The Quran was sent down in the 4th Century?
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It is obvious that Maryam was regarded as a loose woman by her community, but that in its turn is no proof or hint at all that she was a virgin mother. No hint at all. None. There are many ways a woman may not be unchaste and still be caught in a situation where she is regarded as such. Speciall if the existence of an unexplained child is there. Unexplained is not the same thing as of virgin birth or without the intervention of a flesh father. Should I mention the millions of women who have been raped and become mothers after? The thing is that God did nto want to tell us anything about it. Did not want to tell us anything about it. It was not for us to know, we do not get anything out of knowing. What we are being told is nothing to do with that. In fact what we are being told is that we shou7ld look at what is there and not at what is not there and we cannot know.
However it might have been Maryam was a single mother. ABOUT THAT there is no doubt, but still, not there being any doubt about it, we TODAY, and for centuries and centuries spite on single mother. -we are real pigs, fighting over the virginity of a woman who was a single mother as if that was what mattered and we spit in single mothers all they way. And oh, God, poor thing, she was overwhelmed at the foot of the palm tree... BUT SHE WAS A VIRGIN. That is all that matters. And today there are those that if they found a woman in such circumstance be it Maryam, they would have stoned her.
But the thing is that the most important thing is the father, even if he did exist onlyfor a few minutes. A few minutes that entitles any man to figure in the genealogy of any meaningful person, provided they want it after the fact. Does not matter that they abandon the pregnant woman, no magtter that thye could not care less, it is them, the "fathers" that matter. Where does the Qur'an say such a thing. Who cares who was 3isa's father. He does not appear, for good reasons or for bad reasons he does not appear. Where is Musas father, where is Dawoods father?
May be she, Maryam, did meet some young boy who died right after and there were no witnesses of their marriage, may be a thousand things. Since the angel had announced her that she would conceive, she would have accepted any fate God meant for her.
God does not want us to llok at 3isa's father, there enough fathers in other narrations of the Qur'an, God did want us to look at Maryam, just Maryam, and 3isa. So, that means that we have to make a virgin mother out of her' Why?
Salaam
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Salam,
We should regard that Chaste and Virgin are two different terms. Someone may be a virgin but not a chaste person and also when someone is not virgin that doesn't mean he or she is an unchaste person!
Maryam was living in an ignorant society, she was an orphan and most probably a prophetess. She was devoted to the temple but the temple was already corrupted by the mischief of the Children of Israel. So when Maryam decided to leave the temple, she knew that she wouldn't be welcomed by her community hence she went to another location, married and bore Isa!
Maryam keeps her marriage secret and when Isa reaches maturity he goes with her mother to their community and declares his mission!
There's nothing twisted and complicated about it!
342 (Mary kept a spotless character as she grew up.) Angels told her, God has chosen you, given you a spotless character and given you distinction among the women of your times.
343 She was told by angels to gather courage, quit monasticism, submit to the command of her Lord and join her family for leading a normal life bowing to the design that God has ordained for people.
344 (O Messenger) We are revealing to you these events of the unseen history (so that you may dispel conjecture). You were not present with them when they threw their pens (casting lots) which of them should take charge of Mary (after Zakariya). And you were not present with them when they quarreled about it.
345 Angels said, O Mary! God gives you the good news through a word from Him. His name would be Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, held in honor in this world and among the ones close (to Me) in the Hereafter.
346 He will speak to people while very young and in ripe old age with his faculties well intact.
347 Mary exclaimed! O My Lord, How shall I have a son when no man has (intimately) touched me? He said, Just as God creates everyone according to His laws (340). When God decrees a matter, it starts happening.
348 And God will teach him the scripture and the wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel.
349 And He will be a Messenger to the Children of Israel. He will say to them, I come to you with revelation from your Lord. If you follow me, I will raise you from dust to the heights of glory by the command of God (7176). The blind among you will begin to see the truth. Those of you who are spotted with sin, I will heal them, and I shall grant real life to those who are just dragging on without purpose; all by God's leave, according to His laws. I am here to establish justice and equity. I shall see to it how much you hoard in your houses and how much you spend on the community. My teachings are sufficient signs for you to believe.
350 I confirm the truth in the Torah before me, and make permissible to you some of what was forbidden. I have come with your Lord's revelation. Be mindful of His commands and obey me.
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World English Dictionary
Chaste (test)
? adj
- not having experienced sexual intercourse; virginal
- abstaining from sexual intercourse, esp that which is unlawful or immoral
- (of conduct, speech, etc) pure; decent; modest
- (of style or taste) free from embellishment; simple; restrained
'chastely
? adv
'chasteness
- refraining from sexual intercourse that is regarded as contrary to morality or religion; virtuous.
- virgin.
- not engaging in sexual relations; celibate.
- free from obscenity; decent chaste conversation.
- undefiled or stainless chaste, white snow.
? n
virgin (vdn)? n
- a person, esp a woman, who has never had sexual intercourse
- an unmarried woman who has taken a religious vow of chastity in order to dedicate herself totally to God
- any female animal that has never mated
- a female insect that produces offspring by parthenogenesis
- a person who is new to or inexperienced in a specified field a political virgin
? adj
6. of, relating to, resembling, suitable for, or characteristic of a virgin or virgins; chaste
7. pure and natural, uncorrupted, unsullied, or untouched virgin purity
8. not yet cultivated, explored, exploited, etc, by man virgin territories
9. being the first or happening for the first time
10. (of vegetable oils) obtained directly by the first pressing of fruits, leaves, or seeds of plants without applying heat
11. (of a metal) made from an ore rather than from scrap
12. occurring naturally in a pure and uncombined form virgin silver
13. physics (of a neutron) not having experienced a collision -
No matter that people are not confused about the meaning of virgin and the meaning of chaste, but the thing is that a definition in English does not get anybody anywhere. If we are getting into that kind of confusion at least let it be with the original, whether such confusion would be at all posible in the original.
There is in arabic a proper way to say virgin and a proper way to say chaste, no need to lead people into confusion.
Salaam
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Peace.
Where is the confusion?
The angel tells Mary she is going to have a child!
She responds by saying How can I? No man has touched me? I am not chaste!
The angel replies God has decreed that the matters has been decided, you will have a child.
Now ,if she understood it to be in the future, i.e with a man, Why would she utter such statement? If the angel said to her ,in the near future you will meet someone and become pregnant with a child, would the " no man has touched me" be said by her?
Of course she understood it to be " as she is now" ,without a partner!!!!!
Does God not choose the words carefully? Would the Qoran use words that are not necessary?
There is no confusion. All the signs that she conceived without being touched by a man are there?
GOD bless .
Peace. -
Peace good logic,
We have to think carefully so we not risk conjectural ideas. I almost considered the ideas for a minute. Thanks for clarifying verses.
God bless you
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Well no confusion at all, virgin is virgin chaste is chaste, as to that it is at that very moment that she is going to have a child, it is not at all obvious or more obvious than the future . Obviously at tha tmoment she is not pregnant. She will become pregnant afterwards. Nothing in the speeach by the angels indicates that it is now that she is becoming pregnant. The child is for the future. If you understand it otherwise, it is your understanding, but obvious it is not, by any length. And there being the christian narration, one can perfectly see from where the confusion.
Salaam
What Maryam says that no man has touched her not that no man will touch her -
The word used, sparsely, in the Qur'an to say virgin is bikr. There is another way in Arabic that I do not know that it has been used int he Qur'an to mean that, but it is the word that is used by christians to name Virgin Mary which is 3adhra'.
In fact the Qur'an does not use any of those words for Maryam, or for anybody else, nor there is a single word that Maryam uses to say that she is chaste. It uses a negative, "I am not baghiya" (translated as "unchaste". The virgin part up to that point she makes it clear saying that "no basharhas touched me".
So indeed, with whatever words, the events are made clear.
Up to that point she was virgin and she was chaste. We have no reason to suspect that she was unchaste afterwards, since precisely God purified her to become a prophet and mother of a prophet, but we have no reason either to think that she continued being a virgin. Being a virgin is not a value, like being chaste is a value. Why should it matter that she was or she was not a virgin? Who cares about that. She is chaste, like Yusuf was chaste. What is the need to find out something that does nto concern us. Are we told about any prophet in the Qur'an whether he was a virgin or not at any given point?
When she first got the announcement in 3.42 the angels talk to her.
Then in 19.16 we are told that she withdrew from her family to a place in the East keeping herself hidden from them. Then God sent His spirit, shich appeared to her in all respects as a human being.
We can read the dialogue quietly in the Qur'an, it is there from 19.16 onwards.
So, in 3.42 the angels (plural) talk to her and make her an announcement.
Then in 19.16 she withdraws from her family to a place in the east where they cannot know what she does and God sends to her His spirit which in all respects appears to her as a human being. And he reminds her of the announcement...
And then she becomes pregnant...
Of course she is chaste. ?Virgin? ?Why should she need the presence of a ruh in all respects appearing to her as a human being for the announcement to be made true?
We may believe whatever we want, but one thing stands out glaringly The Qur'an, the God that speaks in it, does not give a damn about virginity. He does about chastity. Even the one time He mentions "virgins" in 66.5 He does in sense as if He boasted on behalf of the Prophet on what he could have by way of wives who would give him standing but no problems and mentions non virgins and virgins.
So what is this interest on having Maryam be a virgin? Making a miracle of it? Then why not make it plain and explicit in the Qur'an? Look she conceived as she still was a virgin, in the past, completed action. The fact is the Qur'an doesn't give a damn about miracles either, because we are continually reminded that everything is and lasts because God does it, that everything we know and look at is in itself a miracle. What more miracles do we want? If we need more miracles we should go to circus or a magicians session. Is that the way God calls us to believe, when He continually instructs to reflect, to ponder, to think deeply... TO REASON?
Why, in order to make Maryam pregnant should he need or want to send His roh in the appearance of a bashar?
Is not every creature conceived a roh from the Almighty? What do we think, that WE do it? We should read carefully the words of the Qur'an on conception. When we need to think that He made a miracle for Maryam to conceive, we really, really, do not believe so much in Him with respecto to anything else. We ourselves are a miracle.
Salaam
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I found Quranic evidence which proofs that the history of Islam need to be revamp hmm. I am not sure about this and that if anyone can shed some lights !
High possibility that Prophet Muhammad, was born before the 4th Century of the Common Era and the Holy Quran was sent down in the 4th Century in order to counter the distortion of the 1st Book of ALLAH, which comprises of the Torah and Injeel by the Roman Christians as confirmed by the Quranic verse below
Peace Hizbullah,
If you are comfortable using historical references a good question would be "who was emperor of Rome during
Muhammad's lifetime" since Rome and other nations had many references to the Roman empire. You could also
compare other rulers, wars that were fought, or who received letters from Muhammad etc.,.God bless
peace
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If you are comfortable using historical references a good question would be "who was emperor of Rome during Muhammad's lifetime" since Rome and other nations had many references to the Roman Empire. You could also compare other rulers, wars that were fought, or who received letters from Muhammad etc.,.
Peace hawk99r
Yes, it is a good question. However, the Quran never mentioned the names of the Emperors of the Roman Empire nor any exchange of letters between the leaders. But the Quran possibly recorded down the speech of these people or events relating to war. For example the Quran mentioned about the Romans in Chapter 30.
- Alif Lam Mim. 2. Victorious the Romans. 3. In the LOW LAND, and they, after their victory, will be defeated. 4. In a few years. The decision of the matter, before and after is only with ALLAH. And on that day, the believers will rejoice. 5. With the help of ALLAH. He helps whom He wills, and HE is the All-Mighty, the Most Merciful. 6. A promise from ALLAH, and ALLAH fails not in HIS promise, but most men know not.
The above military campaign is also recorded in collaboration with Quran 0841 ? 42
.....if you have believed in Allah and in that which We sent down to Our Servant on the Day of Criterion - the day when the two armies met. And Allah , over all things, is competent.
When you were on the near side of the enemy, and they were on the farther side of the enemy, and the caravan was LOWER than you. If you had made an appointment, you would have missed the appointment. But so that Allah might accomplish a matter already destined - that those who perished would perish upon evidence and those who lived would live upon evidence; and indeed, Allah is Hearing and Knowing.
The above military campaign carried out by the Prophet is also recorded in the Quran 03152 to 155.
Historical evidence also proofs that the Roman empire was in a deteriorate position in the 4th Century, especially in the western part of the Empire where the Germanic tribes revolted against the Romans. Another Roman enemy was Attila the Hun, was the ruler of the Huns from 434 until his death in 453. He was leader of the Hunnic Empire , which stretched from the Ural River to the Rhine River and from the Danube River to the Baltic Sea .During his reign he was one of the most feared enemies of the Western and Eastern Roman Empires. He crossed the Danube twice and plundered the Balkans , but was unable to take Constantinople . His unsuccessful campaign in Persia was followed in 441 by an invasion of the Eastern Roman Empire, the success of which emboldened Attila to invade the West . He also attempted to conquer Roman Gaul (modern France), crossing the Rhine in 451 and marching as far as Aurelianum (Orl?ans ) before being defeated at the Battle of the Catalaunian Plains.
Peace
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In fact the Qur'an does not use any of those words for Maryam, or for anybody else, nor there is a single word that Maryam uses to say that she is chaste. It uses a negative, "I am not baghiya" (translated as "unchaste". The virgin part up to that point she makes it clear saying that "no basharhas touched me".
The word BAGHIYA, means promiscuous woman. So Maryam said "Nor am I a promiscuous woman". This proofs that she was not a "loose woman" as per your post 52
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Peace Hizbullah,
Historical evidence also proofs that the Roman empire was in a deteriorate position in the 4th Century, especially in the western part of the Empire where the Germanic tribes revolted against the Romans. Another Roman enemy was Attila the Hun, was the ruler of the Huns from 434 until his death in 453. He was leader of the Hunnic Empire , which stretched from the Ural River to the Rhine River and from the Danube River to the Baltic Sea .During his reign he was one of the most feared enemies of the Western and Eastern Roman Empires. He crossed the Danube twice and plundered the Balkans , but was unable to take Constantinople . His unsuccessful campaign in Persia was followed in 441 by an invasion of the Eastern Roman Empire, the success of which emboldened Attila to invade the West . He also attempted to conquer Roman Gaul (modern France), crossing the Rhine in 451 and marching as far as Aurelianum (Orl?ans ) before being defeated at the Battle of the Catalaunian Plains.
Here you allow historical evidence.
However, the Quran never mentioned the names of the Emperors of the Roman Empire nor any exchange of letters between the leaders.
Here you disallow historical evidence.
God bless
peace
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Peace hawk99r
Yes, it is a good question. However, the Quran never mentioned the names of the Emperors of the Roman Empire nor any exchange of letters between the leaders. But the Quran possibly recorded down the speech of these people or events relating to war. For example the Quran mentioned about the Romans in Chapter 30.
- Alif Lam Mim. 2. Victorious the Romans. 3. In the LOW LAND, and they, after their victory, will be defeated. 4. In a few years. The decision of the matter, before and after is only with ALLAH. And on that day, the believers will rejoice. 5. With the help of ALLAH. He helps whom He wills, and HE is the All-Mighty, the Most Merciful. 6. A promise from ALLAH, and ALLAH fails not in HIS promise, but most men know not.
The above military campaign is also recorded in collaboration with Quran 0841 ? 42
.....if you have believed in Allah and in that which We sent down to Our Servant on the Day of Criterion - the day when the two armies met. And Allah , over all things, is competent.
When you were on the near side of the enemy, and they were on the farther side of the enemy, and the caravan was LOWER than you. If you had made an appointment, you would have missed the appointment. But so that Allah might accomplish a matter already destined - that those who perished would perish upon evidence and those who lived would live upon evidence; and indeed, Allah is Hearing and Knowing.
The above military campaign carried out by the Prophet is also recorded in the Quran 03152 to 155.
Historical evidence also proofs that the Roman empire was in a deteriorate position in the 4th Century, especially in the western part of the Empire where the Germanic tribes revolted against the Romans. Another Roman enemy was Attila the Hun, was the ruler of the Huns from 434 until his death in 453. He was leader of the Hunnic Empire , which stretched from the Ural River to the Rhine River and from the Danube River to the Baltic Sea .During his reign he was one of the most feared enemies of the Western and Eastern Roman Empires. He crossed the Danube twice and plundered the Balkans , but was unable to take Constantinople . His unsuccessful campaign in Persia was followed in 441 by an invasion of the Eastern Roman Empire, the success of which emboldened Attila to invade the West . He also attempted to conquer Roman Gaul (modern France), crossing the Rhine in 451 and marching as far as Aurelianum (Orl?ans ) before being defeated at the Battle of the Catalaunian Plains.
Peace
Salaam,
Red If you could read Arabic instead of depending on English you could know that both Arabic words are different.
As per your translation above, the Arabic words in the aayaat are
For 'low land' .
For 'lower' .May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
...Historical evidence from the earliest Christian version of this story comes from the Syrian bishop, Jacob of Sarugh (c. 450-521), in the 6th-century.
Another significant Quranic proof ?
AQ 1825 - And they remained in their cave for three hundred years and exceeded by nine
Historical evidence shows that the persecution of the so called Christians in the Roman Empire occurred over a period of about three centuries until the 313 Edict of Milan issued by Emperors Constantine and Licinius. This was the beginning of the era of official Christianity. A new religion was born. The Sleepers of the Cave slept in the year 13 and woke up 300 years later, in the year 313. 313 CE was the period where the persecutions to the believers stop. ALLAH THE EXALTED extended the lives of the Sleepers to another 9 years. They died in year 322. The 1st Nicene Creed was in the year 325.
Peace -
conjecture
1825 and remained they in cave theirs three hundred seasons and add they nine ofanswer
1826 say the god of knowledge in what remained they for him unseen the heavens and the earth sees in it and hears not for them from besides him from guardian and not associate/shares in commands his anyone ofThe Chronicle of James of Edessa
http//www.tertullian.org/fathers/james_of_edessa_chronicle_02_canon.htmand Mohammed goes down for purposes of trade to the country of Palestine, Arabia, Phoenicia and Tyre.
There was an eclipse of the sun.
Eclipse Data, for the 613 July 23 solar eclipse.
http//eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEsearch/SEsearchmap.php?Ecl=06010310The Persians carried off captives from the whole of the land of the Romans as far as Bithynia and Asia and as far as the sea of Pontus and devastated it.
Battle of Antioch (613 CE) Persians defeat Byzantines/Romans
Battle of Issus (622 CE) Byzantines/Romans defeat PersiansThe kingdom of the Arabs, whom we call Saracens (1), began when Heraclius, Emperor of the Romans, had reached (2) his 11th year, and Khosrau, King of the Persians, his 31st year.
301 alif-lam-meem
302 overpowered/defeated the Romans
303 in lowest the earth and they from after overpower/defeat theirs are overpowering/victorious
304 in several (i.e. 3-9) seasons to god the directive from before and from after and that day rejoice the believing -
Peace Hizbullah,
Here you allow historical evidence.
Here you disallow historical evidence.
God bless
peace
Peace hawk99
The Quran is the verification of all past truths. The so called Old and New Testament are a mixture of truths and falsehoods whose content is measured in relation to the Quran. That goes for history of this world. If these finds verification in the Quran then it is declared true. However if it is negated by the Quran then it is surely false. It is not for me to allow or disallow
Peace
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Salaam,
Red If you could read Arabic instead of depending on English you could know that both Arabic words are different.
As per your translation above, the Arabic words in the aayaat are
For 'low land' .
For 'lower' .The words are different but they have the same meaning.
Peace