Quranic verses 18:60-83.......Plausible Fabrication?
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First off, THERE IS NO SUCH THINGS AS ALLEGORY IN THE QURAN. ALLAH sent down a great manifestation, the Quran, explain HIS decrees, and reveal HIMSELF through HIS own words and wisdom. There are many verses in the Quran with explicit explanation...
Seriously?
37 It is He who sent down the book on you. In it there are authoritative signs ? they are the leads of the book; and others are allegorical. Then as for those - in their hearts there is deflection ? so they follow whatever is allegorical of it ? seeking provocation and seeking its interpretation; But none knows its interpretation except Allah - and those deeply-rooted in knowledge ? they say, ?We have faith in it, everything is from near our Master? - but none rethinks except the men of discretion.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
A manifest Qur?an does not mean no allegory. Allegories can be manifest for those who have the eyes to read them correctly.
Ask yourself, why should ALLAH sent down a Book which is to provide guidance to mankind in a form of allegory??? So that we could all guess, follow our own desire and translate the verses base on our own agenda???
Why not ask the Qur?an?
226 Indeed Allah is not embarrassed to set forth an example of even a mosquito or something above it ? then as for those who have faith, so they know that is the truth from their Master, and as for those who repress (faith) so they say ?What does Allah intend by this example?? He deviates many with it and guides many with it, but He does not deviate with it anyone except the willfully disobedient .
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
So the prophet Musa said that killing a man is the work of shaitan but the wise guy killed an innocent boy and said that it is the work of ALLAH???
This is all the more reason to understand that this whole story is allegorical.
Recently in Palestine, more than 2000 people were killed due to the Jewish aggression. Out of the 2000 or so death, more than 500 were children. Go and tell the families of these Palestinian children that they deserve to die because if they live, they will be future HAMAS, criminals, terrorists, gangsters, and that they will destroy the State of Israel. And also tell their families
?The incident of killing the children shows divine decision is beyond human morality?
Absolutely wrong way of taking the lesson from an allegorical story. What applied for the boy killed by the slave of Allah ? does not literally apply for the children killed in Palestine. What applies is the general principle of the story ? the true reason of God?s decision about life and death is beyond our understanding. Allah owns the life of each one of us ? He gave it to us and it is He who will take it back as and when He dims it appropriate. We can neither challenge Allah?s ruling, nor can we change it.
If you want to pacify a mourning parent of a dead child ? you can do so with this very story that you are trying to refute. You can say, look when Moses and his young companion thought the fish going back to the sea they only saw the negative side of it ? they thought it was an act of devil. But if you see from the perspective of the fish ? perhaps it was a blessing that it returned to its home. Perhaps it is a blessing in disguise for your child that he/she returned to his/her home to Allah.
We have to stand up for justice in human society but we will be fool to judge Allah?s will.One would ask a question why ALLAH did not sent the wise guy to Fir3oun when he was a baby, one of the most notorious individual ever live in this world. He was a big problem to the Israelites.
NO! One should NOT ASK why Allah did this or that. That is the very essence of the story.
If the wise guy was a heavenly messenger, he would not need food.
There you nailed it! BTW did you not notice the wise guy also did not have wings ? in twos, and threes and fours ? like the angels are supposed to have? Just like the talking animals of Eshope's fables. How silly right? yay
1860-83 are nothing more than tales from the Epic of Gilgamesh!
For those who do not have the eye to read the writing between the lines and brain to distinguish guidance from non-sense ? the entire Qur?an may seem like the Epic of Gilgamesh!
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
- First off, THERE IS NO SUCH THINGS AS ALLEGORY IN THE QURAN.
That is just plain wrong. The Qur'an itself says it contains two kinds of Verses, Muhkamaat (Clear and foundational) as well as Mutashabbihaat (allegorical or ambiguous in meaning).
So the Qur'an says to hold on to the "Rope of Allah". Is there a literal Rope dangling from the sky that all of us must find and hold on to?
Obviously it is a metaphor. The Rope of Allah is the Qur'an. It is not a literal rope!
Now as for the story about Moses and the "Wise Man". Actually, the "Wise Man" was a Prophet, and his name was Khidr.
Another possibility is that Khidr was an Angel, but Allah knows best.
The story itself as mentioned in the Qur'an contains much allegory. For example, Moses was trying to reach the junction of two seas. A sea represents vastness of knowledge. This is one of the meanings of the root B-H-R "Ocean, sea, great river, great expanse of water, lake; generous person; great knowledge" (Arabic-English Dictionary of Qur'anic Usage, P. 77)
The junction of two seas therefore symbolizes Khidr, a man who combines in him abundance of two kinds of knowledge. One of those seas of knowledge is the knowledge of interpretation, the esoteric or mystic knowledge.
Now if you are a Sunni Muslim and follow the Hadith as I do, this is no problem. A Hadith says that every verse of the Qur'an has both a literal and a hidden meaning. So the literal meaning is a place where two seas of water meet, while the inner meaning is a generous person who combines in himself two types of great knowledge.
So the point is, in order to truly understand and penetrate the hidden knowledge of the Qur'an, you have to learn about the Sunnah, or the Hikmah (Wisdom) which is necessary to explain the allegories of the Qur'an.
If you reject the Sunnah and Hadith, as well as the traditional knowledge of Islamic dream interpretation, mysticism and Sufism, you will be confused and end up denying verses of the Qur'an, as the OP has done!
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Chapter 18, verse 60 to 83 of the Quran, I find that the story of Musa with an anonymous ?wise? guy, where the prophet followed him and encountered a number of ?knowledgeable event? even to the extent of murdering a young innocent boy, degrade the purity of the Quran?
I do not know how anyone can think of but murdering a young innocent boy and claimed it is the instruction of ALLAH? There are many verses in the Quran that strictly warn of killing innocent lives except due to judicial proceedings. One particular verse which was instructed to the Israelite and since Musa was THE FIRST MESSENGER-PROPHET OF ISRAELITE, than he would surely be aware.
How do you know for certain that the youth who was killed was innocent? Does the God says that the youth was innocent? The Quran informs us that Moses thought that the youth was innocent (see verse 1874 in the Quran). But Moses was not all-knowing. There is a difference between knowing that someone is innocent and guessing that someone is innocent. For all we know, the youth might have been a tyrant or a slavemaster. The Quran informs us that the youth was a transgressor and a kafir (a truth concealer/ungrateful).
Quran 1880 "And as for the youth, his parents were believers, so we were concerned that he would oppress them by his transgression and disbelief."
Quran 6151 Say "Come let me recite what your Lord has made unlawful for you that you should not set up anything with Him; and do good to your parents; and do not kill your children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; and do not come near lewdness, what is evident of it and what is subtle; and do not take the life which God has made forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend."
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Salaam.
I'd just like to point that QTL has other meanings.
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Lughatul-Qur'an, by G.A. Parwez
http//qes.no/Lughat/index.htmlhttp//qes.no/Lughat/LughatVolum-III.pdf (PDF)
QTL
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to insult, to demean (Raghib)
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to make him bend (Ibn Faris)
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to make someone incredulous so that no one gives him any thought or importance; i.e. to make him ineffective
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to make him like he was among the dead; i.e. his presence and absence will become similar
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to add water to a drink and make it less effective or potent
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Project Root List (Lane's Lexicon)
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/16_QAF.htmQTL
- render person like to one killed
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Dictionary of The Holy Quran, by M.G. Farid
https//www.alislam.org/quran/dictionary/dictionary_quran.pdf (PDF)http//ejtaal.net/aa/#hw4=883,ll=2581,ls=2,la=3527,sg=838,ha=599,br=761,pr=123,vi=288,mgf=711,mr=522,mn=1090,aan=502,kz=2075,uqq=295,ulq=1385,uqa=342,uqw=1279,umr=857,ums=724,umj=640
http//ejtaal.net/aa/img/mgf/7/mgf-0711.png
QTL
- He killed his carnal desires.
- He killed or lessened or weakened the strength of wine by mixing water with it; he mixed water with wine
- He lessened the intensity of hunger and cold.
- He humbled him completely; he rendered him like unto one killed physically, morally or spiritually.
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My take on this is that the wise man "bit the boy's head off", so to speak, in such a manner that Moses thought was unfair to the boy.The wise man then explained that he wanted the boy's parent to get a good child. This doesn't mean that the boy would be replaced with a new baby. It just means that he would change for the better.
There was no need for the boy to die. The wise man merely humbled the boy's 'ego' (nafs) with a good scolding.
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Indeed this q-t-l business has made it easy for islamophobes and islamofiendsrto crucify the Qur'an, in spite of the legitimity of giving it other meanings and other meanings being more suitable, apart of course from the aya that orders us to give it the best meaning.
So thanks for this. It is certainly a meaning that fits.
Salaam
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Pease All,
As believers, we know that the Quran is from ALLAH and both Concise and Comprehensive.
Chapter 18, verse 60 to 83 of the Quran, I find that the story of Musa with an anonymous ?wise? guy, where the prophet followed him and encountered a number of ?knowledgeable event? even to the extent of murdering a young innocent boy, degrade the purity of the Quran?
I do not know how anyone can think of but murdering a young innocent boy and claimed it is the instruction of ALLAH? There are many verses in the Quran that strictly warn of killing innocent lives except due to judicial proceedings. One particular verse which was instructed to the Israelite and since Musa was THE FIRST MESSENGER-PROPHET OF ISRAELITE, than he would surely be aware.
AQ; 0532 -Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption in the land ? it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one ? it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.
However, Musa, a Messenger-Prophet of ALLAH, followed a ?wise knowledgeable? guy who contradicted the teaching of ALLAH, but ALLAH had already sent down a Book to Musa with instruction and detailed explanation of all things! What further explanation / knowledge did Musa need? Is it not that the explanation / knowledge of ALLAH ENOUGH? The Book, the Furqan that was given to Musa, where ALLAH THE EXALTED mentions in
AQ; 06154 - Then We gave Musa the Book, making complete upon the one who did good and as a DETAILED EXPLANATION OF ALL THINGS and AS A GUIDANCE AND MERCY that perhaps in the meeting with their Lord they would believe.
And further Quranic verse which is in conjunction with the above ?
AQ; 07145 - And We wrote for him on the tablets OF ALL THINGS ? INSTRUCTION AND EXPLANATION FOR ALL THINGS, , "Take them with determination and order your people to take the best of it. I will show you the home of the defiantly disobedient."
And
AQ; 2148 - And We had already given Moses and Aaron the criterion and a beacon and a reminder for the righteous
And further, Musa, a Messenger Prophet, was to judge and protect ALLAH?s decree!
AQ; 0544 - I, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. JUDGED BY IT THE PROPHETS, those who had submitted, that is, those who were Jews, and the worshipers of the Lord and the rabbis by that with which they were entrusted of the Book of ALLAH, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear ME, and do not exchange MY verses for a small price. AND WHOEVER DOES NOT JUDGE BY WHAT ALLAH HAS REVEALED ? THEN IT IS THOSE WHO ARE THE DISBELIEVERS.
AQ; 0550 - Then is it the judgement of ignorance they desire? BUT WHO IS BETTER THAN ALLAH IN JUDGEMENT FOR A PEOPLE WHO ARE CERTAIN?
All Prophets were born leaders. That goes for Prophet Musa. They were the ones who instructed the people under their ministry and NOT the other way round. They were given the authority. As per the Quran 0379
It is not for a mortal that ALLAH should give him the BOOK and AUTHORITY and PROPHETHOOD and then he would say to the people, "Be servants to me rather than ALLAH," but , "BE WORSHIPPERS OF THE LORD BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TEACHING OF THE BOOK AND BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN STUDYING."
So, Prophet Musa who was given a Book which is an instruction, explanation for all things, a criterion, a beacon and a reminder for the righteous and in the case of him with the wise guy, one would ask questions?.
As a prophet, who should Musa believe? The words of his Lord or the words of a wise guy?
AQ; 4506 - These are the verses of ALLAH which We recite to you in truth. Then in what statement after ALLAH and His verses will they believe?
One would also ask a question after reading the said verses , would the ALMIGHTY ALLAH contradict HIS own words?
AQ; 0482 - Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from other than ALLAH, they would have found within it much contradiction.
Peace
Salaam,
Have you also considered that maybe your understaning of the verses is fabricated?
Salaam,
Bender -
There was no need for the boy to die. The wise man merely humbled the boy's 'ego' (nafs) with a good scolding.
That is indeed an interesting interpretation. I haven't studied the root Q-T-L. But I am open to the idea that the word which is derived from the root Q-T-L has other meanings than the traditional-based meaning.
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As I understand,
A boy Killed(died), A boat damaged and a wall became strong and everything happens suddenly either out of ignorance or no fault or effort of the people involved, it all happens in divine justice.
As humans we face the divine Induced events which we will be unable to find any reason or stop them from happening.The verses deals with a Prophet and a God sent angel in human form, Alkhidr has God given powers to execute God's plans(servant of God) and Moses was witnessing his actions in live.
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Qatal does not mean kill/fight but it means to do something about someone, probably help or assist as in turn someone right through your elaboration. The last poster said something about scolding.
Have faith
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- to insult, to demean (Raghib)
- to make him bend (Ibn Faris)
Correction
The QTL definition that describes "bending" was by Raghib, not Ibn Faris. Sorry I can't edit my post.
From Lughatul Qur'an
- Raghib says it also means to insult another or to make him bend.
- Ibn Faris says it basically means to insult or kill someone.