Jose Mujica - Atheist
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Student of Allah,
There is no stupid Arab God only a force in the galaxies. Why do you throw that shit in my face?
Believe in a supernatural force or not but please behave better around here will you? Do not see me like a stup diot because I believe that there is an intelligent maker of sorts to this.
I have his scripture "Quran" because it seemed like a rational person wrote it that was inspired by he force that left signs here on Earth. And that was not the only people this force came to either but there are remainders of faith around the globe in Asian faiths and the Native Americans etc, so you make me boil when you say my stupid Arab God because you put me in a folder like I follow Islam which I do not but I only follow that force and whatever guidance I found. I could not care less about an Arab god that wants to kill disbelievers and things that are not even supported by the recitation by alleged Muhammad.
"My" damn scripture is not the problem here at all and I came to the force before I had EVER read a book called Quran and that was while philosophizing about my own existence. And I can believe without a freaking book and I can believe despite your words to mock me and ridicule how I can believe in an Arab god. This damn "religion" does not even have a name but is just faith in X and Islam was just the kind of mission like in establish balance as a system.
The force wants good people that are good by heart and not those who follow some darn scripture by heart and that was the test from the start. The system in society should be good, fair with justice and evil should be prevented as in save people from oppression. Do good and believe that is the only message from a scripture called "Quran" worth remembering and some obvious rules already deeply known to man like do not murder, lie or treat others unfairly which already fall under the category of be good.
That book you do not appreciate contains mostly of reasons to believe and I liked the similitudes. It does not teach much to someone already good at heart but you can always be reminded. And it was aimed towards a crowd more than a millennium ago so it is not for us directly but you can trace signs from it and understand the mission. And the decree is the same to us.
If you do not like that book then practice your faith without it but do something good and live in symbiosis with your creator.
I do not believe in a coincidental evolution that just came into existence on its own. That is my logic.
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Peace Student of Allah.
Thank you for the time and effort spent to answer everyone.
I agree with you.You have made your decision and good luck.
Brother, I have also made my decision., I cannot go back. I really believe GOD when He says
If you backslide, after the clear proofs have come to you, then know that God is Almighty, Most Wise.
Are they waiting until God Himself comes to them in dense clouds, together with the angels? When this happens, the whole matter will be terminated, and to God everything will be returned.Take care.
Peace. -
Brother, I have also made my decision., I cannot go back. I really believe GOD when He says
If you backslide, after the clear proofs have come to you, then know that God is Almighty, Most Wise.
Are they waiting until God Himself comes to them in dense clouds, together with the angels? When this happens, the whole matter will be terminated, and to God everything will be returned.Take care.
Peace.sun
I'm glad, good logic! groupPeace.
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Peace,
I cannot back down either. The Master has blessed me and I feel no doubt whatsoever. It does not matter what anyone would say because the signs I have seen are too strong. It is pointless to argue with me about that, but I wish that those who do not believe could see the truth as I see it and the signs that I see. And most are saying about my Master things that are blatant lies such as tyranny and indecency based on "scriptural evidence" which is in its turn based on lackluster translations/interpretations.
What is 'Arab god' for God's sake? Warning Insult attempt in ignorance.
It is more illogical and senseless to believe that all out of nothing a whole universe was created without any assistance of kind. The probability, even including the vast size of cosmos, that life would develop haphazardly is virtually nonexistent. No background intelligence and just evolution with no ultimate goal. Some smart people understood that in the past (see Muhammad) and they wrote a recitation. It does not matter that Muhammad wrote it with or without guidance, because he grasped something quite unique, sadly enough, among humans. And few people are really believers even if they say they are, not without polluting their faith in various ways.
Heck even Ebrahem thousands of years ago discovered the truth before any text-based information was available. This near stone age person grasped more than people with all their fancy science. Science is even based around a creation which was designed by my Master, not the other way around. And ask me to use science to explain and confirm something that stands above the world as we know it is ridiculous. And those faithless can prove to me that The Master does not exist. The other way around. And you shall never do this because the signs of the Creator are too inevitable.
It is word against word. The Master is invisible due to a test and no one can prove anything to the other. So stop ridiculing those who believe without knowledge. Is it not better to have faith in something rather than think that you are born and then you die to never exist again? You could as well kill yourself right away because your life serves no purpose. No result score or nothing.
There is always an action preceeding a condition which you should remember. Search your feelings. Feel the Force surround you. It is in all living creatures. In the birds. In the trees. In you. What keeps it running?
How do the birds fly? Why is that?
What keeps the ships from sinking? How is that?
Why is life carbon based?
What created laws of gravity?
Why is electricity produced? What created electricity? Did evolution create electricity?
What is fire? What is light?
If a supernatural force is not present how can single cells develop into something more sophisticated and knowing which path to take to develop into a more advanced being? What caused it to become intelligent enough to know how to behave? What created this intelligence in the cell?
Answer those questions and I know you will not be able to and I fear for you a troublesome day. It is the adherents to science solely that are ignorant fools just as those who ignore science. A balance in the Force is what you shall seek. It became sweaty now that your miniscule knowledge cannot explain it, yes?
The reason you are not to know the One that created all this, that let it come into existence, is to first reveal your true character or otherwise it would be too easy would it not? Signs are plentiful already as shown above except that you cannot prove this tremendous energy because it is simply like your brainwaves. Try to read those.
It is just a game. And your game has just game over and no reprisals while mine has a score table with real effects connected to the score. If you know 1 + 1 you realize that you are going to return to "someone" as your energy will just as The Master not disappear. And scientists theorize there will be a big implosion after the big explosion and that is just what is going to happen. Mountains folded like paper, that is truly true. And to The Master everything will return, including the energies of the "dead" people which may be saddening to you without reformation.
And know that nothing of which I spoke is from an Arabic book called Quran. And know the Master's "pen" does never run out of ink. Even George Lucas may carry out The Master's will without perceiving as signs.
Good night. Too late at night just to write about The Master's mission. Oh well, for that I could stay up all night, but well I think I conveyed the right words.
God bless you
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I cannot back down either. The Master has blessed me and I feel no doubt whatsoever. It does not matter what anyone would say because the signs I have seen are too strong. It is pointless to argue with me about that, but I wish that those who do not believe could see the truth as I see it and the signs that I see.
sun
Happy to know it, brother! groupAnd most are saying about my Master things that are blatant lies such as tyranny and indecency based on "scriptural evidence" which is in its turn based on lackluster translations/interpretations.
Indeed.
Peace.
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Hello Everyone,
I am brand new to this forum, and am somewhat intimidated to contribute to this discussion, as things seem heated and emotional, however, I cannot help but see that there seems to be a miscommunication of sorts going on between others and the desperately-wanting-to-be-understood, SoA. I in no way want to "rock the boat" or pick sides, but I feel as if SoA is speaking out of reason and rational thought. He/she doesn't seem to be emotional-SoA is just seeking honesty. She/he has asked for evidences or proofs for claims and has been met with, primarily, emotional responses.
I think what it comes down to is truth. Whether SoA is right or ManofFaith is or Jafar is or JavaLatte is, etc etc, we are all on here in search of truth; we are NOT searching for subjective truth (which can not exist), but OBJECTIVE truth. Whether I believe I am a mailbox or not, I am not a mailbox. Even if I believe with all of my heart that I am a mailbox, and I claim that to be true, the fact of the matter is that I am NOT one.
Overall, I have come to the conclusion that people of religion = people of faith. We pride ourselves on having faith in the unseen and allow our emotions to play an VERY large role in our relationship with our God (whether that be an "essence", a "force", an omnipotent being, etc). In order to be as honest and truthful as possible, we need to be sure to say to ourselves at the end of the day "it comes down to faith".
When reading Quranic "proofs", it can end up seeming like cheating a bit. I feel oftentimes as if in order to look for these proofs, we started with the conclusion and then worked our way backwards. As science evolves, we continue to "find" miracles in the Quran by looking back at things and twisting them to fit the recent discoveries of science. I find creating these links to be fun and interesting BUT to regard them as FACTUAL proofs seems, as SoA would put it, "undeniably unfalsifiable".
Ultimately, the fact of the matter is that I have NO evidence to prove that an Arab God exists. Or a Jewish one. Or a Christian one. Or a Greek one. Or any of the Hindu gods. I can believe with all my heart that my God exists, but the hard evidence just is not present at this time and place. Perhaps in future with the development of science, we will discover something, but the HONEST truth is that right now, we have nothing to offer up to atheists in the way of physical/honest/rational proofs.
That doesn't make God less real for the believers.
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Ultimately, the fact of the matter is that I have NO evidence to prove that an Arab God exists. Or a Jewish one. Or a Christian one. Or a Greek one. Or any of the Hindu gods. I can believe with all my heart that my God exists, but the hard evidence just is not present at this time and place. Perhaps in future with the development of science, we will discover something, but the HONEST truth is that right now, we have nothing to offer up to atheists in the way of physical/honest/rational proofs.
That doesn't make God less real for the believers.
So am I. . therefore I don't believe in God.
I believe in God when I see Him with my eyes , when I talk to God . . .
Until that time , I don't understand what is God. . and therefore I don't believe in God.
. . .
The reason ?
Premise 1 Allah is not God
Say ?He is Allah, One,? ?Allah, the Absolute,? ?He does not beget, nor was He begotten,? ?And there is none who are His equal.? (112)
The interpretation of Allah/God in the Quran is subjected to the "definition clause of Allah" in the Quran . . . ie. not God.
Premise 2 Allah is the Mutasyaabihat
He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are governing verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which are similar. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say ?We believe in it, all is from our Lord.? And none will remember except the people of understanding. (3.7)
This is useless from the aspect of to believe in "God", and for the following verse. . .
Premise 3 Allah said I don't believe in God
The Nomads said ?We believe.? Say ?You have not believed; but you should say ?We have submitted?, for belief has not yet entered into your hearts.? If you obey God and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. God is Forgiver, Merciful. (49.14)
"You have not believed", meaning they don't believe in "Allah" etc. . . faith is "0".
. . .
Therefore, I can lie to myself and say I believe in God accordance to verse 3.7 but it is useless. It is not really what we called "belief". In facts , I might as well believe "I am God" (they have locked my thread) since there is nothing exists but God. For all these reasons , it is useless for me to deceive myself and say I believe in God when I don't even see God. It is lying and does not contribute anything to real growth of humanity other than creating more sects and denominations, and the killing of each other. . .ie. corruption!
And when it is said to them,
"Do not cause corruption on the earth," <- creating sectarianism, the ideology of "I'm right, you're wrong!", Bigot!
they say, "We are but reformers." <- because they think it is religion, it is what God want.
Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters <- kill others for "religion" and on the issue of what is God etc
but they perceive not. <- this is stupidity !
211-12Deaf, dumb and blind - so they will not return.
2.18I better waste my time thinking about the practical way of life rather getting deep into illusion and creating more divisions after the other. My truth . . . the meaning of "believe God in the Quran is not about believing in God" . . but about to believe in the clear and practical commands and prohibitions of Allah in the Quran. It is about those commands/prohibitions. . not God !
. . .
Conclusion. . . I don't believe in God , and the Quran speaks about the "Deen"
The Deen of Islam is about "practical way of life".
It is not about "submission", it is about the system to "assimilate" with all religions, ie. life!! ("What is Islam?" (they have locked my thread))
It is our life. . . today, not previous and not the future . . . neither it is about life in paradise or hell. .
It is at this moment , and use it wisely because it our "Deen" , and it is "Islam" !
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Peace,
I gave reasons why it is illogical not to be an intelligence behind all this. The traditional concept of a neanderthal god that needs to be primitively pleased is not true however. Not all emotional, but a quite intensive post with a show of strategy as to how to attack the foolish arguments to say there is no supernatural force responsible for this existence. I accept those who still say that there is no intelligent being hiding, but they should not be so darn right about their certainty that there is no godlike entity a d then say an armada of reasons why it is so idiotic to believe in a god being based on arguments from some stupid book while the truth is not in some kind of book but in existence itself. It is so ignorant to say there is no such similar intelligence behind it because of reasons mentioned in my previous post even if that "god" does not have a persona like traditionalists portray.
And cells on an extremely primitive level needs a blueprint of sorts to develop because what kind of superbeing is that cell otherwise?
How do you explain DNA?
I do not at all deny science and the empirical research, but it has never been conflicting with my faith except traditional primitive neanderthal "religious" arguments.
At the bottom it is simply a fight good vs. evil, ie a balance in the energy. Nothing primitive as innately the human seems to wish to do good but not always competent in how to do so. Not even many religious people have caught the attention to what their faith is really about, to establish a balance in symbiosis with their Creator and not some hocus pocus with a lot of mumbo jumbo. And that force in the galaxies have no need at all of you but it is only a show that you deserve a part of it through your personal character meaning you sort of merge with it, hence the constant repetition of salat and prayer in religious scriptures.
God bless you
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Peace,
And what kind of proof do you want? To be struck by lightning?
You cannot see The Master nor gauge but only the result action because The Master is not visible.
Had the Master been a human, The Sovereign would have laughed, but does not do so because it is not a human being we talk about.
God bless you
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Peace Blameless.
Thank you for bringing your balanced view.
Who has" conclusive" proof? Do you think GOD is not able to provide such proof?
Then why are we still divided , unsure and searching?Because if everyone was to see "proof" , they will believe and there will be no "choice". The matter will be settled.
SoA, the same as everyone else ,chooses to believe or disbelieve in whatever he wants.
Everyone is simply giving their view , as they are entitled to, for ,against or neutral.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Who has" conclusive" proof? Do you think GOD is not able to provide such proof?
Then why are we still divided , unsure and searching?Because if everyone was to see "proof" , they will believe and there will be no "choice". The matter will be settled.
SoA, the same as everyone else ,chooses to believe or disbelieve in whatever he wants.
Everyone is simply giving their view , as they are entitled to, for ,against or neutral.
Lovely post! http//3.bp.blogspot.com/--h4eLCX9klE/UZHjEBYfY2I/AAAAAAAADoo/W5bcUQjtXls/s1600/thumb-up-facebook-emoticon-like-symbol.png
Peace. http//4.bp.blogspot.com/-5BFO3PDratE/Tv9GFxyXbXI/AAAAAAAAAj8/xjYxSRsI3IU/s400/kiki%2Bemoticon.png
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Peace Blameless.
Thank you for bringing your balanced view.
Who has" conclusive" proof? Do you think GOD is not able to provide such proof?
Then why are we still divided , unsure and searching?Because if everyone was to see "proof" , they will believe and there will be no "choice". The matter will be settled.
SoA, the same as everyone else ,chooses to believe or disbelieve in whatever he wants.
Everyone is simply giving their view , as they are entitled to, for ,against or neutral.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Indeed.
And, people usually turn things up side down. People demand proof from a source other than them... that someone or something should bring proof to convince them. It would be much more fruitful to think of it in terms of BEING ABLE to SEE. Perhaps the problem is that we are unable to see the signs, proof, evidence that are all around. The problem is OUR blindness, not the lack of proof. The argument for lack of proof may very well just be an ignorant way to blame the other for our own blindness.
Peace
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Right, it is something like when in a previous post I asked whether one can prove love. Everybody takes for granted its existence, but finally it all revolves on what one intelectually understands as love. Nut love has more to it than intelect and nobody masters it. People experience it and there may be not two experiences that are the same, but nobody sets out to prove love. Love is not there for intellectual prowesses but to experience it or to fear to experience it. Who requires a proof of the existence of love? We may require from somebody a proov that he or she loves us, but we do not question that love exists. Same with God. Intellect is no proof of anything, intellect is a power but all power has its limits. ?How on earth can anybody proof something that is beyond his limits? Beyond our limits we cannot disprove or prove anything. But we can experience, and, as Zulf has said, we can see, we can make sense of many things, nothing extraordinary, but sense. And if that does not make sense to somebody else, that is that somebody else's problem not of the person who does see sense. I can remember long time ago people who claimed to be atheists used to look down on those who believed. Today I think atheists far more humble and they are not proud and assume that they are intellectually over you. At least those I talk with. Thank God.
And again, most of the time it all depends on what one puts within a word. For some love is this but not that or God is so and so, for others it is something else, so agreeing on something categoric when in each mind there is a different image is meaningless.
I rather look at people through the names of God, not through what they say. They may say this and then act as something else. They may say "I cannot believe" and then act out with utmost justice more than if they did 10 salaat a dar. What is that? That is remembering God by His al 3adl. They do totally believe in God through that name. In fact I think all of us have been given a name of God with which we remember Him.
Salaam
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Peace Family
@Blameless, do not be intimidated, have your say and enjoy the conversation! In regards to the topic, the Quran
is clear in it's description of God and the limitations of humans regarding God's existence. The words
"believe in the unseen" is one of the Key phrases that needs to be analyzed to bring the discussion into focus.
one cannot "prove" the unseen one can only believe in the unseen because regarding the unseen there is no
material to see, touch, measure, or observe under normal circumstances. In personal cases of supernatural
experiences, the event cannot usually be repeated as per the scientific method therefore the unseen is impossible
to prove using philosophy or science. If the atheist who takes the scientific or philosophical approach misses these
observations then I would say that the omission is born out of ignorance or emotion.Questions Why do atheists return to question the believers that possess proof?
Is it because they think that we are as close as they can get to God?
These types of discussions go round and round because the subject is the unseen!
Definition of supernatural (adj)
Bing Dictionary
su?per?nat?u?ral- not of natural world relating to or attributed to phenomena that cannot be explained by natural laws
2.relating to deity relating to or attributed to a deity
3.magical relating to or attributed to magic or the occult
Copied from How the Scientific Method Works
by William Harris
Limitations of the Scientific Method
Clearly, the scientific method is a powerful tool, but it does have its limitations. These limitations are based on
the fact that a hypothesis must be testable and falsifiable and that experiments and observations be repeatable.
This places certain topics beyond the reach of the scientific method. Science cannot prove or refute the existence
of God or any other supernatural entity.Conclusion
Could it be that religions and atheism are belief systems?
11/123 And Allah's is the unseen in the heavens and the earth, and to Him is returned the whole of
the affair; therefore serve Him and rely on Him, and your Lord is not heedless of what you do.God bless
peace
- not of natural world relating to or attributed to phenomena that cannot be explained by natural laws
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"believe in the unseen" is one of the Key phrases that needs to be analyzed to bring the discussion into focus.
Except that Allah said "That is the Book about which there is no doubt" (2.2).
That could not refer to the Quran since . . . Allah said "no doubt", whereas the Quran has the Mutasyaabihat elements . . ie. full of doubts. This could easily be proven . . . and not also to forget "the Book", what Book ? This is chapter al-Baqarah and there are 25 chapters which have not been revealed. . .and Allah should say "That is the Book Chapter/Verses about which there is no doubt", and not referring to the whole content of that Book. Therefore, it is the following book . . .
Indeed, it is a Noble Quran
In a protected Book
None can grasp it
except those purified (from shirk, self)
(5677-79)God did not make any man with two hearts in his body. (33.4)
Secondly . . Allah said "Those are upon guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful." (2.5) , meaning Allah is referring to those who have already succeeded in becoming a True Believer through complying all the conditions in 2.1-5, not like those Bedouins who are saying "We have believed.? Say, ?You have not believed" (49.14). The Bedouins are not "Those are upon guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful." (2.5). Similarly , we are not "those who are the successful" in 2.1-5.
The ayat is referring to . . .
The believers ARE ONLY the ones
who have believed in Allah and His Messenger
and then doubt not but strive with their properties and their lives in the cause of Allah
It is those who are the truthful.
(49.15)The believers ARE ONLY those who,
when Allah is mentioned, their hearts become fearful, and
when His verses are recited to them, it increases them in faith; and
upon their Lord they rely
(8.2)What have "those who are the successful" have accomplished ?
- They have attained the true understanding of Alif Lam Meem.
Alif
Lam
Meem- They have accomplished consciousness, and "Iqra". . .not the Book, but "in the name of your Lord", and "who has created".
And He taught Adam the names - all of them.
2.31-
They have seen the "unseen", not like those who are lying to themselves but have not known a single thing about the unseen. In fact, they can't even see jin and syaitan and yet claimed to believe the unseen, believe what ? funny, so blind. . . and what are these "unseen" things ? Whatever Muhammad has experienced, since he is our Messenger and he is a human being like us. . . we are his followers.
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They have acquire "wisdom" and successfully established the system of balance and justice in all aspect of their life.
He grants wisdom to whom He pleases
and whoever is granted wisdom
he indeed is given a great good
and none but men of understanding mind
(2269)- They have spend their property in the way of Allah, everything.
By no means shall you attain to righteousness
until you spend (benevolently)
out of what you love (ie. give all)
and whatever thing you spend
Allah surely knows it
(392)And they ask you as to what they should spend (sadaqah)
Say What you can spare
Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications
that you may ponder
(2219)- They have studied the Quran and previous revelations and have successfully practices the function of "Confirming Book" in every aspect of life. They have understand and live with the facts that "mankind is one single nation", ie. as Adam.
Only those who have successfully accomplished all the above "are the successful", only "Those are upon guidance from their Lord, " (Iyyaka naAAbudu wa-iyyaka nastaAAeen) and the subject matter of 2.1-5 . . . not the Bedoins like us who say "We have believed.? Say, ?You have not believed" (49.14).
Do the people think
that they will be left to say,
"We believe"
and they will not be tried?But We have certainly tried those before them
and Allah will surely make evident
those who are truthful
and He will surely make evident
the liarsOr do those who do evil deeds think they can outrun Us?
Evil is what they judge
(292-4) -
Peace,
Because it is a noble recitation of a protected decree. That is the decree in which there is no doubt.
God bless you
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Shalom Aleikhem JavaLatte,
Comfortable or uncomfortable?
Perhaps what you mean is uncomfortable?
However it is..., as long as you be honest, I think it's ok. D
Yeah, I meant to say uncomfortable there. Yes, I will try to be as honest as possible. That really helps me make my case.
Hmm... I suppose because you 'suddenly' change?
Although the change wasn't "sudden", I do understand what you are talking about. I will reason and provide evidence for the things I claim to be true. So, in essence, you just have to read and try to understand the points I am making. Unless of course in the past you were simply reading my posts and liking them simply because the posts were written by a Muslim. If the logic in my post never appealed to you and you only liked them because you thought it was written by a Muslim, then I guess I can't help you at all now that I am an atheist. Personally I find that strange as the truth of a claim shouldn't and doesn't depend on the spiritual convictions of a person. Every argument/claim rises or falls on their own merit. For example, if an atheist told you now that monkeys exist and a Muslim told you now that monkeys do not exist, who would you believe? You see, the truth is independent of where it is coming from and who is saying it. What matters is the evidence. In the example I provided, only the atheist can prove his case, therefore anyone will believe her.
I don't know the process, I mean how and when your turning point?
In the not so distant future, I will open a thread explaining my journey.
I can't find it from your posts, or perhaps it's because my lack understanding in English.
If you are talking about not finding that one thing that changed me into an atheist, you probably will never find that "one" thing. It was never "one" thing that changed my mind. Over a long period of time, the results of all my studies started pointing towards the lack of belief in a God being the position one should take. The more I critically assessed my every single religious beliefs, the weaker they became.
I don't understand why you suddenly change...
I will make a thread about that and you will get to read about it there. For now, just know that it wasn't just me waking up one day and being like "eh, I don't feel like believing in a God anymore, let's not believe anymore". It took time and boldness, it was a matter of a lot of intellectual honesty and rational thinking.
I knew you as someone who is very serious and enthusiastic sharing what you know of the Qur'an, and then one day I found that you suddenly turn become an atheist who is also enthusiastic, but now to oppose God.
Lol, yes that is correct. That happened because at the core of my being, I am still that same person. I still like the foods I liked, the music I liked, etc. It was always in my nature to try to reason, so it is no wonder that I will try to reason for my position no matter what it is at the moment.
Hey, I do see that rape is evil. I believe that my Lord forbids rape.
I am not convinced. I say that because of how you are unwilling to admit that your God giving me threats like a terrorist and burning me in a lake of fire is criminally insane!! Just because you think that it says in the Qur'an that God will do that, you are trying to defend such a monster. I am sure that if it said in the Qur'an that God will arrange a "rape session" for people who do not believe, you would have reacted just the same you reacted to your God's terrorist-like burn threats to people like me. I am sure in that case I would have given you an example from real world how its never nice to give someone rape threats. For example
Me Your God giving rape threats is evil and stupid by any standard. No one deserves rape threats simply for not being able to believe. What if someone was a doctor and I refused to believe she was a doctor? Is the doctor then justified in sending me to an eternal-rape camp for simply not being able to believe that the she was a doctor?
You
I suppose you give similar example like your previous post (about medical doctor...),
and my stance is the same, I think your example is not suitable.
That is how you will defend the indefensible. Just like you attempted at justifying the death/burn/torture threats by that terrorist desert god, you'd type the exact same things to defend his threats of eternal rape simply for not believing. The philosophy that probably damaged your sanity is the "might makes you right" philosophy. In it, one, for example your terrorist God, is justified in doing ANYTHING he wants to ANYONE simply because he is God. Simply because his MIGHT makes him RIGHT. What a disgusting philosophy!!
And about genocide... well if you also consider war as genocide, then I have to admit that as per my understanding there are times when war is ordered/allowed by God in the manner 'defensive war', that's how I understand how war is allowed.
I wasn't talking about genocides or wars in general. I wasn't talking about any defensive war either. Please go back and look at the context again. You asked me to explain my contempt for "beliefs in God". I just showed you how it acts like a gateway drug and causes many things among which is warfare.
Brother, please remember that here I am not trying to make you believe in what I said, I just telling you my opinions.
Personally I don't care what you believe. Where I feel all the agitations and get uncomfortable is when people try to come and rationalise and support horrendous evil in the name of some God!! As if that makes it less evil!! It never makes it less evil. As long as you will defend that terrorist that threatens to burn me, I will speak out against such absurdity and I am not sorry. At the very least, I stand on the moral high ground because I am only "typing" about how absurd it is to believe in such evil while you are actively promoting and supporting some infinitely insecure terrorist desert god.
I have been through many things in my live that make me realize that I will never be able to make people like you to believe in God.
I just asked for evidence. If your life testifies to the fact that "people like me" who seek evidence and reasoning for positing such beliefs will never believe in your claims, may be it is time to reconsider your faith. May be you should pause and wonder why people who ask for arguments and evidences for the existence of your God can not be converted. It tells you an awful lot about your beliefs. It tells you that they can only be accepted uncritically by non-rational thinkers based on appeals to emotion not truth/evidence/reality.
I go through a lot of sadness until I realize this, eventually I know that I am not able to change anyone to believe in God.
You should be happy, not sad. There is nothing "sad" about people not falling for your subjective feelings and believing in the same thing as you do. I am happy that the people you met were not so gullible and therefore upon you failing/refusing to provide evidence for your big claims, they rejected it!!
However, I am only human, and sometimes I have hopes for some people, including you, I hope you will one day return back to believe in God.
The only thing I hope for you is that everyday you will improve yourself and become a better person. I hope that for everyone including those I have at times considered to be my enemies. I hope everyone goes as far away from evil as possible. That is all I hope. Now whether they believe in the claims of some old Arabian book or not doesn't matter AT ALL to me. I like good people so I want there to be good people. I do not rest my judgments about people on which ancient fairy tale they subscribe to.
It's a hope, brother... my hope... and I suppose it is not a mistake to have hope.
No it is not. Like people from other cults/religions/groups, you can hope that I will one day be the member of your cult/religion/group. There is nothing innately right or wrong about hoping that.
I think what makes it either good or bad is how one acts upon what he believes.
I have gone to good lengths in explaining to you why I believe such "beliefs in God" are detrimental to our progress as a civilization. Just like you are so quick to defending the terrorist Arab desert God that threatens to throw me in a lake of fire for simply not having evidence to believe in him, other people are quick to believe in similar evils in the name of God. This results in them carrying out a host of evil activities, like I have mentioned in my last post, without any shame or remorse!! Just like you say your terrorist God is right in throwing me in a lake of fire for merely not believing. It is possible that you are mistaken about the God and God probably will not do this to anyone. However, your behavior testifies to what I was saying about the evil "beliefs in God" can result in. There will always be people like you who will try to defend PURE and ABSOLUTE EVIL just because they think its from God!!
I don't believe in Gods/Goddesses too, because what make sense to me is only One God.
Many unicorns
http//www.blogcdn.com/blog.games.com/media/2012/08/farmville-on-facebook-2.jpgOne unicorn
http//darthmojo.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/unicorn_pink.jpgIt is irrelevant if you believe there exists a team of unicorns or a single unicorn. You may believe that there is one bigfoot as opposed to many bigfoots. That still doesn't help you. You still have to demonstrate the truth and show that unicorn/bigfoot or your desert God for that matter actually exists. There is no reason as to why there can not be multiple Bigfoots/Unicorns/Gods if they exist at all. Believing in less volume of irrational things still makes your belief irrational.
No.
If you told me something like that, then I would not wonder how you know that.
But, perhaps I'll wonder why you speak such a thing to me.
May be that is where lies the difference. When the Qur'an makes big as* claims, you never wonder how it knows all these things and if its true. If that is your methodology of seeking the truth, best of luck with your arab god beliefs. When you change and become a person who actually cares about what is ACTUALLY and therefore FACTUALLY TRUE, then may be you will see my view. If you don't care about the truth of claims to begin with, then its no wonder that you accepted a baseless Arabic book as something "inspired by The God"!!
Well, to be sure about the existence of God is personal, and for me it's not instant.
Whether a God exists or not is not a matter of personal opinion. It either does exist or not irrespective what you can believe. If it is personal, may be you shouldn't discuss it on public forums. In a public forum you can not threaten people of hell fire based on your "personal belief" and simultaneously seek immunity from criticism saying "its personal". If its that personal and private, please stop any attempt at promoting/spreading/supporting it in public too. Unless of course you want to be hypocritical about the matter and are only saying its private so that you are not grilled for evidence to back your assertions.
I've through continuous process. It's between God and me. I have reasons for myself, but my reasons may not work on you.
You are correct about that. The problem is as follows
Person A (Truthful person) I have seen God.
Person B (Liar) I have seen God.
Person C (A person who is mistaken) I have seen God
Person D (Crazy) I have seen GodHow do I tell the difference between them without testing? Without them backing up their claim with reason and evidence, I can not tell the difference between someone who is actually saying the truth and someone who is lying/mistaken/crazy. All of them can say that they have their "reasons" for believing. However, when it comes to me accepting their claims, I can not tell the difference between them without testing their claims and that test cannot be done on faith/feelings. Anybody can have faith or feelings for any of the options above.
If you claim something like that to me, perhaps I just smile...
I have no reason to accept or reject such claims. You can insist for 9876 alien if you like. )
AHA!! There you go!! You figured it out. In the same way, you and that old book can keep on saying for eternity that the contents of the books are "correct/accurate", I have no reason to accept them. You can go believe that an ancient book written by ignorant desert people from the past is actually from the creator of the universe. )
I suppose you give similar example like your previous post (about medical doctor...),
and my stance is the same, I think your example is not suitable.
Please explain why my example isn't suitable. While you do that, avoid the logical fallacy of "Special Pleading". That is similar to saying rape is wrong but when God says to rape, it becomes a DIVINELY MANDATED RIGHTEOUS RAPE FESTIVAL!! Please feel free to explain how your criminal-like despotic irrational hateful bigot of a God, who threatens to put me in a lake of fire, is right in being that way. While you do that, please make sure you are not committing logical fallacies.
To believe in God is not based on the fuzzy feeling...
Well, people here are talking about so many different kinds of things. I have yet to see someone who has come up with EVIDENCE. Everyone beating around the bush and changing the meanings of words, making everything vaguer and diluting every conversation in the name of "personal/private" convictions and all that. YET, I haven't seen anyone bring up Evidence. You guys go back to talking about your feelings. That is why I said "fuzzy feelings". All I have heard so far
You feel a certain way Therefore the Arabian God mentioned in the Qur'an exists. (Logical fallacy Appeal to Emotion)
You don't know how something happens Therefore the Arabian God mentioned in the Qur'an must exist and he must have done it. ( Logical fallacy Argument from Ignorance)I cannot talk about other things when you guys are avoiding facing reality and giving me a reason to see why your beliefs are anymore credible than believing in Santa Clause.
When you feel close to God, your tears may coming out of the eyelids, the feeling is special. It is quite difficult to described.
Mass suicide by cult in Bali
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Self immolation by a Buddhist monk
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Suicide cult People?s Temple Jonestown Massacre, Guyan
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Heavens Gate cult suicide
http//www.findadeath.com/Deceased/h/Heavens_gate/heavens_gate_dead.jpg
So all these cult members connected so much to the truth they were being told by their insane leaders that they didn't mind killing themselves. People sometimes decide to kill themselves without any leader asking them to do it and they do it because of how emotionally invested they are into the cultish ideas. What now, because of that all of their beliefs MUST BE TRUE? Not to mention that I have seen people idolizing and crying for the freakin AMERICAN IDOL!!! Members of cults get emotional and are moved by whatever their leaders or scriptures say. It is the same for every cult/religion. The members of cults throughout the globe don't walk around saying "Our feelings are not special, its only JavaLatte's feelings that are actually legit!". Every such believer, including you, believes that their feeling are legit. Every god damn person who claimed to be second coming of Christ managed to get a few people who followed them and felt like their life has been changed and they were moved. Just go to youtube and watch documentaries on cults and see how people are emotionally attached and devoted to the cult and the leader/s.
I suppose you don't know for sure as to what my reaction.
I wasn't sure that you will just condemn traditional Muslims for following hadith without ANY REASON. Its not a nice thing to admit about yourself. It is prejudice and hatred. Please try to flush that out of your system if you want peace in life.
No, I won't. I have no reason to ask you for actual evidence to believe in 9876 alien life forms.
I figured as much. I understand now that you have no rational ground for holding your beliefs. Your "god beliefs" are totally baseless and isn't founded on evidence. I understand that you just go around believing things based on what you get emotional about and by that methodology, there is no reason why me making absurd claims will make you wonder at all. You aren't a seeker of "truth". At best you are a fan. You do not care about what is true. You care about what you can get emotional about while simultaneously ignoring the feelings of other people from other cults who used the same justification for their cultish beliefs. Even the religious zealots who go around killing people have the same justification for their belief like you do. Its all about feeling. They were moved by what they thought was from God, therefore they didn't mind doing this
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It is also because of your method of "going by what you emotionally feel is from God" that these people do things like
Subjugate half of the human race
http//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Taliban_beating_woman_in_public_RAWA.jpg
Mutilate the genitalia ( foreskin and clitoris ) of billions of males and females
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http//i.ytimg.com/vi/g2povJnbcro/0.jpg
Such kind of disgusting and horrendous evil can not originate out of one who follows reason and evidence. These people are doing what they believe are RIGHT things and they believe their beliefs are TRUE and their thinking methodology is identical to yours. They don't go by evidence and prove something before committing to it. They go by what they feel is okay or what they get emotional about. It takes religion to turn ordinary loving and caring people into embodiment of absolute evil.
Hmmm... I suppose I just don't want to be like them (following man-made hadith).
I don't know what you mean about 'accept their position to be true' if they tell me such things.
I suppose I'm not even bother to think about accepting their position.
I hope they're willing to search for the truth sincerely, and if they keep insist to believe in man-made hadith, well then I suppose I better stop telling them, especially if they get angry.
-
Without providing evidence that your Qur'an was not man made, you can't begin to write something like you have written above. The Qur'an was written by man/men like every god damn book in the face of this planet.
-
Both you and the traditional hadith following muslims follow the same methodology. Both of you are blind believers. Both of you are following something based on subjective feelings and emotions. It is because of that I find it hilarious how you can even talk about search of truth!! When you yourself aren't searching for truth sincerely, how dare you hope others are doing it! No sincere follower of truth in their quest will ever use reasoning like "I feel like it because it makes me emotional". That is not a pathway to truth. Every god damn cult member /member of religion "feels" like they are right and their gods/goddesses are true!!
Did I demand evidence from hadith followers? No, I think I never demand such things, as long as I can remember.
Well then don't say crap like
It could be, but perhaps deep down inside they know that man-made hadith is wrong.
If you don't even care about the evidence they have, then please, for the love of your desert god, stop accusing them of being liars. When you don't have what it takes to ask someone why they believe what they believe, don't go around posting bulls*it hypothesis about them. If you haven't had a dialogue with them where you guys dealt with reasoning and evidence for your individual claims, then you don't even know why they believe what they believe. Be a good person and stop right there. Don't just go on and start accusing them of lying about what they actually believe.
Why should I demand evidence to follow something which already clear for me that it is wrong.
You have to demonstrate that something is "WRONG". You can't say that "I like the Bible, it brings tears to my eyes, therefore Christianity is right and other religions are wrong". You admitedly go by "feelings" instead of evidence. So you shouldn't be so quick to judge others who are essentially following the same faulty method.
When I realize that all of man-made hadith is wrong, then I leave it all.
That's what I do. I don't demand evidence in order to follow hadith again.As I have said before, you haven't demonstrated that Qur'an isn't man made. Every book ever written was man made. Not to mention that the ignorance found underlying in the Qur'anic presuppositions testify to the truth of the fact that it was probably not only man made, it wasn't made by someone intelligent. After you demonstrate why Qur'an isn't man made, then you get to claim that you have stopped following ALL man made narratives.
I think the reasons for my belief is not bad, but I don't know about your own personal reasons.
Its actually worse than just bad. You don't actually have any "reasoning" behind your beliefs. They are based on mere feelings.
Brother, to be honest, I'm not someone who eager to do something like that.
If you are not willing to defend Qur'an then you should stop talking about it in public situations. You can come here and try to support an insecure bigoted Arab god but you aren't willing to show us how you even verified that the book that told you all these fairy tales is authentic? I didn't even ask for proofs of the claims in the book. I only wanted to see you historically verify that your Qur'an is the original one. See?? Blind belief. You should stop at this point and think about how far you have come without doing the most basic and obvious of all researches. For the love of GOD!! You don't even know if you are following some anonymous documents now!!
- I don't know how to verify that the Qur'an I have is original. I admit that I don't have enough knowledge to verify such thing.
Not only you. The entire Islamic world can't possibly do that today. If you go to this thread (click me) and follow my dialogue with the people there, you will quickly realize that you are essentially basing everything on a book you can't even historically verify!!
- My belief in Qur'an is personal, and I'm quite slow in learning it, but I have faith in God, so the Qur'an is very interesting to me, and I like it a lot.
Well good, study it then. However, when you claim it personal, please keep it private. This is a discussion forum and everything and anything you say may be critiqued by other members on here. Especially when you are supporting a terrorist ideology and a terrorist God who threatens to throw me in hell should I not believe in it's existence!! That is a personal attack on me and as such I feel obliged to speak out against such horrendous philosophy.
- I don't feel moved to convince the whole world that the Qur'an is true and original. Because I know that I'm not able to make others to believe in the Qur'an. I will not be able to guide anyone even one single person.
Well then please don't feel "moved" to come to the support of the abhorrent terrorist-like God in front of the whole world either. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Your private beliefs are your private stuff. However, your actions based on those beliefs, such as spreading/supporting hate-philosophy, are not necessarily private. I will let your private beliefs stay that way as long as you keep them private.
- God does not order me to do that. I'm not a messenger.
That is stupid reasoning. Outright stupid. You were supporting a terrorist god so I wanted you to at least show me how you know that the book of fables that you have is the original one. One has to do it to begin to know what they are talking about. It seems like you have no interest in verifying anything. It seems like you just need "something". As long as someone has given you an old book, YOU DON'T EVEN CARE if its true and intact. That is not a pathway to truth. That is a surefire way of falling for bullsh*t!!
Similar to what I said before, I do not ask from hadith followers demonstrate to me how those hadiths were actual saying. I don't ask them to do such things.
Trust me, at this point I don't think you need demonstrations of anything. Heck!! I think an Arabic leaflet will do for you, you don't even need a proper book. I am only saying that due to what you have suggested about your method of finding the truth. If that isn't true, then may be I am wrong.
Hmmm... -\ What do you mean by 'they'? Who are 'they'?
by THEY, I was talking about "God beliefs". So the sentence you quoted now reads
"In short I guess, such beliefs in God needs you to be totally uncritical about the biggest questions humanity has asked and THEY (These God beliefs) teach you to be satisfied with BASELESS assertions instead of seeking the actual answers with full honesty and unrestrained devotion to the journey towards the truth."
What I know I just telling you my personal stance. Don't exaggerate my personal statement.
I didn't exaggerate anything. You stated that the reason you believe in a God is because of you seeing and feelings some "signs". First of all, you didn't even care to show me the "signs" and prove your case. Don't get me wrong, I know why that is the case. Even you know that someone will not have their standard of evidence low enough to count them as evidence. You might have told me about your personal stance, but you can't escape the shackles of reason just because they are your personal stance. You are still guilty of basing your personal stance on all kinds of logical fallacies.
Gigantic claim? Factual? ???
Yes. God isn't just some random pizza delivery guy. You claiming that you know that a god exists, an evil one at that, is not a small matter. Thus the use of the word gigantic. I used the word factual because whether a God exists or not is not a matter of belief. Are you trolling me? If god exists or not is not a matter of opinion or belief. Either it does or it doesn't. You can believe that yes it does or no it doesn't. That doesn't change the underlying FACT of the existence or non-existence of the subject.
I just tell you the reason why I believe in God, and you accuse me making gigantic claim. (
I won't accuse you of anything the moment you agree/confess/admit that you don't KNOW if a god exists. If you say you know, you are claiming knowledge. For that, you have to provide evidence. You can then go ahead and believe in whatever you like.
Do I have to fulfill standard of evidence for telling you about my belief?
In general NO. If I asked you about your belief, I don't think you should feel obliged to provide evidence. However, when you are working for an invisible mafia boss who will break my leg if I don't kiss his as*, you have to provide evidence of your boss's existence. When you are supporting a terrorist of a God like that, you have to provide evidence. You are the one who is siding with the hideous monster of a God that will send people to camp. So yes, when you are advocating for sending people to camps, any decent human being will ask you for some rational justification outside of your subjective beliefs.
For you? No... Why should I?
http//cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/50215773.jpg
Not for me. You couldn't even test out those big claims for their truth even if your life depended on them. For thousands of years theists had the time to provide evidence. At the end of the day everyone had to confess that it is a matter of "faith". You couldn't prove anything even if your life depended on it!!
Why don't you stop being so arrogant and harsh?
I asked you to provide evidence for your God and this is your response? It actually testifies to the FALSEHOOD of your claims and beliefs. If you had evidence that demonstrates the truth of your claims and beliefs, by now, we would have seen them.
How about you being more humble before God?
So this is your response to me asking for evidence? Would you be humble before Humpty Dumpty to find his truth? Does that make sense to you? If not, why then are you asking someone who clearly doesn't believe in a God, let alone your terrorist of a god, to humble before your God? May be you can spew such garbage at average atheists you meet. You can't do that to me. I didn't create my account here after becoming an atheist. Anyone can go through my old posts and blogs to see how sincere I was in search of the truth. I really tried. As I learnt more, the bubble bursting occurred and the entire worldview shattered. That is not my fault. Religious people like you have redefined humble. Now humble and gullible means the same thing. There simply is no humble way of talking about horse sh*t!! I will not pretend for a second like there is anything good about being gullible or believing in a terrorist God like the one you support.
You are losing your humbleness before God.
And you are losing your humbleness before Humpty Dumpty!! I don't know why some religious people don't get it!! You can't be humble or arrogant before something you don't even think exists!!
My belief is not based on fuzzy feelings, perhaps that's what you feel, so no wonder you prefer to be atheist.
In your responses you have had ample opportunity to show at least ONE objective piece of evidence. You didn't. You only talked about vague feelings for "signs" and tears in your eyes. I am glad that this isn't a one on one discussion and any reader will be able to verify the truth of what I am saying. To be an atheist it didn't require proof of something. The lack of evidence for the beliefs I held at the time rendered them unjustified. Without those beliefs I am automatically an atheist.
I don't feel the need to bring my statement into existence.
So your God doesn't exist in reality? It is just a statement for you? In that case, congrats. You just proved that your god exists only as words.
Why?
You can't command me to do that, you are not my Lord, I am not your servant.
So asking for evidence can only be done by a God? You claimed the existence of some supernatural deity and also supported the horrifyingly evil view that that monster throws people like me into fire merely for not believing in his existence. You have done all that in a public forum. Now you think nobody except God can ask you to back your claims up?
I didn't command you to provide evidence. I just thought I can ask for you to provide evidence but I was wrong. Where in the world will you get your evidence from when you can't even validate if you have the original Qur'an.
I said I hope someday you'll back to believe in Allah.
My hope is not layed upon you. You cannot grant my hope.
My hope is upon God, I hope God will guide you.
If you don't want to take me seriously, then I don't mind with that. )
I actually want to take everyone seriously. I just don't have any choice in the matter when they base everything on faulty and fallacious reasoning.
I'm a person who has been accustomed being insulted and deemed as a fool. Thus is how the Lord taught me to be patient.
I can see why. Verily I say unto you. You can not begin to earn the respect of the masses, let alone that of the critical thinkers, if you give into the temptations of logical fallacies. For thinking minds see no wonder in the laziness of the fallacious non-thinkers and this is why you can not hope to win them over until you leave the path of cognitive dissonance and turn to logic. Logic Reason and Evidence shall teach you what no Arab God has ever taught you. They shall make you more bold yet honest. All this comes to you as a suggestion from the mind of Student of Allah, the rational, the thinking one.
And you don't find yourself arrogant?
You assumed that the followers of hadith are liars who know in their heart that hadiths should not be followed but say otherwise with their mouth. How does that make me arrogant?
But, you do look upset...
and fiery too...
Of course!! I spoke out against the absurdity and evil these "God beliefs" caused throughout human history. May be you don't take that seriously but I do. I wrote them for every subjugated sister, mutilated brothers and sister, oppressed intellectual, etc who suffered in the past, now and will suffer tomorrow because of these "God beliefs" that are not founded on any reason at all. Of course I will get passionate about the suffering of others. Unlike you, I do not support terrorist evil Gods who takes pride in throwing mere non-believers in a lake of fire. So of course it is a touchy subject for me who still has their moral compass not raped and in utter ruins because of religious dogma!!
After scolding God and me in such manner, do you feel better now?
I don't believe in the existence of your Arab God. Things I wrote there were for you and general readers. Having said that, its fun to see how religion affected your brain. You asked me to tell you about what about "God beliefs" can be bad. I told you as much as I could. And you respond by asking me if I am feeling better after scolding you? You don't have any genuine interest to know about the what/why/how's of things, do you? You just came in and tried to advocate for a terrorist God and now I feel like I am being trolled!!
You're like a volcano which was erupting and spewing hot lava. )
If its possible, I will become that volcano that wipes religion off the face of this planet. Mind you, I am not talking about people here, I am talking about RELIGION. I will happily do that because enough is enough and religion needs to pay for all of my sisters and brothers it so mercilessly made to suffer throughout the ages and still does.
http//www.pi-news.org/wp/uploads/2010/02/Somalia2.jpg
You may feel nothing in your core for the sister or brother that lies beneath those rocks in that photo. You don't have to. Even this one single case of a single sister or brother is reason enough for me to strike back. But don't worry, unlike cowards who fly airplanes into buildings, we won't strike that way. Our sheer intellect will bring religion down!!
Peace
--------------- Student of Allah -
-
Peace,
Jose Mujica is Uruguayan president known to be the poorest president (wealth) in the world today. He rejected to stay in presidential palace and stays in his simple farm house with his wife and 3 legged dog. Donates 90% of his salary to charity (mostly for public housing), flies in economy class and drives a wolskwagan beetle from 1987. He wears lived-in clothes and well used footwear. Water in his house comes from a well. He is known to be a down to earth person who lives a very modest lifestyle.
Above all, he is known to be an atheist. Now, my question is, how does he fit into God's world or commandment? As we all (if not most of us) believe, Believing in God is the most important thing, will it be fair to say that he may not achieve salvation just because he is an atheist? To me, He seems to be an perfect example of humanity in current world and knowingly or unknowingly following God's path.
I would like to request you to kindly put your opinions in most humble manners please. I am very sensible person and does not like to be attacked even by words. This is only my curiosity and I am trying to learn from the best ones with knowledge.
did he say he was an atheist? he sounds like a believer in the sense that he understands he will not be on this earth forever and he may be too intelligent to say his work and experience in this life will simply disappear and go unaccounted for. but that's my guess for anyone with common sense. say not of anyone they are none a believer when you travel through the land, so just say your a good man and give him your vote.