes mockery of the idea of testing or judging anyone. Not to mention that what you said about putting people in the dark is another great cop out. It is a way ANY charlatan can get away with their fraudulent claims. These frauds can all say "I have forever pushed you into darkness so you won't be able to prove my claims" whenever I ask them to provide evidence for their big claims.
Not to mention that when someone TRULY wants that you KNOW what is RIGHT and what is WRONG, they won't start playing hide and seek with you. That is what charlatans do to avoid providing evidence. Newton wanted people to know the truth, therefore he tried to tell the world and explain why and how the laws of motion, gravity, calculus works. He didn't attempt at manipulating meanings of words to make everything vague and then hide and be mad at people who questions him. That just doesn't make any sense. IF you actually care about making people know, you won't hide facts from people who are asking for them!! That is exactly what LIARS do.
You must know that quoting verses from an old book is not evidence of anything, right? Even then, since you brought them up, here is my commentary
Say, "Look at all the signs in the heavens and the earth." All the proofs and all the warnings can never help people who decided to disbelieve.
It doesn't even make sense. I looked into the heavens and this planet. Now what? Unless of course you are asking me to indulge in the logical fallacy of arguments from ignorance. It is the "I can't explain how X happened, therefore God did it" fallacy!! The following two pictures should help you understand the ridiculous juvenile absurdity
http//cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/9148130.jpg
http//cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/50124531.jpg
I will divert from My revelations those who are arrogant on earth, without justification. Consequently, when they see every kind of proof they will not believe. And when they see the path of guidance they will not adopt it as their path, but when they see the path of straying they will adopt it as their path. This is the consequence of their rejecting our proofs, and being totally heedless thereof.
First provide evidence and then we will see. You can't say that without ever giving evidence in the first place. Looking at objects in this universe isn't evidence of a sky daddy any more than looking at lighting is the evidence for Zeus throwing lighting!!
Some of them listen to you, but we place veils on their heartsto prevent them from understanding, and deafness in their ears. Thus, no matter what kind of proof they see, they cannot believe. Thus, when they come to argue with you, the disbelievers say, "These are tales from the past."
Don't you realize how this is what happens to someone who is making sht up too? Some people may believe in them while others won't. If they are referring to historical figures and supernatural things, it is normal to think of them as fairy tales and tales from past. Not to mention that only a liar will threaten something like "just believe whatever some random Arabian dude is telling you otherwise his sky daddy will seal your heart!!" This is a way of making the gullible and superstitious people fall for your Bullsht!! It is another way of telling people that they will burn in hell if they don't automatically agree you are right even before testing your claims. Only liars and charlatans need that kind of system. What makes it ironic is that the very entity who will intervene to stop your mind from knowing the truth will blame you and condemn you for not getting it!! It takes religion to even make sense of this level of absurdity. On top of that, as I've said before, first provide evidence and then we will see. You can't say that without ever giving evidence in the first place. Looking at objects in this universe isn't evidence of a sky daddy any more than looking at lighting is the evidence for Zeus throwing lighting!!
Why should God guide people who disbelieved after believing, and after witnessing that the messenger is truth, and after solid proofs* have been given to them? God does not guide the wicked.
Witnessing??? SOLID Proofs?
http//cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/50125036.jpgWriting something in a book, whether old or new, is NOT evidence for ANYTHING. Let me write here that I made your God. What now? Is this "SIGN"? or "Evidence"? This is a mere assertion. It is just a statement. Its easy to make claims if the only thing I have to do to back it up is say that I DID IT. For example, "who made the planet mars? I did it. Do you now see the planet mars? Mars is my sign!" Is this evidence of me creating Mars or claim? I know that you know that me stating it didn't make it EVIDENCE. It is a claim, so is true for that old book called Qur'an and its claims.
He is the One who continuously shows you His proofs, and sends down to you from the sky provisions. Only those who totally submit will be able to take heed.
AGAIN!!! Just like I explained earlier, making claims is not PROOF or ANYTHING!!
The reverent will take heed.
Isn't that true for every single made up Bullsh*t cult or religion on earth? The believers will of course take their cultish BS seriously.
The wicked will avoid it.
Virtually every god damn charlatan cult leader claims this kind of things. The ones who fall for their bullsh*t are supposed to be all awesome while people critical of them are "Wicked"!!! That's a complete new definition of wicked. It no longer has anything to do with being evil. If you can think for yourself and aren't gullible enough for them to exploit your naivety, you must be "wicked"!!
And remind, for the reminder benefits the believers.
Empty and meaningless. Without evidence, there is no point in reminding me of what some old desert god says about anything. It is indistinguishable from all claims from all these thousands of religions that are trying to remind me of the same common falsehood !! Even the known frauds try to warn me. What is the point of that when one refuses to provide evidence? It won't work on a thinking mind. I refuse to be that gullible.
The heavens and the earth are full of proofs for the believers.
Just like your room is full of proofs for believers of the claim that I am God? Just like I said, that kind of a statement provides as much proof of your Arab God as saying the refrigerator is full of proof of Joseph Smith proves that he was a prophet. Does that even make any sense? How is that providing proof? What has this got to do with evidence? Here is an example of how absurd these statements that you are throwing at me are
ME I can fly
You I refuse to believe it. Can you provide evidence?
ME Your kitchen cupboard is full of evidence for those who wish to believe!!DOES THAT EVEN MAKE SENSE? Let alone prove ANYTHING!!
Among His proofs is that He created you from dust, then you became reproducing humans.
That is another vague baseless assertion. I have read GENESIS and therefore know where these weird beliefs comes from. For example
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (Genesis 27, The "Holy" Bible )
Any tom dick or harry of those days would know this myth and I don't think how you can advance such a proposition to someone in the 21st century. You still haven't shown me that some "God" made me out of "dust". You just can't state random weird things without evidence.
He committed in your service everything in the heavens and the earth; all from Him. These are proofs for people who reflect.
How is believing in something so ego boosting a proof for the existence of some Arabian God? I look at the vastness of the heavens I know how insignificant I am. It teaches me to be humble and rejoice in this brief moment in time. The universe is so much greater already. And this old book is teaching you that ALL THAT is there for your entertainment or whatever? You don't see how that is something one can only believe at the height of arrogance? Before you think that I am only saying this now that I am an atheist, here is a post from the past ( July 30,2012) expressing my opinions about why we were created
Shalom Aleikhem,
In that case, I must point out that my overall idea is not like that. First thing first, I do not think that there is any evidence for the universe to exist "for us" than there is for the situation where we exist "for the universe". Probably a common trait for us humans is that we are too arrogant and instead of imagining the bigger picture, we resort to human-centric purpose/cause. The sheer size and complexity of the universe flies in the face of our arrogance.
Coming back to your question, please don't be mad if I can not provide you with anything good P
Given the way I make sense of the universe, it looks to me as if we are a very small part of a much bigger picture. We could be the non-avoidable by product of this universe.
So clearly, even as a theist, I would have pointed out the arrogance in such thinking.
Among His proofs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquility and contentment with each other, and He placed in your hearts love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are sufficient proofs for people who think.
We can love and care and we have sex. That is evidence that some arab guy about 1400 years ago was right about saying that he was chosen to be a messenger of some God that supposedly created the universe? Are you trolling me? This is the same as this example
Me I can fly
You Prove it
Me You have to use the toilet and eat stuff. You also like hanging out with friends. This is proof for people who think.How in the world is those random facts proof for either your God existing or me flying? Come on, you must be able to do better than this.
Among His proofs are the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the variations in your languages and your colors. In these, there are signs for the knowledgeable.
Me I can fly
You Prove it
Me Among my proof are the creation of baby seals, and the variation of foods you guys have the variation in taste for music you guys have. In these, there are signs from Me. )Does that prove to you that I can fly? Or that I created baby seals? If not, please respect my intelligence and don't ever bring up such meaningless quotes that proves nothing.
Among His proofs is your sleeping during the night or the day, and your working in pursuit of His provisions. In this, there are sufficient proofs for people who can hear.
Me I can fly
You Prove it
Me Among my proof is you walking during the day or night, and your playing of sports in pursuit of my provisions. In this, there are sufficient proofs for people who can hear.It should be obvious to see how all these quotes not only proves ANYTHING AT ALL, even you won't accept my claims of being able to fly if I said similar things to you like your old book says to me. It is embarrassing how these "prophets" with BIG claims fail so hard under the scrutiny of a thinking mind that doesn't resort to faith.
Among His proofs is that He shows you the lightning as a source of fear, as well as hope, then He sends down from the sky water to revive a land that has been dead. In these, there are sufficient proofs for people who understand.
Me I can fly
You Prove it
Me Among my proofs is that water makes you afraid and happy, then I send you the northern wind to cool stuff down after heating them up. In these, there are sufficient proofs for people who understand.So clever, aren't I? I totally proved I can fly. I also proved that I must have made water and wind. I am in love with this Qur'anic method. Really!! No evidence required, nothing!! Just state it and they will believe!!
Among His proofs is that the heaven and the earth are standing at His disposal. Finally, when He calls you out of the earth, one call, you will immediately come out.
Me I can fly
You Prove it
Me Among my proofs is that trees and rocks are just waiting for listening to my directions. Finally, when I call you out of the planet, just one call baby!! you will immediately come out.This is really getting fun. I like how I am not having to provide
a) any evidence to back up the claim that I CAN FLY
b) I can just keep on asserting that I can do things and create things and they automatically become true without demonstration.Among His proofs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the creatures He spreads in them. He is able to summon them, when He wills.
Me I can fly
You Prove it
Me Among My proofs is the creation of Jupiter and Neptune, and the matter what I spread there. I am able to summon them, when I will.Am I not proving everything here? From the claim that I can fly to creating virtually everything!! I am proving it all, right?
Brother ,you have the choice and you are entitled to disbelieve in the vreator of all that you can see.
Yes Sister, I do have the choice. In fact, the way these religions, scriptures and religious philosophies are, I am left with virtually no choice but to disbelief.
Please do not take anything personal, I do not know your future thoughts , whether you will change them again, I will hope that you will find the truth?
I won't. Let me hope that you won't take things personally too. I am only trying to defend/explain my position. I'll hope that we all do find the truth, everyone. Starting with the conclusion is not a good way of research. In the quest for truth, I am willing to throw away everything I ever believed in if the evidence points me to a reality that shows me that I was wrong. I can not do this honest research by starting with assumptions like
- There is a God
- There are no Gods
- X religion is right
- X religion is wrong
My default answer is that I DON'T KNOW. Therefore I don't believe either way. I have not yet been presented with sufficient evidence to beleive in ANY GOD whatsoever. The time to believe is AFTER I get the evidence, not BEFORE.
In friendship and hope.
Peace.Yes my friend, lets hope for the good and so that we all may remain friendly and have peace in life. If we can not attain peace, everything else is in vain!
PEACE
--------------- Student of Allah -
Shalom Aleikhem Man of Faith,
And that one God will not punish you either if you have a good way of being. The "believe in me" part is arguable if not one does if they are righteous.
If what you are trying to say is that I could believe or not believe, as long as I am a good person, it doesn't matter, then what can I say? Thank you. You seem to be a lot more of a rational peaceful person than those models of desert Gods. Although it makes me curious as to why bother with old books and religion at all when one is fine without it!
Either way, the option to believe that there is a Master above or not is up to each of us and it is quite personal and we are responsible only for ourselves. Only reason I have understood that one is to interfere in someone else system is if they oppress others or do something atrocious.
Live and let live!! Yes my friend, I agree. There is wisdom in what you are saying.
So feel free not to believe in a god and believe that we just happen to exist out of nothing in some funny way. I cannot force you to believe in anyway, but if I see you oppress or misbehave that it causes damage then I can try to stop you from doing that, with the best way possible in equality or less.
http//www.snappypixels.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/oh-no-you-didnt-28.jpg
I didn't provide any reason as to why something exists rather than nothing. Although I am aware of Big Bang cosmology and The theory of Evolution, I didn't even bring them up. Why are you trying to strawman my position here? Did I say anything funny about existence? I didn't so please refrain from trying to mock something I didn't even say.
It feels a bit unkind to indirectly say that people are suckers for believing in a creating force within the galaxies that is high above everyone else and controlling the world as we know it, and which is randomly selecting exceptional people to receive signs of it as a mercy in a kind of hidden game. Not saying at all why the Force has created this world because that is beyond my understanding. For all I "feel" is that it wants me to be a good one and "meld" with it and that I understand how small I really am inside this realm.
Well, its not actually unkind. I think it would be unkind to just stay quiet or not engage when people are falling for obvious charlatans. I am sorry and I apologize to anyone that I have hurt through my words. I am passionate about the subject and I do speak out against evil whenever I can detect it. It is nothing personal. Except for few rare and exceptional cases, I do always say what I mean. I do not wish to sugarcoat things. Therefore it becomes challenging to not call a spade a spade. I do not find anything intelligent or smart about positing belief in any untested old book that claims to know the answers to the biggest questions we could ever ask.
The benefits of being "in symbiosis" with this creating force are all the "buffs" that come with it, but it works much like Star Wars than the old sectarian knowings.
I am afraid I don't even know what "Force" you are talking about. I can testify to the existence of this universe. I haven't seen beyond it and will therefore refrain from dishonestly claiming knowledge or foolishly positing beliefs on what lies beyond it.
So you say God behaves like a terrorist in the recited words? Well, one can understand that a person has to pay for the crimes they have done (because it is the ill-doings that we are punished for) and sectarianism is responsible for much of the views that the "Arabian God" accepts only a certain group of people. I have not completely bought the traditional Quranic understanding that God places anyone in Hell, but that these people are simply too weak for any other fate. Except that without God's light there is already Hell on Earth. Hell could as well be the original Earth after God's grace left it.
You are talking about people being judged from doing evil things. I was talking about people being judged for merely not believing in the existence of a God because they were not convinced. On top of that, you say that you don't subscribe to the idea of hell. Well then, I don't know.... I am really lost for words. Well at least, I am happy that your brain is healthier in comparison to those who sit there and praise a vicious monster who created hell and will put a lot of people there. To be honest, not even Adolph Hitler deserves eternity in hell. That just makes a mockery out of the concept of Justice. If there is no balance between the crime and the sentence, it can not be justice. It just becomes another tyrannical authority's will. No one should then dare call it "justice".
Well. It is men that has shaped the pathetic shape of world religions and not God.
http//i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/007/666/_57c8a1a431a592af806925e57258202f.png
OF COURSE!! You think that as a non-believer in the existence of any Gods/Deities I don't know that its actually PEOPLE who do crazy stuff in the name of Gods? People got away with horrendous evil in the name of these gods. They still do get away with a lot. They read these same books as you Jews/Christians/Muslims do. Don't get me wrong, I know that people like you will not read the Qur'an and try to go chop off people's hands for theft or beat their wives. You will use the magic of RATIONALIZING via word games. The argument goes something like this
- God is good
- God meant something else
- People misunderstood
- People did evil
- Now you think God said evil things
That is irrelevant given that your arab God is all knowing and all powerful. He knew in advance how everything will be interpreted by most of the people throughout the ages. He knew that most people will end up interpreting it the way the orthodoxy/traditionalists do. Despite knowing that and having the power to be more clear and concise, your God failed to communicate his desire effectively. Are you telling me that we can write things in our constitutions and legal documents protecting women and people that your God couldn't? We can make it clear to the point that nobody misreads them to the point of making chopping of people's hands the standard and your God can't do that? The vast majority of people do not misunderstand the constitutional rights and legal matters but they do in case of religion. This is because these old books are vague to start with. Given that every word can have multiple meanings and every sentence is essentially a slave to the reader's opinions, you can come up with infinite number of interpretations. Even then, our man made constitutions are FAR SUPERIOR. It never happened that the vast majority read their rights and went on doing evil because they misunderstood the constitution and thousand years later a few people discovered the True Meaning of the Constitution!! If such never happens for something mankind made up and tries to protect and put into action, why do you think it happens for something A GOD made and WANTS TO PROTECT and put into action?
An alleged man, like anyone else, called Muhammad composed what we traditionally refer to as "Qur'an" and he composed it to the best of his understanding out of likely inspiration. True and correct information is up to each of us to accept or not, but we should know that it may contains errors as a fallible man composed it. It could have been me or it could have been you
God bless you
http//3.bp.blogspot.com/-RntbQYfeE4Y/Uh4FF9edKoI/AAAAAAAAC00/OWZGwQ4afCs/s1600/bow.jpg
For the part I highlighted in blue There is nothing in there that requires inspiration. Thinkers and philosphers throughout the ages have written things which contain less irational contents and makes more sense than this old book. It is the work of man/men like every book ever written.
Peace
----------------- Student of Allah -
Shalom Aleikhem Jafar,
Very true, although I want to revise towards
"Religion exploits the tendency of the greedy primate brain has towards believing of benefit that he/she will get for doing something for the sake of the religious elite".Makes no difference for me. That is because whether you are doing it for the sake of "religious elite" or some "high and mighty creator" is the same for me. That's not a good reason to do or not do good or evil. Doing things purely to please higher authority, aka kissing a*s, isn't that respectable of a thing to do according to my humble opinion.
Again it depends on one definition of God.
If God is an object exist and confined within this universe's time and space then such thing is not God.-
There are as many definitions/concepts of God as there are believers of God. You just defined yet another god, your god.
-
The definition you are suggesting is a clever one. This lets you push your God out of scope of falsifiability. Every time I will try to test it, you can always say that "its outside the universe". It is comparable to my claim of being able to be invisible when no one is observing/testing me. That is a very convenient characteristic to have. No one will even know if I am lying, mad or actually right!!
-
You are not allowed to define things into existence. Let me give you an example of that
I created X. X is the creator of Gods that don't know their past. Therefore, by definition, your God must have been created by X and hence I am your God's creator's creator. See how easy it is to become creators of things (or even destroyers for that matter) whenever I am allowed to define things into existence? Another example can be God is the sound a raindrop makes as it hits the surface of the Earth!! There you go, someone just tried to bring their God into existance by calling an event "god". In your case, you are doing something similar. I have to ask you, have you tested the universe or went beyond it to at least see what you are talking about? If you didn't, then your model of God isn't any more justifiable than a model that includes the universe as a part of God.
It's actually the most important lesson to learn.
Learning and remembering how many atrocities has been performed in the past for or due to the sake of religion.
One will end up on a conclusion on "Why religion was invented in the first place".Personally, given the propensity of our minds to believe, I think it was inevitable that we will take an attempt at attributing "conscious agency" behind things we can't explain. For example, "Where does lighting come from? Someone must be throwing it". Then it is just a matter of time before these beliefs gets passed on from generation to generation. We are complex beings, it shouldn't take us much to come up with religion.
It's interesting you mentioned the word "soul".
What is a "soul"?By soul I meant a person. The last time I believed that human beings had an immaterial part/spirit that can live without the body is around 2008 I think. Anyway, that is unnecessary information.
What is this "biggest questions that humanity has asked?".
I was talking about big questions such as the origins of the heaven and the earth, the nature of reality, where we came from, where are we headed, etc.
It makes me curious what is your definition of God as such you don't believe in it/his existence?
By God I am referring to the higher power that supposedly originated the heavens and the earth and takes personal interest in the lives of members of one sub-species of apes among trillions of species of animals from one planet circling one sun which is one among 200 billion in our milky way galaxy which happens to be one out of hundreds of billions of galaxies!! Some modeled this God as one, while others modeled this higher power as modular with multiple parts or even as multiple gods. The relatively less misogynistic cultures didn't mind modelling it as female at times. There are almost as many definition/understanding of God and interpretation of religion/scripture as there are followers.
According to a chinese who lived about 2600 years ago.
His definition of "God" is There's something in existence even before time and space was created.
As thus this "God" is not dependent towards time and space.
Infact time and space itself was created.Me and many of today's scientist agree with the above statement.
We know now that the event named "Big bang" was not an explosion of matter into space, it was actually the initial expansion of this universe time and space.There is a contradiction there between the two things I highlighted in red. According to the second thing you said, the universe EXPANDED. So, it was essentially ALREADY THERE. Otherwise, WHAT EXPANDED? If it was already there, then the "was created part" makes no sense. On top of that, no one ever proved it was CREATION. The word "CREATION" is in a way loaded. It assumes a CREATOR. Which you haven't demonstrated. So I am not comfortable in using that term to express the expansion of the universe from a singularity. I hope you understand why that is so due to intellectual honesty.
However this pose a difficulty, how to prove something exist towards a being living in this universe's time and space?
If that something which has to be proven is not confined within this universe's time and space?You should go back and read what I wrote about defining things into existence. I can come up with a lot of non-falsifiable ideas. That doesn't make them true. It just makes them not falsifiable. The burden of proof will still be on the person claiming that the thing does exist. For example. Let me claim now that there is a shoe that is beyond this universe. What now? Does it make sense to believe in it just because its beyond this universe? On top of that, God doesn't have to be inside the universe for us to validate its existence. For example, you can pray for a Ferrari in God's name and we will test the result. We will repeat it multiple times by different people throughout the globe to validate that prayers work. In a similar fashion, we can theorize God bit by bit. Of course none of that is possible for something that doesn't exist to begin with.
But again, how does that matter anyway? Why is that important?
Its not and I have explained why.
Let's take a smaller conception of let's say the "Big Bang" event itself.
How does believing or not believing in this event called the "Big Bang" has to do with being good or evil?
To me it's irrelevant.. feel free to believe or not believe the "Big Bang" event did occurred.Hmm, I do agree.
Usually it's the "believer of such God" that shall punish you.
For example
Abraham doesn't believe in the Marduk God, the follower of Marduk burned him at the stake.Well, trust me, as an atheist I'd never assume that a God is doing it. It was men who wrote those things and men who abused those things.
Truth doesn't need any protection, falsehood does..
Unless you live under shariah
It's not a crime at all, how could believing or not believing in something be a crime??
The human brain has this tendency to obey to whatever evil horrendous things an authority figure says. It is the "might makes you right" philosophy that they apply there. I am currently having a back and forth in this very thread with such a person who thinks that
a) its a crime to not be able to believe in the existence of a God
b) it is RIGHT then for that God to throw you in a lake of fire ( Praise be to God, infinitely merciful, isn't he? )I know, you don't buy into all that. It is sad that many does. Just say "its from God" and the sheep will follow!! Pardon me trying to comment on it Quranically (made this word up) Deaf dumb and blind, they do not comprehend!! These are the people that make it possible for the zealot mullahs to do the atrocities. Mullah's come up with one horrible idea after another and these people are like "SubhanAllah, lets do it!"
Peace
--------------- Student of Allah -
-
Shalom Aleikhem huruf,
Prove God? ?Prove love? What is God that you can prove? What is love that you can prove?
That is fallacious reasoning my friend. Its Apples and oranges. You simply can't categorize those two things and compare them. One is a feeling and the other is an entity. While I can refuse to believe that you a person has feelings for me, I cannot refuse to believe in their existence. One is subjective and the other is objective. Whether a God, an entity, exists or not is not a matter of subjective feelings or opinions. It is a matter of fact. Either it exists or it doesn't. Your subjective feelings and emotions are irrelevant here. This is an example of what you are doing here
Me I have a dog
You If your dog exists, please show me. Prove it to me
Me Prove Dog? ?Prove love? What is Dog that you can prove? What is love that you can prove?You simply did a category mistake there and that is fallacious reasoning. Of course if you convert your entity on trial into a feeling, one will never be able to objectively verify it's truth.
This kind of debate is pitiful, finally it revolves about words and what each person puts into them. How is anybody going to prove that what I have in my mind under any word at all exists or doe snot exist.
I disagree that its pitiful. Given the impact of "God beliefs" in human civilisation, I don't think a close examination of the topic is in vain. We can always learn from it. And...How will anyone provide evidence for their God? Just the same way you show your identification documents at airports or prove someone murdered someone in a courtroom trial. We do all of that with evidence and sound reasoning. Your line of reasoning implies that just because we cannot be a 100% certain about the accuracy of our mental model of the external universe, therefore there is no requirement of proving anything. I am sure you won't say that to me if I stole your things in front of you. I am sure you wont say "how do I know that what image I have in my mind exists or not therefore the person can also be totally not-stealing my things"!! These are distractions that I hate that misleads people. Nobody behaves like this in any other domain. As soon as they are put on trial to defend dogmatic beliefs, they start throwing these meaningless absurdities at the critic to get a way with unjustifiable beliefs in weird things.
Any proof of anything at all can only be provided for things that are within our reach, not for things that are not. Therefore, by definition nobody can prove God, and if they could prove it it would not be God. However one can experience things that are not within one's reach.
Yes, much like my invisible pet unicorn that is beyond this universe. It is an all knowing, all powerful invisible pet unicorn. It is beyond our universe thus beyond your reach. But I can experience my relationship with it even though its beyond my reach. Please understand why I can't prove to you that it is for real.
If you can't take that unicorn seriously, don't expect anyone to take your God seriously.
Peace
------------------ Student of Allah -
Shalom Aleikhem Jafar,
Makes no difference for me. That is because whether you are doing it for the sake of "religious elite" or some "high and mighty creator" is the same for me. That's not a good reason to do or not do good or evil. Doing things purely to please higher authority, aka kissing a*s, isn't that respectable of a thing to do according to my humble opinion.True, that's why I always admire the good atheist.
They're doing good deed for the sake of good deed, not for any 'reward' such as 72 virgins..
And they didn't do the bad deed because they hate the bad deed.And not all religious group are Theist, the Buddhist for example can be the non-theist religious group.
Although they're not Atheist,- There are as many definitions/concepts of God as there are believers of God. You just defined yet another god, your god.
People do have thousands or million varying definiton of God.
Although sad to say that my God or should I say my definition of God is not new at all.
The chinese and indians came up with the same idea at least 3500 years ahead of me.
The Israelites came up with the same idea at least 3000 years ahead of me.
And many others also beats me ahead on it..And the majority of the people who believe in God doesn't even know what is their own definition of God..
It's like, I believe in "KUTIZATI" although I don't know what "KUTIZATI" really is.
I just believe in "KUTIZATI" because everyone else told me to believe in it.
And if somebody said that they don't believe in "KUTIZATI" it freaks me out.
Because it will shake my belief in "KUTIZATI" because honestly I don't know what the heck "KUTIZATI" really is.As thus my question to you (which you haven't answered) is
WHAT IS YOUR DEFINITION OF GOD?
As such you believe in it's non-existence.
- The definition you are suggesting is a clever one. This lets you push your God out of scope of falsifiability. Every time I will try to test it, you can always say that "its outside the universe". It is comparable to my claim of being able to be invisible when no one is observing/testing me. That is a very convenient characteristic to have. No one will even know if I am lying, mad or actually right!!
On contrary, my God is both outside and inside this universe.
It's here there everywhere and beyond.
Given to the fact that the fabric of space and time itself is a creation.. and it/he has no dependency towards the fabric of space and time in order to exist.I have to ask you, have you tested the universe or went beyond it to at least see what you are talking about? If you didn't, then your model of God isn't any more justifiable than a model that includes the universe as a part of God.
By soul I meant a person. The last time I believed that human beings had an immaterial part/spirit that can live without the body is around 2008 I think. Anyway, that is unnecessary information.
Your two statement above is correlated to each other.
So yes, whenever I sleep I left this universe.
I've lost any sense of space and time during such period.
Yet I continue to exist, or at least I'm aware that I'm exist.
The evidence is I experienced things during such state, human named such phenomenon as "dreaming".
During such state I lost any sense of this universe space and time.
When I returned to this universe, I need to do some 'recalling', where am I (Space) and what date/time is it (Time).Some said that the 'soul' is "God's breath".. thus a sage named God as "Father", the source of existence.
Proving the "soul" existence is the same as proving "God's existence".
In a sense that both doesn't require time and space in order to exist.I find it odd to find people who believe in existence of soul also believe in the non-existence of God.
"Where does lighting come from? Someone must be throwing it". Then it is just a matter of time before these beliefs gets passed on from generation to generation. We are complex beings, it shouldn't take us much to come up with religion.
True all religion are human invention.
Yet religion has no correlation with God or God's existence..I was talking about big questions such as the origins of the heaven and the earth, the nature of reality, where we came from, where are we headed, etc.
We have the answer to such question already as we speak.
Heaven (such as stars, planet and galaxy) and earth is a matter.
Matter made up of atomic particles.
Atomic particle requires the fabric time and space in order to exist.
Time and space was created or initially expanded after the Big Bang.That was the beginning. Or should I say the Big Bang was the event that is the beginning of time.
Before the big bang the fabric of time and space doesn't exist.The definition of the end of this universe is clear, it will be the destruction of space and time.
An event where space and time will no longer be exist.
Because space and time no longer exist, so does everything that depends on it, such as matter (earth, human, living being, stars etc..)How it shall happened I subscribed to two scenario, it could be either a "Big Crunch"
Where space and time "shrink" into the state of singularity (where it was once before the big bang).
Or the "Big Rip" where space and time "ripped apart" into the state of singularity. (where it was once before the big bang).The video that discuss the matter
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYc8iRyL7YUThe information pose another question.
What exist before the big bang and what exist after the big crunch/big rip?There is a contradiction there between the two things I highlighted in red. According to the second thing you said, the universe EXPANDED. So, it was essentially ALREADY THERE. Otherwise, WHAT EXPANDED? If it was already there, then the "was created part" makes no sense. On top of that, no one ever proved it was CREATION. The word "CREATION" is in a way loaded. It assumes a CREATOR. Which you haven't demonstrated. So I am not comfortable in using that term to express the expansion of the universe from a singularity. I hope you understand why that is so due to intellectual honesty.
What do you mean by it was already there??
Universe or should I say the fabric of space and time is still expanding.
Well we don't know for sure as per "current" situation since time itself is relative.The more correct statement is actually
Based on the information that we received now which is telling of what actually happened billions years ago, due to the billion light years distance between our planet and the observed object such as another galaxies, the universe is still expanding at least until billion years ago.As for the "Singularity" state, such state can be observed on the center of our own galaxy.
The black hole.
Black hole is a phenomenon where space and time (and everything that depends on it) just 'disappear'.
By the word 'disappear' it means "Infinite Mass and Zero Volume".Within the black hole, all of the (God's) law on this universe ceased to be true (or enforced).
Law of gravity, Law of Thermodynamics etc..
The black hole is mind boggling, yet it's true and it exist.You should go back and read what I wrote about defining things into existence. I can come up with a lot of non-falsifiable ideas. That doesn't make them true. It just makes them not falsifiable. The burden of proof will still be on the person claiming that the thing does exist.
In a similar fashion, we can theorize God bit by bit. Of course none of that is possible for something that doesn't exist to begin with.
As such you have to provide proof on why you believe in the non-existence of God.
First by sharing what's your definition of God.There's a difference between Atheist (Believing of the non-existence of God) and non-Theist. (Doesn't discuss it at all).
The Non-Theist doesn't need to provide proof but Atheist does...
The Buddhist is among the "Non-Theist".For example. Let me claim now that there is a shoe that is beyond this universe. What now? Does it make sense to believe in it just because its beyond this universe?
Yes it could be something beyond this universe..
Infact there could be trillion of other universe..On top of that, God doesn't have to be inside the universe for us to validate its existence. For example, you can pray for a Ferrari in God's name and we will test the result. We will repeat it multiple times by different people throughout the globe to validate that prayers work.
There has been an experiment on the case above.
And it shows no correlation.Your statement that "Praying is an act to persuade God to do human's will" is due to influence of your culture or religion.
Specifically "Mediterranean" culture and religion.Praying also known as Meditating is actually an act to prepare oneself to what shall be happening.
Also known as to peacefully accept God's will.
As God's will shall happened anyway...
The true objective of praying and meditating is to obtain peace within the prayer..With such understanding of the objective of praying / meditating.
There has been another experiment to test the hypothesis of "Does praying/meditating really brings peace to the prayer?"
The result is positive, praying/meditating resulted in- Lower heart rate and blood pressure
- Less activity in the brain
- Boost Oxytocin, the hormone who is responsible for the feelings of empathy and peace within Mammals.
Unless you live under shariah P
I have said before on this forum that the Islamist God is a fake God, Islamist God doesn't exist.
Why?
Because, their God is so weak as such the God need human's help to enforce His own law / decree.
And Islamist God's law is so ridiculous that it governed meticulous thing such as "head covers", "no peeing facing Kabba" etc..Of course those Shariah law was actually human invented law.
Otherwise all of those law will be automatically enforced, such as the law of gravity, the law of thermodynamics etc..
The above is the True God's law.b) it is RIGHT then for that God to throw you in a lake of fire ( Praise be to God, infinitely merciful, isn't he? ) )
I have pondered on why the "tone" of the Tanakh and the Quran is so harsh with "Behave or Suffer" ultimatum.
Then during watching of the video, which one member of this forum posted about the brutality of the ISIS in Iraq.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQSDeZxrLsUI understand why it is so..
Because that specific "tone" is the only mode of communication that works towards such brutal people.
For such brutal people the brutal mode of communication is the only suitable mode of communication.Salam / Peace
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I have said before on this forum that the Islamist God is a fake God, Islamist God doesn't exist.
Why?
Because, their God is so weak as such the God need human's help to enforce His own law / decree.
And Islamist God's law is so ridiculous that it governed meticulous thing such as "head covers", "no peeing facing Kabba" etc..Your reason is strange
Otherwise all of those law will be automatically enforced, such as the law of gravity, the law of thermodynamics etc..
The above is the True God's law.It's realm of knowledge, even it's true, it's invented by the humans.
If God gave all the formulas of mathematic, physics or other sciences explicitly in the Scripture, then this make human lazy for researches, not productive because already written in Scripture.