4:43 No ablution for women??
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Peace all.
So I am kind of new here and have been interested to see if others have noticed this but didnt find anyone clarifying this. Maybe its an obvious thing to some but frankly I dont understand the part of 443 about sex. So if a man had sex with a woman he should take a bath before approaching salat, but the woman who had sex with him should not? Quran says to perform ablution if one had a sexual contact with a woman, it doesnt just say "had sex".
O you who believe, do not come near the contact prayer while you are intoxicated, until you know what you are saying. Nor if you have had intercourse, unless a wayfarer, until you wash. And if you are ill, or traveling, or one of you has excreted feces, or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving.
Thank you.
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Peace ikhanbay.
GOD is addressing "believers "! Men and women.
Even if one claims " lamastumu al nisah" is for men only, the above sentence does not exclude the "Women" in my opinion?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I know normally it is concluded, but on the other hand, I think the creator of Qur'an is quite ablo to speak clearly and say something concenring both sexes, because, yes it is addressed to both sexes but it does restrict that to contact with women and at any rate, according to the aya 5.6 which is similar, in fact, every time we dispose to salaat we are supposed to wash inthe way that is dtailed in that very same aya. In it it also speaks about travelers and, sick people and those that have "touched" women to substitute for sand...
Summing up I would say that we should always wash before salat, although the tradiitonal instructions admit not doing if one has not done any of the things mentioned, toilet, sex... I think evrybody is bound to wash before salaa.
In 5.6 about sex they are told to purify if they have touched women. This purify is not further explained.
From those two ayas I would conclude that we must always wash before salaat according tho the instructions therein, and that particularly not to forget in the mentionned circumstances of toilet or sex. The fact that men are meant in this connection may be because it has been more common for men to be more careless and therefore they are explicitly reminded.
So, as far as I understand it, all always must wash before prayers, but please, don't be pigs and particularly do so after such and such...
Salaam
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Peace all,
Thank you for your replies.Yes good logic I agree that because of the word "believers" this ayah addresses both sexes, but it decrees "ablution after sex" only after with contact with women which in reference to women would imply a lesbian sex (?) ???
Huruf, I totally agree with you that we should wash before salat. What you say about carelessness of men also makes sense but on the other hand because of the part about approaching women it may seem to some that quran refers to men and is only concerned about their hygiene.
Could there be a translations mistake? A deliberate sexist translation/interpretation of quran by sunni/shia sectarians to show as if quran refers only to men?
God bless you.
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Peace ikhanbay.
My understanding is that it is decreed before when the verse addressed all the believers .
What do you think " junuban" means?
GOD bless you
Peace. -
Peace good logic,
Honestly I haven't really given it much thought. I always took the popular interpretation of this word for granted, something like "dirty" I think.
Though know I see that most of the time this word is used in its other forms, it conveys the meanings of "avoid" and "distance". Maybe this word really means something else since that part of ayat speaks about passing through a way. But again what I am saying is pure speculation since I have no knowledge of arabic language or grammar.
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=4&verse=43#(4431)But, back to the topic if you will, you mean ablution after sex is decreed to everyone(men and women) in another ayat? If so, why would God specify an ablution for men after having sex with women? I dont want anyone to get me wrong I know that this is not necessary for our salvation but I have encountered many people who brought forth ayats like this to prove that quran is sexist and either addressees only men or prefers men to women.
Thank you.
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Salaam,
the last thing that it would accur to me for ordering to wash only after being with the women, ist that it is in favour of males. I would say it is rather the opposite. I do think that since everybody is required to wash, the particular mention of men is more like insistance on their hygiene indeed or forgetfulness more observable in them but not on women. Women are indeed addressed, since they are the believers, but it is only after touching women and not men that they insist.
As to junub I have studied it as much as I could and I come to the conclusion that the most likely meaning, bearing in mind where it is mentioned and that no particular way of purification is meant for it, that it is mental dispersion, having the mind on other things than salat and being unable to concentrate on salaat. To me this lack of contration is indeed a big obstacle, the washing and concentraitng in washing may be a way to withdraw focus from mental activity and so be ready for salat. I have seen it translated and ritual impurity, but I have come to the conclusion that in the Qur'an there is not such a thing a ritual impurity and certainly not anything that points to ?junub as such a thing.
The word junub in the context akes me think of a common idiom at the time of revelation that later was forgotten, because nothing is said to make it clear, and etimologically it points to "sides", as if the mind was by the sides and not in the centre, like for instance the French expression "? cot?" to mean that something is far from target, completelly off.
I must mention concerning this mentionning of the men, the work of an Indian Muslim, Ashghar Ali Engineer who died not long ago, may he rest in peace. He has done a lot for reviewing Islam and has studied the Qur'an and concluded that concerning men Qunr'an takes a "duties" outlook, concerning women it takes a rights outlook. I completely agree with that. That is why men are constantly reminded that they should do this or that, and not women. It is very useful to look at it that way because it becomes turn out to be consistent indeed.
Salaam
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Peace ikhan bay.
Ablution is two parts
Bathing/washing after "sexual activity" ablution part (1) and ablution part (2)1- Ablution part(1) bathing /washing our body/parts... and/or after going to the "toilet" can be done by everyone ,no instruction how to do it (common sense).
God has simply said bathe/wash. Or if you are travelling/ill and no water or facility is available then you can t.
My understanding of " Junuban fattaharu" means "after sexual activity ,bathe/wash yourselves".
2- Ablution part (2)has got 4 specific instructions to follow or use "Tayammum" if you are travelling /ill/...
The instruction in part (1) to bathe/wash after "sexual activity" is there for both sexes.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace all,
Good logic so after sex ablution is for both sexes? But quran says if had intercourse with a woman ??? ?
Female-Female Both should take a bath, Male-Female only male should bathe since he is the one who had intercourse with a woman? -\ ?
Looks like a woman can jump straight to salat after having sex, if she is not lesbian of course.
Forgive me if I am missing your point here, dont want to cause any annoyance.Huruf, thats an interesting interpretation of the word junub, I couldt find much about this word on the internet.
That's a riveting sentiment about quran having different outlooks, I certainly will have to think about it.
Thank you for sharing the authors name.Best Regards.
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good logic tFrom where do you get hat ittaharu is bathe. Tahharu is purify but not necessarily through physical operation. It does not state a particular action to that end apart from the igsilu.
I do not see either from where you get that junub is somethign to do with sex.
Salaam
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Peace.
That is how I understand the verse.
Other explanations for "Junuban" do not make sense to me. Because you "Purify " from what and how?
God bless .
Peace. -
Peace huruf.
I meant to give you the part of where I got bathe/wash from
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From the word " taghtassilu"?
Thanks.
Peace. -
But that is the same, you have to wash any way, because before the salaat you must wash, anyway, and I do not see that the washing is different from the washing for the prayer which must be done anyway. In 5.6 there is an imperative wash face, etc., while in 4.46 it says till you wash yourselves. It is almost parallel, you wash before prayers. In the translations they do some joggling to get the traditional canonical law for "purification", but that, as some say, must be judaism, because I cannot see it inthe Qur'an.
Regarding purification, check all the occurrences in Qur'an you will see that purification is not washing, for the purpose of prayers you may wash, but the fact that you purify does not mean that you wash. You do not purify of something but purify for something. If you purify for a certain purpose you must do whatever is necessary for that purpose, it may not be washing and mostly it is not washing. of purifies prophets, doe snot mean that prophets are not pure, but even not being impure they are purifiable because only God is aboslutely pure, I guess.
Purifying has nothing to do with religious ritual. It is something that is done for certain purpose.
Look at 2.228 the one whre they say that women cannot pray with the period. There is a purification but certainly it cannot mean to wash, since what they mean to do is have sex, how are you going to purfy for sex whn you have after to purify for prayers. The have ben caught in their ritualisation of islam in gneeral and of prayers and. lso see that junub comes right after intoxicationw here you do not know what you say, that and by the meaning and smantical connotation of the root and word I thought that most likely it was a mental or animical more than a physical condition, because in both ayas there is having sex with women mentioned apart, it would therefor be a repetition not to mention that there is no hint at all in the whole of Qur'an of junub having anything to do with that at all. It is completely made up. Nice invention, ritual impurity and go and find out what ritual impurity is.
But that is the way how islam, from a simple (opposite of complicated) and straightforward common sense conception of life was turned into ritualist mine field of harams and so forth.
Salaam
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Peace huruf.
Iam not saying "purifying" means wash.
I am saying when it goes with "Junuban" in , it means wash.
GOD has shown us in by using " "faghtassilu". This word clarifies for us it is bathe/wash.
and have the same subject-Ablution- instructions.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
The washing is provided anyway for anybody that is going to pray and in 4.43 it does say that they should not pray if they are junub but after washing, same as if they are and, intoxicated, it expliciting that they must remember, must not ommit washing, that even in their fogged or distracted mind in order to pray they must wash, wich will help clear the minds too, at least washing or water is used to bring people back tot heir senses and to clear minds when people are tired, particularly mentally tired.
In 5.6 I doubt that it is saying to those junub to wash twice, because they should have already washed by the mere fact that they are going to pray as stated at the start of the aya, and if it reminds in ase of junub, then why use a word which does not mean wash although washing theoretically may be included as a way of purifying. It must be those things which are included in purifying beyond the washing, since they are two different concepts and both are mentionned separate and clearly. In 5.6 and 4.43, if washing is required for prayers, anything that is to do with prayers in that sense will be together with washing. But besides washing there is a purify for the junub state.
The "ritual impurity" thing seems to me made up which, on top of it, if it is not said in what it consists and therefore says nothing. Unless I can see any grounds to believe something better, I do tend to think that it is talking about a mental state, because if it was physical it would indeed require washing, ok, but when purify is added to the washing, I do not think it is a repetition but that there is something more, something that, as said, I think is mental or animical, which also cannot be surprising, because the mental and animal weights very heavily in the ability to pray with real concentration.
Salaam
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Men and women are equal (in rights, et al, & before God of course), but are NOT the same!
Peace
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Peace
O you who have believed, do not approach prayer as long as you are intoxicated (not in full possession of senses) until you know what you are saying or in a state of impurity, except travelling on road, until you have washed (BATHED). And if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and find no water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and your hands . Indeed, Allah is ever Pardoning and Forgiving. 443
Without WADHU we can approach prayer. There is no mention of WADHU and MAHEEDH in the above verse. If Muslims want to add WADHU and MAHEEDH as prohibitions for SALAT then at their own risk.
They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say It is a filth/dirt, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed. And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah hath enjoined upon you. Truly Allah loves those who turn unto Him, and loves those who have a care for cleanness 2222
by the way WADHU is NOT for SALAT.
Thanks
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Peace
for 56 click below
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606811.0
Thanks
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I have looked into ocassions int he Qur'an where qawama is used and in those referring to the salaat independent of time of the day it employs qawama I think it really means to do salaat or start to do it. I cannot relzate exclusively to the morning.
Salaam