Why can't we see God?
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?No vision can grasp Him, but His Grasp is over all vision. He is the Most Subtle and Courteous, Well-Acquainted with all things.?
(Translation of Holy Quran Verse 103 Chapter 10)I have talked to so many Atheists in my life in so many different occasions. One of the most argument used by less-learned atheists is ?God Has Not Revealed Himself to Me, So He Must Not Exist? some other may say ?One can see God anywhere he wants but that doesn't mean that he exists? A simple response to this argument is to use the popular discussion between a student and his Teacher
Teacher Student do you see the tree outside?
Student Yes.
Teacher Student, do you see the grass outside?
Student Yes.
Teacher Go outside and look up and see if you can see the sky.
Student Okay. (He returned a few minutes later) Yes, I saw the sky.
Teacher Did you see God?
Student No.
Teacher That's my point. We can't see God because he isn't there. He doesn't exist.A Little Girl spoke up and wanted to ask the boy some questions. The Teacher agreed and the Little Girl questioned the boy.
Little Girl Student, do you see the tree outside?
Student Yes.
Little Girl Student do you see the grass outside?
Student Yessssss (getting tired of the questions this time).
Little Girl Did you see the sky?
Student Yessssss.
Little Girl Student, do you see the Teacher?
Student Yes
Little Girl Do you see the Teacher's mind?
Student No.
Little Girl Then according to what we were taught today in school, she must not have one!The above is a beautiful way to prove that the arguments used by the teacher are very weak, in fact, the above example is enough for so many people to believe in the existence of God or at least that God?s existence is not impossible, but to some it?s not so in his post I will try to explain why we can?t see God.
Dear Reader, as you know there are things in this universe we cannot see but we feel them, examples are pain, happiness, sadness, soul, mind (for those who believe in the existence of souls & minds), etc? we can?t see them because they are of a different nature some of them are not objects, some have different physical laws, while others can be seen but not with the human eyes. Just because there are barriers or limitations in our vision to see such things, doesn?t mean they don?t exists.
The issue is in the definition of God? Some definitions limit God, including popular religions (e.g Christianity, Jewish) even some False Hadiths claimed to be the sayings of Prophet Mohammed (Peace, prayer and blessings be upon him). So before answering the question why can?t we see God, we need to little bit understand the definitions of God in existence. The Quran define God differently from other scriptures, the God worshiped by Muslims is defined in Quran. The Perfect, supreme, The Mighty, unlimited, etc? so when you understand God is infinite and unlimited the mere description should answer the question why we can?t see God.
When I say God is unlimited, unrestricted, infinite, I mean he exist beyond the limits of the universe, beyond the knowledge that can be found or attained in this life, universe, multiverse, etc? The laws of physics tell us that we cannot make measurements beyond the limits of this universe and as far as I know scientists said that once upon a time there wasn?t life! In fact scientists today don?t know how Life was originated (At least they admit and not being arrogant that they know everything). Which means both the universe and life are limited, now tell me my friend, how can the limited see the unlimited, understand the secrets of the unlimited, match the power or the knowledge of the unlimited!? It?s not possible! The fact that we are constantly learning, improving, gaining knowledge is great evidence that we are not Perfect, we are not equal to the Supreme God defined by the Quran otherwise we wouldn?t pursuit what we are pursuing. Have you ever heard of a Supreme God trying to get new powers? (you can only find those in Greek, Norse, Hindu, etc mythologies). We simply cannot ever detect God using any of our instruments, now just because God is not restricted to our limitations and the fact we cannot detect him , that doesn?t mean he doesn?t exists. The moment you claim he doesn?t exists you are claiming the instruments you are using are Perfect, Unlimited, etc? which is not true and no sane human being can say they perfect, unlimited, all-knowing, all-powerful, etc?
I am not going to say you need faith in order you see him, in fact even if you have faith you cannot see God, unlike so many spiritual teachers who teach human beings that they can talk to God anytime they want, listen to his voice, see his image, etc? God is beyond that, he may allow a certain events to occur like understanding this dream was from God, this voice was from God, etc? but no one today can prove that because to prove that you actually need to know God before that. For example, if I saw Prophet Mohammed in my dreams how would I know the one I saw in my dream exactly resembles Prophet Mohammed who lived 1000+ years before, I can?t be sure if I never lived and saw Prophet in front of my eyes. Same thing goes for God, you cannot say I saw God, heard his voice, etc? when you never saw him, when you can?t possibly see him with your current limitations.
The problem is so many Christians claims they saw God or talked to God or heard God, that?s why Atheists are insulting their beliefs now and then, same goes for some others like Hindu Yogis who claim such events. However in Islam, God made it clear in his book, I will quote translation of what God said in the Quran ?It is not given to any human being that Allah should speak to him unless (it be) by Inspiration, or from behind a veil, or (that) He sends a Messenger to reveal what He wills by His Leave. Verily, He is Most High, Most Wise.? That?s why when you are denying God or worshiping a God, first tell me more about God for we have different concepts about God, Atheists may be able to disprove existence of God according to one concept but for sure they can?t disprove the same with the God described in the Quran. Yes, If you are wondering, I am grateful I am Muslim.
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Human are very sight dependent. Esp. male. Male measures everything from his sight.
There is a lot of something exist without we can see, infra red, ultraviolet, microwave, sound, wind and everything, because it is not on the visible light spectrum. What if God was not any of it? What if God is not formed by a particle? No matter how hard we tried to measure Him even using a ultrasonic detector we will not find Him. We can detect gravity but we dont know what is gravity. Everything was just a particle, the sounds, the lights, everything. It was just particle on different state. What if God was not formed from a particles? God exist before the particles does.
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How will this theory sit with what is said in the quran? Verses like east or west you will see Allah's face? His dominion extends al of heaven and earth? The similitude of light upon light from a lamp without fire etc. Maybe we are not seeing what is right in front of our eyes? Maybe we are programmed to imagine Allah as a being? How can anything that is omniscient hide? Maybe the answer lies in the verse kul huwallahul ahad! Allah is infinite thus the unity itself.
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@Farabi
Very Well saidHow will this theory sit with what is said in the quran? Verses like east or west you will see Allah's face?
The verse you are referring God isn't referring to actual face here, it's arabic terms we even use till today on our daily life. Its like wherever you direct, you will find me, the word wajh doesn't always mean face, it sometimes mean (way) or sometimes it means sending, other occasions it means of high level so ?there is the wajh of Allaah? means there is the direction of prayer which Allaah accepts. Even if you take it literally, God can't be compared to his creatures and not limited to directions, and since Allah (moheet) there is no issue whatsoever.
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Of course I understand those verses shouldn't be taken literally. Maybe metaphorically it is pointing to the reality?
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Salam,
Wherever you turn to, there is the face of Allah -
This means the following
Whatever be your walk of life, there is the guidance of Allah - so be thankful to Allah and seek Him for Guidance.
Whatever be your direction, Allah keeps watch over you; He is Hearing, Seeing - so fear Allah; and Allah is with he who fears Him and thus guards himself.
drfazl
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Talking about WJH. There is verse on surrah yusuf which said "Look for your father face" which mean, gaining yusuf father attention. I dont think God had WJH. On the afterlife we will be granted to "see" his face, but maybe on way we never imagine of. Maybe He will create a new sensation like sight and hear, as a translation to detect His presence. Maybe. Holy be Allah.
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You cannot see "God" because "God" has no physical form, but if you see the tree waving in the forest you have yet seen "God". The 'spirit' of "God" is everywhere, and it is what causes the autonomous function of the universe.
"God's" can take an expression by causing a mountain to crumble, but "God" is still not there physically. "God" can take control over the air and cause sound waves to be produced into speech, but "God" is still not there physically. Or more exactly, "God" is there, but in omnipresence and only as an invisible sustainer.
"God" only becomes visible to one who assimilates with the spiritual realm because there is where you shall seek "God".
"God" had not intended for everyone to reach affinity because then hypocrites and bad people would be able to enter the Hereafter and that is not the plan. If that was the case "God" could make everyone accept by clearly showing authority and signs undeniable, but that would make people not worthy pass the test because hypocritical people would do exactly like that under slave-like conditions and their hearts/affinity not exposed.
Have faith
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I've explained this in detail here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607171.msg362129#msg362129
You will never see Allah, because if you "see" anything that is "information" (that which informs), and all "information" (visual, auditory, sensory, or even conceptual, and thoughts), are created by Allah.
Allah is not made out of information at all, so is non-information, not a creation of any kind, literally in the image of "Nothing" not empty space, not blackness, not whiteness, nothing at all, no dimensions, and we are information which Allah creates and "encompasses" there is no "space" or "out there".
Mujahid
Maybe it's telling u that all that u know is essentially nothing because there's nothing at the end of it allFreedomStands
well yes
Allah is like nothing literally
non-information
the throne is information, but "nothing" is on itMujahid That's one way of looking at it
FreedomStands
and everywhere
well its what the Qur'an makes kind of clear even
with the statement
"SubhanAllah!" "Void is Allah" "Allah is like nothing" or "Nothing is Allah"
and then
Allah said "you can not see me" or "you will not see me"
because there is nothing to see lol anything seen would be information aka creation
but then
showed what Allah is
by annihilating the mountain
making the mountain become nothing
atomizing it
into oblivionMujahid Yeah interesting
FreedomStands
and then Musa fainted
but Musa
fainting even
was showing what Allah is
because Musa became unconscious, receiving no information
which is called "returning to Allah"
that's why it says when you die
and when you sleep
which is ceasing to "exist" "ceasing to receive any data"Mujahid
Good thoughtsFreedomStands
when its a dreamless sleep
then you "return to Allah"
and the entire thing is "skipped"Mujahid Yeah
FreedomStands
because you can not experience "non information"
there is nothing to experience
so the next thing you know is informationMujahid Yes
FreedomStands
so that is why death is skipped and no matter "how long" we'll only know when we exist again
then MusaMujahid True
FreedomStands
7143
When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When his senses recovered he said "Nothing are you! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe."woke up
and Allah made him say or it was said by him
"subhanaka tubtu ilayka waana awwalu almu/mineena"
the first thing he said
"Nothing are you!"
and then said
he now believes
he is the first of the believers
meaning he finally understood
because he had been asking to see Allah
and then this message is confirmed
throughout the history even in the New Testament even in the Vedas and Bhagavad Gita
and Buddhism and everything
same thingMujahid I have to see that phrase again before making any comments tho rest I understand
FreedomStands
Allah is not made of information, makes all information
sure
you'll find
when carefully analyzed
Subhan means void
nothingMujahid Yeah will have a look
FreedomStands
so people say it means "Glory Be To God From what they attribute"
but really it just means Void is God, or Nothing is God
entirely "unique" in that sense
because everything is "information"
and Allah is the One that isn't
which can only be OneMujahid
How'd u come to that tho?
The void thing
I want to know the processFreedomStands
the void thing is the actual definition of the word lolMujahid
Is it?FreedomStands
yes
I didnt make that up lol
or make it up like Man of Faith
its the real definition of the word
but people shy around it because it seems weird
so they give it longer meanings like "devoid of what they attribute"Mujahid Void not glory?
FreedomStands
no it doesn't mean glory at all
nothing at all connected to gloryMujahid Free from what they attribute comes later
FreedomStands
I know but they say often that is the meaning of "Void is Allah" but I will go find you the definition so you know it
"Like he said, the origin for the word is sabh, voidness, or tasbeeh, making something void.
This would render the term Subhan?allah to mean Allah is void"Mujahid
It's not in the subhan etc just um well I need to look at it I'm unsure if it is what u say it i
Who says that?FreedomStands
well despite that, and you'll find what I say is real etymologyMujahid
Like the quote above?FreedomStands
the quote is from a normal website explaining it I can find many more, but this website is http//9dozen.wordpress.com/2008/11/17/s...s-meaning/
but its the real etymology of sabhMujahid
I'll look into it for myself thanks tho it's interestinghttps//books.google.ca/books?id=EBBDD_q...id&f=false
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasbih
Mujahid
Ok ok u know I can use the Internet right?
I will when I'm on the pc
FreedomStands
haha ok
anyway
besides just it actually saying that
its also the only logical thing
as I've explained in detail why its necessaryMujahid Yeah I know
FreedomStands
in the things long things you never take in...
and thenMujahid Lol
FreedomStands
haha
and also
besides that its like super important
in order to eschew all idolatries of the mind
to realize Allah is the Annihilation (meaning of Nirvana even)
Like Death
that we really are a "Death Cult" lolMujahid Great now we're nihilists
FreedomStands
but also that Allah isn't "just nothing" because "just nothing" can't do anything, Allah has the power to create things
through his "Word" which greeks called Logos and Hindus called Vac
it just refers to God's creative power
in Japan its called Musubi
sometimes its called Shakti
in India
and what God creates, instantly and out of nothing, are what I've described which is just "anything" I call it all "information"
"that which informs"
"is made known" first to Allah of course, then to all the "experiencers" whichever it is specifically made for and as
to be part of their experience
Allah encompasses all visionsMujahid Yes
FreedomStands
but no visions can encompass Allah6103
No human vision can encompass Him, whereas He encompasses all vision for He alone is unfathomable, all-aware.meaning no information
and Allah's power is information creation and destruction and creationMujahid Uve got a really interesting thing here tho
FreedomStands
moment to moment the moment just before is no more so destroyed
yeah see!
trying to tell these people lolMujahid It generally flows well too
FreedomStands
and I didnt make any of it up
its not some weird theory its from all the scriptures
let me add
since people confuse the metaphor of "light"
they don't realize why that metaphor is used
not only is "light" used in two senses often as "knowledge" and "that which means manifest/seen/known"
but besides that
even real physical light is invisible
and is only known by what it is reflected on
but in the Qur'an it was used only as a metaphor
and in the Bible
"God who is has never been seen and can not be seen living in unapproachable "light" "
doesn't mean like a sun
light itself means knowledge but besides that actual light (and these are just metaphors but the reason light as a metaphor is even used) is because you can't see it
it fills a room but the room appears emptyMujahid Yeah
FreedomStands
you only know of its presence by what it reflects on or makes seen
and Allah literally is "what makes anything seen"
as in creating the informationMujahid Yeah makes sense
FreedomStands
in Egypt, Allah was known as Amun (meaning Unseen, Hidden), who they also said is "like nothing, without form, without body, pure" and they attached the other name "Ra"
Ra means "manifest" or really "what makes meanifest" because it was associated with light
and it was believed by ancient people that the "eyes produce light"
and so the sun was thought of as a kind of "eye"
but in a metaphorical sense
what God "looks upon" is what "is"
that is "information" "what god is informed of"Mujahid V interesting thanks
FreedomStands
(understanding this is Allah's favor to you, and us, completely given without any reason or based in any conditions because Allah is unbound and entirely free, so the goodness from Allah is given entirely without basis, completely free, unconditional, unconditioned, auspiciousness which is the meaning also of the word Shiva)
but its not that there is anything existing there first
Allah creates it
and the Egyptians understood this
and worshipped Allah
even in the same way
as did the Sumerians
even holding their hands
the same way
they have statues of "devotees" and they are doing all the poses
our religion is very old (and is one religion)
"Relinquishing all ideas of righteousness, Surrender (saranam) unto Me ALONE/EXCLUSIVELY (ekam). I will deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not despair." Bhagavad Gita 1866(ekam meaning One Ultimate there can never be two unindividuated because to have two requires individuation only information can be distinguished and can be two and God is not made of information and the total lack of all information, annihilation, is One)
319
Lo! religion with Allah (is) the Surrender (to His Will and Guidance). Those who (formerly) received the Scripture differed only after knowledge came unto them, through transgression among themselves. Whoso disbelieveth the revelations of Allah (will find that) lo! Allah is swift at reckoning.383
Do they seek, perchance, a religion other than in God, although it is unto Him that whatever is in the heavens and on earth surrenders itself, willingly or unwillingly, and unto Him all must return?384
Say "We believe in God, and in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, and that which has been bestowed upon Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and their descendants, and that which has been vouchsafed by their Sustainer unto Moses and Jesus and all the prophets we make no distinction between any of them. And unto Him do we surrender ourselves."385
And whoever desires a religion other than the Surrender, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.933
It is He Who hath sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion, even though the people of Shirk may detest (it).and its all the religions
everywhere in the world the same message is there
but people don't lookMujahid
Not sure if the positions are due to something we have to do
Usually there are a lot of simalritues due to human things etc
Because we take on things usually the samish way
As in respect
Most cultures consider bowingFreedomStands
yeah interesting, but I think they are just symbolic meditative postures, to remind people of different things, originally the "hands to the ears" was meaning "I hear" and then the hand thing on us means "obedience" and this is not me making it up this is historically known
as the historical postures which symbolized "humility"
"obedience
so its "I hear, and I obey"Mujahid Yeah I agree
FreedomStands and then we recite whatever, then we bow, and they all bow across the world, and all did wudu in the same way
they all used to keep ritual purity which is now taken away from them
it was super important to them
well they happened to do it in the exact same way across the world56
O ye who believe! When ye rise up for performing worship, wash you faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and lightly rub your heads and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet (toilet), or ye have had sexual contact, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it (the clean dirt or sand). Allah would not place a burden on you, but He would purify you and would perfect His grace upon you, that ye may give thanks. -
I just wanna know that if we can not use the information given to us to try and attempt knowing the nature of God, and we cant put him physically. Then why God himself explained about his nature with giving examples of physical objects/references? Face is one example, yes he may not have a face like us but still does he have what is characterized as face in terms of what is face meant for?
Then there are references to the word throne in many many verses and yet again God gives examples to us using the physical objects we see.117 He is the One who has created the heavens and the earth in six days, and His Throne was upon the water; so as to test who from among you works the best. And when you say ?You will be resurrected after the death,? those who have rejected say ?This is but clear magic!?
103 Your Lord is God who has created the heavens and the earth in six days, then He settled upon the Throne; He manages all affairs. There is no intercessor except after His permission. Such is God your Lord, so serve Him. Would you not remember?
2255 ? 2261
the heavens and the earth. Who will intercede with Him except with His permission? He knows their present and their future, and they do not have any of His knowledge except for what He wishes. His Throne encompasses all of the heavens and the earth and it is easy for Him to preserve them. He is the Most High, the Great."754 Your Lord is God who has created the heavens and the earth in six days, then He settled upon the Throne.
I would like to know the meaning of throne with respect to water, encompasses all heavens and earth, settling upon throne.
All of above is PHYSICAL to me unless He just uses these terms to explain us, yet God can not be contained within his own creation.
Cheers
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Salaam,
I am not sure, but may be because Allah is energy or a type of energy, so that's why we can't see Allah.
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If you can see your hand when you raise your it then you have seen God.
That does not mean God is physical, but the visual illusion that you see is formed from the "force field" that is God. God sustains it like a kind of platform.
Salaam
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If you can see your hand when you raise your it then you have seen God.
That does not mean God is physical, but the visual illusion that you see is formed from the "force field" that is God. God sustains it like a kind of platform.
Salaam
I just raised my hand and started imagining myself to see God. I don't know why that made me laugh though. Lol. But I agree with the believe that God is everywhere. I also believe the same, and Quran implies this in many verses.
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The raise your hand statement is meant as a little humorous.
Indeed God has no form nor is restricted to time or space, so God is ultimately omnipresent and part of every location at the same time, and God's "force field" is what forms the material illusion that you see and which your raised hand is part of. It is not wrong to have a pantheistic perception of God although I prefer to erase the traditional theism as inaccurate.
Salaam
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If you can see your hand when you raise your it then you have seen God.
I hope you could stop from telling such thing. Why you don't seem to have fear of Allah?
Remember this verse.
(2765) Say "None in the heavens and the earth knows the unseen except Allah.
And they do not perceive when they will be resurrected."And these verses.
(6944) Now if he had dared to attribute some sayings unto Us,
(6945) We would indeed have seized him by his right hand,
(6946) and would indeed have cut his life-vein
(6947) and none of you could have saved him.
(694 And, verily, this is a reminder to all the God-conscious.
So be careful.
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The raise your hand statement is meant as a little humorous.
Indeed God has no form nor is restricted to time or space, so God is ultimately omnipresent and part of every location at the same time, and God's "force field" is what forms the material illusion that you see and which your raised hand is part of. It is not wrong to have a pantheistic perception of God although I prefer to erase the traditional theism as inaccurate.
Salaam
That's how I feel too, but I am never sure. So, I just pray to God to guide me always if I am ever wrong as God knows the best. I am not sure about pantheistic though. Yes, God is part of universe, but God is beyond that, imo.
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Peace
C'mon folks you can't see Allah, and if you have or can, you either suffer from
misinformation or a mental condition.7/143 And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said,
"My Lord, show me that I may look at You." said, "You will not see Me,
but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me." But when
his Lord appeared to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell unconscious.
And when he awoke, he said, "Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and
I am the first of the believers."God bless
peace
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Finding,
God is the existence and the only permanently and indefinitely existing and only those who merge with the same consciousness will continue to exist in God. What you see is a mere illusion which does not really exist but is projected by the "force" of God.
The error people make is that they force God to be a separate image due to some Pagan ideology about gods while we actually are supposed to be merged in that consciousness and so to say co-exist in it. It is not idolatry because you acknowledge that it is ultimately the only real existence and you yourself only alone exist in the flesh/illusion. You are basically nothing alone. You seek to exist in God directly by sharing affinity and thus merging.
Salaam
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Hawk99,
Exactly, Moses saw Allah through the flesh/illusion and just like the parable of raising the hand like I wrote to 'Finding'. A person with realization does not need more than the raised hand. And Moses apologize quickly afterwards.
Salaam
