Meaning of Kitabun in Chapter 41:3
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Harmony be with you,
You are welcome. People generally have problems accepting what I am "preaching" on this forum since it is regarded as highly controversial. Basically it is like if I propagated a different faith. It has been called wishful thinking, and my own whims and desires and God knows what. If you ask me I am simply unbiased, ...
Thank you Man of Faith I think it is because I am unbiased as well, that your solution to my problem seems to fall exactly into place like a puzzle...
Please be so kind and also translate and explain Chapter 22 "dhlika l-kitbu" which seems to mean "That Book..." but is usually translated as "This Book..."
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Knoweldge is acquired
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By observation;
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From a book.
Encyclopedia Britannica describes a book
"A book may be defined, therefore, as a written (or printed) message of considerable length, meant for public circulation and recorded on materials that are light yet durable enough to afford comparatively easy portability. Its primary purpose is to announce, expound, preserve, and transmit knowledge and information between people, depending on the twin faculties of portability and permanence. Books have attended the preservation and dissemination of knowledge in every literate society."
When a person-a teacher teaches the book, it means it is not his knowledge. He is only relaying it.
Mazhar,
But, from where I stand, as ex Christian, neither Jesus nor Mohammed had a Book from which to teach because
- Then we would still have had Jesus' Book and not differing Gospels all trying to portray what Jesus most probably said.
- We would have had Mohammed's Book from which he taught and we would not have had to struggle understanding the Quran and most of all we would not have had all these differing English translations...
Do'nt you think...?
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What is the need to play with words which are already semantifically well defined and explicitly understood.
May I say the same to you. Why do you play with words that are distorted instead of seeing them for what they really mean, just blindly following like people have done for over one thousand years.
as book is just pathetic in Qur'an. Cannot you see this yourself?
Book and knowledge are two "concepts". They are related, but are not interchangeable. Qur'aan is introduced as the book.
Wrong. Qur'an is introduced as knowledge. The Qur'an word means book in descriptive means. A recitation can be recorded either on paper or abstractly as memorization. Allah chooses to use as abstract terminology as possible in Qur'an just for the square-minded humans should not succumb to physical relationship to things.
A book is the entity as to which the knowledge is attached in written form. A book contains the exact wordings and cannot be changed without altering the original text. Knowledge/information is not concrete but can be paraphrased and explained in a variety of ways, with many different ways of elaboration towards it.
You have an example here
2740 And one who had knowledge from the Book had a knowledgeable understanding said ?I will bring it to you before you blink.? So when he saw it resting before him, he said ?This is from the grace of my Lord, so that He tests me whether I am thankful or whether I reject. As for he who is thankful, he is thankful for himself, and as for he who rejects, then my Lord is Rich, Bountiful.?
What kind of book do you think will help this person here? The person is rather understanding of knowledge or simply being a knowledgeable/insightful person. Qur'an was not revealed at the time of Solomon, so what kind of book do you expect that helped the person here. The answer is that 'al-ketaab' is referring to the understanding of this person who replied who has knowledge/insight. Although the literal interpretation should be "understanding from knowledge". I.e. the person was wise and knowledgeable.
Al-Ketaab is just an innocent word being hijacked in this scripture to be almost revered and has a general meaning.
244 Do you exhort the people to do good, but forget yourselves, while you are reciting the Book conveying knowledge? Do you not comprehend?
Conveying knowledge ( َ is simply teaching by other words in English. Even ought to take an objective form since you have the objectifier in it, i.e. conveyors of knowledge.
285 But then here you are killing exhorting each other and expelling a group of you from their homes; you act towards them with evil and animosity. And if they come to you as prisoners, you ransom them while it was unlawful for you to expel them! Do you believe acknowledge part of the Book knowledge and disbelieve in fabricate/produce a (another) part? The punishment for those among you who do so is humiliation in this worldly life, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be delivered to the most severe retribution. God is not unaware of what you all do.
289 And when a Book knowledge came to them from God, authenticating what is with them; while before that they were mocking those who rejected fabricated; so when what they knew came to them, they fabricated with it! The curse of God be upon the rejecters fabricators.
2105 Neither do those who have rejected fabricated from among the people of the Book knowledge scholars, nor from among the polytheists sectarians, wish that any good comes down to you from your Lord. But God chooses with His mercy whom He wishes; and from God is the greatest grace.
Ahl Al-kitab ( ِ sounds like someone who is a scholar by the way. "People of the book" is just a lame excuse of interpretation and translation anyway, but I suppose you cannot see this through the taint of pride.
2109 Many of the people of the Book scholars have wished that they could return you to being rejecters fabrications after your believing affinity, out of envy from their souls after the truth was made clear to them. You shall forgive them and overlook until God brings His will. God is capable of all things.
2113 And the Jews say ?The Nazarenes have no basis,? and the Nazarenes say ?The Jews have no basis,? while they are both teachers of the knowledge to you! Similarly, those who do not know have said the same thing. God will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection in what they dispute.
2120 Neither the Jews nor the Nazarenes will be pleased with you until you follow their creed. Say ?The guidance is the guidance of God.? And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, then there is none who can help or protect you against God.
2121 Those to whom We gave the Book who follow our knowledge to them, they recite convey it as it truthfully deserves to be recited conveyed; they believe in have affinity with it. As for those who disbelieve in fabricate with it, they are the losers.Notice that 2121 is directly related to 2120. 2121 lacks the linguistic pretext to say TO WHOM.
2129 ?Our Lord, and send among them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite convey to them Your revelations and teach them the Book knowledge and the wisdom, and purify them. You are the Noble, the Wise.?
2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the heaven; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you ?You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple Commandments/Guidelines; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it.? Those who have been given the Book follow knowledge know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
2146 Those to whom We made follow knowledge know it as they know their own children; and a group of them hides the truth while they know.
2151 As We have sent a messenger to you from among yourselves to recite convey Our revelations to you, and purify you, and teach you the Book knowledge and the wisdom, and teach you what you did not know.
Etc, etc... the scripture continues...
And the translation is Monotheist Translation with modifications to correct some errors. It still contains myriad errors.
Have faith
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My two cents on the matter.
Let's consider the time in which Quran was revealed. There were no printed books in the region. People did write but the concept of book was most likely not similar as we know it today. A carving on stone, on leather, in sand, a recitation would most likely all be interpreted as book if they consisted of an elaborate, coherent work - referred to with a title.
This does not negate the Quran today is available as a printed book in Arabic that still contains the original recitation. None of the other scriptures can make the same claim. Neither the jewish or christian scriptures have been preserved in this sense. If you would read them today they would be nothing like the original recitations from those prophets.
Therefor the whole debate wether Kitabun means book or not is highly irrelevant. Quran is still authentic and corresponding with original recitations.
I use the word recitation deliberately. Even when Quran was not revealed entirely, prophet Muhammad was reciting Gods Quran.
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Harmony be with you Saad,
Please be so kind and also translate and explain Chapter 22 "dhlika l-kitbu" which seems to mean "That Book..." but is usually translated as "This Book..."
Well. My translation is entirely different from mainstream translation with another grammar system, so it looks nothing like the traditional one.
21 Be To Thereof
22 Which (to) cause knowledge to be (made) testament to bring affiliation to the conscious ones.EDIT I realized that MOTAQEEN is rather marking consciousness ( Character Express(ed)) as in awareness, like opposite of being blind spiritually.
Sorry, I ran out of time to recheck this draft more than once, but according to me the discourse looks something like this. 21 is part of the scripture and is a secret towards interpreting the whole scripture, hard-coded there from the start without scholars being aware of it.
Have faith
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You have an example here
2740 And one who had knowledge from the Book had a knowledgeable understanding said ?I will bring it to you before you blink.? So when he saw it resting before him, he said ?This is from the grace of my Lord, so that He tests me whether I am thankful or whether I reject. As for he who is thankful, he is thankful for himself, and as for he who rejects, then my Lord is Rich, Bountiful.?
What kind of book do you think will help this person here? The person is rather understanding of knowledge or simply being a knowledgeable/insightful person. Qur'an was not revealed at the time of Solomon, so what kind of book do you expect that helped the person here. The answer is that 'al-ketaab' is referring to the understanding of this person who replied who has knowledge/insight. Although the literal interpretation should be "understanding from knowledge". I.e. the person was wise and knowledgeable.
Al-Ketaab is just an innocent word being hijacked in this scripture to be almost revered and has a general meaning.
What is knowledge?
How is it obtained/what are its sources?
What is understanding? How is it attained/what are its sources?
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Harmony be with you Saad,
Well. My translation is entirely different from mainstream translation with another grammar system, so it looks nothing like the traditional one.
21 Be To Thereof
22 Which (to) cause knowledge to be (made) testament to bring affiliation to the conscious ones.EDIT I realized that MOTAQEEN is rather marking consciousness ( Character Express(ed)) as in awareness, like opposite of being blind spiritually.
Sorry, I ran out of time to recheck this draft more than once, but according to me the discourse looks something like this. 21 is part of the scripture and is a secret towards interpreting the whole scripture, hard-coded there from the start without scholars being aware of it.
Have faith
Please explain to me how understanding requires me to believe it?
285 afatu'minna bibai l-kitbi
If I understand something it doesn't require belief. Therefor the interpretation of MoF does not withstand scrutiny.
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If I understand something it doesn't require belief. Therefor the interpretation of MoF does not withstand scrutiny.
It is of course your choice whether you will accept it or not. It is easy to reject someone's suggestion without scrutiny.
285 afatu'minna bibai l-kitbi
...show affinity about the wholeness of knowledge...
(need to translate the whole passage to make my translation to make sense)
Please explain to me how understanding requires me to believe it?
There is no belief in God's realm, either acceptance/affinity or no acceptance/affinity. But I still do not know what you argue about there.
Amen means general acceptance and affinity. If you reply amen to something you basically say "seconded!".
So please do not laugh before you have jumped across the water.
Have faith
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What is knowledge?
How is it obtained/what are its sources?
What is understanding? How is it attained/what are its sources?
You can learn knowledge through your own empirical studies, reading a book, listening to a source e.g. a teacher or movie, thinking etc etc, but the factor which determines your ability to absorb and assimilate the knowledge is your own mind.
But a book is not synonymous with knowledge. A book does not need to convey knowledge at all, but can spread disinformation, so you in return have false knowledge that is not true. Even a book which is correct and does not spread disinformation can cause you to not absorb any knowledge at all if your mind is not able to comprehend it.
Knowledge is abstract and you can use many different words to convey the same knowledge, while a book is typically compiled in a certain way.
This reasoning can be understood if you study the occurrences of ketab in Qur'an as well.
Have faith
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It is of course your choice whether you will accept it or not. It is easy to reject someone's suggestion without scrutiny.
...show affinity about the wholeness of knowledge...
(need to translate the whole passage to make my translation to make sense)
There is no belief in God's realm, either acceptance/affinity or no acceptance/affinity. But I still do not know what you argue about there.
Amen means general acceptance and affinity. If you reply amen to something you basically say "seconded!".
So please do not laugh before you have jumped across the water.
Have faith
Well then explain to me how it is required to have affinity with your own understanding? This seems like total nonsense to me. My own understanding is intrinsically an affinity of mine. It's my understanding you see. Not someone else's. If you are talking about having affinity with someone else's understanding, then we are talking about belief, no matter how much you want to play with semantics.
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@MoF
I have a feeling you are trying to replace the entire message of Quran with the Greek philosophical idea of Sophia. Certainly philosophy has it's merits but there is not one philosopher in history that hasn't been proven wrong or busted on self-contradiction.
To me it's ironic. Sunnism as we know it today started out as a reaction towards the work of the Mu'tazila. The intermingling of greek philosophy with Quranic understanding by the Mu'tazila provoked such a huge reaction it gave rise to proto-sunnism and later sunnism as we know it today.
History repeating itself. -
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More evidence kitabun speaks about a physical book and not some metaphysical concept
wakitbin masrin f raqqin manshrin
And by (the) Book written in parchment unrolled
This occurrence does not allow any other interpretation but one including a physical, written book.
4053
wa-awrathn ban is'rla l-kitba
and We caused to inherit (the) Children of Israel the Book
It is possible to inherit a book given by God. It is impossible to inherit a non-material property. Eg if kitab would mean knowledge then this would imply all the children of israel were wise and full of knowledge.
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Salamun Alaikum.
244 Do you exhort the people to do good, but forget yourselves, while you are reciting the Book conveying knowledge? Do you not comprehend?
2105 Neither do those who have rejected fabricated from among the people of the Book knowledge scholars, nor from among the polytheists sectarians, wish that any good comes down to you from your Lord. But God chooses with His mercy whom He wishes; and from God is the greatest grace.
2113 And the Jews say ?The Nazarenes have no basis,? and the Nazarenes say ?The Jews have no basis,? while they are both teachers of the knowledge to you! Similarly, those who do not know have said the same thing. God will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection in what they dispute.
2120 Neither the Jews nor the Nazarenes will be pleased with you until you follow their creed. Say ?The guidance is the guidance of God.? And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, then there is none who can help or protect you against God.
2151 As We have sent a messenger to you from among yourselves to recite convey Our revelations to you, and purify you, and teach you the Book knowledge and the wisdom, and teach you what you did not know.
Lots of verses still translated with "LA" as "No/not" MoF? It would be quite interesting to see how these verses would look if you apply your full "creative interpretation" upon them. Why are you using erroneous translations of others, while you know they are wrong?
Kitab (or Book) is not but knowledge in recorded form. So, it is not a rocket science that one would be able to safely replace "book" with "knowledge" ... in most cases. But careful re-examination reveals that instead of just "knowledge", "recorded knowledge" fits much better in many of these verses.
For example in 2740 the person who described / brought Queen Sheba's Dominion to Solomon clearly had prior knowledge about Sheba's dominion from some form of recorded source (i.e. book).
What kind of book do you think will help this person here? The person is rather understanding of knowledge or simply being a knowledgeable/insightful person.
Seriously? Simply a knowledgeable or understanding person can describe the cuture / domain of a foreign country? Someone please inform me about the domain/culture of Qinghai province of China without taking help from any book (recorded knowledge).
2113 And the Jews say ?The Nazarenes have no basis,? and the Nazarenes say ?The Jews have no basis,? while they are both teachers of the knowledge to you! Similarly, those who do not know have said the same thing. God will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection in what they dispute.
Two groups with knowledge can often contradict each other if their knowledge comes from different sources - there is nothing strange/silly about that. It only becomes ridiculous when two groups debate over the knowledge from the same recorded source (i.e. book).
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
... And the translation is Monotheist Translation with modifications to correct some errors. It still contains myriad errors.
Have faith
Man of Faith,
I enjoy your inputs, but I do not quite understand why you recommend the Monotheist Translation because it seems not to reflect anything like your trains of thought?
Do I have the correct Monotheist Translation?
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My two cents on the matter.
...Therefor the whole debate wether Kitabun means book or not is highly irrelevant. Quran is still authentic and corresponding with original recitations.
I use the word recitation deliberately. Even when Quran was not revealed entirely, prophet Muhammad was reciting Gods Quran.
Running let me explain again what my problem is
- We are taught that the Quran is the Speech of Allah.
- If the Quran therefor contains Verse for Verse and Word for Word what Allah said to Mohammed then we run into this problem at the time of Revelation which is generally and realistically given as a period of 23 years, or even if it was revealed all at once, how could Allah already at the time of the revelation of any of the Verses contained in the Quran, have said to Mohammed, to recite to his people about a Book, because the Quran as Book only came into existance when it was bound long after Mohammed death.
Even the peaces of material which was collected containing the Verses for example could at no time before the book was bound, be called Book.
So for the Quran to refer to itself as a Book creates the idea that the compilers and binders of the Quran added or rewrote some Verses and inadvertently gave themselves away by the use of "Book" inside the same Book... or what do you think?
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Harmony be with you Saad,
Well. My translation is entirely different from mainstream translation with another grammar system, so it looks nothing like the traditional one.
21 Be To Thereof
22 Which (to) cause knowledge to be (made) testament to bring affiliation to the conscious ones.EDIT I realized that MOTAQEEN is rather marking consciousness ( Character Express(ed)) as in awareness, like opposite of being blind spiritually.
Sorry, I ran out of time to recheck this draft more than once, but according to me the discourse looks something like this. 21 is part of the scripture and is a secret towards interpreting the whole scripture, hard-coded there from the start without scholars being aware of it.
Have faith
Man of Faith, thank you but you lost me I think it is because you did it in a hurry.
Be so kind and explain it clearer I do not quite get the correlation between your translation here and the Arabic. ;D
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Salam and Peace,
what is underlined is only conjecture, no where in the Great Reading you find such assertion/statement!
The word Quran root Qaf-Ra-hamza, means reading, Quran means Great Reading, or endless Reading.
While Kitabun, is based on root Kaf-Ta-ba, to write, thus kitabun, something written, this imply The Quran was already written in prophete's time, many verses attest this.
Yes kitabun can mean scripture, ahlu alkitab means people of the scriptures, like christians, jewish, and so called muslims.
There was also a thread here that explain Kitab means more widely all Holy Books, because all holy books are in definitive one message, the same for everyone.
Peace
Good thank you Herbman,
Please honor me then also with your translation of "Surah" 2 verse 2 regarding the Arabic which seems to mean "That Book..." as well as your kind explanation of what "that Book refers to.
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But, from where I stand, as ex Christian, neither Jesus nor Mohammed had a Book from which to teach because
Peace Saad Bekker
There were scribes that recorded what they heard, and the original records of Jesus cannot be found.
(Muhammad received revelation in his tongue)
43/3 Surely We have made it an Arabic Quran that you may understand.
(Quran part of another book)
43/4 And indeed it is, in the Mother of the Book with Us, exalted and full of wisdom.
Not yet in book form
Say Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel-- for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's command,
verifying that which is before it and guidance and good news for the believers.Now the question begs, is there a book?
Now the Quran is a book, I have one right here, its not a cat or a bird it's a book, however
the transmission from the Angel to Muhammad was not a book but the revelation which was later
put in book form.God bless you
peace
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Good thank you Herbman,
Please honor me then also with your translation of "Surah" 2 verse 2 regarding the Arabic which seems to mean "That Book..." as well as your kind explanation of what "that Book refers to.
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.002.gif
First word is a demonstrative pronoun and is the subject of nominal sentence. A speaker and author use a demonstrative pronoun to divert and focus the attention of the addressee towards the pointed object, person or concept for assigning it a peculiarity/individuality. Visual axis focused upon an object yields its perfect perception. Therefore, any thing in the reach of the vision that has since been perceived is no more distant irrespective of its distance from the addressee. It stands introduced to the addressee. This demonstrative pronoun is a pointer-introducer of Al-Kitab definite noun signifying a specific known book to the second person-the reader who has either picked it up or to whom it is presented.
The two words do not convey full information for the person who picks it up at his own and to whom it is presented for reading. The book is in the hands of the addressee or is in the process of handing over to him, therefore, it is manifest that the intent of Speaker/Author is not limited to tell him, "This is the Book" or "That is the Book" because he already knows it or is watching it on presentation. The intent is to draw his concentrated attention towards the peculiarity and distinction of its contents-miscellany which he has not yet read and is still distant from his information and perception. This makes him attentive and enthusiastic to hear or read its ascription/predication.
Introduction of Qur'aan The Infinitely Reliable Book