My current Belief.
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Hi,
I'm Yami.After leaving Sectarian teaching, I have changed, but I'm not like many people here, I have different opinions, in short, here are point in my belief after I left Sunnism
- I PRAY 5 TIMES A DAY (still)
REASON Qur'an mentions morning and evening prayers, and (middle prayers - plural), in Arabic, plural is for 3 or more, so I'm guessing it is 5, something almost globally believed by Muslims, though sometimes I do 3, but If I have time, I will do 5.
- I TAKE QURAN ALONE AS THE SOURCE OF RELIGION
REASON Yes I believe Qur'an is fully detailed of what is required from us, and what is our religion.
So I have refused all other sources (And their beliefs) of religion other than Qur'an.- I see some people have problem with Ramadhan here, I don't, I fast Ramadhan with Sunnis.
REASON Qur'an mentions to fast in the month of Ramadhan.
I don't think a calender can be changed, Ramdahn is Ramadhan, and August remains August, I don't think neither language, nor calender, nor days of the week can be changed, these things are practiced day by day by people and compared, so it is hard to convince a community that tomorrow is (Monday), when they all know that today is Saturday, and Sunday comes after monday.- I LEARNED FROM THE MISTAKE OF ATHEISTS.
CLARIFICATION Majority of Atheists, especaily in the west, after leaving the bible, they made a conclusion that WHATEVER THERE IS IN THE BIBLE, THEN IT IS WRONG). I don't believe in that, I believe that the Bible has many good points, and some bad ones, same as a sectarian's Sunnism and Shiite-ism, so I don't reject Beautiful teachings in those different values, I accept whatever Goes along with the Qur'an, the rest I reject, especially if it is against the Qur'an.
So simply, I don't think every thing in the current Sunnah is wrong, there many beautiful things I have learned from Sunna (which are Qur'anic of course) I got benefit from it in my life, and I'm still holding on to them.
- I PRAY THE SAME WAY SUNNIS DO, Because I don't see anything wrong in it, expect some things I had to remove like (Attahyyat).. so when I pray with a Sunni, they see me doing the same moves as them, but my heart, mind and soul are in different dimensions with them. (I pray by standing, reading Qur'an, making a Rukoo', then a Sujood... and I change this somtimes, the point here is, since the Qur'an does not specify a type of praying, then all praying forms are right, as long as no-wrong things are said and believed in them)
I tried to make this very short,
If you need more clarification or have any other comment,
I will be ready to discuss and reply.This is my belief so far,
Hopefully I will find guidance if I am wrong,
Or stay firm on my belief If I'm right.Peace,
Yami. -
Hi,
I'm Yami.After leaving Sectarian teaching, I have changed, but I'm not like many people here, I have different opinions, in short, here are point in my belief after I left Sunnism
- I PRAY 5 TIMES A DAY (still)
REASON Qur'an mentions morning and evening prayers, and (middle prayers - plural), in Arabic, plural is for 3 or more, so I'm guessing it is 5, something almost globally believed by Muslims, though sometimes I do 3, but If I have time, I will do 5.
- I TAKE QURAN ALONE AS THE SOURCE OF RELIGION
REASON Yes I believe Qur'an is fully detailed of what is required from us, and what is our religion.
So I have refused all other sources (And their beliefs) of religion other than Qur'an.- I see some people have problem with Ramadhan here, I don't, I fast Ramadhan with Sunnis.
REASON Qur'an mentions to fast in the month of Ramadhan.
I don't think a calender can be changed, Ramdahn is Ramadhan, and August remains August, I don't think neither language, nor calender, nor days of the week can be changed, these things are practiced day by day by people and compared, so it is hard to convince a community that tomorrow is (Monday), when they all know that today is Saturday, and Sunday comes after monday.- I LEARNED FROM THE MISTAKE OF ATHEISTS.
CLARIFICATION Majority of Atheists, especaily in the west, after leaving the bible, they made a conclusion that WHATEVER THERE IS IN THE BIBLE, THEN IT IS WRONG). I don't believe in that, I believe that the Bible has many good points, and some bad ones, same as a sectarian's Sunnism and Shiite-ism, so I don't reject Beautiful teachings in those different values, I accept whatever Goes along with the Qur'an, the rest I reject, especially if it is against the Qur'an.
So simply, I don't think every thing in the current Sunnah is wrong, there many beautiful things I have learned from Sunna (which are Qur'anic of course) I got benefit from it in my life, and I'm still holding on to them.
- I PRAY THE SAME WAY SUNNIS DO, Because I don't see anything wrong in it, expect some things I had to remove like (Attahyyat).. so when I pray with a Sunni, they see me doing the same moves as them, but my heart, mind and soul are in different dimensions with them. (I pray by standing, reading Qur'an, making a Rukoo', then a Sujood... and I change this somtimes, the point here is, since the Qur'an does not specify a type of praying, then all praying forms are right, as long as no-wrong things are said and believed in them)
I tried to make this very short,
If you need more clarification or have any other comment,
I will be ready to discuss and reply.This is my belief so far,
Hopefully I will find guidance if I am wrong,
Or stay firm on my belief If I'm right.Peace,
Yami.I totally agree with you!
Have a blessed Ramadan
peace
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Salam alaykum.
I agree with all the points you have mentioned, dear brother. But one thing. Do you pray in Arabic? It is not mandatory to recite surahs from the Quran, but reciting surah al-fatiha in salat is perfectly fine. But other surahs such as surah al-masad is irrevalent and does not make sense as per my understanding. And when you pray, I believe you can use the language that you best understand and it does not necessarily has to be Arabic. I am sure you will agree that God understands all languages and is not bound to any specific language. Knowing what you are saying during your salat is vital.
Regards.
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As Salamu Alaika brother Yamibato.
I am also aligned with you in everything that you said. Do not feel alone.
A few suggestions from my part to you - the ritual salaat, the siam, the prescribed zakaat these are part of "Manasikan" or rituals. I believe Qur'an endorses these rituals but usually does not give minute details, because for Allah the details are not critical - the intention is critical. So, let's not get overly obsessed with reinventing the rituals based on data mining from Qur'an. That will put as back into the very "blind ritualism" which we are trying to avoid. Let's follow the rituals we have learned with our best intentions - in sha Allah it will be acceptable. Let followers of other sects follow their rituals. Allah would judge us based on what is in our heart - not by the conformity of our rituals.
A notable exception to the above would be the "Hajj" ritual. I would love to perform hajj but never the pagan practices of stone kissing or stone throwing or the obsession of zamzam water drinking. A ritual which goes fundamentally against faith must be avoided.
Also let's be extremely careful about promoting something as haraam. Sunny belief promotes a lot of things as haraam without any basis in Qur'an. It may be ok to avoid those anyway, but promoting those as "haraam" is a severe crime per Qur'an. Allah has not given that authority to anyone - not even the prophet.
May Allah guide us to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Do you pray in Arabic?
Salam Dear brother,
Yes I pray in Arabic sometimes, because that is how my Sunni family taught me, but sometimes, when I don't feel the prayer, I switch it to my mothers tongue i.e Kurdish, there are times where I pray in English, or even silently think of the words of the Qur'an.Usually I stand up, read Al Fatihah, then I open the Qur'ran where I left it last time and continue praying...
After I do a unit (Rkat) I might read al Fatiha again, or I might skip repeating it and contiue the Qur'an.. what I like about Praying is it is full custom, with a base.So basically that is my praying in very short.
Peace,
Yami. -
Do not feel alone.
yes
I believe Qur'an endorses these rituals but usually does not give minute details, because for Allah the details are not critical - the intention is critical. So, let's not get overly obsessed with reinventing the rituals based on data mining from Qur'an. That will put as back into the very "blind ritualism" which we are trying to avoid. Let's follow the rituals we have learned with our best intentions - in sha Allah it will be acceptable. Let followers of other sects follow their rituals. Allah would judge us based on what is in our heart - not by the conformity of our rituals.
I agree, Sunni Islam is almost always about rituals, Mankind has to server, live and die for rituals, in the Quranic world, I see the opposite, Rituals are there to make you a better human with the outside world, so I Agree, but I had to mention what I believe in. )
A notable exception to the above would be the "Hajj" ritual. I would love to perform hajj but never the pagan practices of stone kissing or stone throwing or the obsession of zamzam water drinking. A ritual which goes fundamentally against faith must be avoided.
I haven't thought about that yet, nor anytime soon, I'm kinda kinda young, I will ask for help when my time comes.
Also let's be extremely careful about promoting something as haraam. Sunny belief promotes a lot of things as haraam without any basis in Qur'an. It may be ok to avoid those anyway, but promoting those as "haraam" is a severe crime per Qur'an. Allah has not given that authority to anyone - not even the prophet.
True true true ) I have Removed tons of things listed as "Haram" in my mind and in my families mind, which is not Haram in the Qur'an.
God bless, thank you very much,
Peace,
Yami. -
peace yami,
Just a small clarification, you said "(middle prayers - plural)". The Quran uses the word "salawat" which is a plural of "salat", not specifically with regard to plural middle prayers. You can read more
here, which discusses 2238.Dear admin, brother Wakas,
Due to my time limit, the article was too long for me to read, since it also had referrals to other articles.. so can u pls instead tell me what you think in conclusion of the contact prayer ?Thank you very much.
Peace,
Yami. -
Dear admin, brother Wakas,
Due to my time limit, the article was too long for me to read, since it also had referrals to other articles.. so can u pls instead tell me what you think in conclusion of the contact prayer ?Thank you very much.
Peace,
Yami.See http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm
Summary
To gain a better understanding of The System/Obligation, it is clear a better understanding of al quran would be required. That is why a regular/timed salat is given. In this regular/timed salat, reading / reflection / oration of al quran is prescribed. This can be done alone or in a group/community setting.
Verses linking salat to al quran 243-45, 4103, 512-13, 7169-170, 82-3, 1958-59, 2945, 312-7, 3333-34, 1778-79, 731-4, 7320.
the salat should be done during/close to the morning & evening twilight times (i.e. a minimum of 2x per day)
When one undertakes this regular/timed salat, one should follow the specific guidelines given, e.g be clean , clear mind , moderate tone (although this may only apply when in groups due to the context of this verse) etc.
This regular/timed salat is only obligatory upon the mumin (believers/faithful/trustful), see 4103. Mumin is different to muslim.
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I don't know, I have to make a bit more research, but I'm totally flexible on this.. I told u sometimes it is 3, sometimes I do 5... or even 4.
3, 5 or 4? I slightly agree with Wakas and others who say it is 2. There is weight for an 'awareness of the God' prayer 2 times a day but I also think that 'Salat' in the Quran involves a daily communal gathering rather than an individual prayer - NOT the friday prayer - which I think was only something relevant at the time of Muhammed.
It is normal to be confused for a long time about the number though. I myself am a convert from christianity (since like 14 years ago) and I did the 5 daily prayers on and off like for 6 months when I first started out, learnt them properly in arabic and everything and took them very seriously. After a lot of study I had moved away from sunni islam after about a year, but then became lost under the influence of the 'submitters' who act like they are the only people 'authorised' to follow the Quran alone, with their pretend messenger Rashad Khalifa. A man who ironically also endorsed the 5 prayers in the same rakah pattern, (even though he couldn't really find concrete evidence for all 5 in the Quran and had to rely on his 19 code calculations separate to the Quran but whatever).
Around 2004 after several other 'messengers' turned up with variations of the 19 code and a big fight between the submitters which saw them separating into two groups I had had enough and distanced myself from them all and stopped doing any kind of daily prayer. I was becoming influenced by fellow ex-submitter (and now one of my heros) Edip Yuksel who if you don't know - he is kind of like a scholar (but a good one ). But I was unsure because some of the submitters talked badly of him and warned me to stay away from his teachings.
They seem to hate Edip as he was originally a supporter of them but then challenged them and then left and spoke out against them; I think they felt threatend by him and they back then were actively warning me away from this site here as well, so for a long time I was not aware that actually there was another way to think of the salat. But after like 6 years of nothing but depression, I decided to 'risk it' and read all what Edip had to say on his site and well it blew me away...I ended up officially ending my belief in Rashad as a messenger even though Edip who was good friends with Rashad before he died is still a believer that he is a messenger I think, but I did not care anymore or believe any more that the 19 code could be used as 'proof' that there are mandatory 5 prayers...(or maybe as proof of anything).
I went back to doing daily prayers but this time in the style that Edip recommended with his translation of a Quranic verse mentioning a noon prayer - so 3 times a day and wow, being able to say it in english rather than some garbled arabic that I did not understand was like a dream come true! And feeling like I did not have to recite any scripture but I could just say what I wanted - I felt like hail. Edip's site talks about his collusion with this site's founder Layth and it all sounded good so I decided this site must be 'safe' after all, lol. (Now when I think how the submitters warned me off here when it is full of so many enlightened people and they themselves act like a cult or something I feel like elektro.
Anyway, I wandered back over here in 2010 and read the many threads challenging Edip's and others' translation about the noon prayer saying it is also incorrect and that there is just 2 daily prayers - at both ends of the day, dawn and sunset. In 2011 I undertook to read the 2008 Freeminds translation of the Quran (called 'The message' by The Monotheist Group) all of the way through over several days as I wanted to try to get the real idea of it rather than just trying to tape bits and pieces together (I had also done that with Rashad Khalifa's translation and I wanted to compare the two). This time it took me about 4 days of constant reading to get the whole way through it, but having had all of the information 'presented all at once' it did give me a previously unknown outlook on the whole Salat thing (as well as other important topics).
My now current understanding of 'Salat' is that it is NOT a prayer done with Quranic verses and prostrations x time a day but rather something similar to the original jewish and early christian evening communal prayer from sunset til the end of twilight. Jesus would apparently gather his disciples in the evening for a communal prayer and meal and said 'do this in memory of me' which I think was actually supposed to be 'do this in memory of the God as I have shown you' but later became 'me' when christians starting worshipping Jesus brickwall. Anyway, the practice has survived in mainstream christianity and is still known as 'communion' and it appeared to have been a daily thing until it was switched to weekly, on a sunday.
At the same time, also in the Quran, there is the encouragement to hold something similar at dawn - but I think only during the time of Muhammad when this time would have been specifically for the latest recitation of the Quran. I am not convinced a dawn gathering/communion is necessary now that Muhammad is no longer with us. There are some who say no - the Quran must still be recited/read at dawn and whereas this may be beneficial; I think the context is that it was just when Muhammad was alive that it was mandatory for the believers to gather to listen to him reciting it for them and it is optional now. I am annoyed with people who say 'you must read Quran at dawn' or you are not a believer >(.
It is hard in the modern world to have an automatic awareness of the God at dawn though. I do not believe the God wishes us to use alarm clocks (in fact I consider them the work of satan). Nor do I believe there should be a 'call to prayer' at dawn either as I believe the God naturally wakes us up at dawn when we are living a life intune with nature; rural people in olden times with no artifical light would apparently go to bed soon after sunset and rise again after the dawn which I feel is what is 'intended'.
I have noticed when I cut out artificial light after sunset altogether and just use candles for an hour or so and then go to bed - after a few days I start to naturally wake with the dawn and you cannot not focus on the God when you are witnessing the miracle of the sun coming up. When I go back to 'normal' and use my PC and electric lights after dark or go out into street where the street lights are, then I tend to sleep less deeply that night and thus need more of it and will then sleep right through to early morning, well past dawn. I believe that there should be no effort in religion and that actually our bodies are naturally wired to be in-line with the God and it is only the things we do against what is 'natural' that take us away from awareness.
So the only 'Salat' as I understand it is the specific commandment for the evening communal gathering. Separate to that there is constant reference to 'believers' - with no religion mentioned - being the ones who praise the God morning and evening. 'Awareness of God' type prayer at both 'ends of the day' is a constant theme in the Quran. I am wondering if the two distinct 'themes' have merged into this mandatory 5 daily prayer thing in 'modern islam', but that this is in fact a corruption from pagan arabia and hadith. This line of thinking has also further convinced me that it cannot also involve a noon prayer. One thing I can't let go of however, is that this interpretation of Salat as a evening communal gathering is only supposed to be for men and women are exempt from it. Or that there is one for men in public and one for women at home. I do not think this is sexist, I think it would make sense. The language surrounding this Salat seems to be aimed at men anyway, at least according to the translation I have.
Currently I am not sure whether I should still 'acknowledge the God' with a sunset prayer ritual by myself since I do not know any other Quran-aloners locally so it is not possible to do a communal gathering. Perhaps just being 'present' with myself and trying to be aware of the sunset happening is enough? Sometimes I do not even do that though...half of the time I don't realise it is growing dark. Especially in winter when it comes on quickly and I am tied up with something or so absorbed in what I am doing and suddenly it is fully dark and too late and I think 'now what?' Then if I decide to go to bed well after, like, 11pm or something and then I feel confused about whether I should still attempt it or not as technically it is at the 'wrong time'. But I can't bring myself to go to bed without doing anything because being brought up christian you are not supposed to be able to even get into bed without having prayed immediately before that pr so most of the time I end up doing this because otherwise I can't sleep because of the guilt lol. When I do make the effort to stop what I am doing to at least watch the sun go down and then go to bed soon after it takes away this dilemma AND I am then more than likely going to naturally wake up for the dawn too.
So a dawn and sunset 'awareness of the God' is the minimum thing to aim for I think, if you are alone and cannot do the real Salat i.e. the evening communal gathering. Noon is for catching up on sleep to make up for any you lose by waking so early but this is NOT another prayer time. I also do not think ablutions is necessary for whatever you are going to do at dawn whether it's physical praying, reading the Quran or even just a kind of meditation - which you can do without even getting out of bed. From my translation and common sense I think the ablutions is only mandatory for the evening communal gathering when you are going to be mixing with others. I believe there is at least one other member on here who holds the same view which he actually reached independently of me.
This pattern must be our natural inclination and must keep us healthy. We are all familiar with birds having a kind of communal gathering in the trees at sunset, going to sleep in their nests, then they are awake again at dawn to sing the praises of the God
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Anyway, sorry to hijack your thread with all this talk about myself but I just thought I would share my journey with the 'mandatory prayers'.
Peace.
sun
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Peace Jane,
It all depends on what you understand (salawa) to be. But in my world "wusta" does not mean 'middle' but 'best' and that based on research of where the base word occurs in the contexts of the recitation.
The only instances with a timing involved ought to be fajr and isha which I take to be morning and evening after studying the phenomenon deeper.
But as some people know I do not interpret salat to refer to prayer, at least not through the word's meaning. Prayer may be included in a "salat", but it is not specifically meaning prayer even remotely.
And I take the recitation (Quran) to first handedly be aimed towards a cleric of sorts, or preacher, a person who wishes to spread the word of God. This is my understanding of why it talks about "private time" after morning "salat" and after evening "salat". I think it refers to a priest-like person's daily schedule of work to unite the assembly for God.
The recitation (Quran) as compiled is more of a manuscript for someone who wishes to preach God's command and it does it well. It would be the perfect handbook for a cleric in an assembly. Other people benefit from a copy too, but that seems not as it'is primary target. And they need to be mindful of contexts talking about going up for the morning salat and evening salat.
This is not an implication that you need a cleric to understand it, but only that its seemingly original purpose was for a preacher, i. e. someone who wishes to unite people to God and invite them, make them join the assembly and accept God's guidance.
Prayer on the other hand the Arabic base word (duwa) stands for. That means to call upon God and where (dua) is formed from. When you pray you do dua basically. And that word can indicate call, request and even summon and well fits the purpose for the traditional word "pray". If you read al-fatiah you request something so hence it is a dua and calling The Master.
God bless you
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See http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm
Summary
Thank you very much, but what I was really asking for what the number of times we pray, not what is praying it self, I have my own definition of praying and I'm very satisfied with it, (Which is Quranic of course), but my understanding.
I will try to read those articles inshaAllah soon, so that I may send you a message after I read it.
Peace,
Yami. -
@JANE
ABOUT PRAYINIGThe reason is, As as a Medical student, sometimes I sleep they day and stay the night, so Miss the time of a prayer, ending up in 4, but I try for my, always, but If I missed one, I won't feel guilty, because praying is for me, and I knew I did my best to pray without forcing my self beyond limit, so I do 4, but I would have done 5 If I had the time, becase I really really need praying! for someone to love praying and need it, should understand it first in my opinion, so I believe those beliefs of praying only 2 times are not really correct, it has some ritual-laziness into it, but I will pray 2 times If I get convinced, so far it is not.
ABOUT RASHAD KHALIFA
Rashad Khalifa is just another human, Like Muhammad, and Like you and me...
I have the Qur'an, and I listen to everyone, but I follow the best understanding of all, simple as that.ABOUT EDIP YUKSEL
I hated Edip as well, but I really like him now, and indeed he is a roll-model to me as well, he is an honest guy as much as I understand him, and u can see him live on videos and stuff, nothing tricky.I do not believe the God wishes us to use alarm clocks
If I don't, I will miss all my exams and daily studying. We should if we need it.
(in fact I consider them the work of satan)
It is a great invention, Satan is not Enstein in Cambridge university, he has no physical power on us, he can not invent shi!t, all he can is just whisper bad ideas.
Nor do I believe there should be a 'call to prayer'
I believe there should be as a reminder, sometimes I'm so busy, I would have forgotten my meditations dose of Salat If it hadn't been for the Azan.
God naturally wakes us up
I have some articles hopefully to be published soon on "God doing things to us".
rural people in olden times with no artifical light would apparently go to bed soon after sunset and rise again after the dawn which I feel is what is 'intended'.
Even rural people had light, and still they have the same biological clock, they live healthier than us in many aspects, that is the reason.
ABOUT LIGHT
Yeah, when u sleep, light should not be available, it decreases the secretion of melatonin hormone from the pineal gland of the brain, which is responsible for reparing the body cells.ABOUT PRAYING
I feel like what they do is point # 4 in my original article,
Just because Sunnah was infiltrated, rejecting the whole of it is not a good idea (Yet you can do it, no objection)
I believe that the 5 times prayer have been kept as it is, since it is practiced daily, and the Qur'an supports it, if not, fine I will do 3, or even 2, but the evidence has to be strong enough to convince.I believe and and women should pray together, and the Qur'anic language doesn't make a differenence between male and female, if there is, then they are mentioned by name. otherwise, arabic has to use one dialect (either male, or female) but the male one is stronger and more used among arabs, simple.
Peace,
Yami. -
... But other surahs such as surah al-masad is irrevalent and does not make sense as per my understanding....
nope
Salamun Alaikum.
If you find a particular verse / section of Al Qur'an difficult to understand, suggest you revisit it later and pray to Allah to guide you. Counting it out as irrelevant is arrogance. May Allah save us from arrogance.
May I refer you to the translation of surah al-masad by Muhammad Asad? Please look up, perhaps the sura will not seem that "irrelevant" any more. Or follow the following hints
While prima facie the sura appear to be a condemnation of an uncle of Prophet Muhammad - the real beauty of the sura gets revealed once you understand that "abu lahab" literally means father of flame - or idiomatically one who generates flame and "hamma latal hatab" literally means carrier of firewood - or idiomatically one who "surreptitiously carries evil tales and slander from one person to another" (exact words of Muhammad Asad). Once you understand and appreciate these two idomatic expressions you can appreciate that the sura does not only condemn an individual but rather through its idomatic expression condemns all those who ignite flame of hatred and war between people and their partners who add fuel to that fire.
In today's age of social media - it is not difficult to observe some miscreants generating flame of hatred between people through false of exaggerated posts and their followers knowingly or unknwingly carrying the firewood by sharing the post widespread! Alas, how they are putting the rope of twisted thread around their own necks!
Irrelevant? Perhaps quite on the contrary.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
I don't think it is irrelevant as well..
When I read anything in the Qur'an, I can connect it to real life.I read in the original Arabic, I guess I'm blessed for knowing it.
So Alhamdlillah, I have no issues in reading and/or understanding.Peace,
Yami. -
I don't think it is irrelevant as well..
When I read anything in the Qur'an, I can connect it to real life.I read in the original Arabic, I guess I'm blessed for knowing it.
So Alhamdlillah, I have no issues in reading and/or understanding.Peace,
Yami.Salamu alaika brother Yami.
I was commenting on a specific remark of brother Scribbler. My post was not addressed to you. Hope there was no misunderstanding.
Your knowledge of Arabic is a tremendous plus point. I'd be delighted to consult with you meanings of verses from time to time.Regards,
ArmanRegards,
