Why would God allow the Injeel and Torah to be violated, but not the Quran?
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Peace,
This is the problem when you see the interpretation of 'ketaab' as book but there is no such book other than the so-called 'Quran'. The Bible is no book in that regard but a collection of hearsay and a transcript of. he brief criteria given to Moses and has probably been moved from one language to another more than once. So the Message is what God has promised to keep intact and so it has as long as you discard the "extra-religious" ideas flown up over the millennia. The Book (Quran) is a physical reminder and testament to that Message and the only scriptural information transferred directly from God except the Criteria given to Moses allegedly on stonetablets.
This is not just taken out of thin air but I have been looking into this for a long time and drawn logical conclusions from The Book and that, for example, 'al-ketaab' cannot be a concrete object at least not in its context.
It is like a story/lore that has been narrated starting somewhere and is still active.
God bless you
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Peace all,
Simple question that has been bothering me. Perhaps some of you might know of a response from the Quran itself.
Why protect the Quran from forgery and falsification, and not protect the previous revelations?
Salaam,
Becasuse Al-Indjeel, Al-Tawraat and Al-Zaboor are not books, and they never got corrupted.
Salaam,
Bender -
So if they are not books then what exactly is the Torah and Injeel? How is a story/lore protected?
And what is the point of the Quran's unchanging nature and the protection of its text if the protection of its text isn't vital to its overall protection as in the Injeel and Torah?
This is especially relevant to the previous revelations. The Injeel and Torah aren't even the only previous revelations, and we are told every community has been sent messengers. So what about all those other relevations? How have they been 'protected'?
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Having thoroughly read the Tanakh, Gospel, Quran (and also countless of other "Apocryphal" books + other books which humanity considered as "holy" I can clearly say that God DO protect the meanings (but not the writings) of all those books.
Few simple example will be
- a book say "God eats and drinks" and in another book one can find "God doesn't eats and drinks".
- a book say "Thou shall prepare burn offering for God" and in another book one can find "God never ordered burnt offerings"
- a book say "It takes 1000 years for something to reach and decided by God" and in another book one can find "God knew the content of of one prayer even before he/she say it".
- a book say "God created the world in 7 days" he revealed countless evidence that this universe was not created in 7 days. (furthermore He revealed another evidence for the possibility of "Multiverse"
And many others..
Thus it's up to the readers to choose which one is right..
God guide those who deserved to be guided, using or not using any books..And "those who deserved to be guided" is in no relation whatsoever to his/her ancestry..
Thus the claimed of "We are the only Guided People (or Chosen People) and other than us is definitely unguided" is totally B.S.Salam / Peace
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@ ths,
The Quran has answered this question precisely in 2106 "Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it.". Whereas this verse is much abused to support abrogation of certain Quranic verses (using completely impotent arguments) the actual meaning of this verse relates to the question which you asked in the OP. The previous scriptures were not meant for "globalization", so to speak. They were specific messages for specific communities living in specific eras.
The Quran on the other hand, contains guidance for an era of the "hyperpower", where the possibility has opened up for one community, following God's laws (revealed in the Quran as well as by mastering scientific knowledge) to rise above and usher in the "end of history" (to steal the concept from Fukuyama). The 'Day of Deen' itself would be the final proof. That is the prophecy and the promise of the Quran.
That era would last until mankind again falls away from the Message, and at that point, Judgement will come... But I digress.... Here's an explanation of this verse by G.A.P, supporting verses are bolded http//www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/expo/expo_002.htm
106 The Ahl-ul-Kit?ab also question the need for a new revelation (Quran) when previous revelations from Allah existed. They further ask that if the Quran was from Allah why did it contain injunctions which were contrary to the earlier revelation (The Torah).
Tell them that Our way of sending revelation to successive Anbia is that
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injunctions given in earlier revelations which were meant only for a particular time, are replaced by other injunctions, and
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injunctions which were to remain in force permanently but were abandoned, forgotten or adulterated by the followers of previous Anbia are given again in their original form (22/52).
And all this happens in accordance with Our laid down standards, over which We have complete control.
Now this last Code of life which contains the truth of all previous revelations (5/4, is complete in every respect (6/116), and will always be preserved (15/9), has been given.
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Well I can't proove it with verses, but I somehow think that the original "kitab" may well be the physical reality. Scriptures can be changed, but the physical creation cannot that easily, at least not in its totality. There are so many verses hinting to physical/natural phenomena, so that may mean that we should look there if we are unsure about the textual revelation.
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Salaam Mohsin7,
Thanks for the commentary by GAP, it's quite useful. I'm familiar with verse 2106, and am in full agreement with you that it is about past revelations and not abrogation of Quranic verses.
I think you're onto something with your explanation about globalization. I can't say I'm 100% convinced by it yet, but I think it's a strong answer. The Quran tells us that each community has been sent its own messengers, and that people in the past have killed or abused their messengers. It also tells us that this Quran is protected by God. I can't remember off the top of my head where in the Quran it states explicitly that it's the final revelation to mankind, but it would make sense that at that point in history, the world was globalized enough for the message to affect all of mankind and therefore be a final one.
I just think that probably Christianity was also revealed in such a time, and indeed Christianity as a religion has spread further around the globe than Islam
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So if they are not books then what exactly is the Torah and Injeel? How is a story/lore protected?
And what is the point of the Quran's unchanging nature and the protection of its text if the protection of its text isn't vital to its overall protection as in the Injeel and Torah?
This is especially relevant to the previous revelations. The Injeel and Torah aren't even the only previous revelations, and we are told every community has been sent messengers. So what about all those other relevations? How have they been 'protected'?
Red Torah as far as I am concerned means teaching (plural tawrat = teachings) and in the context of God's Realm it refers to all the things that God taught Moses and that the Messengers that came after him adhered to. And the easiest way to refine what Moses really taught and whatnot is to filtrate the Bible's Old Testament ("Books of Moses" or Tanakh and identify the transcript of the tablets given to Moses. But it is not utterly important since the 'Teachings of Moses' live on with the Qur'an (see one of my latest posts in Nearness and Guidance -> Knowledge and Wisdom = Peace and Prosperity).
Many or even most of the commandments are valid as of today except some community-specific prohibitions which we learn about in The Book (Qur'an) and are therein explicitly claimed to have been ordered as a punishment for the transgressions done by the Children of Israel. Despite having some extra prohibitions the Jewish community did not hesitate to invent hundreds of rules never authorized by God as is also presented in The Book.
If you follow what Moses taught then you follow the Torah and it means the practices and not necessarily the concrete object you see today.
Blue By those who speak the Truth, and those who seek the Truth. The Message is quite simple and there are no more rules than what Moses was taught several millennia ago except some reliefs as it seems.
Green God's Message and System never changes. People can change scriptures but they will never be able to change God's Word. In ways The Book has been tampered with even if its original Arabic letters are untouched. And I, personally, have not excluded the possibility that it is even physically tampered with. It does not change the Message because it is well preserved both in This Book and old hearsay. You can discover the true Message of God without ever reading The Book. Nonetheless The Book is the best preserved narration of God and it seems to be a narrative coming as if God composed it Himself compared to inspired words that Messengers of old wrote down.
God can surely preserve a physical book if He so wishes, but I myself see that there lies a trap within The Book that those with polluted hearts are led further astray. The issue with it is that people invent intricate meanings for words which carry a much simpler meaning. The Pagan tendencies with practices which look like that you literally try to please a neanderthal god.
When we talk about God's Lore He told us to apply our brains, eye-sight and hearing in the process.
Purple People twist the stories of the Messengers and Prophets of old. It is talked about in The Book. God corrects some corruptions.
God bless you
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I can't say I'm 100% convinced by it yet,
I just think that probably Christianity was also revealed in such a time, and indeed Christianity as a religion has spread further around the globe than Islam
Let's run some analytics, with regards to the prophecy in verse 933 "He it is Who sent His messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions, though the polytheists may be averse."
The question Is this verse referring to our past, or our future? Did Islam ever reach a point where it prevailed over EVERY other system in this world?
For the sake of argument, let's assume that the Abassids or the Umayyads or Mughals or the Ottomans etc. were "Islamic" systems (and they obviously were not). Even if they were, did they ever reach a climax where their might, economy, influence or population could actually "prevail" over that of the rest of the world combined? Of course not. Even today, the US would not be able to "prevail" over the rest of the world combined, and this is supposed to be the world's first official "hyperpower" . Back then China was likely the richest region in the world, and Europe was still more powerful militarily. Case in point The Crusades. Even though Muslims today think they "won" something when Europeans hacked their way straight into the middle east and held a capitol city for almost two centuries! How exactly should we be proud of that? Because oh great, we got it back.. eventually...? yay...
Anyways, the conclusion from all of this should be obvious the verse 933 simply can not be about any period in the past. Thus, the actual "golden age" of Islam, and therefore the world itself, lies in the future.
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salaam
Very interesting question.For the injeel, my response is easy Injeel is not gospel and injeel has never been corrupted.
This is injeel for me
http//www.zarathushtra.com/z/gatha/dji/The%20Gathas%20-%20DJI.pdfsince Issa is not Jesus, gospel is obviouly not injeel but gospel is still inspired from true life of Issa.
For Tawrat, it is more difficult but it seems that what we call tawrat is not tawrat.
in these verses 7-145;7-150;7-154;54-13, Allah mentions tablets in wich message of God was written and given to Moses.
According to torah, is seems that Moses broke the tablets and rewrote them. This contradicts quran 7-154.7154 And when the anger subsided from Moses, he took the tablets; and in its inscription was a guidance and a mercy for those who reverence their Lord.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tablets_of_Stone
So, before saying that tawrat has been corrupted, we have to agree on what is tawrat ?
is it tablets, actual torah or another thing ?Whatever is tawrat, it is funny to note that Allah use what seems same root tawara here (16-59;38-32) in a meaning of something hidden.
Peace
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Peace be upon you
Why protect the Quran from forgery and falsification, and not protect the previous revelations?
Why we must protect something with a lot of conjenctures.
I already tried to read Bible, but I got bored in the middle way.Too many irrational verses in there.Many verses in the Koran said if this Book is mussadiq (confirming) the previous Books.
Bible mostly talking bout histories, biographies, Judaic/Israeli traditions but rarely talking about teaching of Abraham religion.
Too many bla bla bla in the current Bible, not get to the point.Quran is short, straight to the point and the conclusion of previous Books.
For the injeel, my response is easy Injeel is not gospel and injeel has never been corrupted.
This is injeel for me
http//www.zarathushtra.com/z/gatha/dji/The%20Gathas%20-%20DJI.pdfWhat is your proof if the Gatha an actual Injeel?
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Salaam David,
I already tried to read Bible, but I got bored in the middle way.Too many irrational verses in there.
Well this is what I mean. The original "bible" was written in Aramaic. Yet the oldest Bible we have today is one of the Great Uncial Codices. We do not have the original, and we know for a fact that the text of the Bible has changed over time.
As for the Quran, we do not have the 'original' Quran. But we do know that the text has remained intact and preserved in the original language, and we have a record of the variations.
The Bible you read is just a translation. It would be like reading Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation of the Quran only, without the original text.
Salaam Mohsin7,
I understand your argument, and again agree with your tafsir of the verse. I also agree that the Umayyads and Abbasids and Mamluks and their ilk were not Islamic empires. But this doesn't answer the question 'why?'.
We know that the Quran contains the truth of all previous revelations (5/4, is complete in every respect (6/116), and will always be preserved (15/9).
But why preserve this revelation, and none of the others?
I think the strongest answer so far is that the world simply reached a point of globalization where a final revelation could be given to all of humanity. I don't really buy the argument that God has protected all the previous revelations through their meaning of key tenets or whatever. Sure, we know the key tenets of some earlier religions such as Christianity and Judaism. But if each community has been sent a messenger in the past then you'd expect the entire world to be filled with past revelations that all confirm each other. I think the vast majority have been wiped out, and many extant ones, like Hinduism for example, are distorted beyond recognition.
Still, I can't help but wonder, why let all the others go astray and not the Quran? And why were the Arabs the final ones to receive a prophet? And what about the remote untouched tribal people in the Amazon and Indian Ocean...globalization has not reached them yet and they will have never even heard of the Quran...
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What is your proof if the Gatha an actual Injeel?
Salaam
i explained why here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604929.0headlines are
- Meriem is sister of Aaron (19-2 and daughter of imran. That's Family of Moses also according old testament.
- Issa is YESHUA BIN NUN (YESHUA=JESUS, BIN is feminine of BEN, NUN is NUN that is devoted women and root for word mother in many languages).
- YESHUA BIN NUN is successor of Moses,quite a son for him, and gave promised land to bani israel according to Torah. He did the "job".
- Zoroastrianism appeared quite same era as "torah".
- Zoroastrians were, with the romans, the two superpowers in era of Muhammad. Arabia was between them. Quranic Nassara are Zoroastrians while the "opposite" faith was the roman /yahood faith. How to explain that quran never mention faith of the "other superpower", at the right side of arabia ?
-Zoroastrianism influenced both judaism (babylon exile), judeo-christian faith (roman cult of Mithra) ans islam (Bukhari, Muslim, tabari, thirmidhi ... were all with zorostrians ancestors).
-Probably, ZUL QARNEIN (two peoples) was the surname of Issa. Issa preached to two peoples Hebrews (as Yeshua BIN NUN) and Persians (as Zoroaster). It is perhaps why he was rejected for "trahison" by the "elected people".
there is many other indirects proofs. For example, "the son of god" mythologies of horus, zeus,mithra and son on appeared after the "on of sister of aaron".
Christianism is simply a mix between judaic and zorostrianism faith compiled by Constantin emperor at Nicee concile.but the main proof for me is gathas itself. it worth really to be read. i had no doubt that is inspired from my god, from the firts lecture, even if it was from a translated version.
of course, i can be wrong. let say that gathas is injeel for me at 90%.
Peace -
But why preserve this revelation, and none of the others?
Salaam ths,
What's the point in preserving time and culturally specific guidance beyond it's relevant domain? It might even be counter productive. Having one perfect book remaining means there are no competitors that can challenge the Quran on rational grounds.
I think the strongest answer so far is that the world simply reached a point of globalization where a final revelation could be given to all of humanity.
Exactly.
I don't really buy the argument that God has protected all the previous revelations through their meaning of key tenets or whatever.
Agreed.
Still, I can't help but wonder, why let all the others go astray and not the Quran?
Because the alternative is taking away 'free will' and turning us all into Terminators (and then, Skynet wins...).
After all God did not corrupt those scriptures, we did that ourselves (humans, aka galactic idiots). God of course knew that we would screw up so He planned accordingly.
The verses in the Quran such as 2256, 18/29, 76/3, 90/10, which are usually mistranslated, explain this situation precisely. G.A.P has proved logically that these verses do not mean that people go astray because God does not want to guide certain people. But their actual meaning is that if God wanted to take away 'free will' and make us all obedient, He could have, but He has let us choose the wrong path so as to preserve our 'will' and this is why there is "no compulsion".
And why were the Arabs the final ones to receive a prophet?
Personally... I think it's due to geography (I mean come on, they call it "the MIDDLE east" after all), the language (Classical Arabic is the perfect language for such a 'future proof' message) and of course, the promise made to Abraham (I think there's evidence of this somewhere?)
And what about the remote untouched tribal people in the Amazon and Indian Ocean...globalization has not reached them yet and they will have never even heard of the Quran...
I've bolded the key word in that sentence. Another reason why we need to get in gear, pick up our game, and fix this situation ASAP... Cuz clearly the yanks/EU/"christians" aren't fit "to hold the mantle" (to steal a line from HALO 4).
But... I'll give credit where it's due... They've done pretty well (that 6 century head start apparently really helped), but I'm sure they're past their peak..
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Peace Mohsin7.
Personally... I think it's due to geography (I mean come on, they call it "the MIDDLE east" after all),
The region is not called this way everywhere. In Germany for example we call it the "Near East/ Naher Osten" whereas the "Middle East/ Mittlerer Osten" is further eastwards http//de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittlerer_Osten
By the way, why not the middle west instead or even better a place between the east and the west?
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I think the strongest answer so far is that the world simply reached a point of globalization where a final revelation could be given to all of humanity.
A book exists for guidance knowledge Life Manual for each period of time.
Allah the Exalted obscures that about which He so wills;
And He the Exalted perpetuates that which He so wills.
Take note; the Mother of the Book has been sent from His Grace.
Era of universalization of information
