Issues on salat
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Peace All.
Qoran is fully detalied, with no vagueness or contradiction? What requirement of the "deen" is missing? Our deen has been completed and perfected in the last scripture including "salat"
Qoran also tells us why we observe "Salat"?
The soul and Him who created it. Then showed it what is evil and what is good. Successful is one who redeems it. Failing is one who neglects it.Thr requirement of "salat" is clear
You shall recite what is revealed to you of the scripture, and observe the Salat, for the Salat prohibits evil and vice. But the remembrance of God (through Salat) is the most important objective. God knows everything you do.All that was asked of them was to serve/ worship God, devoting the religion absolutely to Him alone, observe the Salat, and give the Zakat. Such is the perfect deen.
Indeed, those who reverence the rites decreed by God demonstrate the righteousness of their hearts.
For those who still have doubts
And serve/ worship your Lord, in order to attain certainty.GOD bless you all.
Peace. -
Peace Jane.
GOD sends scriptures and messengers for our salvation.
How / Why/what /when/... are up to us to sort out. Also we need to sort out our priorities?
Yes, it is about what the GOD really wants and means ,not about what we want!"Salat" is a gift from GOD to help us towards our salvation
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You shall seek help through steadfastness and the Salat. This is difficult indeed, but not so for the reverent,246
who believe that they will meet their Lord; that to Him they ultimately return.231
Successful indeed are the believers;232
who are reverent during their Salat.Of course everyone is free to translate/understand it the way they want?
God bless you.
Peace. -
Welcome to the forum Nyte
alh is an obligation on those who believe that all commandments in the Quran are from God.
Whether one feels an inclination to perform ?lh or not is irrelevant to the applicability of the commandment.
It is a categorically stated fact that the remembrance of God induces a state of peacefulness in one's heart (132.
As such, it can safely be said that if one is not deriving a sense of contentment from ?lh, then the heart's devotion to God is deficient in some way.
Furthermore, one''s adoption of ?lh as a regular practice can be gradual and it need not be rushed.
In a nutshell, ?lh is an obligation that will render your heart peaceful and?if you feel uncomfortable performing it?then ease into it at your own pace.
I hope you don't find my tone dominating. I have tried to be objective while keeping in mind your experiences of ?lh.
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First of all, I would also like to apologize if I sound harsh here. I just wanted to put straight questions and remarks, and though they might even sound sarcastic, they're just plain questions... and a plain answer in the same style will do. I'm not after the poster; I'm just chewing the subject matter.
Whether one feels an inclination to perform ?lh or not is irrelevant to the applicability of the commandment.
It is a categorically stated fact that the remembrance of God induces a state of peacefulness in one's heart (132.
As such, it can safely be said that if one is not deriving a sense of contentment from ?lh, then the heart's devotion to God is deficient in some way.
And if the namaz doesn't induce such peacefulness, then is it the fault of the practitioner, or is perhaps the exercise not the actual salat?
Furthermore, this way of reasoning is often used by sects/cults to induce guilt an fear into their members to keep them in line. They're told they're not pure enough, not ready, not strong enough, don't have strong enough faith... and therefore they must give more money (or whatever the sacrifice is). It's plain old emotional blackmail.
Also, it is painfully apparent that salat (as in namaz) is NOT preventing evil and vice, and doesn't seem to induce peacefulness either... at least not more than practices of other religions. People backbite, lie and murder, then do the namaz, and then again go back to their evil works. Is it that the namaz didn't have an effect on them (due to their wickedness), or is it that the namaz isn't the salat? Wasn't salat supposed to prevent evil?
Furthermore, one''s adoption of ?lh as a regular practice can be gradual and it need not be rushed.
In a nutshell, ?lh is an obligation that will render your heart peaceful and?if you feel uncomfortable performing it?then ease into it at your own pace.
You mean to start with e.g. 1 times a day instead of 5? Sounds reasonable, but...
What about those who start noticing that the namaz is not getting you closer to God after having done it their whole life? Are they wicked because of this? Have they gone rouge? Have their hearts hardened? What if they have other ways of feeling very close to Allah? Has that no worth in comparison to doing the namaz?Peace and best regards.
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For me the big trouble with assalat, for not being "effective" , that is to give results, is not to understnd it as prayer or tht people are defective. Of course people are defective, they are always going to be, if people waited to be undefective they would never pray or do as-salat or do anything.
For me the problem is the collective feeling. And for those who have studied the matter as set in the Qur'an more than I, which is just about anybody here, I would like to ask them if it is stated clearly and as an obligation to do it collectively, always or as much as one can. Or is it the development of fiqh and a political "islam" what rendered it a collective duty like forming ranks to fight the oppresor.
I do not have anything against the collective aspect, provided the "collection" is adequately minded and goes in the same spirit, if not, it just like partaking in a show.
My feeling is that as-salat may be prayer or deep meditation, getting down to brass tacks of who and what one is and whose one is and what one owes to one's Rabb and God. That is praise the subject of one devotion, become conscious, for oneself, not for the public. I think anything that is not the deep introspection and devotion to Reality, to the really Existent, anything that pulls one into the worldly should be avoided. Rituals, if there are any should help to that concentration and not distract from it. And it must be sincere, however imperfect it maybe, sincere, inwards, not outwards. Otherwise we might be thinking of the fact that we are seen by the world.
I wonder in fact if masjids have not been turned in political centers where the masses can be manipulated at will, the herd kept in line. I know that historically they were centers of learning too. That would be an aspect, the other, then, like churches. The place where you get reprimanded by someone authorized to do so, when non egalitarian.
Salaam
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I think anything that is not the deep introspection and devotion to Reality, to the really Existent, anything that pulls one into the worldly should be avoided. Rituals, if there are any should help to that concentration and not distract from it. And it must be sincere, however imperfect it maybe, sincere, inwards, not outwards. Otherwise we might be thinking of the fact that we are seen by the world.
Namaz doesn't allow for the deep meditative introspection, because you have a script you must keep your mind on all the time. You must say the right words, do the right physical motions, the right number of times... and for this your brain must remain in the beta-wave frequency. Also, we cannot say that we'll end up getting so good at it that we no longer have to think about the movements. It doesn't work that way. Yes, we can go through one set of motion, like one bow, or one gear shifting in the car, or one tooth brush session, without thinking... but this works only because there is no counting required. When you totally lose yourself doing something, when you get into flow, then the time aspect disappears from your awareness, and hence you won't be able to keep track of how many times you've done something. Also, if you're in a group, you'll definitely not be able to keep up with the pace if your in a deep meditative flow. In a group, part of your mind is always on the other group members and the leader, or else people wouldn't be able to do the motions synchronically.
Additionally, I personally believe that most people are conscious about how they look during the group prayer, to some extent at least. This is because there are such strict regulations on how to hold your hands, how to bend the body, how to hold and move the index finger, how to fold the feet, how to move the head.. etc. Nobody wants to deviate from the group. This is an extremely powerful motivator for our survival brain. We'd rather die than be excommunicated (or so the survival brain feels at least). So when being conscious about this, there won't being deep state of contemplation for sure. But of course, you can get really good at the correct form, making it a habit, but I'm sure most people still have part of their mind checking it now and then. And unfortunately, I don't think people really are concerned with what Allah thinks about the physical form of their namaz, but rather they're concerned about what their fellow namaz doers would see.
At best you can execute some thoughts of genuine gratitude during the namaz, but other than that... it's mostly role play.
I think we generally need to think more about the purpose of the salat, and what effects it is supposed to have, and not get caught up in assumptions about it's form. Form is not the essence... outcome is the essence.
Peace and best regards
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Peace All.
Sometimes we try too hard with thinking, instead of reflecting and listening,when the issue is "our trial. Perhaps we need to say to GOD we "hear and obey"?
How clever are we? Who gave us our cleverness? What is the purpose of our lives?
GOD has granted us our choice to come here to this life and try and redeem ourselves. Whether we like it or not, we are being tried?
To help us HE has sent instructions/commands/scriptures and messengers to deliver HIS message.
Are we not expected to work hard to earn our salvation? Are we expecting our cleverness to save us?
GOD s system is spelled out in.
Ignoring this clear system issued by God, and hanging on our personal wishes to find all the details of our rituals in Qoran only reflects our disbelief in Qoran itself, the lack of trust in its divinity, and the lack of trust in God and His systems.
Indeed, Qoran is complete and fully detailed. Part of its complete details is the above system of inheriting our rites from Abraham.
Either we believe in it or we choose to be with those who take the word of God partially and conditionally. Do they believe in part of the scripture and ignore other parts?
GOD taught Abraham how to observe Salat, Abraham taught his children/believers... and so on...
GOD renews his message when He sees the need and the right time. He is fully aware of what was corrupted and what was not!
GOD also sends messengers to clarify for us.
Those who received the scripture rejoice in what was revealed to you; some others may reject parts of it. Say, "I am simply enjoined to worship God, and never associate any idols with Him. I invite to Him, and to Him is my ultimate destiny."
We revealed these laws in Arabic, and if you ever acquiesce to their wishes, after this knowledge has come to you, you will have no ally, nor a protector, against God.
We will deal with the dividers.
They accept the Quran only partially.
By your Lord, we will question them all,
about everything they have done.
Therefore, carry out the orders given to you, and disregard the idol worshipersGOD bless you all.
Peace. -
Namaz doesn't allow for the deep meditative introspection, because you have a script you must keep your mind on all the time. You must say the right words, do the right physical motions, the right number of times... and for this your brain must remain in the beta-wave frequency. Also, we cannot say that we'll end up getting so good at it that we no longer have to think about the movements. It doesn't work that way. Yes, we can go through one set of motion, like one bow, or one gear shifting in the car, or one tooth brush session, without thinking... but this works only because there is no counting required. When you totally lose yourself doing something, when you get into flow, then the time aspect disappears from your awareness, and hence you won't be able to keep track of how many times you've done something. Also, if you're in a group, you'll definitely not be able to keep up with the pace if your in a deep meditative flow. In a group, part of your mind is always on the other group members and the leader, or else people wouldn't be able to do the motions synchronically.
Additionally, I personally believe that most people are conscious about how they look during the group prayer, to some extent at least. This is because there are such strict regulations on how to hold your hands, how to bend the body, how to hold and move the index finger, how to fold the feet, how to move the head.. etc. Nobody wants to deviate from the group. This is an extremely powerful motivator for our survival brain. We'd rather die than be excommunicated (or so the survival brain feels at least). So when being conscious about this, there won't being deep state of contemplation for sure. But of course, you can get really good at the correct form, making it a habit, but I'm sure most people still have part of their mind checking it now and then. And unfortunately, I don't think people really are concerned with what Allah thinks about the physical form of their namaz, but rather they're concerned about what their fellow namaz doers would see.
At best you can execute some thoughts of genuine gratitude during the namaz, but other than that... it's mostly role play.
I think we generally need to think more about the purpose of the salat, and what effects it is supposed to have, and not get caught up in assumptions about it's form. Form is not the essence... outcome is the essence.
Peace and best regards
Mostly I would agree with you, but I know by experience that some rituals, properly led by someone capable can in fact make that in fact while being in a group you get all that the sister good logic has described and in a sense that I meant and then the collective is really a communion. It is not like pushing a button, but many times it works, but only where spirituality is master and above all the person who leads knows what she or he is doing, which of course must not be easy.
I usually do go to any masjid. I am not going to submit to the head covered thing and I do not want to go through disagreeable moments. I have gone through plenty of those through my life and now I do not care for that. Some women I know who are against the veil, that is against its imposition can, go through the trade in of puting a scarf to be able to mis in it. I can't and I do not want to. Worshipping God is not joining a club and comebody pointing at your way of clothing in a masjid is a spit on the Qur'an. In fact that would cofirm that I would be there to conform and not wo worship with the worshippers. That is again the club mind. You my believe and all that but here what counts is that you observe the club's etiquette.
But when I have been in places where that self conciousness about appearance was absent I have had really fulfilling momentos of communion with other people, men and women and indeed it is a great thing. But as I say it is not the most common.
Salaam
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Peace huruf,
Salat, the way as you know I understand it, might involve prayer or calling unto The Master, but it is the only part of the practice and it has a wider meaning. It is yet the desire to stay on the assembly of God and not dividing into sects and the unity with God is mandatory to keep it that way because men and women are, as you may already know, very prone to succumb to conjecture.
But if a person, possibly a cleric, was to yusallah, ie "recruit" someone to the assembly of God then they teach about the right things about the faith meaning the command, decree and judgment of God. To remain heedful of this union then we must work to keep it too thus "maintain salat" or else we may listen to the temptations of the evil one. Gathering as an assembly in a house of God is a good way of keeping the unity since we can keep focused and "on topic" and, God willing, the cleric or mumin is in close connection to God to provide wisdom.
So indirectly salat can be prayer even if the word does not imply that meaning because you will likely pray together with the assembly as you gather together as a unit. Imploring in unity on a mutual goal is probably one of the finest shows of the good of the assembly. There are examples of group prayers (who use dua) by people in the recitation who do not parrot sentences but say something as a group rather than individually. They may as well been gathered in a house of God when uttering the words.
But stereotypically reciting the same passages seem redundant and I would suspect that God is driven crazy if God would have been a man. Traditional "Muslims" recite the same chapter (alfatiah) up to 4 times as if God hears them because of their many words.
God bless you
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?How many times would you say "I love you" and words of endearment to a person you love? I think we repeat always ourselves very much when we are attached to them, when they are dear to us, when we admire them. We do repeat ourselves out of affection for the person, and it does not get boring unless one of them feel no longer the same.
So, I do not think that the trouble is repetition. The trouble is lack of concentration. Would I get tired of saying Huwa Allaho ahad, allahu samad... I do not think so, it is such a shoot of hope and certainty... Repeating like parrots may be a waste of time, but turn back to the one who cares for us and loves us... For God everything is a repetition, more than that, a repetition of hE Himself. What new can you tell Him? The last gossip about the director of the International Monetary Fund? Well I think He alikes humour, so might work...
Salaam
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Peace Jane.
GOD sends scriptures and messengers for our salvation.
How / Why/what /when/... are up to us to sort out. Also we need to sort out our priorities?
Yes, it is about what the GOD really wants and means ,not about what we want!Thanks. I am of the opinion nowadays that what we want, as in our true desires from our higher self are actually what the God wants for us; it is just sometimes we confuse our ego desire with our true desire.
Ego desire being mainly to 'fit in' with others or to somehow comfort ourselves vs. what we know deep down is best for us.
When we follow our ego desire rather than our true i.e. God's desire, then we are 'off course' and the test is to reject this and to follow our true desire again so that we are in alignment again.
I think the satan takes us away from the God by tricking us into rejecting what our true desires are...
Peace.
sun
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Peace huruf,
Well. The exact number of sets of prostration and same repetition of recitation will hardly bring more guidance than to the one that is more modest and read a simple prayer out of glorification to their Master and whose faith is very strong. God knows what is in our hearts you know.
I still feel as if they think their prayer is heard because of their many words.
It is much different if a person bursts out and repeated "I love you God, I love you God, I love you God", because that is an honest expression of that feeling at that moment.
Reading al-fatiah is actually a prayer and they read it up to four times in the same ritualistic movement as if it will come true extra much if they repeat it several times.
That they often read chapters with qul (say) command is also fascinating because they are (often) directed towards people who do not hear you when you utter those words.
I still feel it is parroting passages with not much reflection of what they actually say.
In many sectarian contexts it is further fascinating because there they seem to take the Arabic language as kind of magical that you need to recite whole Quran even if you have no clue of what it says. Then you begin taking idols other than God in my opinion.
God bless you
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Peace MoF
It is You WE worship and You WE ask for help Guide US to the straight path The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked anger or of those who are astray 15/6/7
The above verses are not meant for reciting in a lone prayer but in congregational prayer because of the plural WE and US. An alone worshiper is not the lawful representative of the whole Ummah so that he can pray on behalf of all Ummah.
Say, , "O people, if you are in doubt as to my religion - then I do not worship those which you worship besides Allah; but I worship Allah, who causes your death. And I have been commanded to be of the believers 10104
Surah Kaafirun must have been revealed after this verse
Say, "O disbelievers I do not worship what you worship Nor are you worshipers of what I worship Nor will I be a worshiper of what you worship Nor will you be worshipers of what I worship For you is your religion, and for me is my religion
A reply to the disbelievers from the prophet is said to Allah in the prayers? What nonsense.
There is great difference between We worship and I worship. We worship are the words of a congregational prayer whereas I worship are the words of an alone prayer.
Who said that WE WORSHIP
Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons "What will ye worship after me?" They said "We shall worship Thy god and the god of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac,- the one (True) Allah To Him we bow (in Islam)." 2133
The sons of Yaqoob said to their father "WE will worship thy God"
When he said to his father and his people, "What do you worship?" They said, "We worship idols and remain to them devoted 2670/71
The disbelievers replied to Abraham in one tone unanimously "We worship idols"
In the same context Surah fateha should be read by all the believers present at one place with one voice with a thorough understanding of what they mean by uttering these words. it should not be said on a casual basis or as a routine or as a ritual or as a formality.
Nobody knows who said Surah Fateha but perhaps Harun and Moses because they were HELPED and and they were GUIDED to SIRATAL MUSTAQIM
And helped them so that they became the victors And We gave them the explicit Scripture And We guided them on the SIRATAL MUSTAQIM 37116/117/118
If today's Muslim close their window of their of their brain and do not allow fresh air to enter it then the coming Muslims will go more astray than us.
Thanks
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Zulf,
I understand your concern regarding the emotional blackmail of religious groups and their clerics. But it is important to understand that no one is under any obligation to follow the Quran in the first instance "So whoever wills, let him believe. And whoever wills, let him disbelieve." (1829) Furthermore, "There is no compulsion in the dn." (2256) People are free to believe for their own benefit, and they are also free to disbelieve to their own detriment. However, if one chooses to follow the Quran then one must follow all of it, not simply the parts that appeal to one's personal fancy.
Huruf,
If we assume that (1) the remembrance of God does indeed render the hearts peaceful, and that (2) salah does indeed prevent evil doing, then a lack of peacefulness and continued evil doing are flaws of our own, and God's statements still hold true. The key is to identify and remedy the deficiencies of our own selves and not to negate the categorical statements issued by God (ى in the Quran. I also accept your argument that in congregation a person will, to some extent at least, be mindful of his peers and will therefore be deprived of wholistic devotion. I myself am guilty of that. As such I prefer to perform ?lh in solitude. Indeed, I have no choice but to perform ?lh in solitude as I know of no believers in my town. Notwithstanding this, we can be sure that Muhammad performed ?lh in congregation with the believers as is made clear in 4102.
Awwww, that's lovely
)
Thanks Jane )
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Zulf,
I understand your concern regarding the emotional blackmail of religious groups and their clerics. But it is important to understand that no one is under any obligation to follow the Quran in the first instance "So whoever wills, let him believe. And whoever wills, let him disbelieve." (1829) Furthermore, "There is no compulsion in the dn." (2256) People are free to believe for their own benefit, and they are also free to disbelieve to their own detriment. However, if one chooses to follow the Quran then one must follow all of it, not simply the parts that appeal to one's personal fancy.
Agreed.
But the issue at hand is how to follow it. People follow it in very different ways. Even those who stone people claim to follow it. Following it means following it correctly, which is not that simple... because first we have to pray for guidance, and get the prayers accepted, which also required personal purification. Following tradition is not necessarily the same as following the quran. Even the quran warns about following ancestors blindly.
Peace
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Peace Jane.
I understand you.
Also for me .when I observe salat, it is my true desire.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace uq.
I also observe salat in solitude. I have no choice either. I have not found a place where GOD Alone is served in Manchester England?.
I am mindful of the following
9107
There are those who abuse the masjid by practicing idol worship, dividing the believers, and providing comfort to those who oppose God and His messenger. They solemnly swear "Our intentions are honorable!" God bears witness that they are liars.9108
You shall never pray in such a masjid. A masjid that is established on the basis of righteousness from the first day is more worthy of your praying therein. In it, there are people who love to be purified. God loves those who purify themselves.9109
Is one who establishes his building on the basis of reverencing God and to gain His approval better, or one who establishes his building on the brink of a crumbling cliff, that falls down with him into the fire of Hell? God does not guide the transgressing people.9110
Such a building that they have established remains a source of doubt in their hearts, until their hearts are stilled. God is Omniscient, Most Wise.May be one day in the future, GOD willing?
GOD bless you.
Peace.