Free Will / Free Choice... Is the Creator all knowledgeable?
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Jafar bravo handshake
I am becoming a big fan of yours )
We are all part of the Infinite Creator. We are all one. The separateness is just a temporary illusion in our 3rd density state of existence, as the various physical manifestations of the same infinite energy.
The trillions of cells in Jafar's body cannot each claim to be Jafar, but the collection of the trillions of cells can claim to be Jafar. When Jafar eats, the trillions of cells are absorbing nutrients through the membranes and they can say "We" ate, and Jafar can say "I" ate.
Events happening at the micro quantum level are random just like free will but at the macro level it only results in a certain definite event. At the cellular level certain amino acid molecules might be picked at random (free will) to construct a protein and other amino acid molecules might be picked at random (free will) to be metabolized, but the end result is life.
All humans (micro parts of the One) might make different micro decisions using their free will but the macro end result in the long run over millions of years will always be ascension and evolution towards merging back with the One and disappearance of the illusion of separateness. The paths taken using free will might be different, some much longer than others, and some much shorter and faster, but they will all result in a greater diversity of experience and lead to the same destination eventually.
Thus the Infinite Creator experiences itself. The experience is greater and more diverse and the evolution is faster with presence of polarity of good and bad and the presence of free will, than with the absence of free will and thereby existence of good only.
Everyone think and meditate about this.
All praise, glory and thanks belong to the One Infinite Creator.
Peace
Peace,
Please correct me if I am wrong.
The problems I see from your post above specially the highlighted part are mentioned below.- Do our own parts have a free will and can they go against our us? If yes,
- How can we punish our own parts when they go against our will? But Allah punishes us when we go against His will. So,
- How can we be a part of Allah? Why Allah punishes His own parts?
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
Lol, I know God knows what has been predestined, I know God knows what will happen as a result of taking a path. I don't think God knows which path we will take but if God works in real-time (which I expect it does) then every move we make God plans and will be prepared for the next move we take because God knows all moves... If that makes sense. Either way, the main thing as you said isn't to be all like 'oh I'll let God decide my fate" cos it defeats the point in my opinion. You choose the path which will result in a different outcome than another path (or it could result in the same outcome). Either way God knows the outcomes, we don't so we couldn't say if it would be different or not anyway ).
(PS sorry for the late response, I haven't had a chance to rest for a second except now)
peace
Peace,
Sorry I disagree with both the highlighted parts above.
Red If Allah doesn't know which path we will take then how about 287?
287
And We inspired to the mother of Musa, "Suckle him; but when you fear for him, cast him into the river and do not fear and do not grieve. Indeed, We will return him to you and will make him of the messengers."
Allah surely knows that Musa is going to be good person, and reaches the high positions, so said, we will make him of the messengers.
Blue And if every move we make is according to Allah's plan, then there is no reason to punish us.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
Is God all knowledgeable? Yes. But I think Free will of human is not the yardstick to define God's knowledge, since our Free will in no way going to affect the system. Whatever happened is happened for Good and as per his will. Our Free will do affect our state of mind and responsible for hell state or the ultimate heaven.
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Peace,
Sorry I disagree with both the highlighted parts above.
Red If Allah doesn't know which path we will take then how about 287?
287
And We inspired to the mother of Musa, "Suckle him; but when you fear for him, cast him into the river and do not fear and do not grieve. Indeed, We will return him to you and will make him of the messengers."
Allah surely knows that Musa is going to be good person, and reaches the high positions, so said, we will make him of the messengers.
Blue And if every move we make is according to Allah's plan, then there is no reason to punish us.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhanPeace mmkhan,
If God knows WHICH path we will take, let's say it does, then why do you believe the "we" (whoever you think it is) in the verses i quoted previously asked Moses that question? Why does the "we" have to ask any questions?
peace
- truthseeker & Jafar, awesome speeches man peace
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Tehre is such a thing as socratic questions, and in fact the Qur'an asks a lot in general. It is an invitation to ask ourselves, to put those questions us to ourselves. Not only the Qur'an, people do it all the time, ask questions to make the other think. It is about the most didactic method there is.
Salaam
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Jafar bravo handshake
I am becoming a big fan of yours )
Thank you..
Although feel free to attack me as well when you find it either weak or illogical.. )The trillions of cells in Jafar's body cannot each claim to be Jafar, but the collection of the trillions of cells can claim to be Jafar. When Jafar eats, the trillions of cells are absorbing nutrients through the membranes and they can say "We" ate, and Jafar can say "I" ate.
In this universe, something consist of something smaller and the same something is a part of something bigger.
At the cellular level certain amino acid molecules might be picked at random (free will) to construct a protein and other amino acid molecules might be picked at random (free will) to be metabolized, but the end result is life.
Exactly, 'free will' existence is dependent on the eye of the beholder.
The Virus might think it has a free will, but we can tell what it's 'free will' shall be, Virus, this is your next move; you'll try to infect the cell next to you. -
- Do our own parts have a free will and can they go against our us? If yes,
- How can we punish our own parts when they go against our will?
Yes, each viruses, bacteria, protozoa and cells have their own 'free will'.
And some of 'us' are so ignorant of not even knowing the existence of such being.
Thus 'us' in this case is incomparable to the "Infinite One".But Allah punishes us when we go against His will.
- How can we be a part of Allah? Why Allah punishes His own parts?
"Punish" or "Reward" is a subjective word, truly dependent on the eye of the beholder.
There are consequences / implication of every action, and all are governed by an automatically enforced law.
And nothing can go against "God's Will" although one can go against "God's recommendation to attain certain something".
If you want X then you need to be/do Y..Thus there's no 'punishment' or 'reward' just 'consequences' and 'implication'.
For example
"Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth" (Matt 55)
Implication- Those who are not meek shall become extinct from earth.
- If you want to inherit the earth, be meek.
The Meek are those who are gentle, humble, and unassuming, they're patient in the face of every affront.
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Exactly, 'free will' existence is dependent on the eye of the beholder.
The Virus might think it has a free will, but we can tell what it's 'free will' shall be, Virus, this is your next move; you'll try to infect the cell next to you.Salamun Alaikum.
Excellent analogy from brother Jafar! bravo
Regards,
Arman -
Yes, each viruses, bacteria, protozoa and cells have their own 'free will'.
And some of 'us' are so ignorant of not even knowing the existence of such being.
Thus 'us' in this case is incomparable to the "Infinite One"."Punish" or "Reward" is a subjective word, truly dependent on the eye of the beholder.
There are consequences / implication of every action, and all are governed by an automatically enforced law.
And nothing can go against "God's Will" although one can go against "God's recommendation to attain certain something".
If you want X then you need to be/do Y..Thus there's no 'punishment' or 'reward' just 'consequences' and 'implication'.
For example
"Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth" (Matt 55)
Implication- Those who are not meek shall become extinct from earth.
- If you want to inherit the earth, be meek.
The Meek are those who are gentle, humble, and unassuming, they're patient in the face of every affront.
Yes, a nice quote, Add to The Meek, such people who are less egoistic, less idolizing so they learn things easily, adapt well and survive well.
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Peace to all,
such a fascinating thread and so mind stimulating!! I have learned a lot from you all and I share views of many of you, now let me add my few cents to this beautiful discussion about free will versus predestined fate decided by Allah.
Right now I agree with most of you that God knows choices and outcomes of all the choices we can make and acts accordingly. God knows the past and present. How about the future?
Let's start from the beginning, the creation of Iblees and Adam.I believe that God created everything with the good and bad predispositions and gave the choice to everyone. Angels submitted to will of God, but I really believe that God was well aware of consequences when he created Iblees with his arrogant predisposition, although it was made evident only later, when he was put to test. The test was to clarify what predisposition will win in him, good or bad one. Once the test was done, God knew what path he was going to follow. this is why Iblees is called 'rejected one'.
Same with human beings. Although they have good and bad predispositions, on the macro level, it might seem that people are following Iblees more than God. Btw, I have read somewhere on this forum (sorry for lack of references) that in the oldest parts of Torah there was no mention of Hell at all!! Some people were claiming there that this is a proof that Quran is false but now something came to me... Perhaps, God in fact sent the very first prophets on earth without mentioning hell as it was still 'in making' God had to test the first people, and then later people to see that in fact, most of them will follow Iblees, and therefore, they creation of Hell is a necessity?
On the individual level though, the situation gets more interesting. God gave everyone certain positive fitra and certain weaknesses or negative predispositions, knowing that to what extent the positive will interact with the negative will have huge impact on his/her destiny, although it is not set in stone.
I believe that, in fact, God gives us the free will to choose from the paths he shows us. However, because He knows very well his creation, He sets up the 'tolerance limits' for repentance for sth and gives us the opportunity to come back to our good fitra. Once the 'point of no return' has been breached, he will write off the person to the place of their destiny hell. Such 'point of no return' is final and therefore very high.The story of Musa (and Phiraun) holds another lesson to all of us. Sorry for not being able to cite the verses but I remember that many verses said that Pharaon was destined to Hell, or that he was made 'blind'. So how about his free will, how about his 'fitra', does it mean that God just created him that cruel to be an example for others? No, this is not the case (Allah knows best).
It means that Pharaon was born, as everyone, with the fitra but lost it along the way, although God knew he was a bad person, He gave him last chance to accept request of Moses. That was the point of no return, which God knew that he would cross anyway because of his blindness. Pharaon was given last chance and failed, this is why he was predestined to hell.It seems to me that, apart from the Beautiful Names of God, mentioned in Quraan, God is also The Best Statistitian. Despite the fact he knows statistically speaking what outcomes will be prevalent, He gives everyone the benefit of doubt (or benefit of test), before predestining anything to us, amazing, isn't it?
After all, there is a reason why there will be a day of Judgement, when everyone will be judged based on their life at the earth. If God knew where everyone will end up, there wouldn't be need for all that earthly 'circus' and judging at the end, right?
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such a fascinating thread and so mind stimulating!! I have learned a lot from you all and I share views of many of you, now let me add my few cents to this beautiful discussion about free will versus predestined fate decided by Allah.
Right now I agree with most of you that God knows choices and outcomes of all the choices we can make and acts accordingly. God knows the past and present. How about the future?Free Will is not at odd with Predestination.
Free Will is valid if you're using the perspective of the 'being' who are contained in a space and time.
Predestination is valid if you're using the perspective of the "Infinite".
Given the "Infinite One" has no limit on space and time. or in other words without limitation on time there is no difference between past, present and future.The similitude is like watching a movie on a DVD, given you have full control on time , you can rewind, forward or play as you wish.
The storyline of the movie will stay the same.."All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players they have their exits and their entrances"
- W Shakespeare
Let's start from the beginning, the creation of Iblees and Adam.I believe that God created everything with the good and bad predispositions and gave the choice to everyone. Angels submitted to will of God, but I really believe that God was well aware of consequences when he created Iblees with his arrogant predisposition, although it was made evident only later, when he was put to test. The test was to clarify what predisposition will win in him, good or bad one. Once the test was done, God knew what path he was going to follow. this is why Iblees is called 'rejected one'.
Evil does have it's own purpose, a role to play in this 'drama'.
Without evil there will be no good..
Without darkness there will be no light..
Without falsehood there will be no truth..
Otherwise how can we tell the difference?So learn evil, so you might know good..
Learn falsehood so you might know truth..
Experience darkness so you can recognize light..When the world knows beauty as beauty, ugliness arises
When it knows good as good, evil arises
Thus being and non-being produce each other
Difficult and easy bring about each other
-- Lao TsePerhaps, God in fact sent the very first prophets on earth without mentioning hell as it was still 'in making' God had to test the first people, and then later people to see that in fact, most of them will follow Iblees, and therefore, they creation of Hell is a necessity?
The conception of Hell / Gehena in human belief seems to evolve over time..
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HellIt seems to me that, apart from the Beautiful Names of God, mentioned in Quraan, God is also The Best Statistitian. Despite the fact he knows statistically speaking what outcomes will be prevalent, He gives everyone the benefit of doubt (or benefit of test), before predestining anything to us, amazing, isn't it?
No probability, everything is a certainty.. for God..
After all, there is a reason why there will be a day of Judgement, when everyone will be judged based on their life at the earth. If God knew where everyone will end up, there wouldn't be need for all that earthly 'circus' and judging at the end, right?
God know the past, present and future, all of it.
There's no 'unknown' for God.Using the same line of thinking I can also say
"If everything shall be destroyed in the end, why bother with creating in the first place"?
Which is valid.... from human perspective..The answer to the above question is actually "So everything can be created again".
Without destruction there will be no creation, without creation there will be no destruction.
The cycle of creation and destruction..Human need an 'objective', a goal to achieve, an 'end' to achieve.
Doing something without a clear goal / objective is 'useless' or doesn't make any sense from human perspective..
The thing is God is not human, It doesn't think like human."My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says YHVH And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts higher than your thoughts."
(Book of Isaiah 55)Salam / Peace
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Regarding the free will of viruses and that kind of thing, and also the cells to the smallest thing, I think it is a fact and it is so much a fact that it is at the root of evolution. According to the "latest" material I have read, at the quantum level, cells do choose. So, indeed, "free will" is the motor of material existence.
That, also, is not in contradiction with God reigning supreme and being the doer of everything, also of free will. That is in the pact established betweeen Him and human kind. It is our condition of existence and the factor that makes possible our return to Him. Were there no free will we would not move. That pact as we see, reaches even the smallest thing thinkable, but of course, as human we "are conscious" of the pact, of our free will. Are viruses also conscious? How would we know such a thing? Are our dog friends conscious? May be to some degree. I do not know.
Salaam
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Salamun Alaikum.
Brother Jafar and Huruf have explained the consistency between free will and predestination quite vividly. I?d add my 2 cents here. I see the following reasons why human mind is seemingly unwilling to accept that everything is predestined
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We lack the ability to think outside the reference of time. We tend to think and judge everyone based on reference of time. We know that God exists beyond the limits of time and space, but human mind does not have the ability to internalize the full implication of it. In the story of Moses and the wise man in Sura Al-Kahf, we see even someone as wise as Prophet Moses was struggling to cope with the idea that someone with the knowledge of future operates outside the periphery of human logic, rationality and morality. (The story itself illustrates the logical fallacies we suffer - irrespective of whether we believe the story to be factual or allegorical.)
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We tend to impose human morality on others ? even God. That?s why we ask questions like, if God decides who will be good and who will be bad, then how can God punish the bad? This is somewhat like accusing an author for doing injustice to the villains in his novel. We believe an author can do whatever to the characters of his novel as he deems fit ? because the characters are not ?real?. We need to understand, in comparison to God?s reality ? We are not that ?real? either.
631 Certainly those who deny meeting with Allah suffer loss. Until whenever suddenly the hour comes to them, they say, ?Oh! Our regret over how we committed excesses concerning it.? ? While they bear their burdens on their backs. Well! Evil is what they carry!
632 And the life of the world is not but a trifle and distraction but the home of the hereafter is better for those who are conscious. So, why do you not understand?
(My personal translation ? cross checking is recommended. Emphasis added.)
God will make some of us do evil and make some of us do good ? He has already showed His kindness by providing us the ?free-will? so that we can take ownership of being evil and being good and thus carry our own burden. Eventually God will punish the evil doers and reward the good doers adequately and fairly per His standard and then all will return to Him. This is His "novel" ? He writes it however He wills.
116 And there are no creatures on the earth except its provision is on Allah. And He knows its settlement and its storage ? everything in a clear book.
(My personal translation ? cross checking is recommended.)
So, what can we do ? now that we know our destiny is fixed? We can still will to be good and strive to be good to be the ?Good Person? in God?s novel. God knows the ending? we don?t so we should operate based on what we know and strive with what we have.
Allah already knows who will win the ongoing soccer world-cup. The teams are not striving to make Allah change His mind, but rather to be the one for whom Allah has destined the Word-cup. We do not change our destiny - we earn it.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
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Armanaziz, aswell as my current work I am also a part time author and you literally helped shift some logic in my mind. I thank you and I'll reread what you said a few times. I have read what others have posted it's just I've been taking it all in and pondering on it. After all, we are only human and have no capacity to understand many things that God obviously knows. I'm learning - we all are. I hope this thread is helping people including myself ).
peace
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We lack the ability to think outside the reference of time. We tend to think and judge everyone based on reference of time. We know that God exists beyond the limits of time and space, but human mind does not have the ability to internalize the full implication of it. In the story of Moses and the wise man in Sura Al-Kahf, we see even someone as wise as Prophet Moses was struggling to cope with the idea that someone with the knowledge of future operates outside the periphery of human logic, rationality and morality. (The story itself illustrates the logical fallacies we suffer - irrespective of whether we believe the story to be factual or allegorical.)
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We tend to impose human morality on others ? even God. That?s why we ask questions like, if God decides who will be good and who will be bad, then how can God punish the bad? This is somewhat like accusing an author for doing injustice to the villains in his novel. We believe an author can do whatever to the characters of his novel as he deems fit ? because the characters are not ?real?. We need to understand, in comparison to God?s reality ? We are not that ?real? either.
bravo bravo bravo
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Armanaziz, aswell as my current work I am also a part time author and you literally helped shift some logic in my mind. I thank you and I'll reread what you said a few times. I have read what others have posted it's just I've been taking it all in and pondering on it. After all, we are only human and have no capacity to understand many things that God obviously knows. I'm learning - we all are. I hope this thread is helping people including myself .
peace
Alhamdulillah. I am glad that Allah made my post useful to you. The thread has been enlightening for me as well. Looking forward to learn more and share more here.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route. Salamun Alaikum.
Regards,
Arman -
Peace,
Sorry I disagree with both the highlighted parts above.
Red If Allah doesn't know which path we will take then how about 287?
287
And We inspired to the mother of Musa, "Suckle him; but when you fear for him, cast him into the river and do not fear and do not grieve. Indeed, We will return him to you and will make him of the messengers."
Allah surely knows that Musa is going to be good person, and reaches the high positions, so said, we will make him of the messengers.
Blue And if every move we make is according to Allah's plan, then there is no reason to punish us.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhanMmkhan, I think I agree (think ).
One thing that still bugs me.
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If in chapter 20 (the verse we discussed before) is where there are the "others" (angels?....) Asking musa about his staff, is it because they don't know what will happen in the future?....
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These "others" - really what are they? Helpers? Allah is high above needing help... No?
peace
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Helpers, ithey are that, would always be for the human. Humans cannot see God, the may "see" His manifestations to the degree of their own spiritual evolution, but God, cannot be "seen". The helpers are like successive "filters" to call it something, that bring to us the amount of "godness" that we are able to grasp or absorb. They are our helpers not Gods, they are God's just like we are God's.
What I find most touching in those narrations and God's treatment of humans is His rahma that takes care fo us in the way most easy for us.
Salaam
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Mmkhan, I think I agree (think ).
One thing that still bugs me.
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If in chapter 20 (the verse we discussed before) is where there are the "others" (angels?....) Asking musa about his staff, is it because they don't know what will happen in the future?....
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These "others" - really what are they? Helpers? Allah is high above needing help... No?
peace
Salaam Sushi,
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Sorry I am not sure who they are, still waiting for answer from my Lord. But I think it might be referring to the sources and processes like, the process of rain has many stages. Lets take animals the first creation is directly by Allah, then the reproductive process continues. The "WE" might be referring to these processes .
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They are not helpers but they work on orders of Allah, for us and for the universes. Indeed, Allah does not need any help.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
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Salamun Alaikum.
Regarding why Al Quran often uses 1st person plural (We) to denote Allah ? my understanding is as follows
In everything that is happening around us, Allah is the one who is the ?inactively active? force. Meaning He is driving everything, but he gets it done through others ? sometimes angels, sometime humans. Whenever He decrees a command He only wills it and it is. That?s why for any action happening in the universe and beyond, Qur?an generally uses We (meaning I through others?).
Take for example the very first instance where such ?We? is used.
21 Alif Lam Mim.
22 That is the book - no doubt in it ? a guidance for the conscious.
23 Those who believe in the unobservable and establish salaat and out of what We provided them ? they spend.
(My personal translation ? cross checking recommended)
There is no doubt that Allah gives us the provision. But does He hand it over to us by his own hand? No ? He does this sometimes through our parents, sometimes through our employer and so on. So this ?what We provided them? can be understood as ?what I provided them through others?.
On the contrary, there are cases where Allah Himself is involved and hence the reference of ?through others? is not relevant. There singular form of pronoun is used. Take the following examples
231 And He taught Adam the names of each of them; (and) later He put them forward to the Angels, then He said, ?Inform Me of the names of these, if you happen to be sincere.?
? ? ?
238 We said, ?Descend from it (you) altogether, and when guidance from Me is brought to you, then whoever follows My guidance so no fear upon them and nor will they grieve.
? ? ?
2152 So remember Me, I will remember you; and appreciate Me and do not repress (faith).
(My personal translation ? cross checking recommended)
If we go back to the specific story of Moses Allah was initially referring to Himself as "I", but suddenly turns from ?I? to ?We? because the act of inspiring Moses?s mother was not done directly by Allah ? it was done through others. Similarly Moses would be made a messenger through others (his followers).
Regarding 2017 which asks Moses what is in his hand ? I believe this is a kind of rhetorical question ? intended to introduce a conversation not one asked out of curiosity. The One who asked the question surely knew the answer better than Moses (pbh).
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman