I am unsure about these...?

Seeking

It would be wrong to apply a single verse of Quran without understanding the remaining verses.

I'm finding it harder to do than I thought. -\ I have been trying to read with an open mind and to remember that I can't just pull stuff out of context, but sometimes I just cannot for the life of me see the 'bigger picture' as it were. I really hope that as I read and reread the Qu'ran, I become better at seeing what I couldn't before. )

Let's see what comes after Ayat 242-Lashing of adulterers

243 The fornicator does not marry except a fornicator or polytheist, and none marries her except a fornicator or a polytheist, and that has been made unlawful to the believers.

244 And those who accuse chaste women and then do not produce four witnesses - lash them with eighty lashes and do not accept from them testimony ever after. And those are the defiantly disobedient,

You see you cannot randomly go around telling everyone that someone you know has been violating God's command by fooling around with others. Most people won't do it in public anyways. So the lashing thing isn't a punishment that can be declared just like that. Someone here mentioned about public sex. I would like to shed light on this. Consider the 243 verse. It says the guilty marries only a fornicator or polytheist. In another thread, I mentioned of orgy festivals. This is a very common thing that occurs within pagan culture.

Here is something from ancient pagan Middle East
Ishtar, (Semiramis, widow of Nimrod, mother of Tammuz) came to be represented as the bare breasted pagan fertility goddess of the east. The original pagan festival of "Easter" was a sex orgy that celebrated the return of life via the fertility of Ishtar's conception of Tammuz. Worshipers of the Babylonian religion celebrated the conception of Tammuz on the first Sunday after the Full Moon that followed the Spring Equinox. They celebrated it by baking cakes to Ishtar, getting drunk, engaging in sex orgies and prostitution in the temple of Ishtar. Women were required to celebrate the conception of Tammuz by lying down in the temple and having sex with whoever entered. The man was required to leave her money. Babies were sacrificed in the honor of these pagan gods and their blood was consumed by the worshipers. source http//en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Hebrew_Roots/Neglected_Commandments/Idolatry/Easter

Here is a depiction of how the orgy ritual is done behind closed door now
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDvu5mXGSVc

Aleister Crowley practiced and even wrote about sex rituals. The problem is that an orgy does end up with babies born out of wedlock. But anyways, what I see now is that the two verses are highly linked to pagan orgy festivals. If you participate in one as a believer you attract the punishment. Plus you marry the pagan. I do understand that sex now is seen as very casual. But do remember that by doing it we always put ourselves at risk. At the end of the day, bodily fluid can be harmful and at the same time, a baby's life is put to destruction.

Well, that description of the pagan festival was terrifying to say the least... o The only thing that sounded partly appealing was the idea of baking cakes... I'm actually scared to click on that link!

To be honest, even before I really started thinking about God and before I read the Qu'ran, I never liked the idea of casual sex, one night stands, etc. I have friends who don't share my opinion, and I don't think less of them or try and impose my opinions on them, but I could never do it myself. Like you said, there is always risks attached to it.

Ayat 415 also has what I talked about above.

415 Those who commit unlawful sexual intercourse of your women - bring against them four from among you. And if they testify, confine the guilty women to houses until death takes them or Allah ordains for them way.

Note the four witnesses. Because our non Islamic countries have been eluding it, it is easier for many to blame the rape victims. In the 90's there was a case of a British girl who was raped by her lesbian friend. She couldn't prove the rape. Ended up losing the case. Just as a man can rape a man, a woman can rape a woman.

However, it is obvious that a time comes when someone feels he or she has committed a crime. If they say sorry you are to take away the punishment. Thats what ayat 416 says

And the two who commit it among you, dishonor them both. But if they repent and correct themselves, leave them alone. Indeed, Allah is ever Accepting of repentance and Merciful.

I feel like a lot of people kind of gloss over 416. I have seen lots of people that talk about how people will be punished for every little thing, as if God is not capable of compassion and forgiveness.

As for ayat 95 it has nothing to do with going around killing pagans. It was about self defense. Start reading from the Surah that comes before the Surah wherre this ayat is found. You will know the pure truth about it then.

Here is verse 3669
And We did not give Prophet Muhammad, knowledge of poetry, nor is it befitting for him. It is not but a message and a clear Qur'an.

Surahs have rhymes. It makes memorizing easier. Some have been even memorizing the entire Quran. At face value, it looks like a poetry book. But when you go to understand it you see lots of laws, unknown truth and history other prophets. Simply put it is not a poetry book. Prophet Muhammad didn't know how to make narrative verses. Thats what the ayat talks about.

I would love to be able to understand Arabic in order to hear the Qu'ran read in its original form. While I enjoy listening to Arabic (when I went to the mosque yesterday there was a tape playing what I assume to be recitations of the Qu'ran in Arabic, and it was beautiful to listen to!) I don't understand any of it, and so I can't hear the meaning behind the words.

Verse 4633
Do they not see that Allah , who created the heavens and earth and did not fail in their creation, is able to give life to the dead? Yes. Indeed, He is over all things competent.

Umm, I might get lashing for this, but I must still say that reincarnation does exist. But not all truly get reincarnated. I remember my sis discussed with me a verse in which Allah tells how souls of some bad people beg Allah for one last chance and when they get one in the form a second birth they end up doing the same sins they did in the previous life. If I find it I will post it here. Note that in the above verse Allah says that people already know that he can give life to the dead. So this is not about afterlife.

You're not alone in thinking that reincarnation exists. I didn't write it in my original post because I thought it might sound too 'out-there,' but I have read documented reports of reincarnation, and this ayat seems to confirm this. I don't think that everyone gets reincarnated, but God can give life to the dead, so I feel that the people claiming to have lived previous lives are telling the truth.

Verse 474
So when you meet those who disbelieve , strike necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either favor afterwards or ransom until the war lays down its burdens. That . And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them , but to test some of you by means of others. And those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds.

What is the best thing to do if your town has been destroyed by your enemy, but you capture his soldiers who came to fight you? "My God loves you" won't melt their heart. They'd still try their best to kill you. Islam strongly supports self defense over suicide. Hence you have the full right to punish those who did you bad or are on their verge to attack you.

This makes a lot more sense now. I often see this ayat taken out of context and used to represent Islam as a twisted, violent religion -\ But the idea of not attacking, but being able to defend yourself if attacked-I can definitely agree with this! I don't like violence, but if someone is trying to kill me, there is no way I am just going to stand there and let them!

My recommendation to you is to ask yourself if you are ready to convert. Don't do it because someone else around you did it. Don't do it because of some kind of seductive advertisement. Instead read the Quran and know that Islam is mainly about individualism. You are not gonna get in it the fairy tale theater where God goes around saying that he loves all while showing his true side by inflicting wars, poverty and natural calamities on earth. Islam is about reality. Everything happens for a reason. The earth has both good and bad people. You need to use your brain to think critically so you can avoid what is bad. You are not allowed to believe in a scholar without you making an effort to verify his sayings. Moments on earth are just tests.

I feel like I won't 'convert' in the traditional sense (saying shahada at the mosque,) so I will never become what is considered 'Muslim' but I feel that as I learn more and try to understand more, I will try to 'be one with God' (Brother Man of Faith's descriptions of this are beautiful, though I can never replicate the eloquence of his explanations!) I think a big problem I need to avoid is thinking that just by converting to Islam (or any religion), all the bad things in my life and all around me will magically disappear. I need to learn things for myself and to not blindly follow whatever I'm told-I need to verify it for myself.

(I do apologise for the lateness of my reply! I've been so busy lately...)

Man_of_Faith

Harmony be with you Seeking,

Actually, this reminds me of another question I had with the prohibition of pork in Islam-it says the flesh of pig can't be eaten, but then I see people saying that gelatine made from pigs, bone marrow, etc is haram as well. Maybe I'm just looking too deeply into it, but from what I understand, gelatine and bone marrow (basically, anything that's not pig meat) should be okay...?

Unfortunately I am not sure about that myself, but I refrain from anything that originates from the pig. Also some secular studies of the pig has revealed that those animals share much of human DNA to the extent that their flesh is like cannibalism due to their identical skin tissue. I have a feeling this is why the meat was forbidden in the first place before people could make scientific studies on the matter. Also I prefer a cleaner animal to eat which is not eating its own excretions or meat. Pigs eat basically anything served. I take grazing animals only to eat. That could be the commandment too beneath all that corruption in the scriptures.

We are also told not to eat an animal that has been damaged by a predator, but that is probably an ancient prevention due to the risk of infection.

I think that the commandments in the scriptures are not there simply due to a dogmatic god but because they are simply rational and wise recommendations. And I think that you become what you eat. What you eat is more important than people think.

The Jews even destroyed the meaning of the "Sabbath day". While it was meant to refrain from hoarding materials and instead reflect upon your existence for a day in a while the Jews dogmatically and without mercy prosecuted anyone who did any sort of deeds on the "Sabbath day". Jesus had a taste of that when he did good charitable deeds on the "Sabbath day". Just like him I find that if one does something absolutely unselfish and charitable you can do it at any time, even on a "Sabbath day", but the Jews thought it was because "God" rested on the seventh day, so they should do the same.

Sorry I keep using that term-I've been seeing it a lot lately as a translation of what 'Islam' means.

Do not worry, I just told you as an advice, and it is not easy because I am among the only people in the world who do argue that 'Islam' does not mean submission in any way. I think I said it, but "Be Spirit distinct thereof" means Eslam, I would say that it means when someone is living in assimilation/symbiosis with what is "God", but well you see the 100% literal translation yourself that I gave. If you add an Arabic "AL" to it then it means simply emphasized that it is ESLAM.

But the term 'submission' does seem to conjure up images of the whole 'angry old man in white robes' idea of God, doesn't it?

That is my opinion, yes. I find submission to be an unfriendly term, and particularly from an entity that lacks any kind of needs and wants, and hence something you cannot impress or manipulate except if you get assimilated in its spirit. Yet then we are not talking about some kind of emotionality, but "God" is like a 'Constancy', 'Infinitum' which is like a 'Word' that simply is, no beginning and no end. "God" simply works in judgment good vs. evil without any kind of possibility to change the fate of a soul when their soul has ended their interim. And then we talk about "spiritual charge" in terms of energy "current" and that you are judged by what you became when it is "Game Over".

I think some sect talks about something called 'Karma', that is a quite good way of measuring it. Even though you did lots of bad deeds initially in your life, perhaps your first decades of your life but then make a total turnaround and improve and grow spiritually then you may still become assimilated with what is "God" and live to see the future (Hereafter). And one must remember that on a gauge which has a middle with 0 and minus 100 and positive 100 then when a good deed is done it is moving 'plus' more than when a bad deed was taking it 'minus'. At '100' you would likely be a prophet while at somewhere at the bottom of the gauge you would be the 'Islamic Satans' (sarcasm of 'Islamic State&#039. And you shall remember that every little negative deed in the world will move the needle on the gauge downwards, so if you even snarl at someone it also moves it towards 'minus'. On the 'plus' side, if one keeps building up "Karma" then they will be able to affect the 'Foundation' more and more and I would say a person strong enough can "prophesy" due to their assimilation with what is "God". One of those will learn more of wisdom and knowledge. You just have to know what to do to grow spiritually and endless rituals will not bring you there, it is the entirely wrong track, but you find advancement in behavior and deeds and self-improvement, self-control etc. You probably already know what I am talking about.

An important point in what I am talking about is that the entity referred to as "God" does not deal in belief in any way. It is entirely the wrong track. One reason may be that there is no doubt that a "higher power" exists or otherwise you would not be able to exist. The only thing you can be is deluded that "God" exists, suppress your rationality and logic. I would say the sects' pathetic portrayal add to this phenomenon. I would like to refer to "God" as a "higher power" rather than "God", but then not all know what I am talking about. The "higher power" may intervene and be in our lives with us very literally if we reach high on the "Karma" gauge since then we are one in "God".

I'm really hoping to take Arabic classes sometime soon so I can understand this better!

You may do so, but if you do you may become deluded if you do not reflect with rationality. Do not blindly trust their knowledge, but you can hear their view on how Arabic is structured and understood, but do not take their word that they are so knowledgeable as they think.

Though the lack of vowels in written Arabic seems daunting

It is more simple than you think. The vowels are indirectly pronounced as you pronounce the letters. The sounds come as they are pronounced naturally as you know the sounds of all letters. The meaning is built around the flow of letters that the words are formed from. It is like a rhythm in that language and you dance between the letters with your mouth.

First you can do, and you can do it without taking any classes and that is to learn how to pronounce all the Arabic letters. You can always download some help from some self-study article.

Letters which can be hardest to pronounce for a foreigner are

qaaf
ghain

Because the sound comes from your throat. Qur'an is using and is not pronounced like Koran. English 'Q' has the most similar pronunciation, but it does not sound identical. When pronounced from an inexperienced mouth you can get a little aching in your throat due to not being used to produce the sound. These sounds are what makes a westerner feel Arabs sound a bit weird together with the below. Arabic does not have the "G" sound as in 'game'.

Then comes

ein
dhad

etc

But once you can pronounce all letters you can begin to comprehend and pronounce every word. Generally you just pronounce the letters in a succession and you produce the word as intended. You must remember differences, for example the sound of seen is different from saad despite both are 's' sounds. They have huge difference in innate meaning. You must retain a little of the name of the letter when you pronounce words.

But like I said, you better familiarize yourself with all Arabic letters before you proceed. I think that is the best beginning. Learn to identify and perhaps even write all letters down so you can more easily memorize how they look.

And alef just makes a hollow sound. And could be regarded as a marker for seeing that there is a long vowel, even though this is not entirely how it is. It has an important grammatical function. You can see it as a pause in your rhythm dancing with your mouth where your mouth just does not pronounce anything but just let air leave your lungs and then after 'alef' you let it "land" on the letter you pronounce next.

I'm wondering, if the meaning of Amen/Ameen is 'be thereof one' then maybe I shouldn't say it at the end of prayers?

There is absolutely no harm in that. I would say it is a little like saying "unity!".

I think it's partly a habit from when I was younger and followed Christian teachings, but when I say it, it gives me a sense of completion, and not just leaving things hanging...

If you see in the Biblical scriptures, you see that Jesus says "amen amen" at nearly everything he says. There is no worry about it, he just says that everything should be so.

I have seen the term 'kafar/kafir/kaffir' (sorry, I have no idea what the correct transliteration is, as I've seen it written as all three) a lot unfortunately, often aimed at people who questions or bring up their opinion regarding something. From context I feel like they are calling the person an infidel/non-believer, but it seems very harsh to call someone these things just for holding a different opinion...

The word, as I have been understood, means something like "deluded", but it does not translate into "disbeliever", not even close to it. However, I have thought that it may mean to say something about God which is not the right foundation, i.e. they create themselves a foundation.

239 And those who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, they are the dwellers of Hell, in it they will abide.

You see here that it is a very dogmatic god who would write something like this, but I suspect that the sentence actually says this in its original Arabic interpretation

And those who corrupt and deny Our revelations, they are the dwellers of Hell, in it they will abide.

You see a continuation here where I find "disbelief" to fit only the image you gave about an angry old man who is dogmatic

241 And be united in what I have sent down, authenticating what is with you, and do not be the first to corrupt it! And do not purchase with My revelations a cheap gain, and of Me you shall be aware.
242 And do not confound the truth with falsehood, nor keep the truth secret while you know.

244 Do you exhort the people to do good, but forget yourselves, while you are conveying the Decree? Do you not comprehend?

You see what I am hinting at?

285 But then here you are killing each other and expelling a group of you from their homes; you act towards them with evil and animosity. And if they come to you as prisoners, you ransom them while it was unlawful for you to expel them! Are you united in part of the Decree and corrupt/distort part? The punishment for those among you who do so is humiliation in this worldly life, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be delivered to the most severe retribution. God is not unaware of what you all do.

Also the "sent down" I am reserved against. According to my late nights of investigation it refers to something else, but I have not put my tongue exactly on what it means, however salvation or something purifying. See dictionary definition for 'salvation' (source Longman - Dictionary of Contemporary English).

1 something that prevents or saves someone or something from danger, loss, or failure

Muhammad (or whoever the actor is supposed to be) was coming with salvation from The Foundation (traditionally The Lord) such as had come in the past. Literally Anzal (used to infer "sent down" in mainstream translations) means "be entity purity distinct". No wonder why my mind drifts towards "salvation", huh? The prophet came with salvation from The Lord which people were supposed to be united in and not find their own salvation.

When correcting much of the falsehood in Qur'an the scripture sounds very much like the Biblical Gospel. The be one in "God" "mumblings" of Jesus, which the Christians misinterpret to be that he meant he was a son of God, suddenly turns true.

298 ?Whoever is an enemy to God and His angels, and His messengers, and Gabriel, and Michael, then so God is the enemy to the corruptors/distorters.?
299 We have salvation to you with clear facts; only the wicked would corrupt/distort them.

I think this is one of the biggest problems with organised religion. People, both in and outside of the religion have this idea of God as some vengeful old man, so the people in the religion then criticise and judge each other very harshly, and the people outside of the religion refuse to be a part of it or be subjected to it, and therefore turn away from the idea of being spiritual or the idea of a higher power. Honestly, I am still struggling to rid myself of this image of God after having it all my life, and I am actively trying!

If "God" is the Foundation you are the Face, if you unite yourself in the salvation. We must erase that concrete "God" image.

So, each letter in Arabic has a meaning, and by combining the letters, they not only spell words, but the meaning is actually derived from the letters the word is comprised of?

Yes, it is a little bit like that, although there are only couple of dozens of letters. They are meant to "paint" mental images of what you want to say and thus what you want to relate to. Ask anyone else but me and they would say I am lost though, but that is because "I know something".

It seems a bit similar to the idea of Japanese kanji-the meaning often comes from the smaller characters that create it

Could be, I do not know that language.

(Random question Although I realise that the phrases like ameen, salaam, insha'Allah, etc are Arabic words, is it bad to use them? I don't use them in spoken conversation, but on this site, or if I message Muslims, I sometimes use salaam to greet people. I really like the sound of Arabic, I think it's a beautiful language, and although I'm not what people would consider 'Muslim,' I feel like it's okay to use them occasionally when talking to Muslims/people of God. Or is it offensive and I should stop?)

There is no harm in that although some Quranists become annoyed. Amen is not exactly an Arab-native word but exist in Aramaic/Hebrew as well and is much much older than when Qur'an was composed, and so is actually eslam/salaam too. Older generations prior to Qur'an in other regions came up to people and greeted them with "salaam" (even if I think Jews say Shaloom for some reason, but I know they often pronounce seen-words as sheen instead. May be a form of dialect).

It saddens me that some people think that it is 'modern' and 'intelligent' to insult people who are religious and/or spiritual. I've seen comments that imply that people who have faith in a higher power/s are less intelligent, and it just angers me.

Not meant as an insult, but the ritualistic and deluded into organized religion often happen to actually be less intelligent. If not, "religion" often makes one stupid, and religious people often speak against logic and reason in their conviction instead of reflecting, even though they have "brain power" to actually comprehend better. I think you are who you make yourself to be and "intelligence" is very depending on external conditions when you grew up and a whole lots of factors.

I think it comes back to the whole 'God is an angry old man in the sky' image that a lot of people have-they think that we are just obeying some 'imaginary friend' (I've seen comments stating this http//free-minds.org/forum/Smileys/default/undecided.gif ) and as a result they look down on religion and spirituality.

I am trying not to follow in the same footsteps as these people and belittle those who are deluded in the sects. In some ways 'atheists' have good points because religions often use ridiculous means of explaining what the phenomenon of "God" is. But often the conviction of 'atheists' is equally stubborn as sectarians in their way of thinking so it does not merely take a little discussion to turn them around but radiant exposure for some time. The important is to find key "thought-provokers" rather than step in the trap of 'circular reasoning', as the "We have heard that before" classic is prone to be returned to you then. One also has to find a way to define "God" rather than simply speak dogmatically about "God" being this or "God" that because they have simply that usual dull flimsy image of "God" so it is futile to meet them in an argument concerning "God" on that level. Rather speak of the "dynamics" concerning what is "God" and the background and how one can exist without this or that. You get me? Important both for those who are atheists and theists is to erase that image of "God", because it diverts people away from what is "God" in various directions.

No worries, thank you for always taking the time to reply to teach me new things and to show me new ways of looking at everything!

I have some divine drive I think to do this because I am here for your sake because I am already knowing that I need to know for salvation.

Be of one in "God"

Mazhar

I'm really hoping to take Arabic classes sometime soon so I can understand this better!

If you wish to learn only Arabic of Qur'aan it is matter of two months if you follow the pedagogical approach of Qur'aan.

Can you point out to me a text in any language of the world, comprising of about 80,000 words, which is such that we might attain the skill to identify all its words as particles, nouns and verbs in just an hour? You will never be able to answer me. However, I can tell you one such text. It is of the Grand Qur'aan. You can learn to visually identify its nouns and verbs without consulting a dictionary in an hour or so by just memorizing a dozen particles. And in another short span of time you can acquire the skill to visually recognize effortlessly all its phrases prepositional, possessive and adjectival, because the indicators are very prominent and simple for learning and retention in procedural - non declarative memory. And we know that recognizing words and clauses in context accelerates the reader's comprehension and costs less effort. This actually makes reading far more pleasurable because less work is required to understand the text.

Proclamation of Allah the Exalted Qur'aan is rendered facilitative for learning and comprehension

Seeking

Salaam Man of Faith (Sorry my replies are very sporadic and often late!)

Unfortunately I am not sure about that myself, but I refrain from anything that originates from the pig. Also some secular studies of the pig has revealed that those animals share much of human DNA to the extent that their flesh is like cannibalism due to their identical skin tissue.

I didn't know that pig DNA is so similar to ours! I've read about how similar we are to mice and other primates (and even bananas) but I'd never read about pigs. I guess it makes sense then that we shouldn't eat pigs. I'm finding it very hard to do here in Japan-so many things have pork/ham/bone marrow in them. I'm trying to avoid it as much as I can however-I've been choosing other meat options or vegetarian meals which seems to be working )

We are also told not to eat an animal that has been damaged by a predator, but that is probably an ancient prevention due to the risk of infection.

I think that the commandments in the scriptures are not there simply due to a dogmatic god but because they are simply rational and wise recommendations. And I think that you become what you eat. What you eat is more important than people think.

At first glance, a lot of the commandments seem like arbitrary rules, but the more I hear the reasoning behind it, the more I understand that they aren't just there to make life difficult, but rather the rules are there to help us. I think it's really important for me to understand the reasons behind what is written so I can follow them. Unfortunately, I am very stubborn and contrary by nature-if someone tells me I must do something, I automatically not want to do it. It's part of my personality that I am trying to change, but I do find it easier to do what I should do if I understand the reasons behind it.

Do not worry, I just told you as an advice, and it is not easy because I am among the only people in the world who do argue that 'Islam' does not mean submission in any way. I think I said it, but "Be Spirit distinct thereof" means Eslam, I would say that it means when someone is living in assimilation/symbiosis with what is "God", but well you see the 100% literal translation yourself that I gave. If you add an Arabic "AL" to it then it means simply emphasized that it is ESLAM.

That is my opinion, yes. I find submission to be an unfriendly term, and particularly from an entity that lacks any kind of needs and wants, and hence something you cannot impress or manipulate except if you get assimilated in its spirit. Yet then we are not talking about some kind of emotionality, but "God" is like a 'Constancy', 'Infinitum' which is like a 'Word' that simply is, no beginning and no end. "God" simply works in judgment good vs. evil without any kind of possibility to change the fate of a soul when their soul has ended their interim. And then we talk about "spiritual charge" in terms of energy "current" and that you are judged by what you became when it is "Game Over".

I think some sect talks about something called 'Karma', that is a quite good way of measuring it. Even though you did lots of bad deeds initially in your life, perhaps your first decades of your life but then make a total turnaround and improve and grow spiritually then you may still become assimilated with what is "God" and live to see the future (Hereafter). And one must remember that on a gauge which has a middle with 0 and minus 100 and positive 100 then when a good deed is done it is moving 'plus' more than when a bad deed was taking it 'minus'. At '100' you would likely be a prophet while at somewhere at the bottom of the gauge you would be the 'Islamic Satans' (sarcasm of 'Islamic State&#039. And you shall remember that every little negative deed in the world will move the needle on the gauge downwards, so if you even snarl at someone it also moves it towards 'minus'. On the 'plus' side, if one keeps building up "Karma" then they will be able to affect the 'Foundation' more and more and I would say a person strong enough can "prophesy" due to their assimilation with what is "God". One of those will learn more of wisdom and knowledge. You just have to know what to do to grow spiritually and endless rituals will not bring you there, it is the entirely wrong track, but you find advancement in behavior and deeds and self-improvement, self-control etc. You probably already know what I am talking about.

An important point in what I am talking about is that the entity referred to as "God" does not deal in belief in any way. It is entirely the wrong track. One reason may be that there is no doubt that a "higher power" exists or otherwise you would not be able to exist. The only thing you can be is deluded that "God" exists, suppress your rationality and logic. I would say the sects' pathetic portrayal add to this phenomenon. I would like to refer to "God" as a "higher power" rather than "God", but then not all know what I am talking about. The "higher power" may intervene and be in our lives with us very literally if we reach high on the "Karma" gauge since then we are one in "God".

I guess 'submission' could also refer to the way that we relinquish our egos and try to humble ourselves?
I think the karma description is a good way of describing it-it says in the Qu'ran that God is merciful and forgiving, so from what I understand, we should try to do good and be kind, but if we do something wrong, it won't completely cancel out every good deed we've done till then. It's a balancing act, and we should strive to outweigh our 'bad deeds' with our good ones.

I do know people who have said they believe in a higher power, but do not use the word 'God' and refer to themselves as 'spiritual' rather than 'religious.' I guess that could be a good description.

You may do so, but if you do you may become deluded if you do not reflect with rationality. Do not blindly trust their knowledge, but you can hear their view on how Arabic is structured and understood, but do not take their word that they are so knowledgeable as they think.

I thought that if I take the class, it could give me an idea of how sentences are formed and how words are written and pronounced (and I could enjoy learning a new language with others! ) ) but I could use what they teach me to learn how to read Qu'ran by myself, if I take care to not assume too much when I read. At the very least I'll hopefully be able to speak basic Arabic after taking the class (which could come in handy in the future!) but I will have to try my best not to transfer any bias from the class onto the Qu'ran.

It is more simple than you think. The vowels are indirectly pronounced as you pronounce the letters. The sounds come as they are pronounced naturally as you know the sounds of all letters. The meaning is built around the flow of letters that the words are formed from. It is like a rhythm in that language and you dance between the letters with your mouth.

First you can do, and you can do it without taking any classes and that is to learn how to pronounce all the Arabic letters. You can always download some help from some self-study article.

Letters which can be hardest to pronounce for a foreigner are

qaaf
ghain

Because the sound comes from your throat. Qur'an is using and is not pronounced like Koran. English 'Q' has the most similar pronunciation, but it does not sound identical. When pronounced from an inexperienced mouth you can get a little aching in your throat due to not being used to produce the sound. These sounds are what makes a westerner feel Arabs sound a bit weird together with the below. Arabic does not have the "G" sound as in 'game'.

Then comes

ein
dhad

etc

But once you can pronounce all letters you can begin to comprehend and pronounce every word. Generally you just pronounce the letters in a succession and you produce the word as intended. You must remember differences, for example the sound of seen is different from saad despite both are 's' sounds. They have huge difference in innate meaning. You must retain a little of the name of the letter when you pronounce words.

But like I said, you better familiarize yourself with all Arabic letters before you proceed. I think that is the best beginning. Learn to identify and perhaps even write all letters down so you can more easily memorize how they look.

And alef just makes a hollow sound. And could be regarded as a marker for seeing that there is a long vowel, even though this is not entirely how it is. It has an important grammatical function. You can see it as a pause in your rhythm dancing with your mouth where your mouth just does not pronounce anything but just let air leave your lungs and then after 'alef' you let it "land" on the letter you pronounce next.

The pronunciation I think is the going to be the hardest part for me. I'm not very good with sounds that come from the throat (like the occasional 'kh' sound in Indonesian) but if I can hear someone say it, it helps me imitate it better. I might look up some self-study information like you suggested on the internet-they have books on Arabic in the book shops here, but as Japanese has a very limited amount of sounds, the book's pronunciation guides are often hard to understand.

There is absolutely no harm in that. I would say it is a little like saying "unity!".

If you see in the Biblical scriptures, you see that Jesus says "amen amen" at nearly everything he says. There is no worry about it, he just says that everything should be so.

I guess I'll keep saying it then! I don't know why, but it definitely helps me when I pray to finish what I'm saying-I feel like it acts as a sign to me to say that I've finished praying.

The word, as I have been understood, means something like "deluded", but it does not translate into "disbeliever", not even close to it. However, I have thought that it may mean to say something about God which is not the right foundation, i.e. they create themselves a foundation.

239 And those who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, they are the dwellers of Hell, in it they will abide.

You see here that it is a very dogmatic god who would write something like this, but I suspect that the sentence actually says this in its original Arabic interpretation

And those who corrupt and deny Our revelations, they are the dwellers of Hell, in it they will abide.

You see a continuation here where I find "disbelief" to fit only the image you gave about an angry old man who is dogmatic

241 And be united in what I have sent down, authenticating what is with you, and do not be the first to corrupt it! And do not purchase with My revelations a cheap gain, and of Me you shall be aware.
242 And do not confound the truth with falsehood, nor keep the truth secret while you know.

244 Do you exhort the people to do good, but forget yourselves, while you are conveying the Decree? Do you not comprehend?

You see what I am hinting at?

285 But then here you are killing each other and expelling a group of you from their homes; you act towards them with evil and animosity. And if they come to you as prisoners, you ransom them while it was unlawful for you to expel them! Are you united in part of the Decree and corrupt/distort part? The punishment for those among you who do so is humiliation in this worldly life, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be delivered to the most severe retribution. God is not unaware of what you all do.

Also the "sent down" I am reserved against. According to my late nights of investigation it refers to something else, but I have not put my tongue exactly on what it means, however salvation or something purifying. See dictionary definition for 'salvation' (source Longman - Dictionary of Contemporary English).

1 something that prevents or saves someone or something from danger, loss, or failure

Muhammad (or whoever the actor is supposed to be) was coming with salvation from The Foundation (traditionally The Lord) such as had come in the past. Literally Anzal (used to infer "sent down" in mainstream translations) means "be entity purity distinct". No wonder why my mind drifts towards "salvation", huh? The prophet came with salvation from The Lord which people were supposed to be united in and not find their own salvation.

When correcting much of the falsehood in Qur'an the scripture sounds very much like the Biblical Gospel. The be one in "God" "mumblings" of Jesus, which the Christians misinterpret to be that he meant he was a son of God, suddenly turns true.

298 ?Whoever is an enemy to God and His angels, and His messengers, and Gabriel, and Michael, then so God is the enemy to the corruptors/distorters.?
299 We have salvation to you with clear facts; only the wicked would corrupt/distort them.

If "God" is the Foundation you are the Face, if you unite yourself in the salvation. We must erase that concrete "God" image.

When you write the ayats like this, they make a lot more sense and the idea of 'becoming one with God' is a lot clearer.

There is no harm in that although some Quranists become annoyed. Amen is not exactly an Arab-native word but exist in Aramaic/Hebrew as well and is much much older than when Qur'an was composed, and so is actually eslam/salaam too.

Hmmm, maybe I should just stick with salaam when talking with people, but avoid the other Arabic phrases.

Not meant as an insult, but the ritualistic and deluded into organized religion often happen to actually be less intelligent. If not, "religion" often makes one stupid, and religious people often speak against logic and reason in their conviction instead of reflecting, even though they have "brain power" to actually comprehend better. I think you are who you make yourself to be and "intelligence" is very depending on external conditions when you grew up and a whole lots of factors.

That is true, but I meant people who, if they ask you if you believe in God/higher power and you answer with 'yes,' then they respond with 'how can you believe in something so stupid? Anyone intelligent could see that there isn't anything out there.' They immediately insult and look down on people who do not share their views. Then again, it does happen the other way too-some people who see themselves as religious will insult atheists or people of different religions and say that they are stupid for not being able to see that God exists, yet they are unwilling to explore different opinions or views themselves.

I guess that's another reason why I started wanting to learn more when I read the Qu'ran-after reading it and seeing how we are actually encouraged to ask questions and to think for ourselves, it was definitely a change from the typical 'follow these rules or else' attitude I was used to from religion.

I am trying not to follow in the same footsteps as these people and belittle those who are deluded in the sects. In some ways 'atheists' have good points because religions often use ridiculous means of explaining what the phenomenon of "God" is. But often the conviction of 'atheists' is equally stubborn as sectarians in their way of thinking so it does not merely take a little discussion to turn them around but radiant exposure for some time. The important is to find key "thought-provokers" rather than step in the trap of 'circular reasoning', as the "We have heard that before" classic is prone to be returned to you then. One also has to find a way to define "God" rather than simply speak dogmatically about "God" being this or "God" that because they have simply that usual dull flimsy image of "God" so it is futile to meet them in an argument concerning "God" on that level. Rather speak of the "dynamics" concerning what is "God" and the background and how one can exist without this or that. You get me? Important both for those who are atheists and theists is to erase that image of "God", because it diverts people away from what is "God" in various directions.

I guess one thing I need to be aware of is how I talk with people who are sectarian. For them, they truly believe they are doing the right thing, and that I am the deluded one. I need to learn as much as I can, and to figure out exactly what I understand, but still treat others with respect without following what I know to be wrong.

Seeking

If you wish to learn only Arabic of Qur'aan it is matter of two months if you follow the pedagogical approach of Qur'aan.

Can you point out to me a text in any language of the world, comprising of about 80,000 words, which is such that we might attain the skill to identify all its words as particles, nouns and verbs in just an hour? You will never be able to answer me. However, I can tell you one such text. It is of the Grand Qur'aan. You can learn to visually identify its nouns and verbs without consulting a dictionary in an hour or so by just memorizing a dozen particles. And in another short span of time you can acquire the skill to visually recognize effortlessly all its phrases prepositional, possessive and adjectival, because the indicators are very prominent and simple for learning and retention in procedural - non declarative memory. And we know that recognizing words and clauses in context accelerates the reader's comprehension and costs less effort. This actually makes reading far more pleasurable because less work is required to understand the text.

Proclamation of Allah the Exalted Qur'aan is rendered facilitative for learning and comprehension

I would be very happy if I could learn to read the Qu'ran in the original Arabic in two months!
I'm not very good at learning languages purely through reading and writing, but I guess if I work on recognising letters and then individual words, I could always try and research pronunciation as well so I learn how to read aloud. I still find it amazing that despite how much time has passed, the Qu'ran has remained largely unaltered, therefore the message has been protected for us to study and read it.

Armanaziz

I didn't know that pig DNA is so similar to ours! I've read about how similar we are to mice and other primates (and even bananas) but I'd never read about pigs. I guess it makes sense then that we shouldn't eat pigs. I'm finding it very hard to do here in Japan-so many things have pork/ham/bone marrow in them. I'm trying to avoid it as much as I can however-I've been choosing other meat options or vegetarian meals which seems to be working )

Salamun Alaikum.

I would just like to make a small "side-note" on the question of whether the fat, bones etc. of pig are haram per Qur'an.

Please consider the following

Qur'an mentions specific food restrictions in 4 places and in each instance it particularly mentioned "flesh of swine" (lahmal khinjeer). We need to ponder if the intension is to prohibit the entire pig why Qur'an is so particular about the word "flesh (lahm)".
In 6146 Qur'an mentions certain types of fat of cows and sheep were prohibited for a certain group. This makes clear two things - a) food prohibition can apply on part of animal; "if part of it is haram, all is haram" - is a false assumption. and b) In Quranic language fat (shuhum) is separate from flesh (lahm).
Qur'an has repeatedly prohibited extending the boundaries of haram and halal beyond what is explicitly mandated in Qur'an.

In light of the above, it is my understanding that only the ?flesh of the swine? is supposed to be prohibited (haram). Refraining from consumption of other parts of pork for personal choice or health concern is absolutely understandable but we should not promote such items as haram. If we become guilty of making the religion (millat) more difficult than Qur?an means to make it ? we may be susceptible to a greater sin.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Seeking

Salamun Alaikum.

I would just like to make a small "side-note" on the question of whether the fat, bones etc. of pig are haram per Qur'an.

Please consider the following

Qur'an mentions specific food restrictions in 4 places and in each instance it particularly mentioned "flesh of swine" (lahmal khinjeer). We need to ponder if the intension is to prohibit the entire pig why Qur'an is so particular about the word "flesh (lahm)".
In 6146 Qur'an mentions certain types of fat of cows and sheep were prohibited for a certain group. This makes clear two things - a) food prohibition can apply on part of animal; "if part of it is haram, all is haram" - is a false assumption. and b) In Quranic language fat (shuhum) is separate from flesh (lahm).
Qur'an has repeatedly prohibited extending the boundaries of haram and halal beyond what is explicitly mandated in Qur'an.

In light of the above, it is my understanding that only the ?flesh of the swine? is supposed to be prohibited (haram). Refraining from consumption of other parts of pork for personal choice or health concern is absolutely understandable but we should not promote such items as haram. If we become guilty of making the religion (millat) more difficult than Qur?an means to make it ? we may be susceptible to a greater sin.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Salaam Arman,

Thank you for explaining this. I was wondering if the 'everything that comes from pigs is haram' rule was actually in the Qu'ran or whether it may be the result of hadith or other interpretations. As it says 'flesh' in the Qu'ran, I was wondering if by eating other parts of the pig would be considered me trying to bend the rules or if it literally just means the meat of the pig and that other parts (of course excluding the blood) would be okay to eat. From your explanation, it does seem that just the flesh is prohibited.

I will keep in mind the Arabic words for flesh and fat for when I start learning Arabic-I'm trying to gather some basic words so that when I start learning Arabic, God willing, I'll have a few words as a starting point.

Thank you again!

Noon_waalqalami

Salamun Alaikum.

I would just like to make a small "side-note" on the question of whether the fat, bones etc. of pig are haram per Qur'an.

Please consider the following

Qur'an mentions specific food restrictions in 4 places and in each instance it particularly mentioned "flesh of swine" (lahmal khinjeer). We need to ponder if the intension is to prohibit the entire pig why Qur'an is so particular about the word "flesh (lahm)".
In 6146 Qur'an mentions certain types of fat of cows and sheep were prohibited for a certain group. This makes clear two things - a) food prohibition can apply on part of animal; "if part of it is haram, all is haram" - is a false assumption. and b) In Quranic language fat (shuhum) is separate from flesh (lahm).
Qur'an has repeatedly prohibited extending the boundaries of haram and halal beyond what is explicitly mandated in Qur'an.

In light of the above, it is my understanding that only the ?flesh of the swine? is supposed to be prohibited (haram). Refraining from consumption of other parts of pork for personal choice or health concern is absolutely understandable but we should not promote such items as haram. If we become guilty of making the religion (millat) more difficult than Qur?an means to make it ? we may be susceptible to a greater sin.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Peace Arman ? if using above logic then no skin or fat only meat of seafood is permissible?

596 permitted for you hunting the water/sea and food its ?

6145 say not I find in what inspired to me impermissible of on an eater who eats it except that it being dead or blood of poured forth or meat swine so surely it filthiness or debauchery of dedicated to other than the god in it so from/whom forced other than desiring and not returns so that lord your forgiver merciful

3512 and not be equal the two waters/seas this one palatable sweet pleasant drink its and this one salty bitter and from each thou eating meat of tender and thou extract ornament thou wear it and thou see the ship in it glide that may seek ye of from bounty his and that may you thanksgiving

good_logic

Peace Noon.

Don t you think that the only logic should be

If GOD has not forbidden it, then it is not forbidden. Of course the pallet gives people the choice, otherwise everything not specifically and clearly forbidden in Qoran is fine.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Noon_waalqalami

Don t you think that the only logic should be

If GOD has not forbidden it, then it is not forbidden. Of course the pallet gives people the choice, otherwise everything not specifically and clearly forbidden in Qoran is fine.

Peace good logic,

Define exactly meat swine / the donkey?

Does it not include that covers bones; fat, skin, etc.?

2259 ... and see to donkey your
... the bones how we raise it furthermore we clothe/cover it meat of

Does it not include entire fish, fat, oil, skin, etc.? Or is there such a thing as 100% meat?

1614 and he the one subjected the water/sea to eats ye of from it meat of tender

Hizbullah

Salaam Arman,

Thank you for explaining this. I was wondering if the 'everything that comes from pigs is haram' rule was actually in the Qu'ran or whether it may be the result of hadith or other interpretations. As it says 'flesh' in the Qu'ran, I was wondering if by eating other parts of the pig would be considered me trying to bend the rules or if it literally just means the meat of the pig and that other parts (of course excluding the blood) would be okay to eat. From your explanation, it does seem that just the flesh is prohibited.

I will keep in mind the Arabic words for flesh and fat for when I start learning Arabic-I'm trying to gather some basic words so that when I start learning Arabic, God willing, I'll have a few words as a starting point.

Thank you again!

Salam All,

?Verily We created man from a product of wet earth; then placed him as a drop (of seed) in a safe lodging; then We fashioned the drop into a clot, then We fashioned the clot into a little lump, then We fashioned the little lump into bones, THEN CLOTHED THE BONES WITH FLESH, and then produced it another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of Creators!?

The FATS AND SKIN ARE PART OF THE FLESH (LAHM). So when the Quran says that the flesh of khinzir (scavengers with canine tooth) are forbidden, it includes the fats and skin of the animal!

Peace

Armanaziz

Peace Arman ? if using above logic then no skin or fat only meat of seafood is permissible?

596 permitted for you hunting the water/sea and food its ?

6145 say not I find in what inspired to me impermissible of on an eater who eats it except that it being dead or blood of poured forth or meat swine so surely it filthiness or debauchery of dedicated to other than the god in it so from/whom forced other than desiring and not returns so that lord your forgiver merciful

3512 and not be equal the two waters/seas this one palatable sweet pleasant drink its and this one salty bitter and from each thou eating meat of tender and thou extract ornament thou wear it and thou see the ship in it glide that may seek ye of from bounty his and that may you thanksgiving

Salam Noon, Hizbullah

?From each you eat tender meat? ? it is absurd to take this as a statement relating to food prohibition. The verse is a comparison between salt water and fresh water ? it says nothing about ONLY the ?lahm? of fish being ?permissible?. Perhaps you are reading something in the statement which is not there.

On 2259 and 2314 ? 1) it is clear that flesh is separate from bones; b) ?We clad the bone with flesh? does not mean the bones were not clad with skin or fat NOR does it mean that fat and skin are part of flesh. If I Say ?I am wearing jeans? ? the metal zipper and buttons do not make my statement wrong. But on the other hand, if it is said ? ?you are prohibited to wear jeans at school? it will be incorrect to assume metal chains and buttons are prohibited at school as well since they are typical component of a jeans pant.

On your argument there is nothing called 100% flesh ? well, flesh also contains a small amount of blood in it, no matter how well it is cleaned. So do we have to conclude all kind of flesh is haram due to the blood component? Doesn?t this conclusion take the prohibition on blood to extreme? A vegetarian food cooked in lard or a jelly candy produced from bone has much less ?flesh? component in it (if at all), than ?halal certified? beef has blood component in it.

With regards to food prohibition from the perspective of an eater who eats, I find 6145 to be decisive and conclusive. Please pay attention to the wordings?? not I find in what inspired to me impermissible of on an eater who eats it except that..? you will see how it settles all debate.

If you want to go into details, much appreciate opening a new thread on food prohibition ? In sha Allah, I?ll be glad to provide you with my best analysis.

Regards,
Arman

Noon_waalqalami

With regards to food prohibition from the perspective of an eater who eats, I find 6145 to be decisive and conclusive. Please pay attention to the wordings?? not I find in what inspired to me impermissible of on an eater who eats it except that..? you will see how it settles all debate.

Peace Arman,

Let's stay focused (not jeans and zippers); which pig flesh parts you saying are permissible?

http//thymeforfood.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/cut-section-of-hog.jpg?w=500&h=299

6145 say not I find in what inspired to me impermissible of on an eater who eats it except that it being dead or blood of poured forth or flesh swine so surely it filthiness or debauchery of dedicated to other than the god in it so from/whom forced other than desiring and not returns so that lord your forgiver merciful

good_logic

Peace Noon.

Look Noon, GOD has defined them.

There is "Lahm" and "Shahm"

When there are derivatives from "shahm" only or other parts that are not meat , like medicines, gelatine.... Are you saying they are "Haram"?

You are confusing your definitions by looking at the mixed meat, bone and shahm , for me the majority is meat and I cannot separate them hence I stay away?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Hizbullah

Salam

ALQURAN 06155 - 157

And this is a Book We have revealed blessed, so follow it and fear Allah that you may receive mercy.

That you say, "The Book was only sent down to two groups before us, but we were of their study unaware,"

Or that you say, "If only the Book had been revealed to us, we would have been better guided than they." SO THERE HAS COME TO YOU A CLEAR EVIDENCE FROM YOUR LORD AND A GUIDANCE AND MERCY. Then who is more unjust than one who denies the verses of Allah and turns away from them? We will recompense those who turn away from Our verses with the worst of punishment for their having turned away.

The Quran is clear as crystal.

After the creation of bone, ALLAH cloth it with flesh. The verse shows clearly that the flesh consist of veins, blood, fats and skin.

BLOOD AND FLESH OF KHINZIR ARE BOTH HARAM.

"Indeed, what is forbidden to you all, THE DEAD ANIMALS AND the BLOOD AND MEAT OF KHINZIR AND WHAT DEDICATED TO OTHER THAN ALLAH. If one is forced (to eat these), without being malicious or deliberate, he incurs no sin. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful." 2173

BLOOD THAT IS SPILLED OUT IS HARAM

Say, "I do not find within that which was revealed to me forbidden to one who would eat it unless it be a DEAD ANIMAL OR BLOOD SPILLED OUT OR THE FLESH OF KHINZIR - FOR INDEED IT IS IMPURE OR IT BE THAT SLAUGHTERED IN DEDICATION TO OTHER THAN ALLAH. But whoever is forced, neither desiring nor transgressing, then indeed, your Lord is Forgiving and Merciful." 06145

hawk99

Peace,

Interesting topic, I agree that we are not to eat the pig, but what about making a brush from pig hair,
or hair products, or gelatin capsules, skin creams or medicines, these things are no longer in a fleshy state,
are they still haram?

As for those who say, "if it's not flesh you can eat it", I wonder how many actually do eat pig fat or skin
or are they just making a hypothetical argument?

God bless you

peace

Noon_waalqalami

... for me the majority is meat and I cannot separate them hence I stay away?

Peace -- good logic!

Interesting topic, I agree that we are not to eat the pig, but what about making a brush from pig hair,
or hair products, or gelatin capsules, skin creams or medicines, these things are no longer in a fleshy state,
are they still haram?

Peace hawk99 -- not prohibited are clothes, pets, bladder footballs, brushes, etc., and prohibited is as exactly stated knowingly eating its flesh; medicine products or consumption due to hunger has an exception clause...

so from/whom forced other than desires and not returns/repeats so not harm on said person surely the god forgiver merciful

Neptin

Those who cannot differentiate meat from fat should look at Qur'an 6146. Pig meat is distinct from pig oil.

Noon_waalqalami

Those who cannot differentiate meat from fat should look at Qur'an 6146. Pig meat is distinct from pig oil

Peace Neptin -- lahma includes "all flesh" so there's nothing to differentiate...
6146 shuhmahum/fat theirs... or al-hawy/the intestines or what joined with the bone

1614 and he the one subjected the water/sea to eats ye of from it flesh of tender (i.e. all seafood)

4912 ... would like any of you that eat flesh brother his dead ? (allegoric)

5222 and we will provide them with fruit walaamin (allegoric) from what they desiring
5621 walahmi bird (allegoric any fowl) from what they desiring

If asked "do you eat swine flesh?" It's yes/no and not prefer ears, intestines, fat, etc.

Else bon app?tit!

Peace

Seeking

Wow, I think I unintentionally opened a can of worms with the pig flesh/pig product comment....

(By the way, I want to apologise for not replying lately-I've been busy with studying lately, and my father just had major surgery yesterday, so I haven't been on free minds as much as I was before. But thank you all for commenting, advising and helping me in my understanding, I will try to respond more when I am able to!)