Religion - A view point from logical point of view
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So basically any attempt to make a surah like it would be brushed off as plagiarism from other scriptures, or that it is poetical nonsense. Yeah and how many Arabic scriptures from God do we know about? And you defended the earlier fighting verses as being 'nice poetry'.
I think you are completely misunderstanding me. What earlier fighting verses did I call 'nice poetry'? I would never call any Quranic verse as mere poetry. No, I dont just automatically brush it of. It has to stand up to the challenge and its not a aesthetical literary one like you seem to think it is. Meaning provide a surah from human authorship that has similar literary aesthetic qualities. That does not contradict other surahs that are next to it while still having meaning and possess equal linguistic qualitiy. The challenge is repeated twice, once it mentions a surah like it. The other one mentions a quran like it. This means it's not challenge in style of writing. So far you are only producing either style experiments or isolated surahs. That is not the challenge.
I have seen some passages of interpretations of the Quran of similar quality or completely nonsensical as well. Especially verses containing injustice in it. All of it which are radically supported by many Muslims.
If it's calling for injustice it already fails the quality test.
I never mentioned that we need to interlock the Surah with the rest of the Quran. The challenge considered by many Muslims is to produce a Surah similar to the literary excellence of the Quran, if that is considered accurate. If the linguistic style is on par, the challenge is met.
I know you didn't. But Quran does. The interlocking is one of the proofs of its superior quality. How many verses are repeated in different surahs? How many of them contradict? Zero.
Check out the below two links of Surahs which were forgeries but created problems among Muslims regarding their authenticity
http//answering-islam.org/Quran/Miracle/wilaya.html
http//answering-islam.org/Quran/Miracle/nurain.htmlNot interested looking at forgeries. Why would I waste my time on those? Your point is most likely some were fooled by their aesthetical quality. Again thats not the challenge.
Here is what Edip wrote on his translation of 223 verse, regarding the literary excellence
"...The most popular position among Muslim scholars is that the miracle of the Quran is its literary excellence. This is, however, an imaginary or false claim, since there is no objective or universal criteria for comparing literary texts and thereby preferring one over the other. The miraculous nature of the Quran or the Quran's claim of divine authorship and its universal appeal cannot be relegated merely to the literary taste of those who know Arabic, which may change subjectively. It is impossible to argue that the Quran is divine by comparing its literary aspects to those of Al-Mutanabbi, Taha Hussain or any other Arabic literary work. Bukhari and Ibn Hanbal, the two so-called authentic hadith collections of Sunnism, tacitly confess the impossibility of distinguishing the Quranic statements from man-made literary works since they narrate a text, which is still uttered by millions of Sunni mushriks in ?bonus? prayers called nawafil. According to their report, Ibn Masud, one of the most prominent comrades of prophet Muhammed, and allegedly one of the most prolific sources of hadith, had included that prayer to his Quran as an independent chapter while expunging the last two chapters. The claim of medieval Sunni and Shiite sources regarding the requirement for two witnesses for each verse to authenticate their divine nature, regardless of the truth-value of the claim, is another acknowledgment of their inability to distinguish a Quranic revelation from fabricated statements via the so-called literary excellence criterion..."
I agree with Edip on that. I don't see what I'm saying differently?
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I feel like we have an agreement on the point that the challenge is not a literary one? So why are you arguing with me? I dont get this.
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Then what is the challenge talking about, according to you? The mathematical structure of the Quran?
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- Non-contradiction in it's entirety.
- Universal truth it contains throughout all surahs.
- While being a non-chronological work that was delivered verbally (recited), it does not contain any inconsistency when it deals with a same topic again x number of verses/surahs later.
The experiments at meeting the challenge fail at
- They are isolated surahs. It's not difficult to contradict within one surah. Anyone can do that.
- I dont need to explain why those texts fail here as well. They don't appeal globally as Quran does.
- The attempts were made on paper, possibly by a collaboration. Not delivered verbally without a design on paper first.
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I would like to elaborate on point 2. I understand thats not a measurable criterion. Though it is an objective mechanism in the Quran. When you are misinterpreting a verse all you need to do is read more verses dealing with the topic and see if your interpretation is still compatible with it. Quran has a miraculous mechanism of confronting the reader with the misconceptions that originated in their own minds. This makes it a work that is universally capable of confronting anyone in the world with their own shortcomings and subjective truths. Even if you are making laws or the president of the United States. Quran will call you out on what you are doing and there is no hiding it. Dito for the fabricators of hadith. This explains the allergic reaction of those who disbelieve when Quran is recited. No other book possesses that quality.
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The criteria differ slightly in the two verses
223 Where the challenge is surah => the challenge is to meet this challenge on the spot, by recitation.
1788 Where the challenge is Quran => the challenge can be met written, they will still fail. Even after hundreds of years this challenge has not been met. Maybe some of us who doubt still need some more time?
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An addendum to the debate on the verses dealing with fighting and killing. If you pay attention to the source texts they are clearly speaking about a state of war. The mistake is to project the labels used in those verses to contexts that don't involve war. This is one of the reasons I highly object to the fascist 5 types of people article on this websites index http//free-minds.org/5-types-people-quran
These aren't 5 types of people. They are five type of attitudes that can occur in any type of human. Eg you can be a polytheist now, Quran is not commanding anyone of the muslims to kill you. But if you chose to be a polytheist in the time of muhammad when you declared open war against him and God, your life is not safe anymore as God instructs.
Outside the context of war, we are instructed to live and let live concerning anyone regardless of how you categorize them.
There is a real danger within this movement that claims to have the true Islam based on Quran only to discriminate people on standards that only exist in their own minds. The QRT of Edip Yuskel still contains old hadith (like the homophobic interpretations) and new hadith (code 19).
I'm not optimistic at all. And this forum makes me frown more often then smile.
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https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJrfoWWlYCc#t=683
Please focus on the part (starting from minute 600) where he talks about the religion and the their books in particular and the part that every one
claims to have been holding the right book/religion.My logic tells me that he is not all wrong in his claims or deduction. What is your opinion? Because whether we agree or not
religion plays central role in such atrocities (used directly or indirectly).Regards
I know Cenk Uygur. Pay in mind this guy is denying the Turkish committed genocide on armenians in the previous century. He was also running from the Sunni interpretation of Islam. He's allergic to faith by any definition and has been traumatized by the consequences of Turkish sectarianism. He's incapable of distincting religion from sects. Therefor he's a full blown atheist now. I think his understanding of Islam is as limited as that of the soldiers in IS.
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Peace Runninglikezebras.
Please stay optimistic. May be you read/seen this?
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iaSY4BB-2Q
Just to add more hadiths! or are they?
The second coming is here. Qoran s second coming for this generation and the next ones.
Contrary to common belief of a second coming of a "messenger/mehdi/Jesus...The second coming is Qoran(GOD S message) with the "proof" - Dhikr_( Saad, and the Qoran that contains the proof?!!!!)GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Hello runninglikezebras,
An addendum to the debate on the verses dealing with fighting and killing. If you pay attention to the source texts they are clearly speaking about a state of war. The mistake is to project the labels used in those verses to contexts that don't involve war. This is one of the reasons I highly object to the fascist 5 types of people article on this websites index http//free-minds.org/5-types-people-quran
These aren't 5 types of people. They are five type of attitudes that can occur in any type of human. Eg you can be a polytheist now, Quran is not commanding anyone of the muslims to kill you. But if you chose to be a polytheist in the time of muhammad when you declared open war against him and God, your life is not safe anymore as God instructs.
Yeah the verses are dealing with war conditions where the polytheists broke the treaty, such as the Battle of Hunayn. Although I still have issues with the Surah.
I do not understand the excessive use of the words "belief" and "rejection", and some extent of compulsion in religion.
923 O you who believe, do not take your fathers nor brothers as allies if they prefer rejection to belief. And whoever of you takes them as such, then these are the wicked.
Calling polytheists as impure
928 O you who believe, the polytheists are impure, so let them not approach the Restricted Temple after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
These verses can easily be used to also defend the 'Holy Jihad' as is done by many Muslims
938 O you who believe, what is wrong with you when you are told "Mobilize in the cause of God," you become heavy on the earth. Have you become content with this worldly life over the Hereafter? The enjoyment of this worldly life compared to the Hereafter is nothing.
941 March forth in light gear or heavy gear, and strive with your money and lives in the cause of God. That is best if you knew.
9111 God has purchased from those who acknowledge their very lives and their wealth; that they will have paradise. They fight in the cause of God so they kill and are killed. A promise that is true upon Him in the Torah, the Injeel and the Quran. Whoever fulfills his pledge to God, then have good news of the deal which you concluded with. Such is the supreme success.
Insulting the Nomads
997 The Nomads are the worst in rejection and hypocrisy, and more likely not to know the boundaries of what God has sent down upon His messenger. God is Knower, Wise.
This verse, even if it may try to tell the reader to abstain from making religious leaders as authorities besides God, still it also promotes hatred towards the Jews and the Christians as well
930 The Jews said, "Ezra is God's son," and the Nazarenes said, "The Messiah is God's son." Such is their utterances with their mouths; they imitate the sayings of those who rejected before them. God's curse be on them. How deviated are their minds!
In the verses 911, 984, 999, Edip Yuksel translated the word 'Salah' as support, instead of contact prayer, unlike The Monotheist translation. That should also give hints to us that the word Salah has been misinterpreted elsewhere also, most likely. It doesn't look right that God would be so obsessed with ritual prayers more than things like good behavior or so.
Peace,
Samira
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By the way it sort of occurred to me, just saying, in the case of the Israelis, if they were indeed attacked by Hamas from several public areas in Gaza, using people as human shields, then the Israelis were right in their way in warning the Gaza civilians before destroying their homes, hospitals, etc, and killing the people wherever they found them, since they were acting in self-defense and the Gaza people violated the peace first, especially seeing these verses which they could also take example from, following The Golden-plated Brazen Rule
95 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and they hold the contact prayer, and they contribute towards purification, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
9123 O you who believe, fight those who are around you of the rejecters, and let them find strength in you; and know that God is with the righteous.
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By the way it sort of occurred to me, just saying, in the case of the Israelis, if they were indeed attacked by Hamas from several public areas in Gaza, using people as human shields, then the Israelis were right in their way in warning the Gaza civilians before destroying their homes, hospitals, etc, and killing the people wherever they found them, since they were acting in self-defense and the Gaza people violated the peace first, especially seeing these verses which they could also take example from, following The Golden-plated Brazen Rule
So you're saying that Israel has the right to bomb Gaza (which kills plenty of civilians while destroying homes) just because a militia group fired some missiles at Israhell?
The people of Gaza never violated any peace first. There is this misconception that Hamas somehow fires missiles randomly at Israel which is not true at all. Prior to the missiles being fired at Israel - Israel always arrests Hamas members which is why Hamas decides to fire missiles as a response. That's one of the reasons. Another one is the fact that the Israelies are occupying Palestine especially the West Bank were Palestinian homes are being bulldozed and replaced with 'Jewish' settlements. Israel must be really happy on the fact it can use the 'Human shield' excuse for every civilian it kills. Israelies are a bunch of theorist nutjobs that comes up with the worst theories ever. Israelies have killed each more than Hamas has ever killed Israelies. If a Palestinian was to kill an Israeli he would have his/her home bulldozed while getting executed but if an Israeli kills a Palestinian he/she only gets jail. That's an example of Israeli stupidity. Israel never acts in self-defense - No instead Israel always finds some way to provoke the Palestinians by either arresting some Palestinian randomly or having one of its extremists killing a Palestinian and after a Palestinian militia group responds whether it be the PLO or Hamas then Israel begins to cry about how a recent militia group fired missiles at its land because It's a 'Jewish' homeland and suddenly it's all on the news were people assume that the militia group started it.
Israeli warcrime
http//4.bp.blogspot.com/_rl0N1IJv-p8/SWv8D-CLGcI/AAAAAAAAEKs/VuD8p4HGe9E/s400/006+see+Israel+what+you+done+to+a+Palestinian+child.jpg (18+ Brutal picture)
Also the Israelies are the aggressors and not the Palestinians. The Israelies were orginally European Jewish Immigrants that were forced into Palestine by the British empire- These European Jewish Immigrants formed their own Jewish nationalist groups in Palestine and terrorized the Palestinian Arabs. The Palestinian Arabs(Consisting of both Palestinian Christians and Muslims) launched several revolts against the British empire as a response to the occupation and the forced Immigration of European Jews. Sadly more and more European Jews were pumped into Palestine by the British empire. Later on these European Jews began to terrorize the Arab Jews in the Arab countries so they could bring them to Israel because they needed Arab Jews to contribute in their moronic society. A Jewish state has absolutely NO right to exist- Jews have no culture, language or traditions of their own. What many must understand is that 'Jew' is no ethnicity - A Jew is an an adherent of Judaism, and Judaism is definently not an ethnicity or even a nationality- It's a religion started by an Israelite and over the thousands of years that have gone by many people converted to Judaism. Hebrew is not a Jewish language in the same way Arabic is not a Muslim language. Hebrew is an Israelite language which was spoken by Moses(An Israelite Jew). If Moses were to become an atheist, he'd be known as an Israelite atheist and not as an Israelite Jew atheist or whatever. A Palestinian is MORE likely to be the native of Palestine than a European Jew.
95 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and they hold the contact prayer, and they contribute towards purification, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
It's obvious that this verse is refering to the Pagans in Mecca.
Israel = Islamic State = Terrorism.
http//s9.postimg.org/p06m73zwf/Btz_Nt1_MIc_AACCNk.jpg
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Israel never acts in self-defense - No instead Israel always finds some way to provoke the Palestinians by either arresting randomly somebody or having one of its extremists killing a Palestinian and after a Palestinian militia group responds whether it be the PLO or Hamas then Israel begins to cry about how a recent militia group fired missiles at its land because It's a 'Jewish' homeland and suddenly it's all on the news were people assume that the militia group started it.
You can't really blame them, Israel is surrounded by people who wants to kill/nuke all of them if they can. The hatred of Jews is deeply rooted among Muslims, even those who did not meet any. Palestinians had rather destroy Israel once and for all than have a discussion with them, and make a treaty with them on distribution of lands and co-exist peacefully. Till they can manage this peace with the Jews they will most likely keep suffering and having their economy going downhill.
A Jewish state has absolutely NO right to exist- Jews have no culture, language or traditions of their own. What many must understand is that 'Jew' is no ethnicity - A Jew is an an adherent of Judaism, and Judaism is definently not an ethnicity or even a nationality- It's a religion started by an Israelite and over the thousands of years that have gone by many people converted to Judaism.
I thought the place in Palestine was originally the homeland of Jews, who are mainly Israelis, a few thousand years ago? Islam and history also proves it. And Palestine did not even exist back then, it is Palestinians who are mainly a combination of other races.
Whatever it is, Jews are basically homeless now, after not having a land of their own for so much of time in history. Palestine is big enough I believe, even if their intrusion was uncalled for and perhaps unfair to begin with. Palestinians could still have managed to accommodate them through some level of empathy and co-exist peacefully. Especially after seeing that bloody wars do not avail them. But then Palestinians are still held on the idea that one day Israel would be nuked and destroyed once and for all. Israel knows this all too well, that's why they are being very careful regarding their defense system (which costs them much of their money) and arresting or executing Palestinians, because they know how they plot in turn for their demise and hate them in their hearts and bones. Much of the hate is also religious based.
It's obvious that this verse is refering to the Pagans in Mecca.
Yeah, and the reason why it exists in the Quran in the first place is to give lessons to the rest of the Muslim believers. The 'kill them wherever you find them' I believe is the worst statement possible, and very anti-humanistic, present in a holy book. We don't need so much of graphic details on what actually happens during a war time.
Peace,
Samira
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peace Samira1234,
Do you often quote statements out of context?
Yeah, and the reason why it exists in the Quran in the first place is to give lessons to the rest of the Muslim believers. The 'kill them wherever you find them' I believe is the worst statement possible, and very anti-humanistic, present in a holy book.
95 begins with "fa" which is a resumption particle, i.e. it resumes what it was talking about. If you, and others, bothered to read the context you might realise the conditional circumstances of the statement.
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=9&verse=5#(951)
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm -
You can't really blame them, Israel is surrounded by people who wants to kill/nuke all of them if they can. The hatred of Jews is deeply rooted among Muslims, even those who did not meet any. Palestinians had rather destroy Israel once and for all than have a discussion with them, and make a treaty with them on distribution of lands and co-exist peacefully. Till they can manage this peace with the Jews they will most likely keep suffering and having their economy going downhill.
I thought the place in Palestine was originally the homeland of Jews, who are mainly Israelis, a few thousand years ago? Islam and history also proves it. And Palestine did not even exist back then, it is Palestinians who are mainly a combination of other races.
Whatever it is, Jews are basically homeless now, after not having a land of their own for so much of time in history. Palestine is big enough I believe, even if their intrusion was uncalled for and perhaps unfair to begin with. Palestinians could still have managed to accommodate them through some level of empathy and co-exist peacefully. Especially after seeing that bloody wars do not avail them. But then Palestinians are still held on the idea that one day Israel would be nuked and destroyed once and for all. Israel knows this all too well, that's why they are being very careful regarding their defense system (which costs them much of their money) and arresting or executing Palestinians, because they know how they plot in turn for their demise and hate them in their hearts and bones. Much of the hate is also religious based.
Yeah, and the reason why it exists in the Quran in the first place is to give lessons to the rest of the Muslim believers. The 'kill them wherever you find them' I believe is the worst statement possible, and very anti-humanistic, present in a holy book. We don't need so much of graphic details on what actually happens during a war time.
Peace,
Samira
You can't really blame them, Israel is surrounded by people who wants to kill/nuke all of them if they can. The hatred of Jews is deeply rooted among Muslims, even those who did not meet any. Palestinians had rather destroy Israel once and for all than have a discussion with them, and make a treaty with them on distribution of lands and co-exist peacefully. Till they can manage this peace with the Jews they will most likely keep suffering and having their economy going downhill.
Israel is not surrounded by 'evil MOOZLEM HORDES' that wants to destroy it. Most groups that opposes Israel are secular Arab nationalist groups(Many of them base their ideology on Communism) that tend to sometimes mix Arab nationalism with Islam which is sad. The PFLP(Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine) was started by a Palestinian Christian. Ba'athism was started by Palestinian Christian along with a Muslim and an atheist. Many Arab Christians fought against Israel too. Many Arabs who were fighting Israel during 1973 and 1948 were Arabs of many religions. Arab- Druze, Christian and Muslims attacked Israeli forces on sight. Many Arab nationalist groups don't care about Israel but they want give the Palestinians their land back and they don't like it when the Israelies occupy Palestine. Hey, Israel can go and occupy the US or a country in Europe and the Arab nationalist groups or the neighboors of Palestine will not care anymore. It's simple; You occupy Palestine and you'll get hundreds of enemies. The Palestinians were not Arabized for nothing- They are a part of our 'brethren'. If the Europeans harm them then the Europeans will be wiped off the map.
Israel is not 'surrounded' by anybody. Israelies don't belong in the Middle-east anyway; They're European/Soviet Jews that should have stayed in Europe. People should stop acting as if Israel is surrounded by anybody- The fact is that Israelies have no right to be in the Levant in the first place. And it's no wonder that many Middle-eastern nations want to get rid of Israel because it's occupying Palestinian land.
I strong support in removing Israel. I absolutely see no reason for why Israel(A Jewish homeland) should exist. I'll oppose any religious homelands(Whether it be 'Jewish' or 'Muslim' despite how many times they pretend to be 'democratic' or 'secular'. Two examples of religious homeland is Israel and the Islamic State. You have Israel that is a 'Jewish' homeland in the same way the Islamic State is a 'muslim' homeland (It has nothing to do with Muslims). I'm 110% anti-Jewish homeland(NOT Anti-semite though - I'm semite myself) and 110% anti-ISIS/anti-Islamic homeland. 'Jew' is no ethnicity or even a nationality- It's equally as terrible as the Islamic State. The only difference is? Israel has managed to sugarcoat its state and history by acting 'democratic' while trying to fool the Westerners that it's a 'democratic' nation and that it always tries to reduce 'causilities' although it doesn't. If you criticize Israel, you'll be called an anti-semite meanwhile Israel cooperates with Nazi/Fasict right-wing political parties in Europe. What a joke Israel and its fanboys are!
Till they can manage this peace with the Jews they will most likely keep suffering and having their economy going downhill.
Not really. It's the failure of the Arab governments to help Palestine. We have enough oil to annilihate Israel and NATO combined but instead Arab oil-money goes to European prostitutes, some South-Asian countries, more mosques in Europe and worst of all to Wahabbism. When the Arab world adopts nationalism like it used to do once then Israel will vanish from the Middle-east. The Western nations don't want this- They want Shariah law in the Arab countries which is why they support Wahabbism(A radical primitive religious ideology). Rather for the Arab countries to send billions of dollars to Gaza they prefer to put money on the South-Asian countries that don't really deserve that oil-money. The oil-money should go to health, science and education in the Arab countries and not to the South-Asian countries. But our countries are run by dictators/clowns that have taken over the oil-fields. It's not suprising if the oil-money is going to European prostitutes for Jabba- Erm I mean Abdullah. The Arab countries getting rid of monarcy dictatorship while establishing democracy in the proccess and Ron paul being elected for president will remove Israel 100% from the Middle-east which is perfect. Today the US VETOEs all the resolutions being put on Israel(which is how Israel gets away with all its crimes) meanwhile it sends $3 billions of dollars a year to Israel.
The Arabs have enough oil to annilihate Israel and NATO combined. We have enough oil to put us ahead of Europe ten times. There are many Arab scientists living in the US which would be great if they came back and contributed for their own countries instead. The US is too pathetic that feeds on Middle-eastern Immigration. Some people working at NASA are Iranians like Firouz Naderi or Bobak Ferdowsi. There are many Arab scientists in the US; these people should come back to their Arab countries and let the West rot. Iran which is not an Arab country has brilliant people living in the West. Sadly today the Gulf-countries are trying to attack Iran by creating sectarian wars with their oil-money. It's sad that oil-money is given to a bunch of barbarians (The Royal family). The Royal family has contributed ZERO to the Arab world and is only destroying the Arab world by trying to attack Iran, allowing the Europeans to walk into the Arab world, funding terrorism in the Arab countries, sending resources to the South-Asian countries and not the other Arab countries and so on. The Arab countries could easily annilihate Israel.
Rather for the Arab countries to send oil-money to the children of Africa or the Syrian/Palestinian refugees they prefer to send it to warmongering European/ American savages(The same moronic Europeans and Americans that created Israel). But it's not only the fact that the oil-money goes to the wrong people but also to the wrong things. The Saudi regime spends $3 billions of dollars a year on Wahabbism which is ruining Saudi-Arabia or the fact that the Saudi regime spends billions of dollars on more mosques in Europe which only benefits the European economy. The Europeans don't want that the Arab countries to become democratic and controlled by nationalism because then Europe would loose billions of dollars worth of contract and the Arab countries would be ahead of the European countries ten times.
I thought the place in Palestine was originally the homeland of Jews, who are mainly Israelis, a few thousand years ago? Islam and history also proves it. And Palestine did not even exist back then, it is Palestinians who are mainly a combination of other races.
It's not the ORGINAL homeland of the Jews but rather the orginal homeland for the ISRAELITES. And the Jews are not mainly Israelies- I'd say that there are more Jews in the US than in Israel. Islam and history does not prove that the Israelies/Jews belong in Israel at all. The Qur'an does not mention(Not even once) a 'Jewish' homeland or an 'Israeli' homeland. You need to learn the difference between 'Israelites', 'Jews' and 'Israelies'. Sadly many people assume that 'Jew' and 'Israelite' or 'Israeli' and 'Israelite' is the same which is wrong. Saying that all Jews belong in Israel is like saying that all Muslims belong in Saudi-Arabia.
Nowhere does the Qur'an mention the ISRAELIES or the JEWS.. It mentions an ISRAELITE homeland(A Middle-eastern tribe that existed thousands of years ago long before these Euro trash showed up). Quite hilariously, the term 'Israeli' is only a European parody on the Israelites.
From the Qur'an
O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and be faithful to (your) covenant with Me, I will fulfill (My) covenant with you; and of Me, Me alone, should you be afraid.
O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations.
And We gave Musa the Book and made it a guidance to the children of Israel, saying Do not take a protector besides Me;
And We had made known to the children of Israel in the Book Most certainly you will make mischief in the land twice, and most certainly you will behave insolently with great insolence.
And certainly We gave Musa nine clear signs; so ask the children of Israel. When he came to them, Firon said to him Most surely I deem you, O Musa, to be a man deprived of reason.
And We said to the Israelites after him Dwell in the land and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment.
Conclusion Nowhere does the Qur'an mention the ISRAELIES or the JEWS.. So no Allah was not a Zionist because he does not support a Jewish homeland and neither did he support an Israeli homeland.. He rather supported an ISRAELITE homeland according to the Qur'an. Allah refers to the Israelites as 'the children of Israel' several times in the Qur'an. The children of Israel were the Israelites in the same way the children of America were its citizens i.e the Americans. ABSOLUTELY nowhere does God mention a Jewish homeland or an Israeli homeland - No he/she/whatever mentions an ISRAELITE homeland instead.
And NOT ALL Israelites were Jews- Many Israelites left their religion to avoid being killed by either the Roman empire or the European Crusaders.
And Palestine did not even exist back then, it is Palestinians who are mainly a combination of other races.
The same thing can be said about Israel. The land was orginally called Canaan and Israel did not even exist back then.
Whatever it is, Jews are basically homeless now, after not having a land of their own for so much of time in history. Palestine is big enough I believe, even if their intrusion was uncalled for and perhaps unfair to begin with. Palestinians could still have managed to accommodate them through some level of empathy and co-exist peacefully. Especially after seeing that bloody wars do not avail them. But then Palestinians are still held on the idea that one day Israel would be nuked and destroyed once and for all. Israel knows this all too well, that's why they are being very careful regarding their defense system (which costs them much of their money) and arresting or executing Palestinians, because they know how they plot in turn for their demise and hate them in their hearts and bones. Much of the hate is also religious based.
The Jews do have several lands; It's the European countries and Russia. The first prime-minister of Israel was not even born in Palestine and carried 4 citizenships; two of them were from Soviet Russia and the UK. A European Jew belongs in Europe. A Middle-eastern Jew belongs in the Middle-east(Not necessarily in Palestine). All Jews don't belong in one land. They don't have their own culture, language or traditions. What they speak today is an Israelite language that existed thousands of years ago until it died out as other factions conquered Palestine finally by the Arabs. Prior to the independance of Israel many Jews carried citizenships in their own countries therefor they did have a homeland. They are not 'homeless' people- Many of them even have dual-citizenships today.
And there is no win in nuking Israel because it resites like a parasite in Palestine. It would only harm the Palestinians. On the otherhand Israel has a policy that allows them to nuke any country they are at war with creating something similiar to Hiroshima. This is why Israel doesn't want Iran to obtain nukes because if Iran obtains nukes then what will Israel be able to scare Iran with? Nothing. It's simple- Israel launches a nuke at Iran and Iran will do the same. Unlike Iran, Israel has not signed the treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and carries over two hundred nukes therefor Iran has more right to build nukes than Israel. Israels fasicst right-wing politic is based on Jewish nutjobs that wants war- Especially like that moronic Israeli politician that said that all Palestinian mothers should be killed.
Let's make this clear
A European Jew belongs in EUROPE and not Palestine.
A Palestinian Muslim belongs in PALESTINE.
An American Muslim belongs in America and not in Saudi-Arabia.
Jews have no culture, language or history of their own. Hebrew is not a Jewish language but rather an Israelite language which was spoken by Moses(An Israelite Jew). 'Jew' is no ethnicity or even a nationality. A Jew is an adherent of Judaism, and Judaism is definently not an ethinicty or a nationality. It's a religion started by an Israelite and over the thousands of years that have gone by many people converted to Judaism. On wikipedia it says that Jewish converts have equally as high status as those who are born as Jews. So I can convert to Judaism anyday and my homeland will be in Palestine LOL.
it is Palestinians who are mainly a combination of other races.
+1 You're correct- The Palestinians are a combination of other races(Phonecians, Canaanites, Israelites, Edomites, etc) from the levant but all these races are the same people. They were semites and spoke languages that had the same root
http//s28.postimg.org/wodtj7izx/8_V3_BXD0.png
Palestinian villagers especially in Northern Palestine for hundreds of years and until today use the name Cana?an for their children(e.g http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawfiq_Canaan). Second, designs on the cloths of villagers (the folkloric symbols) are Canaanitic symbols (and are shared by location and by locals who are both Christian and Muslim). Jews converting to Christianity and Christians converting to Islam as major trends during the establishment of these religions is also well documented. Genetic analysis suggests that a majority of the Muslims of Palestine, inclusive of Arab citizens of Israel, are descendants of Christians, Jews and other earlier inhabitants of the southern Levant whose core may reach back to prehistoric times. Note that the surname 'Canaan' (also known as Kanaan) is a very common surname in the levant especially in Palestine, Syria and Jordan.
The Palestinians are native to their land - They are a mix of people that have been in Palestine since the Canaanites. There is this Western myth that the Jews left therefor Palestine was 'emptied' by its population which is not true at all. There is no archaeological evidence that all Israelite Jews left Palestine and there is absolutely no evidence that the Jews even left for Europe. Many Israelite Jews who rebelled against the Romans were taken as slaves(I read that 97000 Israelite Jews were taken as slaves) in Jerusalem until they were liberated by the Arabs and also by other previous armies. Also I'd say that many Israelite Jews left Judaism to avoid being expelled from their homes. Not to mention, the Romans were actually trying to push their religion on the Jews because it would make the Jews intergrate a lot more easier into the Roman society which would prevent a rebellion. So there is no doubt that many Israelite Jews left their religion to convert to another therefor they were no longer known as 'Jews' and not even 'Israelites' because they changed their identity.
The Arabs arabized almost the entire Middle-east and parts of Africa too
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabization
The Israelites were finally Arabized by Arab conquerers who conquered Jerusalem from the Romans and lifted the bann on the Israelite Jews allowing the Israelite Jews to safely return.
Yeah, and the reason why it exists in the Quran in the first place is to give lessons to the rest of the Muslim believers. The 'kill them wherever you find them' I believe is the worst statement possible, and very anti-humanistic, present in a holy book. We don't need so much of graphic details on what actually happens during a war time.
All religions carries mistakes; no one is better than the other. You shouldn't think you'll find any better in the Torah or the Bible infact you find worse. And I really don't understand why you're trying to defend Israel let alone making excuses for them. How would you feel if somebody decided to occupy your country and ruin the lives of your inhabitants just so they could establish a religious homeland there? Many people who want a Jewish homeland in the Middle-east needs to stop being so hypocritical. Want a religious homeland? Give them your own homeland instead. Sadly many Western cowards support either Israel or the Islamic State while they live in the West. They are the biggest enemies to the Arab world IMO. But it's not only in the West- Even in the Arab countries there are many Europeans especially the ambassadors whose countries have not yet taken responsibility in preventing the jihadists from joining the Islamic State therefor making the European countries equally as responsible.
Israel is good on making itself look like as if it's being attacked by 'Muslim hordes'. This is a way for Israel to attract more Muslimphobes on its side. It's no wonder that many right-wing European political parties(That all have their origin based on Nazism - The same ideology that wiped out 6 million EUROPEAN Jews) support Israel.
I'm a secular Muslim and I believe in a secular Islam and I oppose Israel, the Islamic State and any other religious homeland to the core. It's very Muslim to oppose Israel, why? Because Israel wants to establish a 'Jewish' homeland on another peoples homeland. If people had some common sense regardless if Muslim or not they'd oppose Israel too. I don't support Palestine because the majority Palestinians are Muslims, I support Palestine because I believe that the Palestinians are the natives of the land; they have been Arabized therefor loosing their original identities. People must know that Arab is not equivalent to Jew. Arabs are people of diverse religions (including Jewish). Anybody who speaks Arabic is an Arab. Some are descendents from Canaanites, some from Berber or Pharaonites or Israelites.
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Hello runninglikezebras,
Yeah the verses are dealing with war conditions where the polytheists broke the treaty, such as the Battle of Hunayn. Although I still have issues with the Surah.
I do not understand the excessive use of the words "belief" and "rejection", and some extent of compulsion in religion.
923 O you who believe, do not take your fathers nor brothers as allies if they prefer rejection to belief. And whoever of you takes them as such, then these are the wicked.
I'm glad we established these verses speak of state of war. Now, it's time to establish another fact before we can understand these verses. God is protecting the believers. In this verse God protects the believers from making the mistake of taking family as allies even though they are enemies to them. This protects them from getting stabbed in the back. It's a natural mistake to make. My family will never hurt me is not always true. God warns them for this. For in a time of war it's a matter of life and death. This is similar to what God tells us in the highly controversial 434. It's not an instruction to punish anyone. It's to protect the believer from getting involved in the 'fahisha' (crimes vs God of the highest degree) of their partner. It's a sound advice. How many times do you see in the news murderers in which the partner acts like she or he never was fully aware while staying with the offender? Often they get sentenced as well for complicity. These are verses offering protection and sound advice to prevent you as a believer to get stuck into a situation that could end your life or get you into other trouble you don't deserve.
Calling polytheists as impure
928 O you who believe, the polytheists are impure, so let them not approach the Restricted Temple after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
Again this verse reveals itself if you look at it from the point of view of offered protection to the believers by God. God knows the polytheists will never stop trying to reimplement their polytheism even after being defeated. It's sound advice not to let the polytheists take part in the affairs that happen inside the restricted temple. They will try to manipulate it and return it to it's earlier polytheistic state.
In neither of these verses there is compulsion. No one is forced into anything.
These verses can easily be used to also defend the 'Holy Jihad' as is done by many Muslims
938 O you who believe, what is wrong with you when you are told "Mobilize in the cause of God," you become heavy on the earth. Have you become content with this worldly life over the Hereafter? The enjoyment of this worldly life compared to the Hereafter is nothing.
941 March forth in light gear or heavy gear, and strive with your money and lives in the cause of God. That is best if you knew.
9111 God has purchased from those who acknowledge their very lives and their wealth; that they will have paradise. They fight in the cause of God so they kill and are killed. A promise that is true upon Him in the Torah, the Injeel and the Quran. Whoever fulfills his pledge to God, then have good news of the deal which you concluded with. Such is the supreme success.
Sure they can be misinterpreted. Especially if you leave the context out, like you are demonstrating here. None of these verses entitle you to start a war with anyone on religious grounds. They are self-defense measures. They are motivating speeches for when morale is low and encouraging the faithful to not give up and let the aggressors win the battle.
Insulting the Nomads
997 The Nomads are the worst in rejection and hypocrisy, and more likely not to know the boundaries of what God has sent down upon His messenger. God is Knower, Wise.
Nomads is your translation. Mine is arab.
From wiki
Arabs (Arabic , arab) are a major panethnic group. They primarily inhabit Western Asia, North Africa, parts of the Horn of Africa, and other areas in the Arab world. Arabic groups which inhabit or are adjacent to the Arabian plate and Arabic speaking people include the Lebanese, Syrians, Emiratis, Qataris, Saudis, Bahrainis, Kuwaitis, Iraqis, Omanis, Jordanians, Palestinians, Yemenis, Sudanis, Algerians, Moroccans, Tunisians, Libyans, Somalis and Egyptians.
Let's go through the list and you will find almost all of them to be the worst examples of established Islam in the world. All these countries are even today actively abusing religion, distorting it for political goals (a small price).
This verse, even if it may try to tell the reader to abstain from making religious leaders as authorities besides God, still it also promotes hatred towards the Jews and the Christians as well
930 The Jews said, "Ezra is God's son," and the Nazarenes said, "The Messiah is God's son." Such is their utterances with their mouths; they imitate the sayings of those who rejected before them. God's curse be on them. How deviated are their minds!
What happened to the Jewish and Christian tradition is a historical fact. What other examples should God point to except those two?
In the verses 911, 984, 999, Edip Yuksel translated the word 'Salah' as support, instead of contact prayer, unlike The Monotheist translation. That should also give hints to us that the word Salah has been misinterpreted elsewhere also, most likely. It doesn't look right that God would be so obsessed with ritual prayers more than things like good behavior or so.
Peace,
Samira
Edip Yuksel is of zero authority to me. I consider him even a bad apple in the whole reform movement within Islam for his outright homophobic stance (for which he selectively preservers the hadith that suit his narrative) and lack of linguistic understanding.
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3yoni
Israel is not surrounded by 'evil MOOZLEM HORDES' that wants to destroy it. Most groups that opposes Israel are secular Arab nationalist groups(Many of them base their ideology on Communism) that tend to sometimes mix Arab nationalism with Islam which is sad. The PFLP(Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine) was started by a Palestinian Christian. Ba'athism was started by Palestinian Christian along with a Muslim and an atheist. Many Arab Christians fought against Israel too. Many Arabs who were fighting Israel during 1973 and 1948 were Arabs of many religions. Arab- Druze, Christian and Muslims attacked Israeli forces on sight. Many Arab nationalist groups don't care about Israel but they want give the Palestinians their land back and they don't like it when the Israelies occupy Palestine. Hey, Israel can go and occupy the US or a country in Europe and the Arab nationalist groups or the neighboors of Palestine will not care anymore. It's simple; You occupy Palestine and you'll get hundreds of enemies. The Palestinians were not Arabized for nothing- They are a part of our 'brethren'. If the Europeans harm them then the Europeans will be wiped off the map.
All of what you said above doesn't change the fact that Israel is surrounded by enemies who wanna kill all the Jews if they had the chance.
Israel is not 'surrounded' by anybody. Israelies don't belong in the Middle-east anyway; They're European/Soviet Jews that should have stayed in Europe. People should stop acting as if Israel is surrounded by anybody- The fact is that Israelies have no right to be in the Levant in the first place. And it's no wonder that many Middle-eastern nations want to get rid of Israel because it's occupying Palestinian land.
Israel is surrounded by following countries Lebanon, Syria, Egypt and Jordan. All four countries are known to hate Jews.
I strong support in removing Israel.
and this is why Israel needs to defend itself.
I absolutely see no reason for why Israel(A Jewish homeland) should exist
Some people don't see any reason for why China exist either. Doesn't matter. The reality is, that Israel exist.
I'll oppose any religious homelands(Whether it be 'Jewish' or 'Muslim' despite how many times they pretend to be 'democratic' or 'secular'.
Doesn't make sense. You are against democratic secular countries if they are considered religious homelands? Then you must be against the existence of Pakistan as well, as it was created as a homeland for Indian Muslims. )
It doesn't matter what something is based on because what happened in the past cannot be changed.. the important thing is the current reality. And the current reality is that Israel exist, so it only makes sense to take it from now.
Two examples of religious homeland is Israel and the Islamic State. You have Israel that is a 'Jewish' homeland in the same way the Islamic State is a 'muslim' homeland (It has nothing to do with Muslims)
.Wrong. The Jewish homeland was granted to the Jews by the UN after second world war. Israel is today a sovereign democratic state with secular values. The case of Israel is remarkably similar to that of Pakistan . Just like Israel, Pakistan was also build as a religious homeland for Indian Muslims, who feared persecution at the hand of the Hindu majority after second world war... and just like Israel, Pakistan founding fathers, including Muhammad Ali Jinnah, created the religious homeland on secular and democratic values (However, this was later abolished by the the sharia-crazed dictator Zia Ul HAq in the late 1970s) surrounded by neighbors who had grudges against the new national religious homeland, fought wars with its neighbors and had huge boarder related territory disputes with its neighbors (In Pakistans case its the Kashmir province, in Israels case its the Golan Height).
So, Pakistan and Israel are remarkable similar both on their national foundation and history..Islamic state has not been granted anything from the UN, has never been recognized as a state, and is certainly not based on democracy leave alone secularism..
Not really. It's the failure of the Arab governments to help Palestine.
Arab governments are too busy killing their own people to worry about Palestine.
We have enough oil to annihilate Israel and NATO combined
And this is why Israel has a right to defend itself
but instead Arab oil-money goes to European prostitutes, some South-Asian countries, more mosques in Europe and worst of all to Wahabbism
You just combined following in one sentence stereotyping, over-generalization, conspiracy theory and exaggeration
The Western nations don't want this- They want Shariah law in the Arab countries which is why they support Wahabbism(A radical primitive religious ideology)
OK, so its not only Jews you have a problem with. You also have a problem with Muslims who follow the wahabi movement. And your claim of Western nations wanting to have sharia law in Arab countries is laughable, not only because its unsupported by evidence, but because its a conspiracy theory.
Sadly today the Gulf-countries are trying to attack Iran by creating sectarian wars with their oil-money. It's sad that oil-money is given to a bunch of barbarians (The Royal family). The Royal family has contributed ZERO to the Arab world and is only destroying the Arab world by trying to attack Iran, allowing the Europeans to walk into the Arab world, funding terrorism in the Arab countries, sending resources to the South-Asian countries and not the other Arab countries and so on. The Arab countries could easily annihilate Israel.
What you are saying above is following Iran is a poor victim. The villains are the BARBARIC oily rich royal family of Saudi Arabia + the Europeans + Israel = Axis of Evil.
Solution according to you Nuke Israel.Its quite scary how much your way of thinking matches George W. Bush. )
It's not suprising if the oil-money is going to European prostitutes for Jabba- Erm I mean Abdullah.
more prostitute arguments... o jealousy ? ;D
It's not the ORGINAL homeland of the Jews but rather the orginal homeland for the ISRAELITES
You just said above that you disprove of religious homelands. You are contradicting yourself
I'd say that there are more Jews in the US than in Israel.
wrong. check the statistics.
Saying that all Jews belong in Israel is like saying that all Muslims belong in Saudi-Arabia.
The argument is that all Jews have the right to live protected in a national homeland, in the aftermath of centuries of persecution. That is like saying, that all Muslims in India has the right to live protected in a national homeland (PAKISTAN) in order to avoid persecution in the hand of the Hindu majority in India. However, Israel justify this claim further by claiming that Jews have historical rights upon Jerusalem and its surroundings... just like Muslims claims to have historical rights upon Mekka and Madina in Saudi Arabia.
Nowhere does the Qur'an mention the ISRAELIES or the JEWS..
Again you are contradicting yourself. Earlier you praised secularism and now you make religious arguments against Israel
And NOT ALL Israelites were Jews- Many Israelites left their religion to avoid being killed by either the Roman empire or the European Crusaders.
Not all Saudi Arabians are Muslims either. what difference does that make?
nowhere does the Qur'an mention the ISRAELIES or the JEWS.. So no Allah was not a Zionist because he does not support a Jewish homeland and neither did he support an Israeli homeland.. He rather supported an ISRAELITE homeland according to the Qur'an. Allah refers to the Israelites as 'the children of Israel' several times in the Qur'an. The children of Israel were the Israelites in the same way the children of America were its citizens i.e the Americans. ABSOLUTELY nowhere does God mention a Jewish homeland or an Israeli homeland - No he/she/whatever mentions an ISRAELITE homeland instead.
Your lack of logic is truly astonishing Because Allah did not mention the terms ''Jews'' or ''Israelis'' in the Quran, you conclude that Allah does not support the existence of the modern state of Israel in year 2014. But because Allah mentioned ''Bani Israel'' in the Quran, Allah supports an ''Israelitie'' religious homeland instead. ) ) o o ??? ???
(you earlier claimed to be against religious homelands.)
And there is no win in nuking Israel because it resites like a parasite in Palestine. It would only harm the Palestinians.
Israel is a state in the Middle East, not a parasite in Palestine as Palestine is not a ''state''.
Israels existence has not only harmed some Palestinians, but also Israelis themselves. However, that's by no means a reason to abolish a sovereign state, just as the fact that the existence of Nigeria has caused harm to some Nigerians isn't a reason to abolish Nigeria as a state.
All we as outsiders residing in the West can do is to encourage Israelis and Palestinians to negotiate a two state solution, build friendships between Palestinians and Israelis and encourage Palestinians to apply democratic and secular values in their territories in order for the West to take them more seriously. But ultimately the future of Israel and Palestine is going to be determined by its inhabitants Only the Israelis and Palestinians in the Middle East have the power to resolve their issues and create a better future for themselves and their children. However, the only way to achieve that is if both parties let go of the past, and focus on the current reality.
Peace
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It's funny how some people make statements such as Israel is surrounded by "jew hating" countries, or this Israel-Palestine conflict is a religious issue. I always like to bring up the FACT that prior to recent history (i.e. before world war 1) jews/Christians/muslims lived in harmony in that area, no major problems at all. I wonder what changed eh.
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Colonialism, or imperialism. No mistery there.
But the Imperial propaganda machine wants us to "learn" that there is a terrible religious problem with all that, and happily kicks and puts out of existence Palestinian Christians, who supposedly do not exist nor have existed.
Imperialism, yes, imperialism is the reason not any sin of any Palestinian. May God bless Palestine and Palestinian pople who struggle for justice and their legitimate rights. And may those who wish them ill be humilliated, as they want to humilliate a trodden upon people.
Salaam
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3yoni
All of what you said above doesn't change the fact that Israel is surrounded by enemies who wanna kill all the Jews if they had the chance.
Israel is surrounded by following countries Lebanon, Syria, Egypt and Jordan. All four countries are known to hate Jews.
and this is why Israel needs to defend itself.
Some people don't see any reason for why China exist either. Doesn't matter. The reality is, that Israel exist.
Doesn't make sense. You are against democratic secular countries if they are considered religious homelands? Then you must be against the existence of Pakistan as well, as it was created as a homeland for Indian Muslims.
It doesn't matter what something is based on because what happened in the past cannot be changed.. the important thing is the current reality. And the current reality is that Israel exist, so it only makes sense to take it from now..
Wrong. The Jewish homeland was granted to the Jews by the UN after second world war. Israel is today a sovereign democratic state with secular values. The case of Israel is remarkably similar to that of Pakistan . Just like Israel, Pakistan was also build as a religious homeland for Indian Muslims, who feared persecution at the hand of the Hindu majority after second world war... and just like Israel, Pakistan founding fathers, including Muhammad Ali Jinnah, created the religious homeland on secular and democratic values (However, this was later abolished by the the sharia-crazed dictator Zia Ul HAq in the late 1970s) surrounded by neighbors who had grudges against the new national religious homeland, fought wars with its neighbors and had huge boarder related territory disputes with its neighbors (In Pakistans case its the Kashmir province, in Israels case its the Golan Height).
So, Pakistan and Israel are remarkable similar both on their national foundation and history..Islamic state has not been granted anything from the UN, has never been recognized as a state, and is certainly not based on democracy leave alone secularism..
Arab governments are too busy killing their own people to worry about Palestine.
And this is why Israel has a right to defend itself
You just combined following in one sentence stereotyping, over-generalization, conspiracy theory and exaggeration
OK, so its not only Jews you have a problem with. You also have a problem with Muslims who follow the wahabi movement. And your claim of Western nations wanting to have sharia law in Arab countries is laughable, not only because its unsupported by evidence, but because its a conspiracy theory.
What you are saying above is following Iran is a poor victim. The villains are the BARBARIC oily rich royal family of Saudi Arabia + the Europeans + Israel = Axis of Evil.
Solution according to you Nuke Israel.Its quite scary how much your way of thinking matches George W. Bush.
more prostitute arguments... o jealousy ? ;D
You just said above that you disprove of religious homelands. You are contradicting yourself
wrong. check the statistics.The argument is that all Jews have the right to live protected in a national homeland, in the aftermath of centuries of persecution. That is like saying, that all Muslims in India has the right to live protected in a national homeland (PAKISTAN) in order to avoid persecution in the hand of the Hindu majority in India. However, Israel justify this claim further by claiming that Jews have historical rights upon Jerusalem and its surroundings... just like Muslims claims to have historical rights upon Mekka and Madina in Saudi Arabia.
Again you are contradicting yourself. Earlier you praised secularism and now you make religious arguments against Israel
Not all Saudi Arabians are Muslims either. what difference does that make?
Your lack of logic is truly astonishing Because Allah did not mention the terms ''Jews'' or ''Israelis'' in the Quran, you conclude that Allah does not support the existence of the modern state of Israel in year 2014. But because Allah mentioned ''Bani Israel'' in the Quran, Allah supports an ''Israelitie'' religious homeland instead. o o ??? ???
(you earlier claimed to be against religious homelands.)
Israel is a state in the Middle East, not a parasite in Palestine as Palestine is not a ''state''.
Israels existence has not only harmed some Palestinians, but also Israelis themselves. However, that's by no means a reason to abolish a sovereign state, just as the fact that the existence of Nigeria has caused harm to some Nigerians isn't a reason to abolish Nigeria as a state.
All we as outsiders residing in the West can do is to encourage Israelis and Palestinians in negotiating over a two state solution, build friendships between Palestinians and Israelis and encourage Palestinians to apply democratic and secular values in their territories in order for the West to take them more seriously. But ultimately the future of Israel and Palestine is going to be determined by its inhabitants Only the Israelis and Palestinians in the Middle East have the power to resolve their issues and create a better future for themselves and their children. However, the only way to achieve that is if both parties let go of the past, and focus on the current reality.
PeaceAll of what you said above doesn't change the fact that Israel is surrounded by enemies who wanna kill all the Jews if they had the chance.
If you attack an Arab country and kill its citizens then expect retaliations. Nobody wants to kill ALL the Jews. In the Arab world prior to Israels independance- there were plenty of Arab Jews and had Israel never declared independance the Arab Jews would be respected like the Arab Christians. Today the Arab Christians are serving proudly in the Iraq army killing European 'Muslim' scumbags that are trying to establish another Israel. Just go and read about how the Danish savages were annilihated by the Iraqi army- Let it be an example to every European irhabi. Sadly the Arab Jews on the otherhand are looked upon as traitors because of an 'Arab' Jewish Zionist moron i.e Eli Cohlen(Who wasn't even Arab - He was a European scumbag carrying Arab citizenship) that spied on the Arab countries for Israel. The Arab countries consider the Jews to be traitors because of idiotic Europeans that were never orginally Arabs to begin with. Israel was terrorizing the Arab Jews- This was a way for Israel to be able to bring the Arab Jews to Israel so they could contribute to the moronic Israeli society. In Iraq they did so by placing bombs in areas frequented by Iraqis who were Jewish, then starting whispering campaigns that scared people into emigrating. The plan worked brilliantly, but then again, Israeli intelligence/covert operatives, had experience with such things from massacres like Deir Yassin. Ex-Zionist, ex-spy for Israel and a Jewish Iraqi like Naeim Giladi who smuggled Iraqi Jews from Iraq to Israel admitted that it was Jews killing Jews. "I write this article for the same reason I wrote my book to tell the American people, and especially American Jews, that Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave, Jews killed Jews; and that, to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands, Jews on numerous occasions rejected genuine peace initiatives from their Arab neighbors. I write about what the first prime minister of Israel called "cruel Zionism." I write about it because I was part of it." His words. He wrote to 'The Link' about his book saying "About 125,000 Jews left Iraq for Israel in the late 1940s and into 1952, most because they had been lied to and put into a panic by what I came to learn were Zionist bombs. But my mother and father were among the 6,000 who did not go to Israel.."
Only a small number of Arab Jews supported Zionism and most immigrants were not refugees but immigrated to Israel in the 1950 (long after the war). The same for Russian or Polish Jews (are not termed refugees but migrants, immigrants). Zionists of European origin, like David Ben-Gurion, Golda Meir, and Abba Eban often made derogatory statements regarding Arab Jews who they considered to be inferior to themselves. The Jewish communities had flourished in Arab lands for thousands of years, and they contributed greatly to Arab culture as did all other peoples who settled in the Arab World. Off the coast of Tunisia, on a small island of Djerba, a Jewish colony lived that traced its presence there to at least 1000 BC. According to Rabbi Moshe Schonfeld, "Some Djerban rabbis who were not to be fooled nor intimidated by the Zionists were harassed, threatened and even beaten." (Schonfeld, Genocide in the Holy Land, 50 Rabbi Schonfeld also wrote about the same tactics used to get the Jews of Iraq to flee to Israel. Zionists tried to convince these Arab Jews that it was the Arabs who were exploding bombs in their neighborhoods, but it was the Zionists who dreamed of populating Israel with Jews form all over the world. Wilbur Crane Eveland, a former CIA operative, wrote about the Zionist crimes against Arab Jews in Iraq (Feuerlicht, The Fate of the Jews, 231). Jewish author, Alfred Lilienthal, wrote about the oppressive treatment by Ashkenazi (European) Jews in Israel of the Sephardic Jews (Semitic Arab origin) in his book The Zionist Connection. Jews in the Arab World were always treated with respect and civility throughout history. Any mistreatment they received was in the hands of the Zionists in Israel. In either case, Arab countries continues to have a policy of welcoming emigrants back to those countries unlike Israel.
The truth is that the European Jews were trouble makers which is why the Arab nations decided to get rid of them. The Arab nations wanted to get rid of all Europeans especially those that colonized the Arab countries.
There is absolutely nothing more anti-semitic than Israhell- Israel creates anti-semitism by giving Jews a bad name. Not ALL Jews want anything to do with Israel- Infact some holocaust survivors have condemned Israel and called it a disgrace to Judaism. Islamic State is giving Islam a bad name just like Israel is giving Judaism a bad name. Israel with its history of a carpet labels itself as a 'Jewish' homeland making people believe that it's somehow a 'Jewish' homeland. People must understand that it's these Europeans that are savages and Europe needs to be targetted equally as much as Israhell. Westerners should keep making Israel look 'victimized' and all- But everybody know that Israel is the aggressor and not the way around no matter how many times Western propagandists try to put it. And these Westerners who speak about anti-semetism why do they not say anything about the countless of European political parties that all have their origin based on Nazism and fascism? I like how Israel can cooperate with the worst people ever(i.e the right-wing European political parties whose members are Nazis to the core) and then accuse people of being anti-semites for criticizing Israel. There is nothing more anti-semitic than Israhell. Today many pro-Israeli fasictists(Like Robert Spencer - A big-nosed European warmongerer) enjoy cooperating with European political parties(E.g The Swedish democrats that have its origin based on Nazism) while accusing Muslims of being 'anti-semites' for simply criticising Israel. What a joke.. The truth is that the term 'Anti-Semite' is only being used to Zionists advantage. Israel does not care about the Jews- And prefers to use the word 'anti-semetism' to its advantage- Meanwhile Israel cooperates with the biggest anti-semites ever.
http//mondoweiss.net/2014/08/holocaust-survivors-palestinians - 40 Holocaust survivors condemn ?massacre? of Palestinians, call for BDS against Israel
From the article
?It?s a shame Hitler didn?t finish the job,? one Israeli named Asher Solomon said, while another, Katy Morali, added that ?Holocaust survivors who think like this are invited to go die in the gas chambers.?
The Jews are not the enemy but the Israelies and the Europeans. And both the Israelies named Asher Solomon and Katy Morali are true anti-semitic morons.
Israel is surrounded by following countries Lebanon, Syria, Egypt and Jordan. All four countries are known to hate Jews.
Egypt and Jordan has a lot of trade with Israel over gas and resources and there are Israeli ambassadors in these countries for diplomatic relations. Only Syria and Lebanon opposes Israel and has not signed any treaty therefor these countries are still at war with Israel and therefor Israel is not really surrounded. The only ones who have a history of hatred towards the Jews are your kind; i.e the Europeans. The Europeans have killed MILLIONS of EUROPEAN Jews because they were Jews. I can assure you that the history of Lebanon, Syria and Jordan is a lot more PRO-JEWISH than say pathetic European countries such as Denmark for example.
The majority Arabs support Palestine but our leaders are corrupt and they'll make a lot of trades with Israel secretly while pretending to care about the Palestinians. Like usually.. European/South-Asian Muslims are put over our Arab brethren, trade is going on with Israel, Hillary clinton is given a medal, Wahabbis/Europeans are destroying another Arab country. While some countries in South-America decided to withdraw their ambassador from Israel due to the Palestinian civilians who were bombed by the Israeli terrorist airforce, the Arab countries are making deals with Israel and sending more aid to South-Asian countries that don't really deserve it.
Arab governments are too busy killing their own people to worry about Palestine.
Yah not only that but they are buying more garbage weapons from the Europeans. The Europeans enjoy selling weapons to countries with dictators. As if anybody wants some garbage weapons from the Europeans. Russia could EASILY turn Europe(Denmark and Britain in particular) into a waiste land- That's why Europe hides behind the US.
But it's not only the fact that the Arab countries somehow buy primitive European weapons- But even the fact that the Arab countries send aid to lots of South-Asian countries(Pakistan in particular). Sadly the European nations are laughing at the Arab regimes(the regimes of Bahrain) killing its own people. The Europeans along with these regimes the biggest enemies next to the Islamic State/European 'Muslims'(AKA Islamists) IMO. But what do the Europeans have to laugh about really? Europeans killed each other a lot more. 90+ million Europeans died during WW1-WW2 including the 6 million European Jews who were gassed/killed with Zyklon B.
and this is why Israel needs to defend itself.
No such thing as 'defending itself'. It was orginally called Palestine until the Israelies(Who were orginally European Jewish Immigrants) Immigrated to Palestine and began to destroy the Palestinian independance against the British empire(By siding with the British regime against the Palestinians who revolted). The Israelies are the aggressors. Today the Israelies are demolishing Palestinian homes in the West bank so they can be replaced with 'Jewish' settlements - In any case it's the Arab world defending itself against Israel. If the Arab world does not take action then in the future there will be no Palestinian State as Israel is eating Palestinian land. Absolutely unacceptable.
And Europeans such as you seem to be a big fan of self-defense/retaliations. Using your logic, the Arab world has the right to annilihate the entire West because of the Western jihadists that keeps flocking from the West. Afterall- It's retaliation and a way to defend ourselves. Denmark for example takes ZERO responsibility in arresting the Islamic State jihadists therefor making Denmark equally as responsible as the Islamic State. If the Arab world had acted like Israel then the Arab countries would have set Europe on fire by now.
Some people don't see any reason for why China exist either. Doesn't matter. The reality is, that Israel exist.
No people DO see a reason for why China exists. Israelies on the otherhand has no culture, language or traditions of its own. They stole it all from Canaan to Palestine. Unlike Israhell, China has its own language, culture and traditions. And the founding fathers of China weren't a bunch of Immigrants from Europe.
Doesn't make sense. You are against democratic secular countries if they are considered religious homelands? Then you must be against the existence of Pakistan as well, as it was created as a homeland for Indian Muslims.
It doesn't matter what something is based on because what happened in the past cannot be changed.. the important thing is the current reality. And the current reality is that Israel exist, so it only makes sense to take it from now.
Pakistan DOES not DECLARE itself as a 'Muslim' country and neither does Pakistan pay thousands of dollars to all Muslims worldwide so they can Immigrate to Pakistan and have their citizenship for being 'muslim'. Tbh I don't care about how Pakistan was formed; the fact is that Pakistan is a country for all Pakistanis regardless of religion. Sure Pakistan probaly has theocracy but the fact is that Pakistan does not pay Muslims worldwide to Immigrate to Pakistan and live there and be granted Pakistani citizenship and Pakistan DOES not demolish Indian Hindu homes while it replaces them with Pakistani Muslim settlements. Foreign Muslims are not given 'special privileges' in Pakistan. And the Pakistanis ARE native to Pakistan- They were orginally Indian Muslims that were fighting against the Indian Hindus so the British empire divided them both. The Jews in Palestine on the otherhand were orginally European Immigrants that showed up in Palestine during WW2 as Hitler chased them off Europe.
No matter how many times you try to say that Israel exists it's only nature and the failure of the Arab governments. Israel is like a cow on steroids - And what I mean by that is that Israel is being pumped into with a lot of money from either Europe or the US. The US provides Israel $3 billions of dollars a year meanwhile Germany has given 25 billion euro to Israel as 'reparation' for the stuff that happened during WW2. Also Israel gets a lot of private donations especially from rich European Jews like the Rothschild. The truth is that if it was not for all the funds being pumped into Israel then Israel would fall a long time ago. Money is keeping Israel alive.
And I said nations pretending to be 'democratic' and 'secular'(e.g Israel)
So, Pakistan and Israel are remarkable similar both on their national foundation and history..
I can assure you - You're only insulting Pakistan by saying this. No it's not both 'similiar' at all. Secondly why do you compare Israel to Pakistan? Are you from Pakistan?
Islamic state has not been granted anything from the UN, has never been recognized as a state, and is certainly not based on democracy leave alone secularism..
If the Islamic State would become democracy tomorrow I bet that you would probaly support its existance because it's 'democratic' ignoring all the crimes it has committed towards the Iraqis, Syrians and Kurds.
http//s29.postimg.org/5njhh5hhz/Burn_ISISterrorists.png
Wrong. The Jewish homeland was granted to the Jews by the UN after second world war. Israel is today a sovereign democratic state with secular values. The case of Israel is remarkably similar to that of Pakistan . Just like Israel, Pakistan was also build as a religious homeland for Indian Muslims, who feared persecution at the hand of the Hindu majority after second world war... and just like Israel, Pakistan founding fathers, including Muhammad Ali Jinnah, created the religious homeland on secular and democratic values (However, this was later abolished by the the sharia-crazed dictator Zia Ul HAq in the late 1970s) surrounded by neighbors who had grudges against the new national religious homeland, fought wars with its neighbors and had huge boarder related territory disputes with its neighbors (In Pakistans case its the Kashmir province, in Israels case its the Golan Height).
So, Pakistan and Israel are remarkable similar both on their national foundation and history..Islamic state has not been granted anything from the UN, has never been recognized as a state, and is certainly not based on democracy leave alone secularism..
Comparing Pakistan to Israel is really a terrible comparison no offense. So you're saying that Pakistan should be a homeland for Muslims? So I as a Muslim can come to Pakistan and be granted citizenship for being a Muslim? No thanks dear. I live in the best country in the world and I do not ever want any Arab country to become the way you describe and I believe that you are only giving Pakistan a more terrible future by imposing religious nationalism. IMO Pakistan should be a country for all Pakistanis and not for all Muslims. I'm all for democracy but religious homelands must not be established. It's better to respect your citizens regardless of religion than the people of the same religion. I believe in equality to all Arabs regardless of religion- Unlike you I do not believe in a religious nationalism infact I oppose it. The Arab countries will become countries for their own citizens regardless of religion, gender and equality and if the Western/South-Asian/Non-Arab Muslims do not like it then they are free to leave anytime.
The Arab nations will become like Sweden; democratic nations that value the lives of their citizens and nations that treats everybody equal regardless of gender or religion. Not countries that value Muslims over non-Muslim Arabs. And if the non-Arab Muslims don't like it then they are free to leave anytime. Nobody wants their presence anyway in the Arab world- And for us it's only better if we can get rid of these people. This will reduce the population a bit and more jobs will given to the Arabs.
And the Golan Heights belongs to Syria and not to a bunch of European scumbags. When the Arab world unite- The Golan heights will be the first place to be retaken by the Arab countries whether the Europeans like it or not. And if the Europeans keep supporting terrorism- They'll end up loosing some Western-European nations. The Arab countries have a right to retaliate against the European countries as a response to their support of terrorism and support for dictators that ruined the Arab world. The liberation of Palestine starts with the liberation of Saudi-Arabia and Qatar. Only Western 'Muslims' support barbaric Royal families while they pretend to oppose the regime of Iran. There's plenty of Western 'Muslims' that live in Dubai - It's better to deport them IMO.
And the Arab countries have always respected the Jews compared to Europe that killed millions of Jews.
Arab governments are too busy killing their own people to worry about Palestine.
They are too busy giving Europeans some more billions of dollars for some garbage weapons that Europeans are terrible at. Seriously, I really hate the fact that the Arab governments invests billions of dollars on mosques in Europe letalone having European presence in the Gulf-countries. The Arab governments/regimes are just as bad as the Europeans.
And this is why Israel has a right to defend itself
Except that Israel never defends itself. It only provokes its enemies and after its enemies responds, Israel then acts as if it's somehow 'defending itself'. Israel is demolishing homes in the West bank therefor Israel is the aggressor.
You just combined following in one sentence stereotyping, over-generalization, conspiracy theory and exaggeration
Actually the Saudi regime spends $3 billions of dollars a year on Wahabbism. Europeans are honestly like a virus- They infect the Arab world making sure that the Arab world will never become democracy but rather ruled under Wahabbism - Hence they make sure that the Arab world will be brought back to square one again. This is a way for Europe to protect Israel. You'll keep calling it a 'conspiracy theory', but that's all you Westerners can do. It's to call things 'conspiracy theories' when you do not agree and when you agree it's all facts.
How am I stereotyping anybody? Over-generalization? How? Conspiracy theory regarding the fact that the Saudis spend $3 billions of dollars a year on Wahabbism/Religious stupidity?
"Tens of billions of dollars of this money were spent on books, media, schools, scholarships for students (from primary to post-graduate), fellowships and subsidies to reward journalists, academics and Islamic scholars, the building of hundreds of Islamic centers and universities, and over one thousand schools and one thousand mosques. During this time, Wahhabism attained what Gilles Kepel called a "preeminent position of strength in the global expression of Islam."
"Tens of billions of dollars have been spent by the Saudi government and charities on mosques, schools, education materials, scholarships, throughout the world to promote Islam and the Wahhabi interpretation of it. Tens of thousands of volunteers and several billion dollars also went in support of the jihad against the atheist communist regime governing Muslim Afghanistan."
"Estimates of Saudi spending on religious causes abroad include "upward of $100 billion", between $2 and 3 billion per year since 1975. (compared to the annual Soviet propaganda budget of $1 billion/year), and "at least $87 billion" from 1987-2007"
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism
If only those funds could have gone to the liberation of Palestine but no instead it went to the worst things ever. It's not only the fact that the oil-money goes to mosques and religious stuff but even to terrible European weapons which only benefits the European economy apart from the mosques that are being funded in Europe. And yet these European right-wingers would like you to think that the mosques being built in Europe is only harming Europe- If anything the mosques are helping the European economy. The European economy is such a joke anyway. And the mosques being funded in Europe is a terrible id?a IMO. Many European 'Muslims' are extremists/Islamists that will use these mosques to give Islam a bad name. The Saudi regime itself is giving Islam a bad name. Those funds could have gone to education, science and health in the Arab world or to the children of Africa but they went to the terrorist Europeans instead. Europe is a terrorist region and the Saudi Royal family is a terrorist regime that oppresses its people and does not even allow Saudi women to drive although it's about to change as more Saudi women are fighting for their rights. Europe is good at hiding all the crimes committed by the Saudi and the Bahraini regime towards its people while acting as if Iran is the biggest problem here ignoring the fact that it's Qatar and Saudi-Arabia that is spending billions of dollars on religious causes/extremism. But why would Europe ever complain? The Royal Family is only doing what Europe wants it to which is to fund terrorism and buy more garbage European weapons. When Gamal Abdel Nasser was at war with Israel- The Royal family was trying to assassinate Gamal Abdel Nasser by funding the Muslim brotherhood because it opposed Arab nationalism and wanted Islamic nationalism to prevail which it never did. 'Islamic' nationalism is a failure.
OK, so its not only Jews you have a problem with. You also have a problem with Muslims who follow the wahabi movement. And your claim of Western nations wanting to have sharia law in Arab countries is laughable, not only because its unsupported by evidence, but because its a conspiracy theory.
There is no such thing as 'Muslims following the Wahabi movement'. You saying that I have a problem with Muslims following the Wahabi movement is like me asking why you have a problem with Germans following Nazism. Of course I have a problem- But Wahabbis are not Muslims anyway. Wahabbism = Nazism. You don't seem to have a problem with Wahabbism because you're a European that has to defend NATO's interests. Wahabbism is like Nazism. It's hypocritical how Europeans cry about what Nazism did to them yet they support ideologies like Wahabbism/Royal dictatorship or countries such as Israel.
And it's supported by evidence, hence the West's support of Islamist groups like Al-Nusra, Islamic Front and the Islamic State(Who are all backfiring at each other for power right now). Your West somehow pretends to support 'moderate' groups but knows the consequences of supporting these groups. Not only that but Turkey(A NATO country and soon to become a part of the EU) is being exposed not only by Arab Muslims but even by Kurds especially the Kurds that fought in Kobane and destroyed the Islamist scumbags. Kurdish fighters who destroyed the Islamist scumbags found that the Islamist passports had Turkish stamps. Today the Kurds are exposing NATO for what it is; a European terrorist organisation.
And I do NOT have a problem with Jews. I'm NOT against Iranian Jews, Syrian Jews, Arab Jews but what I'm against are the European Jewish Zionist scumbags that think they have some kind of 'ancestry' in Palestine. I'm also against the European 'Muslim'/Islamist scumbags.
What you are saying above is following Iran is a poor victim. The villains are the BARBARIC oily rich royal family of Saudi Arabia + the Europeans + Israel = Axis of Evil.
Solution according to you Nuke Israel.Its quite scary how much your way of thinking matches George W. Bush.
Iran is indeed a poor victim being attacked by sectarian wars. The European warmongerers/apologists and the barbaric Royal family seems to have a fetish in destroying Iran- But keep dreaming that will never happen. I'm all for democratic reforms in Iran I just hope that the Iranians know that the Europeans and the Wahabbis wants to hjiack their uprising because they want Iran to fall back to square one again.
I never said that the solution is to nuke Israel. Please give me a good reason for why Israel should be nuked.. It would only harm the Palestinians and destroy Palestines heritage sites. My solution is to unite the Arab countries under democracy(Like Sweden), remove the Europeans even if they are Muslims from the Arab countries, Stop funding more mosques in Europe and cancel all the billions of dollars worth of contracts with Europe, bring back the Arab scienitists, remove Islamic teachings from the constitution- (Like Michel Aflaq, a Christian Arab nationalist once said - Fundamentalism must not be allowed to take over a state) and then annilihate Israel. There are better ways in removing Israel- I hope you realize that. And I believe that Palestinians much be given more rights in the Arab world but not only the Palestinians- Even any other Arab. The fact is that there is a lot of corruption in the Arab world. Removing the Europeans/Islamists and cancelling all the contracts being made with the West will reduce the amount of corruption and will strengthen the economy of the Arab world. The economy of the Arab world must NOT be spent on South-Asia or Europe but rather on health, science and education in the Arab world. But not only to the Arab world; even the African countries and the South-American countries. We have to show respect to our African Arab friends as well. The Arab countries must also let their minorities pracise their religion and speak their own languages while giving them political autonomy - Their languages are unique to the Arab world. They should not be forced to arabization. And the European 'muslim' scumbags must not be given any type of special privileges. If they do not like the Arab countries then they are free to leave anytime. Also some European nations need to be put on a terrorist list and their ambassadors must not be allowed to enter the Arab world.
BTW I thought you were a big fan of George W Bush because you're a Western apologist. Tbh your NATO is full of the European version of George W Bush. I oppose George W Bush to the core and I love that video were an Iraqi journalist throws his shoe at George Bush. Too bad he misses. May he one day be throwing the shoes at the Europeans too. NATO = Jaysh Al-Sahata o Al-European Al-Irhabieen and George W Bush = Amriki Irhabi.
Secondly, Europe and Saudi-Arabia is indeed a part of the Axis of Evil. You'd think that Europe changed after WW2 but no it remains the same. Do not worry, Israel is not the only one on the terrorist list- I can assure you that some European countries(Denmark in particular) is on the terrorist list too. Denmark is equally as much enemy to the Arab world as Israel.
more prostitute arguments... o jealousy ? ;D
Jealousy? Of what? European prostitutes? No lol. The only thing Europe is known for is brothel. That's pretty much it. The only thing the Saudis come for Europe is for sex-tourism and nothing else. As a European you should be proud given the fact that your region is only known for prostitution. Denmark is the perfect country for prostitution. Absolutely nothing to be jealous about. It makes me proud that Europe is known for absolutely nothing but prostiution. The Europeans want to copy America but their region is honestly a failure. There is absolutely nothing to be jealous about regarding Europe. Democracy? Already been there. Secularism? Already been there. Civilizations? Already been there. Syria encompasses the sites of several ancient kingdoms and empires, including the Eblan civilization of the 3rd millennium BC. Iraq has the oldest civilization and Lebanon has also an old civilization(Phoenicia) as well. What is there to be jealous about regarding Europe?
You just said above that you disprove of religious homelands. You are contradicting yourself
Habibti you always say that people contradict themselves yet you absolutely give no example of people contradicting themselves.
I DO disapprove of RELIGIOUS homelands. ISRAEL is NOT the homeland of the Jews but rather the homeland for the ISRAELITES. NOT ALL ISRAELITES WERE JEWS - Especially during the time the Romans conquered Palestine/Israel because they forced their religion on the Jews. This was a way for them to prevent a rebellion because it would make people with the same religion intergrate a lot easier in the country.
The Israelites were a Semitic people of the Ancient Near East, who inhabited part of Canaan during the tribal and monarchic periods. Jews are people who are an adherent to Judaism. Anybody can convert to Judaism. By supporting a Jewish homeland, you're supporting a religious homeland. Unlike the Jews, the Israelites do have their own culture, language(the same language whom many people think is Jewish when it's infact Israelite) and history.
wrong. check the statistics.
OK
The Israeli population is about 8,2M
Now the question is how many are Jews of the Israeli population?
19,5% are non-Jews (Only including Christians, Muslims and Druze therefor the numbers are higher)
Therefor 80,5% are Jews (6,6 million - However the numbers are lower than this given the fact that the Israeli population does not only consist of Christians, Muslims and Druze - And then the question is how many of the 6,6 million Israelies still consider themselves Jews).
In the US the American Jewish population ranges from 5,4million up to 8,3million.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Jews
The argument is that all Jews have the right to live protected in a national homeland, in the aftermath of centuries of persecution. That is like saying, that all Muslims in India has the right to live protected in a national homeland (PAKISTAN) in order to avoid persecution in the hand of the Hindu majority in India. However, Israel justify this claim further by claiming that Jews have historical rights upon Jerusalem and its surroundings... just like Muslims claims to have historical rights upon Mekka and Madina in Saudi Arabia.
If the European Jews want a national homeland then allow Europe to give them one in EUROPE. It was infact the stupid terrorist Europeans that killed about 6 million of their own brethren- therefor the Europeans are guilty. And what the Europeans did to the Jews is MUCH worse than what the 'radical moozlems' are doing to the Jews. Therefor by your logic- The Jews have the right to establish a homeland in Europe because they were 'oppressed'.
Danish Nazism
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Movement_of_Denmark
Never forget that Denmark is a perfect source of right-wingers/Nazis that blame Immigration for their countrys stupidity and failure.
Hitler gased European Jews with Zyklon B. He chased them off entire Europe- Killed every European Jew he could see. However anti-semetism did not start in Europe with Hitler- It was much earlier than that especially when Europe was a Christian stone-age region were the primitive European Christians were attacking the European Jews because they were rich.
And secondly you're analogy of Israel and Pakistan is a failure IMO. Here is why
You're right that Indian Muslims belong in Pakistan and Pakistanis belong in India. It's all the same. The founding fathers of Israel on the otherhand were EUROPEAN Immigrants that are in NO way connected to Palestine.
Indian and Pakistanis are the same. Palestinians and Israelies are NOT the same.
And NOT ALL MUSLIMS belong in Saudi-Arabia. Arabs only represent about 13% of the Muslim population- The rest are South-Asians/Europeans/etc. And even of these Arabs not all come from Saudi-Arabia. Saudi-Arabia is a country for ALL SAUDIS regardless of religion and gender. Muslims do not have historical claims to Mekka and Medina- The historical sites still belong to Saudi-Arabia and NOT Muslims. Mekka and Medina might be holy places to Islam but they are in Saudi-Arabia therefor they belong to Saudi-Arabia and not to anybody else. And there is a difference between having genetical ties and historical ties. Historical ties is useless and does not mean anything. There are Japanese, African, European Jews- They DON'T belong in Palestine instead they belong in their own countries. A Swedish Christian does NOT belong in Bettlehem but rather in Sweden.
Again you are contradicting yourself. Earlier you praised secularism and now you make religious arguments against Israel
I'm not against Israel because the Qur'an said so. I'm against Israel because I believe that NO nation has the right to build a religious homeland on Arab land no matter how many times it tries to sugarcoat its history with 'democracy' and 'secularism'. And the founding fathers of Israel were EUROPEAN Jewish Immigrants and not even Palestinian Jews(Although they were called Palestinian Jews because they were illegaly given citizenship in Palestine by the British regime).
I'm simply debunking the id?a that the Qur'an somehow supports a Jewish homeland letalone an Israeli homeland. The Qur'an mentions ZERO about it. I've not even read the entire Qur'an and yet I know better than most 'Muslims'. Many people told me that the Qur'an somehows supports the existance of Israel and they are correct but the Qur'an supports the existance of Israel for the ISRAELITES but not the Jews. Sadly some sheikhs go around to spread this propaganda that somehow the Qur'an says that 'Israel is the homeland for the Jews'. What a joke- They've obviously never even read the Qur'an. Regardless- It does not matter what the Qur'an says but what morals and ethics say. No country has the right to establish a religious homeland.
Not all Saudi Arabians are Muslims either. what difference does that make?
It makes no difference. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. I was pointing out the fact that not all ISRAELITES were Jews because many of them chose to leave their religion due to oppression and persecution- Others chose to convert to another religion therefor not all Israelites were Jews.
Your lack of logic is truly astonishing Because Allah did not mention the terms ''Jews'' or ''Israelis'' in the Quran, you conclude that Allah does not support the existence of the modern state of Israel in year 2014. But because Allah mentioned ''Bani Israel'' in the Quran, Allah supports an ''Israelitie'' religious homeland instead. o o ??? ???
(you earlier claimed to be against religious homelands.)
No what I'm saying is that the Qur'an does NOT support a homeland for the Israelies or the Jews but rather for the Israelites. I know life sucks but that's what Allah says now accept it. I don't care about religions but I will always debunk those who claim that Allah was somehow a Zionist.
I'm AGAINST religious homelands. And just because I'm quoting from the Qur'an does not make me a religious nutjob. Regardless of what the Qur'an says- Palestine has a lot more right to exist than Israhell.
The reason why I quoted the Qur'an was to debunk those 'Muslims' especially the sheikhs who think that Allah gave the land to the Jews.Israel is a state in the Middle East, not a parasite in Palestine as Palestine is not a ''state''.
It is a parasite in Palestine. When cowardly Israel gets boycotted in the West for Palestine it begins to harm the Palestinians and their economy - The Israelies controll Palestinian waters, Palestinian government and everything of Palestine. It's hard removing Israel from Palestine given the fact that it resides to Palestine like a parasite. The only reason why the other Arab countries managed to become independant and Palestine didin't is because the other Arab states had no European Jews that were siding with the British/French regimes to tackle the uprisings. In Palestine on the otherhand it was different- The Palestinians who revolted were faced by European Jewish cannonfodder and the British regime(They wanted no Palestinian State) and given the fact that the Palestinians revolters were not armed so good(They were only farmers who were sick of the British regime) the entire uprising was brutally taken down by the British regime along with the European Jews. Meanwhile in the other Arab countries, the Arab nationalists chased off the Europeans for independance. In Syria
http//s30.postimg.org/4bs7d5lzl/1957_people_s_army.jpg
http//s29.postimg.org/ljv0jviuv/1967_evac_anniv_soldie_woman_amp_man_holding_fla.jpg
How to become a State
Be approved by European countries and the US. (Terrorist nations).
'Palestinian' has existed longer than 'Israeli'. That's a fact- And another is that Palestine WILL be a state whether you and the Israelies like it or not. Sweden is going to approve of Palestinian existance- But it's a shame that our politics are soon to be ruled by a bunch of European right-winger scumbags(The same scumbags that were collabrating with Hitler).
Even the stupid Rothchild European Immigrants refered it to as Palestine in his letter regarding the Balfour declaration(A Zionist-British plan)..
http//s28.postimg.org/jwr8j31ul/Balfour_portrait_and_declaration.jpg
BTW Some of my cousins are ethnically Swedish and Palestinians- They'll be happy to know that Sweden stands behind Palestine and not Israhell. But just like Israel, European countries such as Denmark has absolutely no right to exist either. Danish people are Germans and have no culture, language or history of their own. While the Arab countries had plenty of civilizations, Denmark and many other Western-European nations didin't even exist and were barbaric primitive nations were their inhabitants were killing each other big time..
Israels existence has not only harmed some Palestinians, but also some Israelis themselves. However, that's by no means a reason to abolish a sovereign state, just as the fact that the existence of Nigeria has caused harm to some Nigerians isn't a reason to abolish Nigeria as a state.
It's probaly the worst sovereign state I have ever seen. Jews/Israelies have no culture, language or traditions of their own- What they're speaking today is an Israelite(A small middle-eastern tribe that existed thousands of years ago until it was asorbed finally by the Arabs) language. One could argue that Israel is not really a country but rather a European colony that is attaching itself like a parasite to Palestine removing the Palestinian history, language and culture(Canaan and the Israelite version of Israel will always be a part of Palestinian history and that is something the Europeans will never be able to steal). Yes whether you like it or not- Israel will be abolished just like Ottoman was abolished and just like the Islamic State will be destroyed. Israel = The Jewish version of 'Caliphate'.
Israels existance does not harm the Israelies but the Palestinians. That IS a reason to abolish the so called 'sovereign state'. And Israel is demolishing Palestinian homes in the West bank everyday.
All we as outsiders residing in the West can do is to encourage Israelis and Palestinians in negotiating over a two state solution, build friendships between Palestinians and Israelis and encourage Palestinians to apply democratic and secular values in their territories in order for the West to take them more seriously. But ultimately the future of Israel and Palestine is going to be determined by its inhabitants Only the Israelis and Palestinians in the Middle East have the power to resolve their issues and create a better future for themselves and their children. However, the only way to achieve that is if both parties let go of the past, and focus on the current reality.
It's obvious that Israel does not want Palestine to become independant and Israel is the one provoking the Palestinians and then later on acting victimized by 'MOOZLEM TERRORISTS'. And why should Palestine negioate over a 'two-state solution' anyway? No one has the right to force a Jewish European Immigration into Palestine and then act now as if the EUROPEAN Jews own 50% of Palestine. The land belongs to the Palestinians. Imagine if some retarded colonizers who colonized Sweden decided to force a Christian Danish Immigration to Sweden. Now after a descent population of the Christian Danish in Sweden.. The UN or whatever tries to impose a resolution allowing Danish to controll their territory and Swedes controll theirs to prevent war/nationalism.. Now Sweden refuses due to the fact that they owned all of the land from the very beginning. That's exactly what happened in Palestine, hence the rise of Palestinian nationalism. People need to call these Israelies 'European Jews'.. Because that's what they are. Seriously.. They're European Jews who have a fetish for the Israelites. It was good that there was no UN during the time Swedes retook Sk?ne and kicked out the Danish.. Because maybe today the Danish would end up controlling Sweden(Were they would turn it into a Christian Danish homeland giving all the Christians the right to 'return' and have their Danish citizenship for being Christians lol) and Sweden would end up like the Gaza strip. Haha just kidding I'm laughing because it's impossible.. Regardless if there was a UN today, Sweden would still destroy Denmark or anyone that tries to threaten it. Sweden produces ten times stronger weapons than most European countries including Denmark and could have become like the US.. But who wants to destroy their economy by focusing on military? Sweden only wants peace unlike Denmark that tried to attack Sweden and failed in almost all wars. Sweden > Denmark.
And the Westerners are terrorists and are only on Israels side. I love how Europe pretends to be an 'observer' and 'peace-maker' in this conflict yet the Europeans are equally as responsible for the state of Israel(Britain created Israel by forcing a European Jewish Mass Immigration to Palestine which contributed to the creation of Israel). And I see absolutely no reason for why Europeans should be welcomed in the Arab world. The Arab world already annilihated the European once as a response to the killings of Arab Muslims in Jerusalem. Just go and see how Saladin decapitated Raynad of Chattalon(A oompa loompa European terrorist that slaughtered innocent Arab Muslims). IMO it was a mistake of Saladin of not entering Europe- He should have paid the Western European nations a visit. And who are these Westerners to act 'civilized' just take a look at the terrorist groups they are supporting in Syria. After the war I hope the European ambassadors and the Wahabbis are thrown into jail. I also hope that the Arab world one day stops oppressing the Kurds- If anything it's the European 'Muslims'(especially those scumbags that are South-Asians) that should be oppressed for their support of terrorist groups. What have the Kurds ever done? Absolutely nothing. Now take a look at these European 'muslim' such as Anjem Choudry for example.. Or what about those Danish morons that name themselves Al-Denmarki? Or what about those European 'muslim' scumbags that have been sugarcoating Islamic State militants/terrorists with the name 'Freedom fighter'/'Rebel'? They're terrorists big time.
Look what happened to your European bruddas as they tried to establish a 'Muslim' homeland in Iraq
http//www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2013/05/danish_jihadist_kill.php - Danish jihadist killed
https//twitter.com/Charles_Lister/status/440022713147465728 - Al-Denmarki Al-Hmar was sent back to hell by the brave Iraqi army.
West-European 'Muslims' are such loosers really. They are either Western apologists or Islamists. Sadly these people can walk into the Arab world and because they are 'muslims' they can do whatever they want. Many of these thugs were destroyed by Kurdish fighters and were found with Turkish stamps on their passports. Most people who claim to represent the moderate Islam always try to defend the West and act like Western apologists which goes against everything they represent. They then defend Israel, acting as if 'Jew' is somehow an ethnic term and that all Jews belong in Palestine. They then act as if they oppose the Islamic State but they promote Israel which is almost no different than the Islamic State- The only difference is that Israel has managed to sugarcoat its history and state by acting 'democratic' and 'secular'. The Muslim Western apologists say absolutely NOTHING about the Islamic State- No instead they are good at pointers fingers at Hamas despite the Islamic State being a bigger threat.
The West is equally as barbaric as Israel. American/European Warcrimes
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_liberation_of_France
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_mutilation_of_Japanese_war_dead
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_killings
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre
European/Western culture and history in a nutshell
http//i.imgur.com/z6vmaWO.png
http//i.imgur.com/Bpfto8t.jpgWestern-European Muslim apologists = FAIL.
And I do not care about religious homelands establishing themselves in South-Asia. Let me be clear I do not want religious homelands in the Middle-east. I want the best for the Middle-east, I could care less about Europe or South-Asia. Give the Jews Denmark instead- After all this country was a HUGE Nazi country during WW2 and oppressed the Jews big time. It would be an Arab dream come true to see Denmark breaking up.
and encourage Palestinians to apply democratic and secular values in their territories in order for the West to take them more seriously.
Nobody takes the Westerners seriously when they try to act civilized and democratic. You read their history - you'd think that Satan was from there. The Westerners have a history of a carpet, yet they enjoy pretending to be 'civilized' oh dear. The fact that the Western nations are supportng Israel and are contributing to the creation of the Islamic State(By not preventing the jihadists from leaving Europe) just like they contributed to the creation of Israel makes the Westerners uncivilized. If these Europeans have shown us anything, it's only that they're uncivilized and nothing else. All the reasons to put them on a terrorist list. Hundreds/Thousands of years ago, the West was a living hell. History proves it.
