Fasting - at the poles?
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Could Al fajr and Al layl possibly refer to timings and not to some phenomenon of nature? I am just thinking out aloud here. We know that the Quran often spoke briefly - because the audience was already well acquinted with the concepts and meanings of certain words. Could anyone expert at Arabic confirm that al fajr and al layl only refer to dawn and night and can not refer to timings? By timings I am thinking clocks. Ofcourse clocks the like of today weren't around, but water clocks and sundials were as old as BC, so...
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I am tending to think tht what Jane said in a message that fast is fixed in a solar calendar all over and that it is to be on the day of equinox and the adjacet days.
Hang on I don't remember saying the equinox bit...unless you can show me the post? I know I have said a few times I think it is Autumn time, yes. But not necessarily the equinox which is a third of the way into September... I am thinking Ramadan as some have translated to be 'after heat' can't be mid-summer but like August time. I thought I had confirmation because the 'Night of Power' seems to be connected with the rising of 'Sirius' or the 'dog star' in my translation of the Quran which, according to my own research happens some time in August.
But
Problem 1) The galaxies are not permanent things and maybe the stars will have had a different course through the sky back in 7th century Arabia so the August time may not actually be 'correct'. Plus I believe the star is not visible everywhere in the world especially not in cloudy Britain.Problem 2) I do not fully trust the translation I have or indeed any of them as I believe none can fully convey the original nor am I fully convinced that the Quran does say that it was revealed in this one night. That sounds too much like the hadith books influencing the translaters again.
Problem 3) I am still wondering if women might actually be exempt from mandatory fasting which makes it irrelevant for me anyway
Problem 4) there are so many people who believe it is around the summer solstice with a lot of evidence presented, how can they all be wrong?
Problem 5) If Ramadan is the '9 month' then that does indicate September
Problem 6) This still doesn't answer the basic question why would something that worked for people in arabia be right for people who live in northern europe. Shouldn't everyone live according to their own climate? The 'natural' time to fast here would be late spring not autumn or summer which is harvest time.
Aaaargh!
giveup
Peace out
peace
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I read that suggestion in one message of yours, I know you were doubting, but I read that, amonsto other things. I do not say you chose that alternative.
Howeve, if it is when the heat is past, a safe date for both emispheres would be the equinox. I don't see what that would change if it is in Arabia or anywhere else. That is a very important factor.
But, as I said, that is a matter of checking what the Qur'an actually says. I have not come to that yet.
As to the harvest, I come from peasant families and I would say that by the equinox the worst is over. The worst is precisely the summer including august. But of course it depends of the kind of crops that are being grown.
In the past, since so much work was manual, I think any time except the crudest winter might be hard, today I do not see that the equinox timeing would be more unbearable that any time later, and it would be the same for people all over.
May be it is lunar and it is meant to change from year to year, I do not know. As I say I would have to check on that and that may be long job, since so many other checkings would have to be made on the kind of calendar and all that.
Salaam
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peace all,
hawk99, I was referring to this (bold)
2/185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of
the guidance and the distinction; therefore whoever of you witnessed the shahr, he shall fast therein, and
whoever is sick or upon a journey, then (he shall fast) a (like) number of other days; Allah desires ease for you,
and He does not desire for you difficulty, and (He desires) that you should complete the number and that you
should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks.What happens if you don't witness it?
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Thanks Wakas, I had not paid due attention to the piece highlighted and underlined, I think that conclusively settles it.
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Peace Wakas,
You will be doooomed to Heeeelllll!
No, but you can compensate by doing charitable deeds. Sawm is just a encouragement for whatever it is supposed to be and for how long.
My trouble with the understanding is how God can say not wanting to make it difficult to us and the implement a "monster-fast" of approximately 30 days.
My other suspicion is why the "Islamic" fast is not in line with fasting in Judaism or Christianity which "Islam" is supposed to be the same faith just revealed to different communities.
My job is physically demanding and I live in Sweden with intensive monster-fasts and I can hardly fast while I need to work. I would jeopardize my health.
The mystery around Ramadhan is my last black zone in faith really after being confident about what I know about everything else.
God bless you
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Peace,
For the benefit of everyone. I have confirmed that Ramadan literally means - "intense heat" - "hararah shadeedah", I am at work right now, several colleagues are local arabs. Ofcourse as I expected, initially they told me that it's the month of fasting. But then I asked them aside from its traditional meaning, it definitely means "intense heat". So Shahr-e-Ramadan - month of intense heat. Therefore logically there is no fasting in cold months.
For people who are unable to fast, God has laid out alternatives of course. God indeed wishes ease for us, but that doesn't imply that there will not be any challenge or strive. Of course, fasting is for our own good, as God says. I am not a biology expert, but it does stimulate detoxification - from a physical perspective, and heat has a part to play in that. There may be other benefits.
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Well, I wouldn't consider 10-20 degrees C (appr. 50-70 degrees F) to be intense heat though. This is what many places get in summer.
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If the fasting should bring benefits through the heat in the environment, then again this only works in some parts of the world. But this heat benefit has no real basis in the Qur'an I guess.
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The meaning "intense heat" would then probably describe a time of the year in the very geographical location where the Qur'an was revealed.
For those who enjoy calendars... I bumped into this on the web. Not sure if it is crap or contains some validity. It's quite lengthy.
http//www.ccg.org/english/s/p053.htmlPeace
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I recently had this troubling thought, how does one living at the North or South Pole fast as per the prescription in the Quran?
A couple of things I already have in mind
Perhaps the poles were not inhabited at that time? My knowledge is lacking here- hence this thought' but then that creates a conflict in the Quran"s claim of being i.e. "a guidance for mankind" - implied meaning "all" mankind of course.
Fasting is prescribed in "Ramadan" i.e the month of high heat, or the month in which the Quran was revealed. What are we supposed to lean upon? Fasting because supposedly fasting in the heat is beneficial for the body? or, because it is more of a spiritual endeavor to be more aware of God? Either way, that creates a problem for those living in parts of the world, where the days can be unhealthly long and nights unhealthly short...or am I missing something from the Quran when it comes down to understanding?
Fasting is an initial stage of self-discipline to acquire self-control.
The technicalities of how you do it, where and when doesn't really matter.Every culture / tradition have their own technicality details of how and when, suited to their own living environment.
But it's the objective that matter, not the technicalities...
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Peace,
I agree that the objective matters and that the purpose of fasting is to acquire self-discipline and self control. But this is just a means to an end, i.e. God's good pleasure and forgiveness - that is the real objective. But the objective is only meaningful if you do it the way God prescribes it (and you can find it in the Quran if it matters). Without that all of this is meaningless anyway.
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I agree that the objective matters and that the purpose of fasting is to acquire self-discipline and self control. But this is just a means to an end, i.e. God's good pleasure and forgiveness
If God's forgiveness is your objective.
Then you need to 'forgive' others..
The rule is that simple.. do unto others what you want God do to you..And 'self-control' will help you do that.
With 'self-control' you can avoid any negative emotional outburst, fanaticism, grudges, urge for revenge and it shall makes it easier for you to forgive.But the objective is only meaningful if you do it the way God prescribes it (and you can find it in the Quran if it matters). Without that all of this is meaningless anyway.
Without the end-result of actual 'good deed' / 'action'. rite is meaningless.
While technicalities of the rites doesn't matter.Feel free to study the world around you for evidence of it..
Book and writings can be forged, but the actual world around you no human can forge it.. -
peace all,
hawk99, I was referring to this (bold)
What happens if you don't witness it?
Peace Wakas,
My mistake, as far as witness goes I think that those who know that this is Ramadan are witnessing this month!
This is different from citing.Related to WITNESS
Synonyms
attestation, confirmation, corroboration, documentation, evidence, substantiation, testament, testimonial, testimony, validation, voucher, proof
Have a blessed Ramadan
peace
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http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.183/1.gif
It is a Verbal Noun of verbs -. A verbal noun signifies an act and a state without time reference. Its Root is " ". Ibn Faris , renowned lexicographer stated( ة
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That it leads to the perception of abstinence, and stasis-stagnancy at home.
The objective is that you people might remain self cautious and avoid conduct inspired and governed by emotion in reverence and fear of Allah the Exalted.
All our desires and acts are motivated for satisfying three areas of the body chest; belly, and pelvic area. The appetites of belly and pelvic area are a natural phenomena and can also be triggered involuntarily by external stimuli and man can become victim of sudden incontrollable emotional surge. Volitional and conscious suspension of satiating the desires of belly and pelvic area during the day time of the month of Ramadan is an exercise to develop ability of holding firm control over these urges. This exercise will help develop the ability to hold back or run away in an urging situation to avoid an act which is inspired and governed by emotion.
man at a given point in time is in either of the two frames
- He is governing his chest, belly and genitalia; or.
- He is governed by his chest, belly and/or genitalia.
In the first frame the man is using his Logical brain Prefrontal cortex. Thereat, he truly depicts his status and appointment as self-governor enjoying freedom, discretion and executive authority of will of self rule. But when he wishes not to govern his brains and body parts he surrenders himself to the disposal of either Emotional brain or Stem-Survival-reptilian brain; he is in the second frame a slave and host of desires and lusts of belly and pelvic area.
The Fasting
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As to the harvest, I come from peasant families and I would say that by the equinox the worst is over. The worst is precisely the summer including august. But of course it depends of the kind of crops that are being grown.
That is what I suspected. It would not make sense to fast for a whole month around this time then when most people would have to be engaged in physical work lasting all day and into the night as gathering of the harvest tends to be. However the evidence for the 'Night of power' being related to the stars and not the moon and therefore a fixed point around august is strong. Perhaps 'Ramadan' as a period of fasting and the requirement to fast on this special night ARE ACTUALLY TWO DISTINCT THINGS?? hmm
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Peace wasi,
However the meaning of that word is abstention hence why it is used for the same purpose but abstention from speech. It is not specified what kind of abstention is for 2183 and onwards, however we can probably infer that it is abstention from food and drink. The same abstention is also used as a punishment that one can voluntarily undertake to repent for sins. If the abstention was from speech then it would be a way harder punishment than if it was from food or drink because then you are virtually invalidated during the course of the month or two in the case of some punishments.
However I think that the usage of fajr and isha are misunderstood and that causes a problem that the fasting causes "monster-fasts" in certain regions of the Earth. To me is seems as if it should be beginning in the morning and run until dusk. And I would suppose that it is on once the sun is visible in the horizon and ends once it disappears. Obviously some regions still have a problem with that but what the heck... just improvise. God cannot be that intolerant. Take a standard morning let us say from 6am until a normal evening 8-9ish. The fast should run according to normal human wake hours and not in some unnatural way even if the light days say otherwise. God is not that square-minded.
People are too stuck on details. Just go up eat breakfast at your normal time and then fast until the evening and break it there.
However I have a feeling that Ramadan fasting is intended as a way of redemption for your acquired sins and should run for a comparable number of days.
Everywhere except 2183-187 fasting is used as a punishment or redemption for sins, but strangely not in the 183-187. However I think I know why and that is another scandalous misrepresentation of the Arabic discourse.
God bless you
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People are too stuck on details. Just go up eat breakfast at your normal time and then fast until the evening and break it there.
The Quran provides details about the beginning and ending times of fasting. What you are saying is indeed going against those Quranic verses. Now of course you will say as always that those verses have not been interpreted correctly.
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Peace,
Yes of course. It has not, in most cases. Why not is astonishing.
I know the traditional interpretation of white thread against the background of black.
Unfortunately it is impossible to follow that instruction in some regions because the sun does not leave any darkness behind and thus you have to to instead implement a reasonable compromise.
In countries like Arabia or Iran closer to the equator fasting becomes a reasonable period. I had between around 5 o'clock in the morning until around 8 o'clock the years I was in Iran. And when the twilight is visible it takes less than 30 minutes until there is full light and after cirka 15 minutes of twilight you can see the sun. But as soon as you move in any direction away from the equator the fasting becomes harder and harder and eventually you are supposed to fast around the clock following the passage literally. I suppose an attempting person would be quite exhausted afterwards.
I tried to fast a couple of years ago in Sweden and I went through with it with monster fasts from around 130am until 1015pm for a couple of weeks. What kind of fast is that?
This is why you could as well fast from 6 in the morning until the evening and doubtfully God will be grumpy about that devotion.
God bless you
