95 Theses: 9.5 Theses to Follow the Quran Alone!

The_Chimp

I unable to find this statement as "reasoning" . . it is simply a "statement without reason" (opinion).

Statement with reasoning = argument and is still opinion. However the above is factual - based on dictionary.

Religion

"1. the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods."

"2. a particular system of faith and worship."

Also

"Religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence."

Deen - look up dictionary - Lane's Lexicon

Having said the above . . . it is YOUR views that are being challenged - so where is your er . . . "reasoning"?

It is the job of the claimant to provide the evidence for his claims

Burden of Proof - regarding your claim is upon you

http//rationalwiki.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof

muslims

However the above is factual - based on dictionary.

That's what I said . . it is not reason . . and it is factual for religion (madhab), not for way of life (deen).

Religion

"1. the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods."

"2. a particular system of faith and worship."

In Islam . . we don't worship Allah . .

but we serve our whole life for Allah because we are servants.

Say, "Indeed, my prayer, my rites of sacrifice, my living and my dying are for Allah , Lord of the worlds. (6.162)

There is no worshipping in Islam.

Further . . one can be a Muslim even with "0" faith in Allah (4914-17) . . it is so since "submission" is about obedience, not about belief.

and . . Muhammad can be a non Muslim, despite he is a True Believer (6121)

This is reasoning . .

and where is your reason and proof to counter the above verses ?

ie. (4914-17) and (6121)

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606111.msg344772#msg344772

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606111.msg344801#msg344801

quote . . .

back your thinking up - from the Quran by using language and logic.

muslims

Some comparison between religion and deen . . .

| | | | |

| 1 | | Religion is merely some sort of subjective experience and is concerned only with the so-called private relationship between God and man. | 1 | Deen is an objective reality and a system of collective life.

| | | | |

| 2 | | Every follower of a Religion is satisfied that he has established a communion with the Almighty, and the objective of each individual is his own salvation. | 2 | The aim of deen on the other hand is the welfare and progress of all mankind, and the character and constitution of a society indicates whether or not it is founded upon the Divine Law.

| | | | |

| 3 | | Religion does not afford us any objective. criterion by which we could determine whether or not our actions are producing the desired results. | 3 | In a social order governed by Deen, the development of a collective and harmonious life correctly indicates whether or not the people are pursuing the right course.

| | | | |

| 4 | | Religion is hostile to scientific investigation and is an adversary of reason, so that it could flourish unhampered with the aid of a blind faith. | 4 | Deen helps in the development of human reason and knowledge, allows full freedom to accept or reject on the basis of reason and arguments, and encourages investigation and discovery of all the natural phenomena to illumine the path of human life and its advancement in the light of the Permanent Values.

| | | | |

| 5 | | Religion follows the susceptibilities and prejudices of men and pampers them. | 5 | Deen seeks to lead men to a path of life that is in harmony with the realities of life.

| | | | |

| 6 | | In every age, therefore, Religion sets up new idols and mumbo-jumbos in order to keep the people's attention away from the real problems of life. | 6 | But deen is rational and radical it breaks all idols, old and new, and is never variable in its principles.

| | | | |

| 7 | | Religion induces a perpetual sense of fear in the minds of men and seeks to frighten them into conformity; | 7 | While deen treats fear as a form of polytheism and seeks to make men courageous, daring and self-reliant.

| | | | |

| 8 | | Religion prompts men to bow before every seat of authority and prestige, religious as well as temporal. | 8 | Deen encourages man to walk about with his head erect, and attain self-confidence.

| | | | |

| 9 | | Religion induces man to flee from struggle of life. | 9 | But deen calls upon him to face the realities of life squarely, whatever the hazards.

| | | | |

| 10 | | Religion treats the world of matter with contempt and calls upon man to renounce it. It promises paradise only in the Hereafter as a reward for the renunciation of the material world. | 10 | Deen, on the other hand, enjoins the conquest of matter and leads man to immeasurable heights of attainment. It exhorts him to seek well-being and happiness in this world as well as felicity in the life Hereafter.

| | | | |

| 11 | | Religion encourages belief in fatalism, and this tends to dissuade man from active life and self-development. | 11 | Deen gives man power to challenge fate, and provides energy for a life of activity and self-development.

| | | | |

| 12 | | Religion seeks to comfort the weak, the helpless and the oppressed with the belief that the affairs of this world are governed by the Will of God and that its acceptance and resignation helps to endear them to God. This sort of teaching naturally tends to morbidity, and emboldens their religious leaders who profess to interpret the Will of God, so that they indulge in their misdeeds with perfect impunity and persuade the adherents to a complete and quiet submission. | 12 | Deen, on the other hand, raises the banner of revolt against all forms of tyranny and exploitation. It calls upon the weak and the oppressed to follow the Divine Laws and thereby seek to establish a social order in which all tyrants and oppressors will be forced to accept the dictates of right and justice. In this social order, there is no place for dictators, capitalists or priests. They are all enemies of Deen.

| | | | |

| 13 | | Religion enjoins religious meditation in the name of worship and thus induces self-deception. | 13 | Deen exhorts men to assert themselves and struggle perpetually for the establishment of the Divine Social Order, and its betterment when attained. Worship in deen really means obedience to the Laws of God.

| | | | |

| 14 | | Religion frowns and sneers at all things of art and beauty. | 14 | Deen defies those who forbid the enjoyment of the good and beautiful things of life which God has created for the enjoyment of man.

| | | | |

| 15 | | Religion denounces everything new and declares all innovation as sin. | 15 | Deen holds that the needs and demands of human life keep changing with the change in the conditions of life; change and innovation are, therefore, demanded by life itself. Only the Divine Laws are immutable.

Islam means saying "Yes" to life; while the response of religion is "No"!

http//www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/ICR/ICR_20.htm

The_Chimp

That's what I said . . it is not reason . . and it is factual for religion (madhab), not for way of life (deen).

So why bother pointing it out? It doesn't have to be "reason" every time. It is there simply challenging you. And as I pointed out - it is you who need to provide reason/evidence for your claims.

In Islam . . we don't worship Allah . .

Yes we do. This is the "basics". Of course we worship Allah.

ut we serve our whole life for Allah because we are servants.

Say, "Indeed, my prayer, my rites of sacrifice, my living and my dying are for Allah , Lord of the worlds. (6.162)

There is no worshipping in Islam.

Worship

the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.
religious rites or ceremonies, constituting a formal expression of reverence for a deity.

Of course there is "worship" in Islam. Looking you even quoted the perfect verse - which proves there is worship in Islam.

What else do you think worship means?

Further . . one can be a Muslim even with "0" faith in Allah

it is so since "submission" is about obedience, not about belief.

You only "submit" if you have belief. Your proposition is simply ridiculous.

Faith "strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof."

or "complete trust or confidence in someone or something."

Look at what the verse 4915 says

"The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not believed; but say , 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts."

And then

4915

"The believers are only the ones who have believed in Allah and His Messenger and then doubt not but strive with their properties and their lives in the cause of Allah . It is those who are the truthful."

Here the verse is telling you WHO the believers are! And look what you are saying.

Verse 17

"...He has guided you to the faith..."

This is reasoning . .

and where is your reason and proof to counter the above verses ?

As shown - it is wrong reasoning. Also - you decided to ignore the above and moved on . . . to something else. That is called "avoidance".

I do not mean to offend you - but you do come out with some really silly things. Generally the exact opposite of what the Quran actually says.

hicham9

Deen is just an Arabic word for religion. This 'muslims' guy is playing dumb.
But the religion mentioned in the Qur'an is not an organized religion with clerical body etc.

Ay indeed )

muslims

So why bother pointing it out? It doesn't have to be "reason" every time. (not a reason - repetition)It is there simply challenging you. And as I pointed out - it is you who need to provide reason/evidence for your claims.

Yes we do. This is the "basics". Of course we worship Allah. (not a reason - repetition and insist you are right)

Worship (not a reason - repetition)

the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity. (not a reason - repetition)
religious rites or ceremonies, constituting a formal expression of reverence for a deity. (not a reason - repetition)

Of course there is "worship" in Islam. Looking you even quoted the perfect verse - which proves there is worship in Islam. (not a reason - repetition)

What else do you think worship means? (refer here - not a reason - repetition)

As shown - it is wrong reasoning. Also - you decided to ignore the above and moved on . . . to something else. That is called "avoidance". (deceiving - refer to my reply)

I do not mean to offend you - but you do come out with some really silly things (ad hominem - attack on the messenger instead of the message). Generally the exact opposite of what the Quran actually says. (misrepresentation or deceive)

See ? This what I called an argument by repetition - argumentum ad nauseam . .

I am right. I am right. I am right. I am right. I am right. I am right. I am right.
I am right. I am right. I am right. I am right. I am right. I am right. I am right.
I am right. I am right. I am right. I am right. I am right. I am right. I am right.

Therefore , I am right.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606172.msg346215#msg346215

You do not give reasons, but you merely insist that you are right until people become sick of it . . boringggg.

and worst . . you don't even know how to make an argument (refer here and here) . .

and when people point out that the flaw . . . you start being arrogant and attack people, ignoring all answers with blank denial, while insisting that you are right . . repeat it over and over and over again . . as much you can, and until people become sick of it.

Reason ! I pray for reason . . .

You only "submit" if you have belief. Your proposition is simply ridiculous.

Faith "strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof."

or "complete trust or confidence in someone or something."

Look at what the verse 4915 says

"The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not believed; but say , 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts."

Facts

The bedouins say they have believed

Allah says they have not believed

Therefore the bedouins were right, and Allah was wrong ?

Allah did not know what the bedouins really meant to say ?

You are not smart, right ?

And then

4915

"The believers are only the ones who have believed in Allah and His Messenger and then doubt not but strive with their properties and their lives in the cause of Allah . It is those who are the truthful."

Here the verse is telling you WHO the believers are! And look what you are saying.

Verse 17

"...He has guided you to the faith..."

That's what I said . .

They are not believers and in fact, and they know nothing about Allah. (refer here)

Therefore . . .

and where is your reason and proof to counter the above verses ?

ie. (4914-17) and (6121)

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606111.msg344772#msg344772

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606111.msg344801#msg344801

quote . . .

back your thinking up - from the Quran by using language and logic.

muslims

Deen - D y n - debt - duty . . . our debt to Allah since everything in this world is lent to us.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606172.msg346146#msg346146

Therefore, we need to be grateful . .

DIN?this word has been used in various contexts, among them being ascendancy, sovereignty, management, conduct of affairs, ruling power, mastership, ownership, exercise of power, code of law, constitution, law of requital, an order. The Quran has described Islam as Ad-Din, which is generally translated as religion. However, in the light of the above meanings, it should be clear that this is not only incorrect, but distorts and negates the very meaning of din. Islam is not a religion (madhab), and it has never been described as one in the Quran. Islam is a way of life, a system, a code of law. In the external universe Islam signifies the Divine Order that governs life and the movement of the entire universe. The whole purpose of the Quran is to establish a universal order based on the Divinely ordained values of life. This is ad-din; <a href="http//www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/ICR/ICR.htm">Islam A Challenge to Religion</a>

The_Chimp

Muslims - you were seriously abusive against me. You shamelessly swore and attempted to bully. Might I remind you of your previous conduct?

So be warned.

Yes we do. This is the "basics". Of course we worship Allah. (not a reason - repetition and insist you are right)

No I do not. You deviously ignored all the "reasoning" - took it out and falsely alleged this.

You have done this kind o thing before.

Look at what I wrote

Worship

the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.
religious rites or ceremonies, constituting a formal expression of reverence for a deity.

Of course there is "worship" in Islam. Looking you even quoted the perfect verse - which proves there is worship in Islam.

What else do you think worship means?

Now - this one issue is enough to highlight what type of person you are. brickwall

Worship (not a reason - repetition)

the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity. (not a reason - repetition)
religious rites or ceremonies, constituting a formal expression of reverence for a deity. (not a reason - repetition)

Of course there is "worship" in Islam. Looking you even quoted the perfect verse - which proves there is worship in Islam. (not a reason - repetition)

What else do you think worship means? (refer here - not a reason - repetition)

Of course it is reason - your silly denials are not going to work.

I have clearly shown what worship means and how we do worship the almighty.

I do not mean to offend you - but you do come out with some really silly things (ad hominem - attack on the messenger instead of the message).

Are you for real? Should I quote you your abuse back? And ad hminem is if CALLED YOU silly.

I didn't. I called what you come out with SILLY.

Now learn the difference - rather than pretending to know logic and making more accusations.

You do not give reasons, but you merely insist that you are right until people become sick of it . . boringggg.

It is clear from the above I did give reason.

I showed you meaning of the word Worship.
I highlighted your mistakes.
I quoted verse to back up what I counter-claim

Now if that isn't "reason" - then what is?

You've got one track abusive mind - when you are challenged you revert to type. And you are doing it again.

What you are also doing is . . . not answering questions raised against you.

The_Chimp

and when people point out that the flaw . . . you start being arrogant and attack people, ignoring all answers with blank denial, while insisting that you are right . . repeat it over and over and over again . . as much you can, and until people become sick of it.

So what happened to you ad hominem?

Oh yeah . . .that is only for making baseless accusations against others.

You are doing it again

Example of a blank denial?
Example of an ignored question?

The_Chimp

Deen - D y n - debt - duty . . . our debt to Allah since everything in this world is lent to us.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606172.msg346146#msg346146

Therefore, we need to be grateful . .

Deen and Dayn are 2 separate words. Look it up - dictionary!

muslims

This is the question . . .

and where is your reason and proof to counter the above verses ?

ie. (4914-17) and (6121)

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606111.msg344772#msg344772

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606111.msg344801#msg344801

Facts

The bedouins say they have believed

Allah says they have not believed

Therefore the bedouins were right, and Allah was wrong ?

Allah did not know what the bedouins really meant to say ?

and let we see if you answer the above questions . . . or if there is any counter argument . .

Muslims - you were seriously abusive against me. You shamelessly swore and attempted to bully. Might I remind you of your previous conduct? (as usual . . not a counter argument - made up stories)

So be warned.

No I do not. You deviously ignored all the "reasoning" - took it out and falsely alleged this. (as usual . . not a counter argument - merely insisting he is right, for no reason)

You have done this kind o thing before.

Look at what I wrote (as usual . . insisting he is right, for no reason . . refer here)

Now - this one issue is enough to highlight what type of person you are. brickwall (as usual . . blaming . for no reason)

Of course it is reason - your silly denials are not going to work. (as usual . . not a counter argument, merely insisting that he is right, for no reason)

I have clearly shown what worship means and how we do worship the almighty. (as usual . . not a counter argument, merely insisting that he is right, for no reason)

Are you for real? Should I quote you your abuse back? And ad hminem is if CALLED YOU silly. (as usual . . not a counter argument and blank denial)

I didn't. I called what you come out with SILLY.

Now learn the difference - rather than pretending to know logic and making more accusations.

It is clear from the above I did give reason. (as usual . . not a counter argument, merely insisting that he is right, for no reason)

I showed you meaning of the word Worship. (as usual . . not a counter argument, unable to understand reason and opinions)
I highlighted your mistakes. (as usual . . not a counter argument, deception )
I quoted verse to back up what I counter-claim (as usual . . again . . deception)

Now if that isn't "reason" - then what is? (as usual . . you are not smart, right? )

You've got one track abusive mind - when you are challenged you revert to type. And you are doing it again. (as usual . . not a counter argument, and lying)

What you are also doing is . . . not answering questions raised against you. (as usual . . lying)

So what happened to you ad hominem?

Oh yeah . . .that is only for making baseless accusations against others. (as usual . . lying)

You are doing it again (as usual . . not a counter argument)

Example of a blank denial? (as usual . . not a counter argument)
Example of an ignored question? (as usual . . not a counter argument)

I give up . . talk much but evidence little. giveup

The_Chimp,
I see you talk much but evidence little.

bravo

The_Chimp

I give up . . talk much but evidence little.

I have already given up on you.

Ignore - abuse

Then repeat your old stuff.

It is VERY difficult to have a rational discussion with you. Your questions have been answered - and your objections countered.

muslims

This fits you very well . . . rotfl

See ? This what I called an argument by repetition - argumentum ad nauseam . .

I am right. I am right. I am right. I am right. I am right. I am right. I am right.
I am right. I am right. I am right. I am right. I am right. I am right. I am right.
I am right. I am right. I am right. I am right. I am right. I am right. I am right.

Therefore , I am right.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606172.msg346215#msg346215

You do not give reasons, but you merely insist that you are right until people become sick of it . . boringggg.

The_Chimp

This fits you very well . . . rotfl

Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore Ignore

Then

Repeat the same thing with nice abusive message.

And this fits you very well.

Oh look . . .

rotfl yay brickwall elektro whatever yeah

Have a few extra emoticons for good measure.

muslims

I think the pattern of your argument is very cheap . . . seems like a no-brainer . . .

some people must enjoy it very much, and spends hours just for that kind of stuff . . rotfl

The_Chimp

I think your pattern of argument is very cheap . . . seems like a no-brainer . . .

some people must enjoy it very much, and spends hours just for that kind of stuff . . rotfl

Says you . . . who has trouble stating his own name. So, why is it you asked me for my name? And then when I asked in return - you refused/ignored?

You ain't like this with me - you are like this everyone - and you have come out with some really vile verbal abuse.

muslims

Good luck with "talk much but evidence little" rotfl

The_Chimp

There is no worshipping in Islam.

You claimed there is no "worship" in Islam. And quoted the following verse

Say, "Indeed, my prayer, my rites of sacrifice, my living and my dying are for Allah , Lord of the worlds. (6.162)

Yet that is worshiping. Praying to Allah - is worshiping Allah.

Let us look at what the word worship means

"a. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
b. The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed."

There is prayer in Islam

"This is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guidance for those who have Taqwa; who believe in the unseen, and who establish Salah, and spend out of what we have provided for them"

Also - the verse you quoted

"Indeed, my prayer, my rites of sacrifice, my living and my dying are for Allah , Lord of the worlds. (6.162)"

The the love and devotion of Allah

"And yet there are some people, who replace Allah with rivals, loving them as Allah is loved. But the believers love Allah more intensely" (Surah Al-Baqarah 2165)

I have shown above that we do "worship" Allah. So please explain - what do you mean by saying we don't? What does the word "worship" mean to you?

And this time - we will go issue at a time - so there is no confusion.

muslims

You claimed there is no "worship" in Islam. And quoted the following verse

Say, "Indeed, my prayer, my rites of sacrifice, my living and my dying are for Allah , Lord of the worlds. (6.162)

Yet that is worshiping. Praying to Allah - is worshiping Allah.

You are not smart, right ?

The whole thing including "sacrifice, my living and my dying are for Allah" are not worshipping . .

that's clearly explain why you "talk much but evidence little" . . . rotfl

What does the word "worship" mean to you?

We serve Allah . .

and

For clarification . . I prefer Shabber Ahmed . . perhaps, more clearly describing Islam . .

Say, "All my duties to the Divine System, the ways to discharge them, my living and my dying are for Allah alone, the Lord of the Worlds. (6.162)

Those who wish to journey through life in blissful honor and security, are the ones who believe in the Law of Cause and Effect, though the stages of action and its reaction might be hidden from their senses. (2.3)

reason
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606111.msg344801#msg344801

p.s. still no answer . .

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606190.msg346641#msg346641

The_Chimp

You are not smart, right ?

Once more - you are in with the abuse first. Sorry - time to report you again for being nasty.

The whole thing including "sacrifice, my living and my dying are for Allah" are not worshipping . .

Why aren't they? That is worship - praying is worship.

What else does worship means?

I prefer to use the Arabic

Salah - praying.

Quran clearly says we worship Allah

= worship

"It is You we worship and You we ask for help."

"O mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous -"

"... , , "Do not worship except Allah ; and to parents ... "

"I do not worship what you worship."

Now there are many more verses using the word 'A Ba Da - which means "To worship".

So - what does this 'A Ba Da mean? If not worship?

that's clearly explain why you "talk much but evidence little" . . . rotfl

Yes. But this time I gave plenty of "evidence"

I asked you the question.

What does "worship" mean?

How are you defining worship?

Where is the answer. If you say we do not worship Allah . . . then how are you defining worship?

Where is the answer for this?

I told you one issue at a time.