Oldest Qur?an manuscript MA VI 165
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Salam my brother hicham9...
In my book, when the post-qurnic diacritization are taken out the textus receptus, you get a North-Arabian, Nabatean/Aramean lingua ? starting with the very first qurnic prep. phrase b-sm (ـ.
U r a knowledgeable and true Quranist. Please read below...
Peace Brother Wakas
Thank you for your reply
Below are the evidences....
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606373.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607488.0
First off, Nabatean was never an Arabic language. In fact even up till today, the people of the Levant never consider themselves as Arabs. There are thousands of stele found in the Levant, from Syria to down south Jordan, with Nabatean inscription compare to Syriac which actually derives from Nabatean and not the other way round. Parthian, Middle Persian, Khawarimian, Soghdian - all contains Huzwaresh, which means words that were Nabatean in origin. Anyone within that area would be able to comprehend these languages.
The Arabic of the Quran was tailored by the Arabs of AlHira by combining these two languages, Musnad and Nabatean, into one which is known today as Arabic using its first script, Jazm. So that is why you can find many so called Syriac words which is actually Nabatean in the Quran!
These occurred during the Arabization of the Middle East by the Arabs under Queen Maviya in the late 4th century / early 5th Century. Queen Maviya was the predecessor of Bani Ummayah or better known as Bani Umm Maviya - Children of Mother Maviya.
Salam
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Peace -- another early text was kind of shorthand and every 10 verses scribe kept checksum.
Birmingham Quran manuscript radiocarbon dated 568 - 645 CE ~95% probability.
http//www.bbc.com/news/business-33436021
No ending verse markings after 201 ta ha
202 not descended we of upon you the Qur?an that thou agonizehttp//oi64.tinypic.com/jb4u1g.jpg
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Peace Noon
http//arabetics.com/public/html/more/History%20of%20the%20Arabic%20Script_article_files/image008.gif
According to Professor Peter Stein - University of Jena, Germany, who is the world expert on ASA; this script was made sometime in the end of 3rd Century CE and the correct rendering of the ancient text is that it is a legal document which states that a certain amount (the actual number has been left open) of Sorghum has been granted by A MAN TO FOUR WOMEN.
Quranic verse 0403 - 04 sound VERY SIMILAR. Now, if this is the case, how come in the 3rd Century, such Quranic law was initiated in South Arabia?
What say you?
peace
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Peace Noon
According to Professor Peter Stein - University of Jena, Germany, who is the world expert on ASA; this script was made sometime in the end of 3rd Century CE and the correct rendering of the ancient text is that it is a legal document which states that a certain amount (the actual number has been left open) of Sorghum has been granted by A MAN TO FOUR WOMEN.
Quranic verse 0403 - 04 sound VERY SIMILAR. Now, if this is the case, how come in the 3rd Century, such Quranic law was initiated in South Arabia?
What say you?
peace
Peace Hizbullah -- not sure why man leaves something to four women has to do with Qur'an/context of chapter four?
43 and if fear you that not thou deal justly ye of in/concerning the bereaved so sponsor marriage ye of what suitable for you from the womenfolk twosome and three and quadruple so if fear you that not thou equivalence ye of so one (f/s) or what hold right hands (possessions i.e. wealth what one can afford) yours such lowest that not thou oppress ye of 44 and give ye of the womenfolk handouts theirs graciously so if remit for you about thing from it soul of (i.e. on their own) so consume it satisfaction ease 45 and not give the foolish wealth yours the one made the god for you stand/support of and provide ye them therein and clothe ye them and speak ye of to them speech of fair manner of 46 and test ye of the bereaved until when attained they of the marriage so if perceive you from them right way of/rational so deliver ye of toward them wealth theirs and not thou eat/consume ye it wastefully and hastily of lest/that grow up they of and who be ample of so should refrain and who be poor of so let eat/consume in the fair manner so when deliver you toward them wealth theirs so witnesses ye of on/over them and sufficient in/by the god reckon-er of 47 to the menfolk share from what left the parents and the nearer/relatives being and for the womenfolk share from what left the parents and the nearer/relatives being of what small from it or large share of obligatory of 48 and when comes the division possessors the relative and the bereaved and the needy so provide ye them from it and speak ye of to them speech of fair manner of 49 and let fear the ones in case left they of from behind them progeny weak fear they of over them so let fear they of the god and let speak they of speech of appropriate of 410 surely the ones are eating/consuming wealth the bereaved injustice of only are eating/consuming in interior of body theirs fire of and shall burning blaze of 411 instructs you the god in/concerning offspring yours ...
inheritance summary http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604035.msg385440#msg385440
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Peace Noon,
So base on Professor Peter Stein interpretation, the text seems to show alms / charity towards the women. It also seems to be very similar to the Quran 0403....If suppose the word NIKAH is not part of Q0403 - ? the Quranic verse sound like??
And if you fear that you cannot distribute in the orphans, what seems suitable you all of the women, two or three or four, so that you fear you cannot be just, then one or those your right hand possesses. That is more suitable that you may not incline.
If you read further verse 0404, there is no word "dowry" but instead it mentions "charity".
Q0404 - And give the women their alms / charity graciously. But if they give up willingly to you anything of it, then take it in satisfaction and ease.
Now, if this is the case, 0403 ? 0404, did not render the marriage of orphans among the women but instead to give charity to the women, affordable to the donor, 2, 3 or 4 women, but if he / she cannot afford than 1 is enough.
The reason why i believe the word "NIKAH" was indoctrinated is that if someone fear because he could not provide or distribute some things than that means he is lack of financial or other means of support. Than how can he marries 2 or 3 or 4 women? This will put more burden on him considering if he already has a wife to support.
Furthermore, the 1st sentence of this Chapter starting with the word "Oh Mankind" referring to both men and women who are / were the audience.
I believe the verses 0403-04 have something to do with charity. If you read further verses 05 and 06, it tells us to take care of the orphans / singles property until their marriageable age. The ancient cursive Musnad text does provide prove of Quranic Law used, pertaining to distribution of charity to 4 single women in the 3rd / 4th Century CE.
Note Whatever i have written is base only on the results of my own research.
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Peace
201 ta ha -- clearly not counted in two earliest known manuscripts and suspect numbering system was for scribes to keep a checksum.
http//idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165
http//oi68.tinypic.com/213nj3a.jpg
http//www.birmingham.ac.uk/facilities/cadbury/quran-manuscript/index.aspx
http//oi67.tinypic.com/68ssx5.jpg
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Peace -- an update on this manuscript is as today slight difference in that the scribe kept a different verse count/checksum every ten verses "heavy red dots" so there is an extra verse count in chapter 27 and one less in other chapters like chapter 20 (see earlier posts) and chapter 36 where initials are not counted as separate verses.
http//oi63.tinypic.com/xkn7yh.jpg
http//oi67.tinypic.com/2wcfyok.jpg
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Peace Noon
According to Professor Peter Stein - University of Jena, Germany, who is the world expert on ASA; this script was made sometime in the end of 3rd Century CE and the correct rendering of the ancient text is that it is a legal document which states that a certain amount (the actual number has been left open) of Sorghum has been granted by A MAN TO FOUR WOMEN.
Quranic verse 0403 - 04 sound VERY SIMILAR. Now, if this is the case, how come in the 3rd Century, such Quranic law was initiated in South Arabia?
What say you?
peace
Peace Noon,
Why did you avoid my question?
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Peace Noon,
Why did you avoid my question?
Peace Hizbullah -- already answered earlier.
- some guy leaving whatever to four women nothing to do with this thread/topic
- nothing to do with Qur'an
- open different thread state how different than any man leaving stuff to women
Now back to topic Qur?an manuscript MA VI 165 it is a wonder how it matches today's script only difference how the scribe kept a different checksum i.e. every 10 verses and numbering system to keep count which varies slightly.
Here is another difference which contains an extra verse count in chapter 35 hence total 46 verses.
http//oi66.tinypic.com/24o0xp3.jpg
Here is a summary of differences found thus far in verse counts only (for numerologists) ...
ch vrs even ch vrs odd
1 7 8 3 200 203
2 286 288 5 120 125
4 176 180 6 165 171
9 129 138 7 206 213
11 123 134 8 75 83
13 43 56 10 109 119
14 52 66 12 111 123
15 99 114 19 98 117
16 128 144 21 112 133
17 111 128 23 118 141
18 110 128 27 94 121
20 134 154 28 87 115
22 78 100 31 34 65
24 64 88 35 46 81
25 77 102 37 182 219
26 226 252 40 85 125
29 69 98 41 54 95
30 60 90 42 53 95
32 30 62 44 59 103
33 73 106 46 35 81
34 54 88 47 38 85
36 82 118 48 29 77
38 88 126 49 18 67
39 75 114 50 45 95
43 89 132 51 60 111
45 37 82 52 49 101
56 96 152 53 62 115
57 29 86 54 55 109
58 22 80 55 78 133
63 11 74 59 24 83
64 18 82 60 13 73
66 12 78 61 14 75
68 52 120 62 11 73
70 44 114 65 12 77
72 28 100 67 30 97
74 56 130 69 52 121
78 40 118 71 28 99
80 42 122 73 20 93
81 29 110 75 40 115
87 19 106 76 31 107
88 26 114 77 50 127
90 20 110 79 46 125
91 15 106 82 19 101
93 11 104 83 36 119
94 8 102 84 25 109
97 5 102 85 22 107
98 8 106 86 17 103
101 11 112 89 30 119
102 8 110 92 21 113
103 3 106 95 8 103
105 5 110 96 19 115
106 4 110 99 8 107
107 7 114 100 11 111
111 5 116 104 9 113
112 4 116 108 3 111
113 5 118 109 6 115
114 6 120 110 3 113 -
Peace Hizbullah -- already answered earlier.
- some guy leaving whatever to four women nothing to do with this thread/topic
- nothing to do with Qur'an
- open different thread state how different than any man leaving stuff to women
Noon,
I am showing you proves of ancient Quranic evidence and has something to do with this thread.
You deliberately denied solid evidence of Quranic legislation implemented in the 3rd Century. Quran 0403-04, tells us the legislation of providing charity to orphan / single women.
http//arabetics.com/public/html/more/History%20of%20the%20Arabic%20Script_article_files/image008.gif
Quran 6304 - And when you see them, you wonder their personality, AND WHEN THEY SPEAK, YOU LISTEN TO THEIR SPEECH. INDEED THEIR WERE MUSNAD WOODEN ......
Feel free to follow the sectarian lies!
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I am showing you proves of ancient Quranic evidence and has something to do with this thread.
You deliberately denied solid evidence of Quranic legislation implemented in the 3rd Century. Quran 0403-04, tells us the legislation of providing charity to orphan / single women.
Feel free to follow the sectarian lies!
Peace Hizbullah -- no evidence, off topic, did not show which word is "charity" or "orphan" or its context?
Keep quoting Qur'an in use now like one in this thread dated to 6th century and no evidence 3rd century.
Perhaps produce something like Perf 558 which contains date also...
in name the god the almighty the merciful
shr/lunar cycle Jumada as in 2185 shr/lunar cycle Ramadan
http//oi65.tinypic.com/a9ygm0.jpg
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Peace Hizbullah -- no evidence, off topic, did not show which word is "charity" or "orphan" or its context?
Keep quoting Qur'an in use now like one in this thread dated to 6th century and no evidence 3rd century.
Perhaps produce something like Perf 558 which contains date also...
in name the god the almighty the merciful
shr/lunar cycle Jumada as in 2185 shr/lunar cycle Ramadan
Is this how you gather information to prove your point? Without using critical thinking concept? It is not right!
Quranic evidence does not means only Quranic verses or pages but it involves the concept of evaluating information gathered from observation and reasoning which are similar to what the Quranic possession of a set of information.
You cannot outright refute. For example, the writings on the wooden stick - what are the information pertaining to the writings? Were they Quranic information / legislation? Yes, No, Very similar to a certain extent? In what script the information was written in order to identify when it was written? So on and so forth.
Fyi, with the evidences, you provided - shows clearly that the Quran was written in the Jazm Script in the 6th Century CE, when the so called Prophet was not even born yet. So how could you justify that the Arab was the Prophet when evidences shows the Quran was already present even before he was born? If you follow the traditional Islamic history, the Quran was sent down when the Prophet was in his 40th birthday, sometime in the early 7th Century CE. This was the time he was selected to be a prophet and the Quran was sent down from this point onwards! How do you justify this?
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You cannot outright refute. For example, the writings on the wooden stick - what are the information pertaining to the writings? Were they Quranic information / legislation? Yes, No, Very similar to a certain extent? In what script the information was written in order to identify when it was written? So on and so forth.
Peace Hizbullah, don't care about sticks; please stay on topic; open separate thread; tell us what they exactly say.
Fyi, with the evidences, you provided - shows clearly that the Quran was written in the Jazm Script in the 6th Century CE, when the so called Prophet was not even born yet. So how could you justify that the Arab was the Prophet when evidences shows the Quran was already present even before he was born? If you follow the traditional Islamic history, the Quran was sent down when the Prophet was in his 40th birthday, sometime in the early 7th Century CE. This was the time he was selected to be a prophet and the Quran was sent down from this point onwards! How do you justify this?
Again you keep making assumptions and already showed evidence which gives a date i.e. range. Here again are two separate Qur'ans which consistently show 201 ta ha (together as single verse with) 202 not descended we of upon you the Qur?an that thou agonize
MA VI 165 95.4% probability between 649-675 CE
http//idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165
http//oi63.tinypic.com/2u8vzwg.jpg
Birmingham 95.4% probability between 568-645 CE
http//www.birmingham.ac.uk/facilities/cadbury/quran-manuscript/index.aspx
http//oi67.tinypic.com/2qum890.jpg
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Peace,
The manuscript is consistent with today's difference in verse numbering scribe kept checksum as noted with some initials together as single verse 201 ta ha (MA VI 165 and Birmingham Qur'an) together with 202 not descended we of upon you the Qur?an that thou agonize
Likewise verse 2040 is clearly split into two separate verses...
2040 when was going sister your so she said shall I show you upon who nurse him so we returned you to mother your that cool/comfort eye hers and not thou grieve and slay thou soul of so saved we you from the distress and tested we you test of (start new verse) so stayed thou years with individuals Madyan furthermore thou came on decree O Moses
There are slight differences with missing alif e.g. 213 distraught (spelled ه.
Here is the rest of ch 20 to beginning of ch 21 ...
http//oi64.tinypic.com/67qscy.jpg
http//oi66.tinypic.com/2ikfyg3.jpg
http//oi66.tinypic.com/315fhxe.jpg
http//oi64.tinypic.com/2ikvzv4.jpg
http//oi66.tinypic.com/2q1fpn5.jpg
http//oi65.tinypic.com/1zt5ar.jpg
http//oi63.tinypic.com/2nvcvuv.jpg
http//oi64.tinypic.com/2dumut3.jpg
http//oi65.tinypic.com/jfdua0.jpg
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Peace, another example text matches difference in verse numbering...
321 & 322 single verse...
321 alif lam meem (no end verse marks) 322 revelation the book not doubt in it from lord the creations3210 is split into two verses...
3210 and say they of is when we are lost in the land will we surely in creation new ... (start new verse) rather themselves in meeting lord theirs skeptics being
http//oi64.tinypic.com/35klawg.jpg
http//oi66.tinypic.com/641mrr.jpg
http//oi65.tinypic.com/2cna6qh.jpg
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The verse numbering is not native with the scripture. It is a later addition.
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Quran 1636?..SO TRAVEL IN THE EARTH AND SEE HOW WAS THE END OF THE DENIERS.
So travel the earth and carry out research, investigation and find out what is the truth and what is false.
Now, base on Q4144, according to Arrazi, 3jam means Persian. He was right to a certain extent. Actually 3jam means the presence of writing elements known as the ?huzvresh?. The ?huzvresh? were words that were so called "Nabatean Aramaic" in origin and were written in the Middle Persian, Soghdian, Khawarizmian. In another words, these languages were the so called "Nabatean Aramaic" written in different scripts and all with 22 alphabets ? Aleph, Beth, Gamal, Dalath - Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta?so on and so forth ? Abgd and written from right to left].
The Persian Empire was forced to employ the contemporaneous languages of the ancient Near East for the record of the empire. For effective diplomatic communication among the provinces of the empire, the so called Nabatean ?Aramaic?, as a Lingua Franca, was chosen. It was a natural choice and a practical one Nabatean ?Aramaic? was already widely spoken in the Levant, Turkey , Egypt, and Western Iran. Anyone, irrespective of whether they were in the Levant, Turkey , Egypt or Persia would be able to comprehend Nabatean ?Aramaic?. So when the Quran talk about 3jam, it means those aforesaid languages, that was widely spoken in the Sasanian Empire in the 3rd Century CE.
As for Arabic, the Quran is actually referring to the Ancient South Arabian that was widely spoken in South Arabia. The difference between the Quranic Arabic and ASA, is that the Quranic Arabic sounds more ?Nabatean Aramaic?. In fact, Quran Arabic is a combination of both so called Nabatean Aramaic and South Arabian Musnad, plausible created in the late 4th / early 5th Century CE. It adopted the same number of alphabet like ASA, 28 alphabets.
If the Quran was sent down in the 7th Century CE, then it is of no use that the Quran mentioned the word 3jam. This is because, the whole of Arabia ? right up to southern Turkey, Persia , Northern Africa, Spain, already adopted Arabic as the spoken and written language since the late 4th / early 5th Century CE. All those other languages with Huzwaresh and the so called Aramaic had already died out and no more in existence. So what is the point of mentioning them in the Quran?
Noon,
Appreciate, if you could answer my question - written in bold.
peace
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Noon,
Appreciate, if you could answer my question - written in bold.
peace
Peace Hizbullah, appreciate if you could acknowledge last question date of manuscript which you are using?
Again you keep making assumptions and already showed evidence which gives a date i.e. range.
MA VI 165 95.4% probability between 649-675 CE
http//idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165
Also post questions clearly and what exactly is it you are asking?
Now, base on Q4144, according to Arrazi, 3jam means Persian. He was right to a certain extent
al-Razi born 1149 CE in Iran/Persian/alfarisia -- right about what?
Translate word left untranslated?
26198 and in case we revealed it on others al-ajamna ? 26199 so recited it on them not be they of in it believers
http//oi64.tinypic.com/2b1wyf.jpg
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i asked you a very simple question and you deliberately ignore as usual.
If the Quran was sent down in the 7th Century as you and your sectarian allies claimed, why is there the word "a3jam" mention in the Quran? considering the fact that in the 7th Century CE, the Lingua Franca of the Arab world was Arabic even in Persia to a certain extent.
Arabic was the spoken and written language in Arabia and the Levant and some part of Persia. To the East of the Persian Empire, Arabic was a religious language because of the Quran!
I do not see the necessity to mention the word "a3jam" , when Arabic is the sole language of the Quran!
Appreciate you could give me a descent answer and dont beat around the bush... nope
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i asked you a very simple question and you deliberately ignore as usual.
If the Quran was sent down in the 7th Century as you and your sectarian allies claimed, why is there the word "a3jam" mention in the Quran? considering the fact that in the 7th Century CE, the Lingua Franca of the Arab world was Arabic even in Persia to a certain extent.
Arabic was the spoken and written language in Arabia and the Levant and some part of Persia. To the East of the Persian Empire, Arabic was a religious language because of the Quran!
I do not see the necessity to mention the word "a3jam" , when Arabic is the sole language of the Quran!
Appreciate you could give me a descent answer and dont beat around the bush... nope
OK better although don't appreciate your tone and please don't associate me with sectarians to paraphrase Thomas Jefferson ?I am a sect by myself" far as I know; see this is about word meanings and appreciate you answer my earlier question ...
Please translate al-ajamna tell us exactly what it is you are implying?
26198 and in case we revealed it on others al-ajamna ? 26199 so recited it on them not be they of in it believers
Are you implying it was not part of Arabic language in 7th Century?
What about Ar-Rum/The Romans -- was it part of Arabic language at the time or not?
http//oi59.tinypic.com/25a6d50.jpg