The NONSENSE people make about Allah

muslims

Facts

God has taught me bla bla bla, therefore I am bla bla bla.
God has guided me bla bla bla, therefore I am bla bla bla.
God has inspired me bla bla bla, therefore I am bla bla bla.

and any other similar statements

The issue

Can anyone prove or be certain that God taught, guided, and inspired them etc, or God is leading them astray ?

and when God clearly said

Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this narrative
We will entice them
from where they do not perceive
And I will lead them on
for My planning is formidable
6844-45

As for those who deny Our revelations
We will entice them
from where they do not know
7.182

And from the people are those who say

"We believe in God and in the Last Day,"

but they are not believers

They seek to deceive God and those who believe
but they only deceive themselves
without noticing
2.8-9

If no one can prove such claims , is it nonsense to declare it to the public ?

and what is the purpose of such claims ?

JavaLatte

Okay.... http//3.bp.blogspot.com/-wn2wPLAukW8/U1vy7Ol5aEI/AAAAAAAAGq0/f7C6-otIDY0/s1600/squinting-emoticon.png

Can we all here trying to be calm and peaceful...?

Perhaps we should focus more on our similarities,

trying to get along well, and seeking harmony between brethren.

group

Just a suggestion.

Peace.

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

It is easy, God has taught to judge with what The Master sent down to every prophet and the proof of that is to follow what is decreed in the recitation as it contains a summary of it all, like a recap.

And faith you show by the way you live and act and on your judgment. If you follow what is decreed such as being nice, kind, humble and harmonious, then you are simply guided and you do not associate anyone or anything with God.

As God simply puts it "anyone who has faith and does good has nothing to fear nor will they grieve".

Got any problem with that?

Man_of_Faith

Peace Javalatte,

It is a very good idea actually. It is too much stiffness around here.

God bless you

muslims

Can we all here trying to be calm and peaceful...?

I believe this kind of discussion is good because it teaches us to differentiate the truth and falsehood (the nonsense),

especially for those who live in countries where there are many Mullah and people claimed they are the Messenger of Allah. . .

or even claiming that they are God, the Imam Mahdi, Jesus or a wife of Gabriel etc!

Those Mullahs are prone to make such claims and using the fallacy of appeal to authority. . . especially in Muslim majority countries.

mmkhan

Following quote is from this thread.

Read from the start and find out yourself what relevant point did you bring to this thread ?

Or merely resorting to ad hominem, irrelevant issues and your nonsense ?

But I guess you are lucky, because you can be off topic, but I cannot. This is the forum rules.

Therefore, you can prove your point in this thread.

To bad, do you also wish to chop off my head ? laugh

So why are you so afraid to know the truth about yourself? hmm
We all will know if we are wrong about you and others may also know about you.
Most importantly you will know the truth about yourself, as you are dreaming that you are always right and others are always wrong. This thing will be clear once and for all, inshaAllah. You may change your behavior after you know yourself.

muslims

you are dreaming that you are always right and others are always wrong.

Firstly, you are being off topic. fftopic

Secondly, I gave reasons and support for all my contentions, and you cannot. So, you are just jealous and childish.

You will cry, bang your head, pull out your hair and blame people when you cannot get what you want, not much difference from your childhood, really.

It is just in different forms, but it is the same issue. . . you want that "chocolate", even if your parents cannot afford them.

Grow up and take responsibility for your contentions, otherwise don't make one!

Jafar

Facts

God has taught me bla bla bla, therefore I am bla bla bla.
God has guided me bla bla bla, therefore I am bla bla bla.
God has inspired me bla bla bla, therefore I am bla bla bla.

and any other similar statements

The issue

Can anyone prove or be certain that God taught, guided, and inspired them etc, or God is leading them astray ?

This is the reason why I've stopped or at least restrained myself from quoting.
In a sense that to prove X is true, Y also said X .
Where Y can be a deity, a mullah / authority or a relic such as holy book.
I called such attitude as 'hiding behind something' to support an opinion.

If X is true, then I believe X will survive any test that's being thrown at it.

Having said that, I'm fully aware that not everyone has the same attitude as me.

Thus I choose to ignore those who attack my opinion of X through arguments of because Y said it is true or isn't true.
I appreciate those who really stand by his/her own opinion, even when his/her opinion disprove of X.
Because that was the objective of discussion or debate.
To test the hypothesis of X

My 'enemy' on a debate is my friend on thinking and contemplation.

Thus the prove that he or she is guided or misguided on the topic of X. (and only on the topic of X)
Is by testing whether his/her opinion on X is true or false.

Salam / Peace

muslims

This is the reason why I've stopped or at least restrained myself from quoting.

I believe to claim that we are absolutely right is inappropriate, but to quote the word of Allah is okay because the objective is . .

To test the hypothesis of X

Where, X is the words of Allah (ie. human interpretation).

When Allah commands us to use our mind, God is asking us to test or disprove His words , every single words in the Quran . .

and this is the true essence of belief, ie. we have tested the words of Allah and it is not "blind faith", it is not conjecture. .

. . .

Thus the prove that he or she is guided or misguided on the topic of X. (and only on the topic of X)
Is by testing whether his/her opinion on X is true or false.

bravo

and during the process of testing the truth of any statement,
there will be some "cross-examination confrontation", using the true methodology and avoiding the fallacy . .
many people might not understand the process and blindly believe that it is inappropriate.

Critical thinking is an Islamic obligation, just as Allah ordered us to perform salat, zakat, fasting etc. and . . without critical thinking, there is no Islam.

"Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason" (8.22)

Existential1

If no one can prove such claims , is it nonsense to declare it to the public ?

and what is the purpose of such claims ?

Peace everyone,

If everything shared verbally needed to be 100% fact-checked before saying anything, humans would be a lot less interactive. I believe the purpose of such claims are that people wish to either build a sense of community around their feeling, or they want to embellish themselves.

Either way, we (the general public) choose how much weight we want to give anyone who makes such statements. On an individual level, we can ignore them and proceed about our business (my usual strategy), or we can pay close attention and weigh their statements on their merits (which would take a tremendous amount of time).

Let us be kind to those who profess their connection to God, however sincere they may or may not be. For how we treat them will be judged.

peace

muslims

It is true on the level of "building a community", but it is not true on the level of determining the truth and finding the straight path. . .and which is, related to the main objective of this forum, "Discover True Islam"

If you are one of those people, then open your eyes, put on your thinking cap, and welcome to an open examination of the system of Submission/Islam which very few know about...;

Mission Statement

To provide accurate information/education regarding the message of the Qur'an. To promote the social, economic, and spiritual system as contained within the pages of the Quran. To assist in the networking of individuals and organizations dedicated to the service of monotheism.

We stand for social and legal justice. (Quran 45 (12.5%)

We stand for gender and race equality. (Quran 4913) (12.5%)

We stand for free thought and individualism. (Quran 680) (12.5%)

We stand for competition in righteousness and morality. (Quran 1690) (12.5%)

We stand for open debate and the providing of evidence. (Quran 1736) (12.5%)

We stand for freedom of religion, and freedom of expression. (Quran 1099) (12.5%)

We stand for honesty, kindness, and deterring from wrongdoing. (Quran 3110) (12.5%)

We stand for change through mutual consultation and representation. (Quran 423 (12.5%)

main page

p.s. however I got banned and my thread got locked whenever I did the above. laugh

Existential1

It is true on the level of "building a community", but it is not true on the level of determining the truth and finding the straight path. . .and which is, related to the main objective of this forum, "Discover True Islam"

p.s. however I got banned and my thread got locked whenever I did the above. laugh

From your original post, I assumed you were talking about in the general public. As for on this website, I would assume everyone is willing/able to speak freely and engage in thought-provoking critical discourse.

muslims

As for on this website, I would assume everyone is willing/able to speak freely and engage in thought-provoking critical discourse.

Then, they have to "be opened for cross-examination" as the methodology for determining the truth in any statement made by them. . . .

Cross-examined

cross-ex?am?ine (kr?sg-zmn, krs-)
v. cross-ex?am?ined, cross-ex?am?in?ing, cross-ex?am?ines
v.tr.

To question (a person) closely, especially with regard to answers or information given previously.
Law To question (a witness already examined by the opposing side).
v.intr.
To question a person closely.

cross-ex?ami?nation n.
cross-ex?amin?er n.

cross-examina`tion
n.

the act of cross-examining The attorney's cross-examination was particularly aggressive.
the state of being cross-examined The witness collapsed under cross-examination.

It is "discovery". . through "cross-examination" and "dialogue", and not make many become the audience to a preacher convinced of his wisdom, the audience someone on a pulpit.

99760 registered members.

Active members ?

10 members ?

That is my poll. Maybe most here do not much like people behind a pulpit, who are speaking "nonsense", "immune from cross-examination" and very "closed minded". Those who are using fallacy, ad hominem, boycott and do a poll against those who contested their contentions.

Jafar

I believe to claim that we are absolutely right is inappropriate, but to quote the word of Allah is okay because the objective is . .

It's ok to quote from anything..
What's not ok is trying to hide behind it.

It's like
X is true because my dad said X is true, if you don't believe X is true, I'll tell my dad and my dad will come to you and put you to hell..

Where 'dad' can be anything from holy relics, mullah/imams to deities .
The discussion will then turned into an arena of cursing..

there will be some "cross-examination confrontation", using the true methodology and avoiding the fallacy . .
many people might not understand the process and blindly believe that it is inappropriate.

"Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason" (8.22)

Many people here came from a culture where 'dogmatic idea' is a 'common and acceptable thing'.
Specifically, Judaism and Pseudo-Judaism culture / religion / tradition (including Islam, Christianity etc..)

When the tradition of Christianity is continuously improving (with their 'medieval dark ages' as the starting benchmark)
The tradition of Islam is continuously degrading (with their 'medieval golden age' as the starting benchmark)

Cross examination, debate, logical reasoning is a common place within 700-1000 AD Baghdad.

"If the people of this religion are asked about the proof for the soundness of their religion, they flare up, get angry and spill the blood of whoever confronts them with this question. They forbid rational speculation, and strive to kill their adversaries. This is why truth became thoroughly silenced and concealed"
-- Razi 854 ? 925

Even on something as I believe people in this forum living in the so-called "modern era" would (still) deemed as "heretical idea".

"You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say "Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one." Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. ... By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say "Produce something like it"?"
-- Razi 854 ? 925

And nobody in 854-925 AD Baghdad stoned or murdered Razi nor he ever being apprehended, imprisoned or silenced, during his lifetime.

Salam / Peace

muslims

if you don't believe X is true, I'll tell my dad and my dad will come to you and put you to hell..

rotfl

Crow

In my opinion ~

If someone makes the claim

God has guided me...
God has taught me...
God has inspired me to...

That's all well and good, and mash'Allah for his or her recognition of God's hand in our lives, but then that person has to be prepared to demonstrate that his guidance and newly-found knowledge and the actions he has been inspired to do are all consistent with the teachings of the Qur'an. If they cannot pass that simple test, then where exactly are these impulses originating? This isn't to say that one must justify every single action, but if they are claiming any of these they are casting themselves in a completely different light.

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

Good advice, Crow.

God bless you

muslims

That's all well and good, and mash'Allah for his or her recognition of God's hand in our lives, but then that person has to be prepared to demonstrate that his guidance and newly-found knowledge and the actions he has been inspired to do are all consistent with the teachings of the Qur'an. If they cannot pass that simple test, then where exactly are these impulses originating? This isn't to say that one must justify every single action, but if they are claiming any of these they are casting themselves in a completely different light.

Therefore, they will first need to prove that they do not deny Allah prohibitions . . .

As for those who deny Our revelations

This is what matter. . . obedience or disobedience?

and for example, they "do not ask question" beyond what is allowed from the Quran . . .

O you who have believed, do not ask about things which, if they are shown to you, will distress you. But if you ask about them while the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be shown to you. Allah has pardoned that which is past; and Allah is Forgiving and Forbearing. 5.101

once they asked questions beyond what is allowed from the Quran . .
we can conclude that they are the disbelievers (not a True Believer)

None can dispute about the ayatiAllahi but the Unbelievers.

and one could say that it is simple issue, but what is the effect ?

Who is Muhammad?

I believe he is the most righteous person ever lived . . . and a True Believer

And indeed, you (Muhammad)
are of a great moral character
(684)

But and even if he believe in Allah . . .

. . . recite shahada perfectfully
. . . knows and speaks well in arabic
. . . perform salah
. . . pray in mosque
. . . pray every night to Allah
. . . perform hajj
. . . fasting for his entire life
. . . dzikr.. and never say bad things about people
. . . pay zakat and sadaqah all his property in the cause of Allah
. . . go to jihad and sacrifice himself to Allah
. . . study carefully all the revelations...
. . . and... bla... bla... bla...
. . . you name it, as one of the most righteous person ever lived...

He will not be a Muslim if disobey one "simple prohibition" not to eat that on which Allah's name has not been mentioned

And DO NOT eat

of that on which Allah's name has not been mentioned
and that is most surely a transgression
and most surely the Shaitans suggest to their friends
that they should contend with you

and if you obey them

you (Muhammad) shall most surely be polytheists <- ie. Muhammad is not a Muslim
(6121)

Because Allah says "DO NOT" ! !

and it doesn't matter small or big prohibitions...

He might be the best Believer, but if he "I'QTIQAD" (creed) to disobey Allah... he will not be a Muslim...

Simple issue, but it is about disobedience. .

So as Adam, simple issue, don't eat from that tree. . . but Adam disobey and eat from that tree.

It is a simple issue, but it is disobedience. . .since Adam, to Muhammad and still the same rule. . .

Therefore, if they disobey the "do not" prohibitions, we can conclude that they are the deniers
because they know about the prohibitions , it is their iktikad, and they intentionally disobey Allah. . .

Therefore, they are the deniers

But then, what is the rule about the deniers ?

Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this narrative
We will entice them
from where they do not perceive
And I will lead them on
for My planning is formidable
6844-45

As for those who deny Our revelations
We will entice them
from where they do not know
7.182

Yes, Allah said "My planning is formidable", no one will know. . .

Therefore, it is back to the main issue. . . ie.

The issue

Can anyone prove or be certain that God taught, guided, and inspired them etc, or God is leading them astray ?

I believe if they cannot prove, then don't declare it in public. . .

If no one can prove such claims , is it nonsense to declare it to the public ?

and what is the purpose of such claims ?

ie. don't speak nonsense. . . no one know whether God is guiding or leading them astray.

use reasoning and critical thinking. . . rational thinking, not irrational thinking.

and from my experience, generally, only hypocrites used such claims . . .
to prove to the public and easily gain support from their audience , the fallacy of appeal to authority.

These are my views.

Zulf

Nice. I tend to agree.

We should practice to speak in a humble but confident way, without feeling that we absolutely have to win the argument, even when we believe we are right. Bad/childish manners, even when being right, may very well turn people away, and therefore have the opposite effect to the desired one, to inform or enlighten people. People of tend to forget this and start labeling, judging and dooming others as being wrong, mistaken, confused, sinister, lost and misguided. I've seen this an uncountable amount of times on this forum over the years. Yet we all (or most I assume) profess to seek the truth and be good. We better keep a good check on ourselves.

Peace and best regards
sun

Crow

We should practice to speak in a humble but confident way, without feeling that we absolutely have to win the argument, even when we believe we are right. Bad/childish manners, even when being right, may very well turn people away, and therefore have the opposite effect to the desired one, to inform or enlighten people. People of tend to forget this and start labeling, judging and dooming others as being wrong, mistaken, confused, sinister, lost and misguided. I've seen this an uncountable amount of times on this forum over the years. Yet we all (or most I assume) profess to seek the truth and be good. We better keep a good check on ourselves.

Very true- consider yourself (with all due respect) as a reflection Muhammad relating the Qur'an; he was the Messenger, not the policeman nor the judge and jury. Your responsibility is to give a truthful representation of Muslim belief, and leave it to the receiver to decide for him or herself if they will accept it- nothing more. If they have questions, surely answer them truthfully and as completely as you are able, but arguing and browbeating others in order to win an argument or prove a point is almost always counterproductive. If they choose to follow our path, that's wonderful- but if they don't, remember we are commanded to not condemn them or call them names for fear they may speak ill of God and his Word in retaliation.

Peace ~