Good without God
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A question just occurred to me The Koran does not mention anything about people who do good deeds, but have no faith. What about people who've never read the Koran but have done good all their life? What about people who don't really have any religion but keep doing good for humanity? Will they be saved?
Yes there is a verse which says that the deeds of people without faith will be cancelled, but we're not explicitly told that all their good deeds, say saving people's lives etc. would be useless? Shouldn't all good people be saved? I come across so many people from other faiths who are so good and simple and honest. They never harmed anyone in their lives.
What will happen to them?
It's quite clear that we don't need faith to be good people. I wish the Koran said something about it....
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Peace Bookish.
Another question needs to be asked
Is the innermost of the person doing good on the outside, good inside?
You see only GOD knows? And He is just, He also knows every individual inside out
2281
Beware of the day when you are returned to God, and every soul is paid for everything it had done, without the least injustice.I, for one, have complete trust in GOD and His justice.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
What will happen to them?
God knows.
It's quite clear that we don't need faith to be good people.
Really...?
I estimate that most (or perhaps every) people who live until they reach adulthood ever have been warned to have faith in God at some points of their live, and they can decide to pay attention to these frequent/repeat warnings or not.
Personally, I think that without faith in God, then I cannot really discern whether some things are truly good or not.
To decide whether it is good or bad for some matters can be quite tricky.
For example, if I don't have faith in God, maybe I don't really understand why sex before marriage is actually not good.
If I don't have faith in God, maybe I think that honoring God is useless and perhaps I don't even care to remember Him.
Yes, perhaps in the outside I can smile, be friendly, and show "tolerance" to people who believe in God. But in my heart, I maybe think "Wow, those people are foolish, why should I believe a deity that doesn't even exist, I'm glad I don't have to be like them".
If I don't have faith in God, maybe I don't really care that I should try my best to be honest. Perhaps I will think that I can lie for some little silly matters and I don't care...
If I don't have faith in God, maybe my main focus is to have fun in this world and/or to be rich, and as long as I think that "I don't hurt anyone", then maybe I will also think that I am a good person.
If I don't have faith in God, maybe I don't understand why homosexual act is not good, and perhaps I will support gay marriage.
If I don't have faith in God, then maybe I don't have any objection when some people mock God, or in worse case, perhaps I'll also enjoy their mockeries to God.
If I don't have faith in God, maybe I will think that God is cruel and unfair, and perhaps I don't understand why He wants to control me.
If I don't have faith in God, maybe I will think that it is fun to save or collect some cute shaped amulets or lucky charms.
If I don't have faith in God, maybe I will adore some sorcery tricks and seeing them as "white magic", and maybe I don't aware that "white magic" is actually dangerous trap.
If I don't have faith in God, then maybe I can still look like a good and nice person outside, but it could be most people don't know that in my heart I have personal dislike to God.
But, praise to God, I love Him, and He teaches me to understand things which most likely I don't understand if I don't have faith in Him.
Salm.
Another question needs to be asked
Is the innermost of the person doing good on the outside, good inside?
Good question. http//3.bp.blogspot.com/--h4eLCX9klE/UZHjEBYfY2I/AAAAAAAADoo/W5bcUQjtXls/s1600/thumb-up-facebook-emoticon-like-symbol.png
Salm.
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A question just occurred to me The Koran does not mention anything about people who do good deeds, but have no faith. What about people who've never read the Koran but have done good all their life? What about people who don't really have any religion but keep doing good for humanity? Will they be saved?
Yes there is a verse which says that the deeds of people without faith will be cancelled, but we're not explicitly told that all their good deeds, say saving people's lives etc. would be useless? Shouldn't all good people be saved? I come across so many people from other faiths who are so good and simple and honest. They never harmed anyone in their lives.
What will happen to them?
It's quite clear that we don't need faith to be good people. I wish the Koran said something about it....
Which verse are you referring to? 1417? There are different ways of looking at this generally, some would argue that disbelief in God involves more than someone saying they don't believe God exists, some would put the cart before the horse and so on. If you believe that God is just, then all good people are saved...theoretically and otherwise. In real circumstances, however it's tricky to say who is and who isn't a good person or vice versa. Usually, it's a blend of high and lows. In either case, if we believe like in 440 then we don't need to worry about apparent injustice in God's court at the end of the day.
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What about people who've never read the Koran but have done good all their life?
The Koran is full with lifetime stories of those who never read the Koran but have done good all their life.
Namely; Jesus, Noah, Moses et. al.What about people who don't really have any religion but keep doing good for humanity? Will they be saved?
Jesus is an infidel of Judaism and so does his cousin John.
And during Jesus times, Christianity do not exist and so does Islam.And have you wondered what's the religion of Noah? or Adam?
Shouldn't all good people be saved? I come across so many people from other faiths who are so good and simple and honest. They never harmed anyone in their lives.
Yes they will... "faiths" / "religion" is just human invention of labeling their group, so-called 'social identity'.
What will happen to them?
They will be ok..
It's quite clear that we don't need faith to be good people. I wish the Koran said something about it....
If 'faith' = 'religion / tradition', yes good people doesn't need religion in order to be good.
The Koran contains stories of many 'infidels' (Jesus and John) and other un-religious person who lived a good life.However if all people leave their religion, their priest will be 'jobless' and 'powerless'.
That's why the 'priestly class' insist on the importance of 'religion' and they do many things in order to ensure that, including injecting verses inside the scriptures...Salam / Peace
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Salam,
The whole point of life is to redeem ourselves to God and prepare for the Day of Judgement (the Day we meet God and He questions us on everything we did). Unless your deeds are done with this purpose in mind, at the end of the day it is useless. That goes for anything you do in life, good or bad.
Just my opinion thus far.
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As-salam alaykum.
769
We only feed you for the sake of God; we do not desire from you any reward or thanks.Doing good for the love of humanity is one think, and doing good for the sake of God is indeed another.
Regards.
Obviously it is not forbidden to feel compassion and love, yes, for those we help but what is saying is that we should not expect thanks or reward from those we may help. In other ayas, precisely we are warned against being disdainful with those we help. As I read it in English it sounds to me as it is being disdainful for the needy. We cannot do that. It would be like throwing a bone to a pestering dog. We are not God, but needy brats.
I think that what is in the aya is in order to not make the indigent et al to feel indebeted to those who feed them, not to make them feel that they are shit because in fact where we are getting our reward is somewhere else.
Of course we may love human kind, and if we manage to love it it is much better for us. Love is never too much, but it can be too little many times. Prophets love humakind, the cannot do otherwise, because if they worship God they have to love what God created and gives them as their mission. I think they do not even need to be told such a thing. It is only out of love that people, saintly people can be patient, compassionate, put up with things like some mentionned in the Qur'an that would send many other people climbing up the alls, me the first.
I am afraid there are some things I just don't get. Why make conflictive love of humankind and worship of God? Where is the need for that conflict? I love dogs, at least my family dog, does that shrink the urge to worship God or the love for my children or my mirror? What is the problem?
I do not get either the need to distinguish between prophets, to what end and what purpose?
I think we have real problems, unless we want to become like byzantines and get entangled with the sex of angels and all that mental masturbation.
Salaam
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Peace huruf,
It is something like that "we can only love God if we love our neighbor".
Have faith
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To be honest the fate of good atheists is something that bothers me because the Koran does seem to indicate that their good deeds will not help them. However there are several instances of God mentioning hell but then leaving a "loophole" by saying "except those whom I choose". So perhaps the good atheists will be among those.
<b>It's quite clear that we don't need faith to be good people. I wish the Koran said something about it....</b>
While I agree that some people can be good without faith I don't believe humanity as a whole can be. Without God what is right or wrong becomes subjective. So while you can say "I think this is right/wrong" you could never say "This is right/wrong", because you are a fallible man just like me, why should I consider the same things as right or wrong as you do when you might of made a mistake in your belief? Since God makes no mistakes this option is not available to those who believe.
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This is actually simple.
If faith is not something that is very important, then, for what God sent prophets and messengers who repeatedly remind people to believe in God (to have faith in God)?
And, why they feel very uneasy/sad to see their people don't have faith in God?
Why not the prophets said something like "O my people, it's okay if you don't have faith in God, as long as you do good in your lives, then you'll be fine, don't worry, I promise."
Salm.
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Salamun Alaikum.
Before we ponder what will happen to "Good without God" people... may I humbly ask to discuss what this "Good without God" concept really is? I mean what is the basis or reason for believing good or bad even exist if we think the entire universe including us - is a massive coincidence without any purpose or reason what so ever. Is it "bad" if a falling stones hits another stone and breaks it? Then why should it be bad for one person to kill another? Why not - "Eat, drink and be merry - forget about good or bad, for who cares!" Without any God - shouldn't the sole purpose of life be "maximize your sensual pleasures during your lifetime however you can"? I mean - seriously - can someone explain this "Good without God" proposition to me?
I know that Buddhists have a framework - good karma, bad karma - but the moment you believe in karma - it means the universe has some sort of spirit beyond its physical existence that records the karma and ensures that a balance is maintained. I would say this is a form of believe in an "Impersonal God" rather than no God at all.
I have actually surveyed some of the writings by people from atheist school of thought - but couldn't find any satisfactory answer. If someone has figured this out please enlighten me - I am deeply curious about this.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
I said in previous posts, it is rare that people do not believe. Only the hardest, beastly, evil beings do not believe. That is believe in their passions or appetites as the ruler in their life and conduct. Most people believe. Whether they happen to formulate a mental concept of a God or not is not the question. They act in a certain way out of belief, otherwise they would not act so. As I also said, there are the names of God, we know they are many and are the manifestation of certain qualities that when practiced by human beings are moral qualities, they are names of good. A person who may not mentally or pholosophically formulate a belief but who with his or her actions or ommissions reflects his or her belief in charity, or compassion, or justice or truth or whicheve moral quality that person most certainly believes, is a believer. That he or she does not use the formulisms of formal religion does not change anything in her, that she or he acts out of belief. I know such persons, one can trust them and they are good, they are not faithless, but they may not formulate with their words a belief that may be emotionnally would be for them putting up a face they, intellectually would feel dishonest putting up. They do believe- They do not worship themselves or their passions or their whims, far from that.
On the other hand we all know those who always have God in their tonges and religiousness aspersed everywhere and in fact are beastly an worshippers of their own selfish image and whims.
We all know ourselves, I hope, we know where we act out of true belief, when we do it out of shame for being seen doing this or that or not doing it...
I personally do not worry that there may be injustice in God treating anybody because of their "beliefs". He knows, nothing nor anybody can cheat HIm and He knows each thing and living being completely and without anything in the shade. He is compassionate and he will not wrong a soul. Those who did an otam of good will see it, those who did an atom of wrong will see it. I doubt that they will be asked for proper religious formulas.to recite. If you were sparse with formulas but helped your neighbour out of sheer belief in you heart on helpfulness, God will be helpful.
That is what gather, God under any of His names is worshipped all the time everywhere, alhamdulillah. His imprint is in everythign and everycreature, even while we may not be conscious of it. Whever lets any of his names of beauty shine through him or her, over him or her will that light shine forever.
Salaam
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While I agree that some people can be good without faith I don't believe humanity as a whole can be. Without God what is right or wrong becomes subjective. So while you can say "I think this is right/wrong" you could never say "This is right/wrong", because you are a fallible man just like me, why should I consider the same things as right or wrong as you do when you might of made a mistake in your belief? Since God makes no mistakes this option is not available to those who believe.
Right or wrong is subjective...
That's why the guidance is related to 'reciprocity'..
One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.And the belief of God / Gods has nothing to do with being good.
The Pagan Arabs in the time of the Quran are all believer in God/Gods.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_mythologyThey have a set of rituals and codes where most of it has nothing to do with morality.
For example The women in their period are not allowed to perform any worshiping rites to any of the gods..A common pattern of all pagan religion (greek, romans, egyptians etc..), 0% morality, 100% ritual / faith in the gods.
If faith is not something that is very important, then, for what God sent prophets and messengers who repeatedly remind people to believe in God (to have faith in God)?
From the Tanakh to the Quran you shall see a pattern that the "Prophets" are there to deliver a warning type of message regarding their BEHAVIOUR.
?The experts in the law and the Pharisees sit on Moses? seat. Therefore pay attention to what they tell you and do it. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they teach. They tie up heavy loads, hard to carry, and put them on men?s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing even to lift a finger to move them. They do all their deeds to be seen by people, for they make their phylacteries wide and their tassels long. They love the place of honor at banquets and the best seats in the synagogues and elaborate greetings in the marketplaces, and to have people call them ?Rabbi.? The greatest among you will be your servant. And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."
?Woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You cross land and sea to make one convert, and when you get one, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves!"
?Watch out for the experts in the law. They like walking around in long robes and elaborate greetings in the marketplaces, and the best seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. They devour widows? property, and as a show make long prayers. These men will receive a more severe punishment.?
I know that Buddhists have a framework - good karma, bad karma - but the moment you believe in karma - it means the universe has some sort of spirit beyond its physical existence that records the karma and ensures that a balance is maintained. I would say this is a form of believe in an "Impersonal God" rather than no God at all.
I have actually surveyed some of the writings by people from atheist school of thought - but couldn't find any satisfactory answer. If someone has figured this out please enlighten me - I am deeply curious about this.
The law of Kharma contains the principle of "'reciprocity".
One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself because one shall receive the consequences of their own action.Siddharta doesn't even mention any conception of deity / god.
Yet he didn't reject it either.. he's focusing on deed which he deemed as the most important.The 'eastern traditions' are often labeled as "Dharmic religion" which means "Deed religion". (Dharma = Deed/Action in Sanskrit). That's why it's uncommon to find Buddhist or Taoist wage war / invasion for the sake of a deity.
The "Belief and Disbelief of God/Gods" can resulted in good or bad deeds..
If one belief or disbelief in God/Gods resulted in good deed (morality), then fine.. if not, then that's a problem..Salam / Peace
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The law of Kharma contains the principle of "'reciprocity".
One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself because one shall receive the consequences of their own action.Siddharta doesn't even mention any conception of deity / god.
Yet he didn't reject it either.. he's focusing on deed which he deemed as the most important.The 'eastern traditions' are often labeled as "Dharmic religion" which means "Deed religion". (Dharma = Deed/Action in Sanskrit). That's why it's uncommon to find Buddhist or Taoist wage war / invasion for the sake of a deity.
Salamun Alaikum.
Thanks for the clarification. I would take the principle of "'reciprocity" as a purely secular cooncept if it were limited to the life of the world - but as the Buddhist ideology suggest this reciprocity extends beyond one's life - and thus it indicates a spriritual world beyond the materialistic physical world we observe - that is already implying the "spirit of the universe" as a super authority.
OK, putting the Dharmic religions aside - do you have a definition of "Good deed" from a purely materialistic atheist point of view?
Regards,
Arman -
This idea begs to me the question what of those who neither believe firmly nor disbelieve ardently in the existence of the Almighty? Allah says in the Qur'an that the only matter unforgivable is the association of partners with Him, if I am not mistaken. Does this mean agnostics can potentially be forgiven? An individual who neither believes nor disbelieves does not associate partners with the Almighty, and he may not deny His existence.
I understand Allah speaks of doubters in negative tones throughout the Qur'an. In light of the verse about shirkh being the only unforgivable matter, is it plausible that agnostics can be forgiven based on their works in this life?
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Salamun Alaikum.
Before we ponder what will happen to "Good without God" people... may I humbly ask to discuss what this "Good without God" concept really is? I mean what is the basis or reason for believing good or bad even exist if we think the entire universe including us - is a massive coincidence without any purpose or reason what so ever. Is it "bad" if a falling stones hits another stone and breaks it? Then why should it be bad for one person to kill another? Why not - "Eat, drink and be merry - forget about good or bad, for who cares!" Without any God - shouldn't the sole purpose of life be "maximize your sensual pleasures during your lifetime however you can"? I mean - seriously - can someone explain this "Good without God" proposition to me?
I know that Buddhists have a framework - good karma, bad karma - but the moment you believe in karma - it means the universe has some sort of spirit beyond its physical existence that records the karma and ensures that a balance is maintained. I would say this is a form of believe in an "Impersonal God" rather than no God at all.
I have actually surveyed some of the writings by people from atheist school of thought - but couldn't find any satisfactory answer. If someone has figured this out please enlighten me - I am deeply curious about this.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanThere are extensive studies on the evolution of morality. Humans are not the only species to exhibit altruistic behavior, for example. Setting God completely aside, there are significant beneficial effects for acting with moral standards for the survival of the individual. Acting in ways beneficial to society stimulates order and peace which, in turn, increases survivability.
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There are extensive studies on the evolution of morality. Humans are not the only species to exhibit altruistic behavior, for example. Setting God completely aside, there are significant beneficial effects for acting with moral standards for the survival of the individual. Acting in ways beneficial to society stimulates order and peace which, in turn, increases survivability.
So per this concept of morality - our morality is a social obligation - live and let live? There is nothing inherently good or bad - it is all what society dictates? What if someone has lost faith on society - he no longer trusts or wishes for increased survivability - does it morally justify for him to take a gun and kill a few men for fun - before he commits suicide? Or - does it justify that he could torture an animal to death - when no body else is watching? When a society sanctions grossly wrong practices (e.g. burning of widows with the dead body of husband - practiced in part of Ancient India; or slavery; or child marriage) - what is the moral justification to challenge the society, especially when such a challenge reduces the chances of survival of the individual? Where is the moral justification for Copernicas or Socrates to sacrifice their lives for upholding the "truth"?
Best Regards,
Arman -
Thanks for the clarification. I would take the principle of "'reciprocity" as a purely secular cooncept if it were limited to the life of the world - but as the Buddhist ideology suggest this reciprocity extends beyond one's life - and thus it indicates a spriritual world beyond the materialistic physical world we observe - that is already implying the "spirit of the universe" as a super authority.
Perhaps it is, perhaps it is not..
Yet what matters the most is the deeds..OK, putting the Dharmic religions aside - do you have a definition of "Good deed" from a purely materialistic atheist point of view?
Certainly you need to ask those who claimed that they are "Materialistic Atheist" for that.
Yet it's interesting to hear out on what a "self-proclaimed-Atheist" said regarding "Good Deed".
Quotation A
"The behavior which we call morally good, selfless good deeds, has been wired into our brains by evolution. That is, people who were generous and kind to others may have survived and those who were selfish fell to the ravages of time."
-- R. DawkinsQuotation B
?Do you really mean to tell me the only reason you try to be good is to gain God's approval and reward, or to avoid his disapproval and punishment? That's not morality, that's just sucking up, apple-polishing, looking over your shoulder at the great surveillance camera in the sky, or the still small wiretap inside your head, monitoring your every move, even your every base though.?
-- R. DawkinsDawkins has a valid point on quotation A due to
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Human and some other big Primates (Bonobo, Orangutan) are among the few species on earth who has proven to possess the capability of empathy not only towards their own species yet extended to other species as well.
This hormone governs such attitude.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxytocin -
The "Canaanites scriptures" also support his hypothesis,
The most direct statement are
"Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth." (Matt 55)
"He will punish you with a painful punishment and will replace you with another people" (Q 939)
"He can remove you and bring (in your place) a new creation! And for Allah that is not hard or difficult" (Q 1419)
"among you there are some who hoard. And as for him who hoardeth, he hoardeth only from his soul. And Allah is the Rich, and ye are the poor. And if ye turn away He will exchange you for some other folk, and they will not be the likes of you."
(Q 473
Those who are kind shall survive, those who are not shall become extinct..
The survival of the nicest.
The evidence can be seen from past history as well..
Dawkin is correct on this matter.On Quotation B..
He is again correct, if one does a good deed merely to 'gain some reward', that's not 'morality', it's not 'sincere' it's basically 'sucking up to the big boss'.And again Bonobo and Orangutan is capable of doing 'good deeds' not only to their own species but to other species as well.
An Orangutan saving baby chick from drowning
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTUIfHyHQRsWhat's the religion of Orangutan?
Is Orangutan an infidel? or a believer?
The question shall baffled any priest..It's very much possible, that they are standing next inline to 'evolve further' and receiving the future mandate for "guardians of the earth", replacing their 'extinct gone evil cousin' namely human, as previously warned in the scriptures.
Salam / Peace
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