Bakka/Mecca
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Oh I forget there is one piece of evidence. Do you know of the Abraha expedition?
http//www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_pre-islamic/fig04_sabaean.htm
http//www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/figs-stones/large/color_lg_jpeg/fig04_c_lg.jpg
Again, this inscription makes a list of places being historically associated with the Abraha expedition. Yet, Mecca is nowhere mentioned in it. Would you think such a famous place of pilgrimage, a famous sanctuary of its time would have been missed by Abraha? Abraha conquered the Hejaz yet no mention whatsoever of Mecca.
The hadith claimed he tried conquering mecca using elephants. Historical evidence contradicts this. If mecca existed at all it was of less significance than some of the places mentioned in that inscription.
Make again note of the entirely different alphabet used than we know from the oldest preserved versions of Quran.
Peace
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There are no books of people of the Hejaz region of that time. This is most logical since Mecca wasn't even on the map in that time. If Quran is not clear to you on these matters (oldest manuscript of that time) there is nothing I can help you with.
The existing inscriptions found in modern Saudi Arabia are systematically destroyed by the Saudi authorities because the alphabet used in them contradicts the hadith/sunna narrative.
Outside Quran I can only refer you to academic articles which you seem to dismiss using an unproven argument of bias.
Peace
"There are no books of people of the Hejaz region of that time. "
Yet you claim to know better.
"his is most logical since Mecca wasn't even on the map in that time."
How long after the death of the Prophet did Mecca "get on the map"? You do know that it spread quite quickly.
"If Quran is not clear to you on these matters (oldest manuscript of that time) there is nothing I can help you with."
The oldest manuscript of the time and its adherents say one thing, while you, armed with conjectures and hope say another. Now who should I believe?
"The existing inscriptions found in modern Saudi Arabia are systematically destroyed by the Saudi authorities because the alphabet used in them contradicts the hadith/sunna narrative."
Care to link us to the part that says that Mecca was never the Kaaba for Muslims or that the dieties you mentioned were never worshiped there?
"Outside Quran I can only refer you to academic articles which you seem to dismiss using an unproven argument of bias."
Outside the Quran there are thousands of articles that refute all the claims within your copy pasted articles. I seriously have no patience for a copy paste competition here.
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Feel free to disagree. It's equal to me and of little importance. Although I doubt you know your qbl.
Peace
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Make again note of the entirely different alphabet used than we know from the oldest preserved versions of Quran.
Peace
Could it be because he was from Yemen?
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Manha on the way to Turban
Halban
Ma'ad
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Manha on the way to Turban
Halban
Ma'ad
How do we know its the same expedition?
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Could it be because he was from Yemen?
First of all he was ethiopian (aksumite).
Second, the inscription is not in Ge'ez (ethiopian alphabet of that time) but in Sabaean aka Southern arabic alphabet.
Peace
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How do we know its the same expedition?
Because it explicitly states it
b kh ya l / r h m n n / w m s ya h ha /
m l k n / a b r ha / z ya b m n / m l k / s b a / w z r ya d n / w h dh r m d tWith the power (help) of god, and the Jesus (=Christian) King Abraha Zeebman (King's title), the King of Saba'a, Zuridan and Hadrmaut.
Peace
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First of all he was ethiopian (aksumite).
Second, the inscription is not in Ge'ez (ethiopian alphabet of that time) but in Sabaean aka Southern arabic alphabet.
Peace
Sabaen is a south arabian 'Language' and not a south arabian 'script'.
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It has its own alphabet. As shown in the inscription and shown in the inscriptions found in Yemen.
https//traveltoeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/wpid-Photo-Dec-4-2012-710-PM.jpg
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Because it explicitly states it
b kh ya l / r h m n n / w m s ya h ha /
m l k n / a b r ha / z ya b m n / m l k / s b a / w z r ya d n / w h dh r m d tWith the power (help) of god, and the Jesus (=Christian) King Abraha Zeebman (King's title), the King of Saba'a, Zuridan and Hadrmaut.
Peace
How does that prove that this was the expedition mentioned in the hadith? Do you think that a yemeni king at that time only ever attacked an arabian village / tribe only once in his life?
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It has its own alphabet. As shown in the inscription and shown in the inscriptions found in Yemen.
So why are you comparing it to the Quran? Are you saying no other languages existed in south arabia at that time?
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It seems to me you have some reading to do (i.e. historical literature).
A King conquering Mecca would most likely have made mention of it if the hadith were true. Not only that he would most likely build his church in the Hijaz he conquered. But in contrary we find Abraha built his church at Sanaa (Yemen) not the Hejaz. All indicators point towards Mecca being non-existing or insignificant to Abraha, wouldn't you agree?
Are you saying the southern arabs at the time of Qurans revelation used the aramaic alphabet? Please provide evidence of it we can show to the world. As far as I know the only scripture using Aramaic alphabet are the Qurans they kept at eg Sanaa. Using a northern arab (aramaic) alphabet. None of which can be dated to the Qurans time of revelation but post-quranic revelation.
On top of this Mecca was never the capital of the early caliphs. Damascus was for a long time their base of operation.
Peace
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All this stuff is so basic. Claiming the Quran was written in southern arabic alphabet is like saying Mao wrote his red book using the Russian alphabet.
For reference see here
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Arabic_alphabet
It has a table listing the examples of the different alphabets used, timeframe and location.
Peace
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It seems to me you have some reading to do (i.e. historical literature).
A King conquering Mecca would most likely have made mention of it if the hadith were true. Not only that he would most likely build his church in the Hijaz he conquered. But in contrary we find Abraha built his church at Sanaa (Yemen) not the Hejaz. All indicators point towards Mecca being non-existing or insignificant to Abraha, wouldn't you agree?
Are you saying the southern arabs at the time of Qurans revelation used the aramaic alphabet? Please provide evidence of it we can show to the world. As far as I know the only scripture using Aramaic alphabet are the Qurans they kept at eg Sanaa. Using a northern arab alphabet. None of which can be dated to the Qurans time of revelation but post-quranic revelation.
Peace
"It seems to me you have some reading to do (i.e. historical literature)".
A King conquering Mecca would most likely have made mention of it if the hadith were true. Not only that he would most likely build his church in the Hijaz he conquered. But in contrary we find Abraha built his church at Sanaa (Yemen) not the Hejaz. All indicators point towards Mecca being non-existing or insignificant to Abraha, wouldn't you agree?"
Lets both do some reading ... you can read about the the hadith story of abraha (year of the elephant) and how he died before getting back to yemen. Hence no church in Hijaz. His church in saana as per the hadith was built before he came to conquer Mecca.
"Are you saying the southern arabs at the time of Qurans revelation used the aramaic alphabet? Please provide evidence of it we can show to the world. As far as I know the only scripture using Aramaic alphabet are the Qurans they kept at eg Sanaa. Using a northern arab alphabet. None of which can be dated to the Qurans time of revelation but post-quranic revelation."
Yes not only the Quran but the actual emergence of Islam, brought a mostly vocal society into the realms of written literature pretty quickly. Whether they established it based on aramaic, or hindi or martian. Fact remains that when they created it they became its custodians. You may not like what they say, but you cannot deny their authority for saying it.
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Lets both do some reading ... you can read about the the hadith story of abraha (year of the elephant) and how he died before getting back to yemen. Hence no church in Hijaz. His church in saana as per the hadith was built before he came to conquer Mecca.
This perfectly sums up the authority you attribute to hadith even if it contradicts historical facts.
Peace
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This perfectly sums up the authority you attribute to hadith even if it contradicts historical facts.
Peace
Lol .. you assume that abraha only ever conducted one military expedition in his life and this rock inscription is actually relating the story of his attack on Mecca.
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I'm not assuming any such thing. How could I be assuming such thing when I'm clearly saying Mecca wasn't on the map in that era. Nor did the hijaz region use the aramaic alphabet at that time.
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All this quibbling about the qibla... one might start to think the Quran was right saying not one of you is agreeing on the qibla. I'm outside all this quibbling about the qibla a really nice person according to most.
Peace
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I'm not assuming any such thing. How could I be assuming such thing when I'm clearly saying Mecca wasn't on the map in that era. Nor did the hijaz region use the aramaic alphabet at that time.
Did you not say ... and I quote
"A King conquering Mecca would most likely have made mention of it if the hadith were true."
You then obviously ARE assuming that this rock inscription has something to do with that expedition.