Quran - The reading?
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As always, peace to you Kyle,
Peace be upon you Danish,
I leave you with the hope that peace may be upon you.
Good "luck" in your following of titles.
Thanks for realizing the easy way out. Good "luck" in determining titles/names to become some English meanings.
By the way, what does Kyle mean? Who gave you that name and why must everyone call or address you with your name/title? Just curious!
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Peace be upon you,
Thanks for realizing the easy way out.
Not the easy way, the peaceful way, which is very hard for most, a very steep path.
Good "luck" in determining titles/names to become some English meanings.
A dead title is nothing but an idol that cannot benefit nor harm you.
(576) Say "Do you serve from other than The God what does not own/possess for you harm and nor benefit, and The God He is the hearing/listening, the knowledgeable."
Realize that your partner with the God is the physical pages of a book called "Quran".
By the way, what does Kyle mean?
I remember hearing it means "fair and handsome", but I don't think that my culture respects the concept of naming anymore, so I don't make too much of that. But for sure, my mother and father can confirm that this is my name, although I have been called by many nicknames over the years. It would be a big error to think my name was "idolfree1" just because many people call me that more than they called me "Kyle". Likewise, how do you reason, from all the desciptions, that this reading(quran) is called properly "Al Quran"?
Who gave you that name and why must everyone call or address you with your name/title? Just curious!
My parents gave me that name. People addess me with that name because it is my name. It would be incorrect to address me otherwise unless I asked them to , as with "idolfree1", which I don't mind being called. However, we don't have that KNOWLEDGE regarding this reading(quran), this criterion, this Wisdom, etc. So we understand that TRUTH is not limited to one book, it is to be READ in all creation. It is the TRUTH that permeates the Universe. This book people call "Al Quran" just happens to be one of the greatest readings available to us so that we don't have to repeat the mistakes of those before us.
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salam guys,
you know i think the discussion is degenerating here.
idolfree, the word Quran means either reading or compilation, whatever you want, and it is used to refer to the physical book that was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad. If you are so afraid of the concept of names and titles, then fine... but obviously, the word Quran HAS been used to refer to the book... you want to just call it a description, someone else wants to call it a name or title, whatever.. as long as we understand that the word has a meaningful understanding.
i am not "afraid" of translating the word, or i would not have started this thread with an in-depth analysis of the word. I have stated my opinion, that I think Arabic should be revived... if you love english so much, then go ahead and use pure English. I will use Arabic when I can and if someone doesn't understand THEN i can use English to explain.
The Creator has a name?!?!?! Far above names is the God. There are only descriptions of His qualities that we know and strive to bring out of our own being.
A very glib argument, considering that undoubtedly you have read verses that say things like iqra bi-ISMi rabb (961), or 6118 So eat of (meats) on which Allah's name hath been pronounced. Obviously when I say name I dont mean a name like yours or mine.. anything to do with Allah or the hereafter cannot be fully grasped by us except in glimpses... but there are certain words used to refer to Him, and some (Allah) are purely His description. That's what I mean by name.
No one here has ever claimed that the word Quran is an empty name/title. We all agree it has a meaning directly related to the book it describes. As far as those who would claim that there are OTHER books of revelation called the Quran... bring your proof. Br Idris tried to post some verses to that effect, but in each instance it was either a big stretch or an incorrect translation.
wassalam
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
When you eat your food, go ahead and say audibally the "Name" of the God.
Me, I will make sure that I pick foods that will NOURISH me, therefore the description of THE NOURISHER will be upon my food.
DO you see the WISDOM in that? SHould I say "Allah" audibly over a Twix candybar hoping that some "miracle" wil take place and change the candybar into a nutitional meal, or should we choose foods that are in agreement with the God's DESCRIPTIONS?
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salam idolfree,
there's no point in your taking the conversation over to another topic on which there already has been plenty of debate. the point is that Allah has described for himself ISM/ASMAA or names in the Quran. I dont take those names to be proper nouns, they are descriptive/common nouns (according to the terminology used in one of Br. Ayman's articles).
As far as what you are trying to talk about, you are making a fallacious argument by implying that others deny the importance of eating nourishing foods. However, I do not think, as you imply, that foods can be in "agreement" with God's descriptions. That doesn't make sense, equating Allah's characteristics to that of mere food.
wassalam
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
You are free to believe as you like. I have offered my understanding and I leave you in Peace with yours.
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Peace brothers Idris, Shuaib, all,
I don't know why people are still arguing on this thread when brother Idris's post should leave no doubt that "quran" is a common noun.
619, 7204, 123, 1741, 1789, 1854, 2530, 2776, 3058, 3927, 4331, all say "this quran" meaning there are other readings
That is a very big conjecture on your part. At any rate, at the time the Quran was being revealed, the word Quran was an Arabic word.. this is not a word created solely for the book of Prophet muhammad. Hatha just specifies that it is THIS that is being referred to by the term Quran, NOT whatever else the Arabs used it for in their day and age... this does not in ANY way imply that there are other books of revelation called Quraan.
The above objection is merely hanging at straws.
Brother Shuaib, you ignore the rules of Arabic (and in fact most other languages) when it comes to how "ishara"/pointing constructions are used with common and proper nouns.
Let's take any example. The first verse that brother Idris refers to 619, for instance
"...uw7ya ilaya hatha al-quran..."
"...this reading has been inspired to me..."Such construction CANNOT be used with proper names and can only be used with common nouns. You can take any proper name and try to fit it above and it will not work. Let's take the proper name of another book Al-Bukhari.
"...uw7ya ilaya hatha Al-Bukhari..."
"...this Al-Bukhari has been inspired to me..."The above is ungrammatical in both Arabic and English. Here is the correct logical construction
"...uw7ya ilaya Al-Bukhari..."
"...Al-Bukhari has been inspired to me..."You have to remove "hatha"/this to make it work. I can give you many more examples if you want but I know that you are an intelligent person and you can quickly get the point. So try the same exercise as above with your other objections and substitute any proper name in the place of the common noun "quran" and see if the sentence stays grammatical and logical.
I am at a loss as to why you are still arguing about this. You ALREADY admitted from DAY 1 that "quran" is a common noun and hence you started this whole thread and translated it. Common nouns are translated while proper names are not translated. Common nouns are common (i.e. not unique) BY DEFINITION.
I hope that I was able to clarify things a little bit for you as you have helped me clarify things on other occasions.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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salam br ayman,
nice to hear from you again bro.. argue is a strong word, i think we are just trying to achieve the truth and share opinions.
thanks for your explanation of ishaara, although i think it should have been obvious that i agreed on that point already. if you look at the sentences you quoted of me, i explained the exact same thing in other words. "Hatha just specifies that it is THIS that is being referred to by the term Quran, NOT whatever else the Arabs used it for in their day and age." By stating this I accepted the fact that Quran was not a proper noun. I went on to clarify my main point which was "this does not in ANY way imply that there are other books of revelation called Quraan."
Basically in other words, I stated that merely claiming Quran is not a proper noun, does not automatically imply that the word Quran was used to refer to other books of revelation too. It may have been used to refer to other things in general, and MIGHT have been used to refer to other books of revelation, but you have to prove it.
As far as using the term "Quraan" to describe other books of revelation in this day and age, I think that would be rather confusing dont you? Not only that, but I think it would detract from the uniqueness and perfectness of the Quran which is unparalleled. At the time the Quran was revealed (and of course from then onwards), no other book of revelation exists which remains pure from tampering and changing. In fact MOST religions openly claim their books were not revealed but rather were written as commentaries by human beings.
So basically, I completely agree with you. The only thing I am not convinced of is that it was ACTUALLY used to describe revelations other than this one in Arabic.
wassalam
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As'Salaam Alaykum All,
They say that in the Ennuit language there are over one hundred words for snow, now whether you use one of these one hundred words or just... snow, none of them are what you are describing. A word, in ANY language is simply that a word; a sound or combination of sounds, or it's representation in writing or printing that symbolizes and communicates a meaning.
Example RAIN... RAIN... RAIN... does everybody know what I mean by rain? Now... did anybody get wet? Of course not... because the word rain is not the "reality" of rain, and if you and I are standing in a rain shower it it won't matter if you call it "rain" and I call it "ojo'gbu", we will both get wet. Now if we stand in a shower in our house we will also get wet, but... will we call it rain. To take the example a little further... If I say it's raining cats and dogs are you going to reinforce your umbrella because cats and dogs are heavier than water? By the way... when I referred to rain as "it" did anyone get lost in the translation from "rain" to "it"? We can Scream... "RAIN!" all day long, and it still won't "BE" rain.
We may call it the Qur'an, the Great Reading, the Message, the Collected Teachings... there will be those who go beyond the words and perceive the meaning and "spirit" of the words, and there are those who will simply see a collection of words made from letters, then they will argue ceaselessly because they are caught up/attached to a form, when what they are describing is formless. Words are empty and meaningless if they fail to convey the spirit of what they represent. The sounds will have no more meaning for them than... "Rain, Rain go away... Olu'sanya wants to play... with words... because they are never what they describe!
So who's right? Everybody! Well then who's wrong? Everybody! Everybody who gets past the word and through to it's "essential meaning" is correct, everybody who doesn't... is incorrect. It doesn't matter how well they phrase their... words. They will be empty... and meaningless, a void of understanding. So we should take care, so that we can avoid getting trapped by the words we use. We must not let our attachment to words "reign" over our reason, and we will end up showering each other with more... and more... meaningless words, and still... without understanding each other.
Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanya lol -
Peace ayman, all
perhaps not knowing well enough that "The Reading" becomes just another title/name that many are addressing as such, only to find out that its now been given an uncertain and meaningless English title.
You are right The Reading is just another empty title like Quran. On the other hand, the great honorable reading is a description not a title.
Even "The Reading" might not be an empty title.....i might be wrong but according to my(admitedly poor)knowledge of english article "the" might denote and/or mean "supreme"....i have read of it, if i recall well, in webster and oxford dictionary.....but not sure if i got it right.... i think similar case might be with al- ilah or "allah"......
whatever, "the" denotes well known notion/object or previosly mentioned, or one that is subject of discussion , so when we say The Reading, it should be quite clear, at least on this forum, that we think of The God revealed reading.....
best wishes, Zlatan
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They say that in the Ennuit language there are over one hundred words for snow, now whether you use one of these one hundred words or just... snow, none of them are what you are describing. A word, in ANY language is simply that a word; a sound or combination of sounds, or it's representation in writing or printing that symbolizes and communicates a meaning.
Wow! You said it! Reminds me of a chinese movie I watched called "Hero". There was a part where the main character talked about a chinese province called "Qin", where he asked a master at calligraphy and the sword to write for him the word 'sword'. Apparently in that little village/province of china there were 19 ways to write the word sword... he asked the master to write the 20th variaton. shock
We can Scream... "RAIN!" all day long, and it still won't "BE" rain.
Well said. We can use whatever word(s) we want, end of the day, what do they mean to us?... what do we do with them?
It is the God who reveals the verses to us.
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Peace brother Shuaib,
Thank you for you response.
thanks for your explanation of ishaara, although i think it should have been obvious that i agreed on that point already. if you look at the sentences you quoted of me, i explained the exact same thing in other words. "Hatha just specifies that it is THIS that is being referred to by the term Quran, NOT whatever else the Arabs used it for in their day and age." By stating this I accepted the fact that Quran was not a proper noun. I went on to clarify my main point which was "this does not in ANY way imply that there are other books of revelation called Quraan."
Remember that the great reading is in Arabic, a language that was ALREADY in existance. The word "quran" existed in the Arabic language before the revelation. It is like saying "reading" doesn't in any way imply that there are other books that are read. Or if you take "quran" to mean "compilation", it is like saying "compilation" doesn't in any way imply that there are other things that are compiled.
As I said before, common nouns are by definition common (not unique) descriptions.
Basically in other words, I stated that merely claiming Quran is not a proper noun, does not automatically imply that the word Quran was used to refer to other books of revelation too. It may have been used to refer to other things in general, and MIGHT have been used to refer to other books of revelation, but you have to prove it.
Brother, there is only one "great reading" or you can call it "honorable reading", which is the Arabic book that descended on the prophet. A pre-quranic Arab would have understood the term "quran" as simply "a reading". Hence, those who didn't like it told the prophet to bring a reading other than this one. So a false reading is also a "reading" in the Arabic language.
As far as using the term "Quraan" to describe other books of revelation in this day and age, I think that would be rather confusing dont you? Not only that, but I think it would detract from the uniqueness and perfectness of the Quran which is unparalleled. At the time the Quran was revealed (and of course from then onwards), no other book of revelation exists which remains pure from tampering and changing. In fact MOST religions openly claim their books were not revealed but rather were written as commentaries by human beings.
That is why I always use the term great reading or honorable reading because otherwise it is confusing as you said. When we are reading it, The God doesn't need to always use those extra terms because "quran" is refering to what is being read presently. When I tell you "this reading speaks the truth" while you are reading something then it is not confusing and you know that I am talking about what you are reading. Otherwise, I have to further clarify by saying "the great reading speaks the truth", for example.
So basically, I completely agree with you. The only thing I am not convinced of is that it was ACTUALLY used to describe revelations other than this one in Arabic.
There are no other great readings or honorable readings so if one uses those descriptions, there is no chance of confusion.
Best wishes and peace,
Ayman
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Peace Olusanya,
Thank you for your interesting comments.
Example RAIN... RAIN... RAIN... does everybody know what I mean by rain? Now... did anybody get wet? Of course not... because the word rain is not the "reality" of rain, and if you and I are standing in a rain shower it it won't matter if you call it "rain" and I call it "ojo'gbu", we will both get wet. Now if we stand in a shower in our house we will also get wet, but... will we call it rain. To take the example a little further... If I say it's raining cats and dogs are you going to reinforce your umbrella because cats and dogs are heavier than water? By the way... when I referred to rain as "it" did anyone get lost in the translation from "rain" to "it"? We can Scream... "RAIN!" all day long, and it still won't "BE" rain.
Actually, in the great reading (lower case) we see extensive use of similies. For example, when The God says that the rejecters are deaf and blind, no one thinks that they are really deaf or blind exactly like no one thinks that it is raining cats and dogs. However, those idioms evoke a certain mental image. The God is addressing our mind with mental images. Also, such idioms prevent the corruption of the message. In your example, no one can claim that "cats" is the proper name of a specific animal in Jerusalem or Makka that only the clergy know about.
We may call it the Qur'an, the Great Reading, the Message, the Collected Teachings...
We may not because all those are labels and meaningless proper names. You have to remove the CAPS and make them common nouns to be meaningful.
there will be those who go beyond the words and perceive the meaning and "spirit" of the words,
The meaning is arrived at by translating, otherwise it is like saying "Ojo'gbu".
and there are those who will simply see a collection of words made from letters, then they will argue ceaselessly because they are caught up/attached to a form, when what they are describing is formless. Words are empty and meaningless if they fail to convey the spirit of what they represent. The sounds will have no more meaning for them than... "Rain, Rain go away... Olu'sanya wants to play... with words... because they are never what they describe!
The objective is not to describe the physical phenomena of rain but it is to evoke the mental image of wanting to have fun. As such, idioms do convey meaning.
So who's right? Everybody! Well then who's wrong? Everybody! Everybody who gets past the word and through to it's "essential meaning" is correct, everybody who doesn't... is incorrect.
To get at its essential meaning one must understand a word. Translating a word is a must for understanding.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace brother Zlatan,
You are right The Reading is just another empty title like Quran. On the other hand, the great honorable reading is a description not a title.
Even "The Reading" might not be an empty title.....i might be wrong but according to my(admitedly poor)knowledge of english article "the" might denote and/or mean "supreme"....i have read of it, if i recall well, in webster and oxford dictionary.....but not sure if i got it right.... i think similar case might be with al- ilah or "allah"......
I think you misunderstood me brother. I was refering to the capitalization turning a meaningful common description "the reading" into a meaningless proper name The Reading.
whatever, "the" denotes well known notion/object or previosly mentioned, or one that is subject of discussion , so when we say The Reading, it should be quite clear, at least on this forum, that we think of The God revealed reading.....
Yes I totally agree except for the CAPS.
Peace,
Ayman