What is the Qur'ans stance on homosexuality?
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Peace runninglikezebras.
I have read you posts,and I am sure if you explain to these "translators ""2929" giving them evidence from Qoran ,they might look at your proposal?
Also if you do not mind can you clarify your take on in this thread
Thanks in advance.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I did so when I modified my previous post. I also posted this in the thread for corrections made to the FM Quran but so far no reaction.
Peace.
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Peace runninglikezebras.
Also you might need to look at other similar verses like AINNAKUM LATATUNA ALRIJALA SHAHWATAN MIN DOONI ALNISAA" etc..? Also do "Malaika " become like "Rijal" if they are sent to humans?i.e no difference to onlookers?..
For me to agree with you I need your case to fit into all the verses in Qoran?
So far you have only shown the following
-a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
- a favorable estimate
- a personal view, attitude .
You need to go beyond that to make a convincing case.
Please take this as my constructive view to help.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Greetings and Peace, all group
There is a simple explanation. Look at the word that is often translated as "spouse." It appears that "mate" or "pair" is a better translation, and these are gender neutral. Plants and livestock don't have spouses, and the same word root is used. The use of the word "their" in 7030 changes azwjan into azwjihim; the meaning is unchanged. A quick example
26 These are the ones guided by their Lord , and these are the successful ones.
Notice how the word rabbi is modified into rabbihim by the use of "their?" In this same way, azwjan is modified into azwjihim.
Also, based on 425, same-sex marriage is permitted because it is beyond what is prohibited; it is indeed possible for same-sex people to be married/spouses--so even ~if~ 7030 refers solely to spouses, it does not exclude homosexuals.
425 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of GOD over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise.
6143 Eight in from the lambs two, and from the goats two. Say "Is it the two males that He forbade or the two females, or what the wombs of the two females bore? Inform me if you are truthful!"
2053 The One who made for you the earth habitable and He made ways for you in it, and He brought down water from the sky, so We brought out with it of vegetation of all types.
3511 And GOD created you from dust, then from a seed, then He made you into . And no female becomes pregnant, nor gives birth, without His knowledge. Nor does anyone have his life extended, or his life is shortened, except in a record. This is easy for GOD.
4211 Initiator of the heavens and the earth. He created for you from among yourselves , and also for the livestock so they may multiply. There is nothing that equals Him. He is the Hearer, the Seer.
7029 And those who keep covered their private parts.
7030 Except around or those maintained by their oaths, there is no blame.
7031 Whoever seeks anything beyond this, they are the transgressors.788 And We created you in ?
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
I think you are on the right path here Abdul-Hadi. I checked some of the Quranist and Reformist translations and they all have this narrow-minded "spouse" translation in them. Your evidence for it being more likely "mate" or "pair" is very convincing.
So this offers us a challenge. The easy hadith contaminations we removed and proven to be wrong on quranic evidence slavery, polygamy, stoning, chopping of hands etc. Seems like homophobia has escaped this. I think it's not uncommon as this homophobia is very strongly culturally rooted even among quranists. We either live up to this challenge and transcend our cultural backgrounds/brainwashing OR we become another narrow-minded movement within Islam that respects all, respects human rights except those of homosexuals based on non-quranic cultural prejudice. I'm rather pessimistic about the outcome as the opposition you will face removing this last hadith influence will be enormous.
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Peace runninglikezebras.
Also you might need to look at other similar verses like AINNAKUM LATATUNA ALRIJALA SHAHWATAN MIN DOONI ALNISAA" etc..? Also do "Malaika " become like "Rijal" if they are sent to humans?i.e no difference to onlookers?..
For me to agree with you I need your case to fit into all the verses in Qoran?
So far you have only shown the following
-a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
- a favorable estimate
- a personal view, attitude .
You need to go beyond that to make a convincing case.
Please take this as my constructive view to help.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Please give me chapter and verse number so I can do some crosschecking. For the matter of "sexually" or "with desire" being absent in the original text of 2929 I do not see what I have to prove more. The word is simply not there.
I'm not offended. Though I do think you are ignoring the contextual evidence I have given you such as Luts daughters being the only Nisa (plural) anywhere mentioned in all the verses mentioning Lut. Show me how Nisa here means other women, excluding Luts daughters. Also, do you ignore why the word 'riyal' a genderless form of a group of men was picked in these verses. You ignore the contextual evidence approaching with desire has equivalent meaning to how the movement of the crowd on Lut is described. I think it's a bit unfair to say I'm only promoting a personal opinion and not giving any contextual, objective facts.
About riyal, look up the meaning of this word it means a group. It's a genderless form of men. It does not mean angels become man. Read the context of the story. They were angels disguised as men. If not angels, messengers from God. Why would riyal not fit the description of a group of angels/messengers? Please backup how this would contradict.
If the Nisa were not Luts daughters (which is very improbable there are no other Nisaa mentioned), and the riyal were not the messengers. The whole city was homosexual with no exception? Now wouldnt that be highly improbable? Furthermore it would imply, Luts offering of his two daughters has no weight at all in Gods judgment about the people of this city? That would be very surprising wouldnt it? Gods prophet offering his own two daughters to protect what is from God, does not add weight to their judgment. If you dont see how relevant that offering of daughters is in the story of Lut I'm afraid you completely misunderstand Lut as a prophet.
Also please explain to me why in the traditional translation 781 and 2929 would be making different charges. If the whole city was homosexual wouldnt it repeat what 781 does and repeat the "desire" in it? It should cause it's crucial for that interpretation.
Explain to me how the verb used for "approaching on" has any other occurence in Quran that involves sexuality. It is never used in that context in the entire Quran.
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Peace runninglikezebras.
1-I was implying verses . .........There is more where Lot is mentioned throughout Qoran. They need to be analysed in context.
2- Homosexuality needs to be defined exactly? At the moment there are different definitions in different dictionaries/books...
3- "Fahisha" and "Shahwatan"need also to be defined? etc...
To build a convincing case all these different words need to be defined and clarified so as not to leave any vague areas or contradiction in Qoran.
Thanks for enquiring .
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace
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I'm not sure if you have read all my posts because I did refer to all the occurences of Luts story. And I'm referring to their context often. My issue is not with the other verses. My issue is with the translation of 781 and 2929 specifically. If you feel the other verses contradict what I'm saying, please provide argumentation for it so we can look into it. I'm not trying to get them all re-translated. I agree with the traditional translations there.
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I dont even understand your question or it's relevance. There is no mentioning of homosexuality in Quran. Please provide me proof there is so we can discuss it.
Do you want me to translate the entire Quran to make a case or are you willing to go into a debate with concrete argumentation I can respond to?
Let me break this down real simple. About 2929 what more can I do there is no word for sexually or with desire in the entire phrase? If you think it's there, please show me.
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Peace running like zebras.
Let me give you the following example
1- Quote If the Nisa were not Luts daughters (which is very improbable there are no other Nisaa mentioned), and the riyal were not the messengers. The whole city was homosexual with no exception? Now wouldnt that be highly improbable? Furthermore it would imply, Luts offering of his two daughters has no weight at all in Gods judgment about the people of this city? That would be very surprising wouldnt it? Gods prophet offering his own two daughters to protect what is from God, does not add weight to their judgment. If you dont see how relevant that offering of daughters is in the story of Lut I'm afraid you completely misunderstand Lut as a prophet.
The "Nisa" in fits any "Nisa" ? Why not?
Also ""Rijal" of will fit any "Rajul" ? Why not?
2- For example here is one definition of Homosexuality according to one source
wikipedia.org
Homosexuality is romantic attraction, sexual attraction or sexual behavior between members of the same sex or gender.Do you agree with this?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I just wanna make fun of retards who claim that Quran isnt against homosexuality when it clearly is, it says that more than 5 times. I believe in Adam and Eve and not Adam and Steve. They are making fun of Quran, God and creation that has been attacked through mainstream media which openly promote luciferian ideology.
I believe you know how to read, right? If you know how to read, you would have understood that Bilal isn't trying to claim anything. He's simply discussing things, and seeking answers through rational inquiry and science.
Retards are those who CHOOSE not to use their minds. They choose not to engage in rational discussion. They choose not to present any evidence for their beliefs. And they choose to think they're always right.
But they love name-calling, and they love insulting others.
Need I say more? I guess you understood who the retard is here.
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Peace,
Fahisha meaning
fahisha (FA, HA, SH) meaning something ugly, abomination, immorality.
Other occurences 6151, 2169, 1224, 1224
None of them fit the explanation of homosexuality. It's a general word used for something immoral. To find out what is immoral we have to look at the whole Quran. Saying this Fahisha is proof for condemning homosexuality is for any logic mind a circular argumentation. In 1224 it is mentioned alongside transgression. Again it's a general label for immorality and does not specify what that immorality consists of. We do find evidence in Quran what this immorality can consist of such as killing children, the murder of oneself and the murder of others as in 6151. The list however does not contain homosexuality.
Shahwatan meaning
With desire, with wanting. In verse 781 we find latatna l-rijla shahwatan. Breaking it down let's look at the occurences of latatuna. Does it mean a sexual approachment or drawing to in the other occurences? 213 uses the same verb. It says "afatatna l-si'ra". "Are you drawn to magic?" "Would you be approaching magic?" Ask yourself, do people get drawn to magic in a sexual way? It's clear "latatuna" describes a fascination resulting in irresistible attraction as one would be by the appearance of angels, just like some would be drawn to magic.
- It's contextual proof. I repeated many times there is no Nisa mentioned outside Luts daughters. 781 is Gods final judgment on the people of the city and their being drawn to angels instead of Luts daughters. Why would God ignore in 781 the ultimate rejection of Luts kind offer? You cant explain 781 without including that ultimate sinful act of approaching on Angels and rejecting Luts offer. It makes no sense at all the accusation would ignore the context of what preceeds the judgment and come up with some rabbit out of the hat, a brand new accusation unmentioned before that should imply homosexuality.
Concerning the riyal, I demonstrated tatuna is not just a approachment by other occurence in Quran. It's an irresistible attraction to. What in the story of Lut could have caused such attraction on the crowd if not the angels? Are you saying all the men in that city were so remarkable they drew a crowd like magic can? If you understand the meaning of tatuna, its illogical to be drawn to all the average men in the city. That is not what tatuna means.
- Agreed.
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Peace runninglikezebras.
Thanks for your post. I think I understand up to a the point of "Yahfadu furujahum".
I have no problem with desires. I have no prejudice. I also strongly believe in "Freedom of choice".
However, Qoran has a limit when it comes to "Yahfadu Furujahum"! It applies to all believers
So in a way the translation of and becomes less important .
What is important is to try and understand our behaviour according to the limits of Qoran whoever we are if we believe
Also we have the warning if we disregard GOD s message
I hope that explains where I stand.
Thank you for the conversation.
GOD bless you.
Peace -
Peace,
I agree with the essence of your message. With one exception, I do not think "Yahfadu Furujahum" nullifies striving to get a correct translation of 2929. It contains a fabrication in translation that specifically targets a group of people with a certain sexual preference. No matter our sexual preference we should lower our gaze and try not to act only on lust. But if we keep the hadith influence in 2929 no matter if homosexuals lower their gaze and do everything right, people will still find (false) Quranic proof to judge them based on what they do with a loyal partner in mutual consent or while remaining chaste.
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If Homosexuality is the sin why all,women,chikdren,animals in the City should be punished?
When Our Messengers came to Abraham with the good news, they said "We are indeed going to destroy the people of this township for truly they are (addicted to) crime." (31) He said "But there is Lut there." They said "We know well who is there we will certainly save him and his following except his wife she is of those who lag behind!" (32) And when Our Messengers came to Lut, he was grieved on their account, and felt himself powerless (to protect) them but they said "Fear thou not nor grieve we are (here) to save thee and thy following, except thy wife she is of those who lag behind. (33) "For we are going to bring down on the people of this township a Punishment from heaven, because they have been wickedly rebellious." (34) And We have left thereof an evident Sign, for any people who (care to) understand. (35)
What is this evident sign?Some say it is the Dead Ocean.
Why this genocide?Is there something wrong with the Gens of this People to be vanished?Ponder over "...for truly they are crime....because they have been wickedly rebellious." -
Good point. It does not make sense if the essence of the accusation was homosexuality. It would make no sense destroying the whole city. It's just not possible the entire town was homosexual without exception including children, women.
Again if we look at the correct accusation, wanting the angels rejecting Luts proposal and commiting evil it starts making sense.
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Yes,this is the right accusation for the Gang of the City rushing to Lut.
1.wanting the angels
2.rejecting luts proposal
And the accusation for the City
All evil deeds
By the way Adam and his spouse after approaching to the Tree they became one of the "Thalimoun" like the People of Lut and their punisment was Exil.The other term is "Fasiq" transgessing the rule of god makes you to become one of them.Sodom is not the only place in the world were divine punishment took place for example Pompeji is a good example why the volcano covered the town,you find People mumifised in coitus. -
"Marriage in the Qur'an is nothing more than ? literally ? a contract between a man and a woman in which the man provides the woman with financial support in return for exclusive sexual access. It?s a contract that makes sex and reproduction legal in the eyes of God and legitimate in the eyes of society. Since marriage is a contract premised on vaginal intercourse and financial obligation between a man and a woman, same-sex couples could not engage in one. They could construct an arrangement for inheritance and shared property that mimicked marriage, but it would not be marriage." (Variety Jonathan AC Brown)
The moral law is defined by God - not us, and the PATTERN (each creature has it's own) as defined by God is explained in the verses below but do they include same sex relationships?
4913 "Mankind! We have created you from a male and female, and made you into peoples and tribes, so that you might come to know each other. The noblest of you in God's sight is the one who fears God most. God is all knowing and all-aware."
5345 "That He created pairs (couples, mates, spouses), male and female,"
7539 "producing from it both sexes, male and female.
923 "By Him who created the male and the female,"
2223 "Your women are a cultivation for you. So approach your cultivation as you wish towards goodness. And be aware of God and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers."
4249-50 "The kingdom of the heavens and the earth belongs to God. He creates what he wills. He gives daughters to whomever He wills, and He gives sons to whom He wills, or grants both, sons and daughters, to whoever He wills, and leaves whoever He wills infertile. He is indeed All-Knowing, Most Capable."
God has a pattern/system, and in order to be bil-mutaqna (God conscious) it is important to follow his system especially when it comes to our relationships. If you cannot, then this sign gives you the answer
2433 "Let those who cannot find someone to marry, maintain chastity until God helps you with his grace... "
This is how I understand the verses given. It is not personal toward anyone, nor am I standing in judgement.
245 "And seek help through patience and prayer, and indeed, it is difficult except for the humbly submissive "
sj
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Isn't the whole marriage and monogamy business all about 1) social stability, and 2) personal stability (practical, financial, psychological, physical...)
Not sure same sex unions is rejected here. What would be the point to reject it?
Just pondring. Not taking any particular side. -
Isn't the whole marriage and monogamy business all about 1) social stability, and 2) personal stability (practical, financial, psychological, physical...)
Not sure same sex unions is rejected here. What would be the point to reject it?
Just pondring. Not taking any particular side.The question is man and oman procure the reposition of generations. reproduction. Homosexuality does not procure anything of such trascendence. So it is for the self care of society that a frame is put on to protect reproduction. For instance a marriage of a woman past menopause is not of the same trascendence as a woman who is still reproductive.
So in fact there is not reason for the Qur'an or anybody or anything else to adopt a stand regarding personal, individual relationships. That would be a personal question and not a social question. Just like friendship, o may be it would just be a friendship.
It is the bogus social accoutrments of marriage that has made that nowadays people of same sex want ta romantic marriage. it is a cultural thing, not a real need for the society.
Salaam