Fight them until they convert?
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Hi all,
Although the Koran promotes fairness, justice and forgiveness, the following verses really stand out from the rest, and apparently go against the premise of "No compulsion in religion..."
95 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
911 But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge.
839 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.
929 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
(from Pickthall)
How can people who do not believe (and are at war) be expected to establish Salat and Zakat?
Although other verses on war can be explained by considering the context, the above verses seem to defy explanation.
I'd be glad if someone could explain them.
Thanks...
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Greetings and Peace, all group
The questions reminded me of something I'd previously read
http//islamnewsroom.com/answers/329-quranmisquotes#13
ISA, this may answer some questions.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Hi all,
Although the Koran promotes fairness, justice and forgiveness, the following verses really stand out from the rest, and apparently go against the premise of "No compulsion in religion..."
95 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
911 But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge.
839 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.
929 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
(from Pickthall)
How can people who do not believe (and are at war) be expected to establish Salat and Zakat?
Although other verses on war can be explained by considering the context, the above verses seem to defy explanation.
I'd be glad if someone could explain them.
Thanks...
I can't see how you can say from those ayas quoted that they are general and isolated and do not deal with a state of war and that therefore the context does not explain thier "coontradictions". The whole of them with the sorrounding ayas make it very clear that there is a state of war of shifting alliances and that the "mushrikin" mentioned does not need to have a connotation of religious belief but rather of disbelief in treaties and elementary rules of faithfulness and honour in human relationships. Or what do you think is pointed at when repeatedly it is said that "they do not respect the ties neither of family or pact"? Is it talking about a particular religion or about a general conduct which to all normal, honourable human beings is despicable?
I think your words saying that those ayas you quoted stand out by themselves is false. You have made them stand by themselves.
What about 9.12? It says
Will you not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the messenger and took to agression by being the first against you? Do you fear them? No it is Allah whom you should more justly fear, if you believe.
Also, careful with like in 5.25
O you who believe (amanu) Take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity (kufr) above faith (imaan). If any of you do so, they do wrong.
Here it is not talking about a religious belief but about human conduct. Iman is trustworthiness, trustfullness. Those who love kufr over iman, are those who love cheating or keeping things in confusion rather than those who make their word and acts deserving of trust and who keep to their word and undetakings. Although historically the words iman and kufr may have been made a specialty of religious classification, in their real menaing they are not so. They have their full significance as general words and not as concepts of religious adscription. All honurable people have iman, respect iman and dislike kufr, because all honourable peopla are truthful, not cheaters.
Be careful with the Qur'an, the qur'an does not so much characterise sets of beliefs, but rather sets of human behaviour.
Salaam
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Peace bookish,
That is the problem when you translate salat and zakat the traditional way. If you forget the traditional interpretation and meaning of salat then the verses make much better sense. The verses do not mean that those people have to do contact prayer or die, but rather establish a connection/tie to God and/or adopt His Judgement.
God bless you
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I'm sorry it's still pretty unconvincing. I agree that the Koran allows believers to fight against those who oppress, and keep peace with those who prefer peace.
But it still does not explain the verses that I cited - which explicitly talks about unbelievers getting spared only if they do Salat and Zakat.
Why would unbelievers be expected to do Salat and Zakat? Does this not imply a forced conversion?
I do not intend to malign you or your your faith...what I'm simply seeking is a rational explanation. And why am I doing it?
Abraham said "Yes, but that my heart may be at rest." It would also make it easy for me to explain it to someone of another faith.
Peace
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Peace
I concur with huruf...
and if you notice Man of Faith, all the ayahs quoted come from chapter 9, which does not start with the bismillah, and is the war chapter in the Quran...
context is very important... in fact vital... and Allah Himself does warn Bani Israeel that their rabbis take things out of context... they pervert meanings by taking matters out of context...
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I'm sorry it's still pretty unconvincing. I agree that the Koran allows believers to fight against those who oppress, and keep peace with those who prefer peace.
But it still does not explain the verses that I cited - which explicitly talks about unbelievers getting spared only if they do Salat and Zakat.
Why would unbelievers be expected to do Salat and Zakat? Does this not imply a forced conversion?
I do not intend to malign you or your your faith...what I'm simply seeking is a rational explanation. And why am I doing it?
Abraham said "Yes, but that my heart may be at rest." It would also make it easy for me to explain it to someone of another faith.
Peace
granting mercy when at war, and if the enemy deserves retribution, is dangerous... when the fighting is fierce, and the stakes are high, fight is to the death...
as a result, if an enemy falls in your hands, making sure he becomes a brother and not stay a foe seems to be the only recourse...would you let an enemy kill you while you watch? there was no provision for the taking of prisoners because the muslims were in small numbers, so the only logical option left is submit or die... that does not stop the hypocrites though, many of whom did submit just to have their lives spared...
these are the facts and rules of engagement in any war, kill or be killed...
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But it still does not explain the verses that I cited - which explicitly talks about unbelievers getting spared only if they do Salat and Zakat.
Why would unbelievers be expected to do Salat and Zakat? Does this not imply a forced conversion?
What is "do Salat and zakat"?
Over "Salat" there is much talk, but over zakat there is no quarrel at all. Z-k-w means purification and it is nothing to do with a ny religious cult. Is is pure an simple social welfare. Any revenue is impure which is not shared with those in need. That, I think, is a tenet in any set of human rules of any moral society. That is the same case exactly as "imaan" and "kufr" a general concept of human behaviour. No wealth is pure that rests on somebody else misery. What is that to do with imposing any religion? Do you think peoiple go to war for fun or for getting a better society for all? Evil people go to war for power. Belieiving (in human fraternity) people go to war for the sake of the survival of the people, particularly those who cannot defend themselves. Do you think after, if they win, they should give up and not take care of the needy? So why did they go to war in the first place?
As to the S-l-w I have not studied the question up till know, but by the way the Qur'an states things throughout, I have the impression that it is one of those words, like the ones mentioned a general concept that has been given a restricted one through social and political handling.
I suspect that it may have to do something with another thing which the Qur'an injoins repeatedly reflection, pondering deeply, meditating, go into a deep state of (again) reflection. That is, we reflect, work on our convictions, feel the reality of what we are and we think and belief, that is the part of the personal motive, and then act, that is, purification, zakat, act out our convictions.
You must remember that when ritually translated, salat and zakat seems particular things of a particular religion, but that in Arabic they are just words, general words. Something has to be done to make them mean a particular specifical thing in the ritual realm to deprive them of their general meaning. This may have been lost on salat, but is very much clear and present in zakat.
Salaam
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Peace huruf,
Exactly. Words with a general meaning and not some magic one.
I think brother Wakas made some progress on that. It is az simple as bond, tie and connection. I say Communion for some reason -) not far off though
God bless
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as a result, if an enemy falls in your hands, making sure he becomes a brother and not stay a foe seems to be the only recourse...
This argument does not consider alternatives. How about if the enemy simply surrenders? Why would the believers want to force their faith on them?
Wakas, I read your article. It does seem quite possible, especially then you consider the verse which comes right after it. It makes for a very interesting contrast.
But if we equate Salat with committment/bond throughout the Koran, it creates more problems than it solves. It goes against a greater part of what the Koran says about Salat.
Shortening prayers, standing up for Salat, saying Salat moderately loud, doing ablution before it etc. are difficult to associate with something as abstract as commitment/bond.
It really seems a bit difficult to put forward a rational explanation without making radical assumptions. For people who believe that Salat means prayer (which includes me), this is certainly a dilemma.
Is there no way to reconcile this with the Salat = prayer idea?
As far as I know, Layth, Edip etc. have not written any articles to explain the conflict that the above verses pose against the premise of "No compulsion in religion". I wonder what their views are on this.
Peace
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Peace bookish,
Another problem with interpreting salah and zakah as "purification" and "creating a bond" is that how on earth are you going to define these things in a state of war??
In 95 and 929 and others we are instructed to fight back until the enemy either surrenders or until they perform the salah and the zakah and pay the jizya. If you're in a war, what is your criteria for making a connection or a bond??
I think the gist of these verses is to fight against an attacking enemy either until the enemy surrenders, or until the enemy population begin to convert by themselves and you find them performing the same acts of worship - prayer and charity, etc.
I agree that salah has many meanings, of which bond and connection are one. But I do not agree with those who claim that it is a completely abstract concept with no formal physical elements. And I don't even understand the logic behind this claim given that the concept of salah is riddled with physical words such as bowing, prostrating, standing, washing, speaking aloud. If we are going to argue for a completely abstract salah then we are forced to reinterpret about a dozen words in the arabic language to suit our preconception. Also, sunni and shia scholars have never said that salah is a simple methodical set of movements. We shouldn't invent lies about them because we disagree with some aspects of their deen.
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I do not see the meaning bond or connection in salat. Also I do not see contradiction with the meaning that I pointed out before, that of introspecting and meditating and reflecting on Reality oneself, that would be the general meaning, the ritual, the ablution, the prostrating and bowing, etc. would be a particular, even if appropriate to go about introspecting and meditating. That community does it that way, but the thing done is a general concept. For instance, everybody in the world eats, but some people use fork or sticks or the hand or whatever, but the basic thing is eating, the rest are forms or accessories, which can be good, but are accessory to being fed.
As to zakat as purification I think is universally valid. Every gain that does not take into account the needs of the whole society is impure. Does seem very uncomplicated and logical. It is an unenjoyable tainted gain since is rests on the misfortune of others.
Salaam
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Peace huruf,
Check salah and its meaning. It is in my Arabic dictionary I got.
The problem is that bond or connection is not an optimal translation to English thus why I picked Communion as a substitute. It is a communication between you and The Lord and it blends in with the shortening of salat and not speaking loudly nor too quiet. I have not seen that it is any different than the communication people like Zachariah or Mosez have with God. God responds with a voice which is probably echoed in the head of the subject rather than verbally.
And you do salat before a testimony and for what reason? Yes, to receive inspiration!
I simply cannot derive prayer from the meaning of salat no matter how I try. It does seem illogical to me.
God bless you sister
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I simply cannot derive prayer from the meaning of salat no matter how I try. It does seem illogical to me
Then how do you interpret rukoo, sujood, standing, washing/ablution, speaking outloud during salah ? ... Is the dictionary not good enough for these words?
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peace all,
But if we equate Salat with committment/bond throughout the Koran, it creates more problems than it solves. It goes against a greater part of what the Koran says about Salat.
Shortening prayers, standing up for Salat, saying Salat moderately loud, doing ablution before it etc. are difficult to associate with something as abstract as commitment/bond.
The issues you raise are addressed in that article, and the links contained therein, e.g. http//www.mypercept.co.uk/slw.htm
Have you read this article?Is there no way to reconcile this with the Salat = prayer idea?
Not in my view, hence why I wrote the article.
If you're in a war, what is your criteria for making a connection or a bond??
The answer to this is given in the article, and it is simple
Once the restricted months are past (like a period of amnesty), those who violated the treaty and did not repent can be fought. If any of them now repent, they are required to uphold/maintain the oath/bond and bring forth the betterment.
In both your cases, the issue seems to be arising from this
slw = go/turn towards. This is the core meaning of a general concept.
Allow me an analogy to demonstrate its general meaning, if I say to you "go/turn towards justice". You could achieve this in many ways. For example you could start with yourself, make sure you act just, you could become a lawyer, you could help raise funds to set up law courts, you could educate others on justice, give a truthful testimony in a court case, you could become a policeman etc. Note that there are many activities you can do to "go/turn towards justice". In other words, to "go/turn towards" something is a general term and can be applied very widely.
(I simply chose "justice" as an example of a concept/object you could go/turn towards, I could have said democracy, wealth, health etc.)
One may ask, well, what are we supposed to "go/turn towards"? It depends on context, however, the core meaning of "go/turn towards" is always implied.
http//www.mypercept.co.uk/slw.htm
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Peace Wakas,
No one is denying that salah and zakah have deep meanings other than their standard accepted ones. It's clear that salah means different things in different contexts. "Turning towards" is a part of prayer, and prayer is a physical manifestation of it. In your very article you describe prayer, just without using the word 'prayer'
That is why a regular/timed salat is given. In this regular/timed salat, reading / reflection / oration of al quran is prescribed. This can be done alone or in a group/community setting.
What is that, if not prayer?
How does one "become a lawyer" at sunrise and sunset?
How does one "become a policeman" at fixed times?
Or how does one become a policeman while standing/bowing/prostrating?
And why does one need to wash up before becoming a policeman or a lawyer or acting justly?Regular timed prayer involves turning towards God. But if we abstract every term in the Quran to this extent then it begins to mean nothing.
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peace ths,
What is that, if not prayer?
I think you and I have different understandings of the word "prayer". I am using the dictionary meaning, i.e.
From google
prayer a solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or another deity.In the above there is no mention of a book, e.g. The Quran. I don't see any mention of reading/reflection/oration of a book. If you consider what I described as "prayer" that is up to you. Perhaps you meant "prayer" as in the Traditional Muslim prayer, if so, there are some similarities for sure, but they are not identical.
How does one "become a lawyer" at sunrise and sunset?
How does one "become a policeman" at fixed times?
Or how does one become a policeman while standing/bowing/prostrating?
And why does one need to wash up before becoming a policeman or a lawyer or acting justly?The above is a gross misunderstanding of my article. I recommend re-reading the article.
Regular timed prayer involves turning towards God. But if we abstract every term in the Quran to this extent then it begins to mean nothing.
From google
abstract existing in thought or as an idea but not having a physical or concrete existence.I don't know about you, but when I take an oath, or read a book etc I am physically there and what I'm reading/reciting exists. If you read my article and what you took away from it was that my view is "salat" is abstract, then I recommend re-reading.
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I've read your article many times and refer to the articles on that site regularly. They are extremely useful.
But what I don't understand is your insistence on waging a war against the word 'prayer'.Is there no way to reconcile this with the Salat = prayer idea?
Not in my view, hence why I wrote the article.
So you say that the salat = prayer idea cannot be reconciled, but then you describe something that doesn't actually contradict standard interpretation of prayer...
Prayer, according to dictionary.com
prayer
noun-
a devout petition to God or an object of worship.
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a spiritual communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving, adoration, or confession.
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the act or practice of praying to God or an object of worship.
I really don't understand how salah that involves reading/reflection/oration, thanksgiving, and glorification at fixed times of the day is not prayer. How is that not a communion with God ?
Any sunni sheikh will tell you that salah is not simply reciting words and a fixed formula, I mean there is a deep tradition around salah in traditional Islam that revolves around .
I'm not sure to what extent you're familiar with traditional Islam, but I get the impression that you equate the word 'prayer' with a fixed physical formula that's repetitive and boring, and that's why you insist on denying that salah has anything to do with prayer. So here are some links from traditional sunnis
Nouman Ali khan What is khushoo in the Salah
33 Ways of Developing Khushoo in Salah
How to Taste the Sweetness of Prayer
Your massive effort in analysing salah and sujood is commendable and impressive, but I've honestly never been able to understand the point of it all, because mainstream Islam doesn't claim that salah is a dry formulaic thing at all, especially the sufi practices.
The only difference I see between the salah in the Quran and the salah of Sunnis and Shias is that the latter say heretical things during their salah that is contradictory to the Quran, and focus far too much on things like foot placement and finger raising. The physical and outwardly elements, however, are clearly from a common root. The ablution, the standing, the recitation, the tasbeeh. Just as an example, when sunnis say (sami3a allahu liman hamidah) and stand after bowing, that bit corresponds really well with the Quranic command in 17110-111 that instructs us to give hamd and takbeer. The traditional recitation at this point is "allahumma laka l-hamdu hamdan..." and then you make takbeer as you prostrate.
Also, mainstream Islam isn't against reading from the Quran during prayer. When I still self-identified as a Sunni years ago I dug into this matter and recall that most madhhabs allow it. See here for example.
So I think the confusion here is entirely regarding the english word 'prayer', which is the best approximation of the arabic word 'salah'. Maybe 'bond prayer' or 'communion' or something might be closer, but there's no point in fighting so hard against the word, just emphasize that it's not a mechanical formula and that as long as the worshiper is maintaining some of the physical elements such as ablution, direction, standing, reading etc. alongside the spiritual ones, then they are doing it fine.
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yes it all falls out of context ,words have been mistranslated and misunderstood.
i don't want to make this sound long but if you don't have an explanation that goes with the spirit of the Quran than there must be something wrong.
here is how i look at it and i am not debating ,this is only my point of view .
salat means to wait in patience ,it actually has a timing and it does not mean prayer ,prayer is DUA3a.the aya was telling the people with the prophet then to fight those who where fighting them until they stop their aggression and prosecution.
and to do zakat meaning to do what is just ,for instance don't take what is not yours .if you are a thief and you stop stealing then that is zakat.go give what is zakat,what is good ,zakat could be opening the door for some one.
see Allah put a balance for every thing and you don't have to love me or agree with me to live with me in balance and peace.
its common respect.that is what the Aya meant .
there is nothing about conversion here.only i don't know why most people don't want to verify what they read in the Quran ,you would be surprised on how much of what you know have a very different meaning.in no way i am saying that i know,my point is that ask Allah and let the Quran be your teacher. now if it sounds wrong to you than there must be something about how we where taught those words, they probably meant something else altogether.
one piece of advice,don't trust the dictionary.
it is as elusive as hadeeth.
Huruf had it mostly right.
peace.
