Quranic verses 18:60-83.......Plausible Fabrication?
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Pease All,
As believers, we know that the Quran is from ALLAH and both Concise and Comprehensive.
Chapter 18, verse 60 to 83 of the Quran, I find that the story of Musa with an anonymous ?wise? guy, where the prophet followed him and encountered a number of ?knowledgeable event? even to the extent of murdering a young innocent boy, degrade the purity of the Quran?
I do not know how anyone can think of but murdering a young innocent boy and claimed it is the instruction of ALLAH? There are many verses in the Quran that strictly warn of killing innocent lives except due to judicial proceedings. One particular verse which was instructed to the Israelite and since Musa was THE FIRST MESSENGER-PROPHET OF ISRAELITE, than he would surely be aware.
AQ; 0532 -Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption in the land ? it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one ? it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.
However, Musa, a Messenger-Prophet of ALLAH, followed a ?wise knowledgeable? guy who contradicted the teaching of ALLAH, but ALLAH had already sent down a Book to Musa with instruction and detailed explanation of all things! What further explanation / knowledge did Musa need? Is it not that the explanation / knowledge of ALLAH ENOUGH? The Book, the Furqan that was given to Musa, where ALLAH THE EXALTED mentions in
AQ; 06154 - Then We gave Musa the Book, making complete upon the one who did good and as a DETAILED EXPLANATION OF ALL THINGS and AS A GUIDANCE AND MERCY that perhaps in the meeting with their Lord they would believe.
And further Quranic verse which is in conjunction with the above ?
AQ; 07145 - And We wrote for him on the tablets OF ALL THINGS ? INSTRUCTION AND EXPLANATION FOR ALL THINGS, , "Take them with determination and order your people to take the best of it. I will show you the home of the defiantly disobedient."
And
AQ; 2148 - And We had already given Moses and Aaron the criterion and a beacon and a reminder for the righteous
And further, Musa, a Messenger Prophet, was to judge and protect ALLAH?s decree!
AQ; 0544 - I, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. JUDGED BY IT THE PROPHETS, those who had submitted, that is, those who were Jews, and the worshipers of the Lord and the rabbis by that with which they were entrusted of the Book of ALLAH, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear ME, and do not exchange MY verses for a small price. AND WHOEVER DOES NOT JUDGE BY WHAT ALLAH HAS REVEALED ? THEN IT IS THOSE WHO ARE THE DISBELIEVERS.
AQ; 0550 - Then is it the judgement of ignorance they desire? BUT WHO IS BETTER THAN ALLAH IN JUDGEMENT FOR A PEOPLE WHO ARE CERTAIN?
All Prophets were born leaders. That goes for Prophet Musa. They were the ones who instructed the people under their ministry and NOT the other way round. They were given the authority. As per the Quran 0379
It is not for a mortal that ALLAH should give him the BOOK and AUTHORITY and PROPHETHOOD and then he would say to the people, "Be servants to me rather than ALLAH," but , "BE WORSHIPPERS OF THE LORD BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TEACHING OF THE BOOK AND BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN STUDYING."
So, Prophet Musa who was given a Book which is an instruction, explanation for all things, a criterion, a beacon and a reminder for the righteous and in the case of him with the wise guy, one would ask questions?.
As a prophet, who should Musa believe? The words of his Lord or the words of a wise guy?
AQ; 4506 - These are the verses of ALLAH which We recite to you in truth. Then in what statement after ALLAH and His verses will they believe?
One would also ask a question after reading the said verses , would the ALMIGHTY ALLAH contradict HIS own words?
AQ; 0482 - Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from other than ALLAH, they would have found within it much contradiction.
Peace
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Peace,
With no further knowledge of the ill-deeds of the boy I know that he was not really innocent. The translation may as well be lackluster, that I am not arguing, but the son was to bring shame upon his parents. How I am not knowing, but that is what the story traditionally tells.
Be of one with God
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Peace brother,
I am not saying that it has to do with being "believer", but there is compulsion in not murdering or doing other atrocities. They are told to be stopped.
Bringing shame upon a family in "Qur'anic" sense means to perform real crimes, even if sectarian people wants us to think otherwise.
If he is to be a disbeliever
If you knew me then you would know that the believer vs disbeliever case is an invention according to me.
On a bottom line I can say that without doing any further research on the passages in question it is difficult to say what the real series of events were. It could theoretically be yet another misinterpretation where the son was already bringing shame upon his family.
Anyway, it is good that you look into these passages because I also think that it is not upright to kill a man to ease the shame on a mother and father for their unrighteous son, unless the son was not already indulging in the atrocities. If the traditional story is true that the co-traveler knew the future then it would be another case that the son perhaps "was to" perform atrocities in the future and bring shame upon his parents.
Be of one with God
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Peace Hizbullah,
As believers, we know that the Quran is from ALLAH and both Concise and Comprehensive.
True, therefore if there is a contradiction it is we who misunderstand.
Chapter 18, verse 60 to 83 of the Quran, I find that the story of Musa with an anonymous wise guy, where the prophet followed him and encountered a number of knowledgeable event even to the extent of murdering a young innocent boy, degrade the purity of the Quran?
I do not know how anyone can think of but murdering a young innocent boy and claimed it is the instruction of ALLAH? There are many verses in the Quran that strictly warn of killing innocent lives except due to judicial proceedings. One particular verse which was instructed to the Israelite and since Musa was THE FIRST MESSENGER-PROPHET OF ISRAELITE, than he would surely be aware.
One would also ask a question after reading the said verses , would the ALMIGHTY ALLAH contradict HIS own words?
The wise guy was not bound by our laws!
God bless
peace
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Are you making an assumption? Please prove he is bound by our laws.
Peace hawk99,
Assumption? No.
ALLAH is not short of words. If he is Jibril or Mikaal - , ALLAH will say so. No where in the Quran says that the wise guy is Ruuh or one of the counsellors. Everything about him is human.
We all know, ALLAH spoke direct to Musa.
AQ; 04164 - Of some messengers We have already told thee the story; of others We have not;- and to Musa ALLAH spoke direct;-
So, if there is anything to convey to Musa, ALLAH will speak to him direct or thru inspiration.
The Quran explain itself and the Quran detect by itself if there is any additional unquranic verses. This is the miracle of the Quran.
This means whatever change the people would do to the revealed Quran, whether done deliberately or not will be exposed and corrected as per ALLAH's will.
Further, ALLAH made a promise to protect HIS zikir - .
The Quran is also written in the Preserved Tablet - .
The Preserved Tablet could be somewhere in South Arabia or possibly in the hands of the Saudis. Insha ALLAH, one of these days, hopefully during my lifetime, ALLAH will reveal it.
Peace
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Salam Hizballah,
This verses especially the "the Boy killing" vers make me think like you in the past,that this Story of Musa and his companion had to be thought and compared with similiar verses.
And i came to the conclusion that it is not a "earthlyhappened" Scene where you can put the message 11 in our realm of space and time,maybe it is a Vision or dream of Musa.
The First indication is the Fish coming back to life and disappeared in to the Ocean going on with the diasappearing of "Musa's Young Companion" and the Meeting of "Musa's Wise Companion" and so on.
I have noticed some cross-comparisons with Musa's life (particularly the Boy killing Scene) and this Story but that is my opinion.
stay connected
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Peace Hizbullah,
So your contradiction/misunderstanding remains )
Abraham's guests 51/24-51/31 told him about the future and also visited Lot and told him of the future 15/61.
Mary had a visitor also And she took, in seclusion from them, a screen. Then We sent to her Our Angel,
and he represented himself to her as a well-proportioned man.My answer fits your dilemma
The wise guy was not bound by our laws!
Salam Hizballah,
And i came to the conclusion that it is not a "earthlyhappened" Scene where you can put the message 11 in our realm of space and time,maybe it is a Vision or dream of Musa.
The First indication is the Fish coming back to life and disappeared in to the Ocean going on with the diasappearing of "Musa's Young Companion" and the Meeting of "Musa's Wise Companion" and so on.
The possibility of it all being a dream is interesting and plausible, I overlooked that possibility, thanks
God bless
peace
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Salam Hizballah,
This verses especially the "the Boy killing" vers make me think like you in the past,that this Story of Musa and his companion had to be thought and compared with similiar verses.
And i came to the conclusion that it is not a "earthlyhappened" Scene where you can put the message 11 in our realm of space and time,maybe it is a Vision or dream of Musa.
The First indication is the Fish coming back to life and disappeared in to the Ocean going on with the diasappearing of "Musa's Young Companion" and the Meeting of "Musa's Wise Companion" and so on.
I have noticed some cross-comparisons with Musa's life (particularly the Boy killing Scene) and this Story but that is my opinion.
stay connected
Salam si di
Thank you for your interesting opinion.
It was my first taught. But, no offence brother, no where in the verses says that Musa was in a dream. I might have overlook but if you can provide me explanation from the Quran, it will be better. The starting point of the verse mention below,
AQ;1860 - And when Moses said to his servant, "I will not cease until I reach the junction of the two seas or continue for a long period."
it seems that Musa was very free, like as though, there is no other responsibility. The Quran Chapters 7, 11, 20, 28, you will find the stories pertaining Musa, a busy man. He had great responsibilities. His job was to release his people from bondage and so on so forth. With his responsibilities, he will have no time to carry out his adventure at all!
Salam
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So your contradiction/misunderstanding remains
Abraham's guests 51/24-51/31 told him about the future and also visited Lot and told him of the future 15/61.
Mary had a visitor also And she took, in seclusion from them, a screen. Then We sent to her Our Angel,
and he represented himself to her as a well-proportioned man.Correction. I did not make any contradiction and so is my ALLAH D
Prophet Abraham and Maryam guests were the two Ruuh sent by ALLAH. They were also messengers conveying the massage of ALLAH. Two different things. No innocent people were killed. Those that were destroyed were transgressors and before that happened they were already warned.
My answer fits your dilemma
No, it only shows that your understanding of the intricacies of the Quranic system is ZERO!
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Plausible Fabrication?
Those verses if understood correctly has the answers for you too. Think we are like Musa deciding on good or bad based on our limited knowledge. )
What are the answers.
I do not about you, but I am nothing like Musa. He is a prophet of ALLAH, a leader, he was given a Book that explain everything. What further explanation does he need. )
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Salamun Alaikum.
Many in the forum have briefly touched base on how the story relates to divine wisdom. For the benefit of those who still don?t get it, let me try to elaborate a bit.
The story of Moses and the Servant of Allah is ? per my humble understanding an allegorical story. It illustrates that - with the firm knowledge of future, the followings becomes invalid ? human rationality, human morality and human judgment.
In the beginning Moses is travelling in search for the junction of two seas (allegorically the point where human wisdom meets divine wisdom). He is travelling with a young boy who is eager to "explain away" everything. When they lost the fish the boy concludes this stange incident happened only due to trick of "Shaitan". Moses seems to agree and like many other mishaps in our life was happy to blame it on the devil. Then when Moses thought that's the answer to his query and was about to retreat - he meets the Servant of Allah.
In the story, the character ?Moses? symbolizes the height of Human Wisdom and Curiosity ? while the Servant of Allah symbolizes an agent of Allah who is executing command of Allah based on the knowledge of Allah.
The Sevant of Allah takes Moses through a series of experiences.
- The incident of putting holes in the ship shows divine wisdom is beyond human rationality
- The incident of killing the young man shows divine decision is beyond human morality
- The incident of constructing the wall without payment shows destiny operates beyond human judgement
The "moral" of the story is ? even the wisest of men would inevitably fail if he tries to evaluate the commands of Allah based on human rationality, human morality and human judgment. That?s why we should resist the temptation to question Allah?s decisions ? why did the children die ? why did this accident happen ? why is life treating me unfairly ? true wisdom lies in patience (Sabr) and appreciation (Shukr).
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salamun Alaikum.
Many in the forum have briefly touched base on how the story relates to divine wisdom. For the benefit of those who still don?t get it, let me try to elaborate a bit.
The story of Moses and the Servant of Allah is ? per my humble understanding an allegorical story. It illustrates that - with the firm knowledge of future, the followings becomes invalid ? human rationality, human morality and human judgment.
In the beginning Moses is travelling in search for the junction of two seas (allegorically the point where human wisdom meets divine wisdom). He is travelling with a young boy who is eager to "explain away" everything. When they lost the fish the boy concludes this stange incident happened only due to trick of "Shaitan". Moses seems to agree and like many other mishaps in our life was happy to blame it on the devil. Then when Moses thought that's the answer to his query and was about to retreat - he meets the Servant of Allah.
In the story, the character ?Moses? symbolizes the height of Human Wisdom and Curiosity ? while the Servant of Allah symbolizes an agent of Allah who is executing command of Allah based on the knowledge of Allah.
The Sevant of Allah takes Moses through a series of experiences.
- The incident of putting holes in the ship shows divine wisdom is beyond human rationality
- The incident of killing the young man shows divine decision is beyond human morality
- The incident of constructing the wall without payment shows destiny operates beyond human judgement
The "moral" of the story is ? even the wisest of men would inevitably fail if he tries to evaluate the commands of Allah based on human rationality, human morality and human judgment. That?s why we should resist the temptation to question Allah?s decisions ? why did the children die ? why did this accident happen ? why is life treating me unfairly ? true wisdom lies in patience (Sabr) and appreciation (Shukr).
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Armanbravo
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I agree with you Arman.
Spot on.God gives examples and allegories so we learn and heed His message.
We can question all we like, even GOD s judgements on past generation, but our knowledge is minute compared to GOD s !!!!
Abraham questioned GOD about Lot s people?What did God say to him?
Also the command of" do not kill "" comes with an exception "when justice is required".
GOD is always just.
GOD bless
Peace -
Peace upon you
Here is an article which uses quranic verses to explain who was the teacher who accompagnied Moses http//www.quran-islam.org/articles/teacher_of_moses_%28P1175%29.html. It provides revelant answers to some of the questions asked by Hizbullah.
I have found it very intersting. Please, read it.
May God guide all of us.
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Peace upon you
Here is an article which uses quranic verses to explain who was the teacher who accompagnied Moses http//www.quran-islam.org/articles/teacher_of_moses_%28P1175%29.html. It provides revelant answers to some of the questions asked by Hizbullah.
I have found it very intersting. Please, read it.
May God guide all of us.
Thank you Abdoul, it seems the article and I are in agreement.
Peace Hizbullah,
The wise guy was not bound by our laws!
Peace Hizbullah,
Abraham's guests 51/24-51/31 told him about the future and also visited Lot and told him of the future 15/61.
Mary had a visitor also And she took, in seclusion from them, a screen. Then We sent to her Our Angel,
and he represented himself to her as a well-proportioned man.My answer fits your dilemma
The possibility of it all being a dream is interesting and plausible, I overlooked that possibility, thanks
My conclusion is based on the fact that an innocent boy was killed by God's servant, and that of all of
the intricacies of life that would have to occur in order for those boys to find their treasure in the future.-
They both would live to that point.
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They would be in the area of the wall at the appointed time.
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The wall would not be destroyed to the point of revealing where the treasure was.
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Moses is the prophet, but God's servant knows some of the future and is teaching Moses wisdom!
Therefore the question becomes, "if he is human, why is he not the prophet/messenger?"
peace
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Salam Abdoul,
Thank you for the link, however, there are still somethings missing. This is my humble explanation.....
- First off, THERE IS NO SUCH THINGS AS ALLEGORY IN THE QURAN. ALLAH sent down a great manifestation, the Quran, explain HIS decrees, and reveal HIMSELF through HIS own words and wisdom. There are many verses in the Quran with explicit explanation...
These are the verses of the Book and a MANIFEST Qur'an.
And We certainly know that they say, "It is only a human being who teaches the Prophet." The tongue of the one they refer to is outlandish, and this is a MANIFEST eloquent tongue.
The Trustworthy Spirit has brought it down. Upon your heart, that you may be of the warners. In a MANIFEST eloquent tongue.
And We have not taught him poetry, nor is it meet for him. This is no less than a Reminder and a MANIFEST Qur'an.
Ask yourself, why should ALLAH sent down a Book which is to provide guidance to mankind in a form of allegory??? So that we could all guess, follow our own desire and translate the verses base on our own agenda???
- ALLAH never commits wrong doing or injustice to anyone even to an atom weight.
Indeed, ALLAH does not do injustice, as much as an atom's weight; while if there is a good deed, HE multiplies it and gives from HIMSELF a great reward. 0440
The above is an explicit explanation about ALLAH HIMSELF, HIS PRINCIPLE, HIS DECREE.
AND
...But if good comes to them, they say, "This is from ALLAH"; and if evil befalls them, they say, "This is from you." Say, "All are from ALLAH." So what is with those people that they can hardly understand any statement? 0478
ALL THINGS COME FROM ALLAH. The verse below elaborate further...
What comes to you of GOOD is from ALLAH, but what comes to you of EVIL, is from yourself. And We have sent you, , to the people as a messenger, and sufficient is ALLAH as Witness. 0479
ALL GOOD AND BAD THINGS COMES FROM ALLAH TO OUR OWN INTENTIONS, with the approval of ALLAH. We are given the faculties of intelligence, hearing and sight. We are supposed to know what is good and what is bad!
"And whatever of misfortune befalls you, it is because of what your hands have earned. And He pardons much".
The prophet Musa, accidentally killed a man from the people of Fir3aun. Let see what he has to say after the incident...
And he entered the city at a time of inattention by its people and found therein two men fighting one from his faction and one from among his enemy. And the one from his faction called for help to him against the one from his enemy, so Moses struck him and killed him. said, "THIS IS FROM WORK OF SHAITAN. INDEED, HE IS AN ENEMEY, ONE WHO MISLEADS, MANIFEST."
So the prophet Musa said that killing a man is the work of shaitan but the wise guy killed an innocent boy and said that it is the work of ALLAH???
Recently in Palestine, more than 2000 people were killed due to the Jewish aggression. Out of the 2000 or so death, more than 500 were children. Go and tell the families of these Palestinian children that they deserve to die because if they live, they will be future HAMAS, criminals, terrorists, gangsters, and that they will destroy the State of Israel. And also tell their families
?The incident of killing the children shows divine decision is beyond human morality?
And if Allah were to impose blame on the people for their wrongdoing, He would not have left upon the earth any creature, but He defers them for a specified term. And when their term has come, they will not remain behind an hour, nor will they precede . 1661
And if Allah were to impose blame on the people for what they have earned, He would not leave upon the earth any creature. But He defers them for a specified term. And when their time comes, then indeed Allah has ever been, of His servants, Seeing.
The above verses simply mean that the All Merciful ALLAH will not destroy an individual or a community as a whole, just for the sake of destroying. Only when the people rejected the message that their messengers brought to them than they will be annihilate. There will be no one to stop ALLAH. Further, ALLAH judges them justly as per the verse below.
And not would your Lord destroy the cities unjustly, if its members were likely to mend.
One would ask a question why ALLAH did not sent the wise guy to Fir3oun when he was a baby, one of the most notorious individual ever live in this world. He was a big problem to the Israelites. The Quran -
Indeed, Pharaoh exalted himself in the land and made its people into factions, oppressing a section among them, slaughtering their sons and keeping their females alive. Indeed, he was of the corrupters.
And yet even knowing what he had done, the All Merciful ALLAH, sent Musa to convey the massage...
Go, both of you, to Fir3aun. Indeed, he has transgressed. And SPEAK TO HIM WITH GENTLE SPEECH that perhaps he may be reminded or fear.?
A GENTLE REMINDER was sent to Fir3aun so that he could ponder over the message given by the messengers of ALLAH. Perhaps he will repent.
- ALLAH will never destroy anyone or community just for the sake of destroying
Indeed, ALLAH does not wrong the people at all, but it is the people who wrong themselves. 1044.
And for every nation is a messenger. SO WHEN THEIR MESSENGER COMES, IT WILL BE JUDGE BETWEEN THEM IN JUSTICE, and they will not be wronged. 1047
After the messengers conveyed the message of ALLAH. And if the people reject than will the wrath of ALLAH comes on them. One would also ask what iniquity has the boy done that he was not given the chance to live in this world? ALLAH says in the HIS Quran?
Nor was thy Lord the one to destroy a population until He had sent to its centre a messenger, rehearsing to them Our verses; nor are We going to destroy a population except when its members practice iniquity.
What has the boy done that he was brutally executed? Where is the justification?
A good example was the son of Nuh. Nuh was a Messenger-Prophet of ALLAH conveying the massage of ALLAH to his people. The son of Nuh was given the opportunity and saw manifest sign of ALLAH and yet he disobeyed. As such, he becomes one of those losers who drowned in the flood.
And Noah called to his Lord and said, "My Lord, indeed my son is of my family; and indeed, Your promise is true; and You are the most JUST OF JUDGES!"
HE said, "O Noah, indeed he is not of your family; indeed, he is work was other than righteous, so ask ME not for that about which you have no knowledge. I advise you, lest you be among the ignorant."
The son of Nuh, had done unrighteous work and ALLAH knows him better than his own father. ALLAH decreed that the son of Nuh had to go. No questions ask!
Furthermore, only after given respite, thereafter ALLAH punish those who transgressed!
If they treat thy (mission) as false, so did the Peoples before them (with their Prophets), the People of Noah, and Ad and Thamud. Those of Abraham and Lut; and the Companions of the Madyan people; and Moses was rejected. BUT I GRANTED RESPITE TO THE UNBELIEVERS AND (ONLY) AFTER THAT DID I PUNISH THEM but how (terrible) was My rejection (of them)! How many populations have We destroyed, which were given to wrong-doing! They tumbled down on their roofs. And how many wells are lying idle and neglected, and castles lofty and well-built? (2242-45)
- On a contrary, ALLAH will test mankind. This is where patience and perseverance comes in. We cannot question what has been decreed by the LORD.
And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient,
Who, when disaster strikes them, say, "Indeed we belong to ALLAH, and indeed to HIM we will return."
ALLAH did not make this world a permanent world. This is a temporary world and everything here has a time limit. When its times come it will come to an end and finish. Neither the good things of this world are forever, or the bad things eternal. We are here for a short time and we are being tested. Those who will pass this test will find an eternal world that is perfect and permanent. Those who will fail this test shall see the evil consequences of their sins and corruption. We find sickness, old age and death. There are storms, earthquakes, floods, draught and famine. There are suffering for individuals and there are those that involve a large number of people.
- Last but not least, the wise guy was human!!!
So they set out, until when they came to the people of a town, they asked its people for FOOD, but they refused to offer them hospitality?.
If the wise guy was a heavenly messenger, he would not need food. The above verse shows clearly that Musa, a prophet following some Tom, Dick or Harry in pursuit of knowledge. Was it not that Musa was taught directly from ALLAH? Was it not that Musa was given a Book that explains everything? Was Musa a Sunni or Shiite OR whatever? Following the words of man rather than the words of ALLAH?
1860-83 are nothing more than tales from the Epic of Gilgamesh!
And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet except that when he spoke , Satan threw into it . But ALLAH abolishes that which Satan throws in; then ALLAH makes precise His verses. And ALLAH is Knowing and Wise.
That is, HE may make what Satan throws in a trial for those within whose hearts is disease and those hard of heart. And indeed, the wrongdoers are in extreme dissension.