Religion - A view point from logical point of view
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Hello, just my two cents here
If Israel was created as a religious homeland, giving citizenship to non-natives for whom the state was not originally created and expanding the space of the country to accommodate more Jews as such, then of course it is unfair. But I doubt planning to nuke the country and innocent civilians would be the solution, or would calm the hostility between Israel and the rest of the Arab countries.
That's pretty much my point too. I don't get how seething and raging for decades and decades to come, planning on nuking an entire country filled with a lot of innocent civilians, would help. You can't blame Israel for now on being high on defense. Maybe that is why some of Israel's moves look so swiftly brutal. Because they know exactly what the people around them have in mind, and they can't afford to be harmed or appear weak and hence give in to attacks by their neighbouring countries and people.
Besides that, Israel is already way too powerful. Also they are doing a good job in terms of advancement of science and technology, and benefitting the world through it. Can't Palestinians find a way to get past their past and negotiate actual terms of peace with Israel, instead of secretly always having a plan to nuke them once and for all, but co-exist peacefully? Palestine don't have much of a choice for now. They can keep cursing and planning against Israel, and let their country go down in the dumps and again blame people left and right for their troubles, or they can actually take steps to mend all this, try to put the past behind, at least for the sake of ending this warfare, killing people, and the volatile nature of the security of their people. And they can start building up their country once again. Till then I doubt the troubles of Palestinians would end, and of playing the victim who doesn't have a say and is dependent on others for their progress or troubles. Just saying.
Peace,
Samira
I agree with you 100 percent handshake
Peace
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I dont see how this topic went so far off-topic when someone mentioned Israel but my thoughts on Israel. Israel is not the problem. Zionism is a problem. One needs to be able to distinct those two things. When one listens carefully to what the biggest enemies of the Israeli state tell in their rethoric then you'll find it is most often targeting zionism. The often quoted Iranian narrative (driving Israel into the sea) is actually dating back from the 1970's and has not been reiterated since then. Every Iranian official after that specifically mentions wanting to destroy zionism. Media likes to interchange these two things but they aren't the same thing.
A non-zionist state is possible. This requires a true democracy and the right of return for all Palestinians that suffered loss during Nakash. Therefor the only valid solution to the problem is a one state solution. If you are talking about a two state solution then it denies the rights of Palestinians the right to return. Refusing that right is a violation of human rights.
Netanyahu though has been pushing to make the state officially a Jewish state by constitution which would make it no longer a democracy and truly a zionist state by constitution. If that gets implemented the Palestinian return to their homeland is denied by the zionist movement in Israel.
I have no issue with an Israeli state. I have huge issues with the fascist zionist movement though.
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What makes something comparable to this Surah impossible to produce?
Two possibilities that may have been mentioned already that occur to me ( trying to be logical here)
- it is a much more meaningful and complex piece of literature than most people can perceive - with or wihout a code. So someone may think they can reproduce something as good or better, but only on the level they are operating, not all the levels that it contains. People on that particular level might be pulled away from the Quran as the definitive text, but maybe that is what the Author wants to happen People who do not strive to get to higher levels will get in a rut anyways so the Author want to get that phase overwith, and this verse gets that purification process going. This is not provable though, just a way to think about the larger purpose for the verse.
and/or
- The Prophet recited these words seemingly off the top of his head to an audience..."on the spot", so to speak. He did not prepare it ahead of time as he was not an accomplished writer or scholar. Everyone who heard him witnessed this, and it was not something anyone else could do " on the spot". In fact, I would say that this is still true, and we always be true.
If you don't believe that is how the Quran came into being...on the spot recitation...than this will not work for you.We can't know for sure it came into being in this way, but Mohammed sure was a busy person, so I am not sure how he could have found time to write 'conventionally'.
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A third possibility
Maybe this verse is really a warning against rushing and taking things out of context, never mind higher levels of meaning i mentioned previously. To produce something comparable, you'd have to make sure it fits as well as this Chapter does in a context as complex as the Quran - a very hard and time consuming project.
Forget about the Quran otr this Surah itself, the warning has general applicability, because rushing to judgement out of greed or ego about ANYTHING is foolish at best, dangerous and deadly at worst.
The Quran is a very easy text to abuse by taking things out of context. I think it makes it very easy for true Moslems to spot the fakes, and has more practical value than the Bible in that way.
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I dont see how this topic went so far off-topic when someone mentioned Israel but my thoughts on Israel. Israel is not the problem. Zionism is a problem. One needs to be able to distinct those two things. When one listens carefully to what the biggest enemies of the Israeli state tell in their rethoric then you'll find it is most often targeting zionism. The often quoted Iranian narrative (driving Israel into the sea) is actually dating back from the 1970's and has not been reiterated since then. Every Iranian official after that specifically mentions wanting to destroy zionism. Media likes to interchange these two things but they aren't the same thing.
A non-zionist state is possible. This requires a true democracy and the right of return for all Palestinians that suffered loss during Nakash. Therefor the only valid solution to the problem is a one state solution. If you are talking about a two state solution then it denies the rights of Palestinians the right to return. Refusing that right is a violation of human rights.
Netanyahu though has been pushing to make the state officially a Jewish state by constitution which would make it no longer a democracy and truly a zionist state by constitution. If that gets implemented the Palestinian return to their homeland is denied by the zionist movement in Israel.
I have no issue with an Israeli state. I have huge issues with the fascist zionist movement though.
I used to be a supporter of the two-state but now I think it's load of European BS. And I'm not a supporter of a one-state solution either unless the Palestinians are given back their entire country and what I mean by this is that the Palestinians are the one who gets to govern their own country and not the Israelies(The Israelies would have to become citizens first just like the way it was prior to Israels independance)- The founding fathers of Israel were European Jews who are in NO WAY related to Palestine and its history. They should go back to Europe IMO. Why should the Palestinians negotiate over any solution despite the fact that the "British Mandate A Survey of Palestine" (prepared by the British Mandate for UN prior to proposing the 1947 partition plan) and a Palestinian map(1945) from United Nation's website shows that not only did the Palestinians own the majority of the land(The Jews barely owned anything and were outnumbered in all villages) but also the fact that many Jews were Illegal Immigrants from Europe who escaped their brethren's attrocities. In any case they were 'guests' in Palestine.
A Palestinian map from United Nation's website shows that Palestinian Arabs owned almost the entire country and outnumbered Jewish settlements in all cities prior to Israels independance. Source for the picture http//domino.un.org/maps/m0094.jpg
If this is NOT stealing then I don't know what it is
http//i.imgur.com/LbnzeNa.jpg
Israel has done a good job in wiping Palestine off the map while crying about how Iran threatned it with being removed from the map. Hypocrisy at its best. Many people have not yet been able to dispute any of this- The arguments they try to bring is the fact that Israel is a 'sovereign' nation(Thanks to its European/Western warmongering regimes) therefor it has the right to do what it does. Please tell me how Israel can be considered a sovereign nation especially when the Israelies were orginally Europeans like their European friends that recognized them as a state - Of course the UN(A European organisation) will support its European brethren. The UN is NOT perfect either- Even it makes mistakes and recognizing Israel was one of them. For example, many people in the UN assume that these European Jews are somehow related to Palestine when they aren't and that 'Jew' is an ethnic term. 'Jew' is NO ethnicity or even a nationality- He/She is an adherent of Judaism. Anybody can convert to Judaism and converts have equally as high status as those who are born as Jews.
No pro-Israeli wants to discuss ethics and morals or the fact that a Jew is an adherent of Judaism(Not an ethnicity) and that the founding fathers of Israel were European Jews- All they can bring up is how Israel is somehow a 'sovereign' nation(illegaly). The European Jews can not be 'granted' anything given the fact that they were never even from Palestine to begin with, hence 'EUROPEAN' and can therefor not be granted things they do NOT own. Therefor Israel is an illegal state that has absolutely no right to exist and given the fact that the UN has done a mistake Israel can't really be considered 'sovereign' either. The worst thing Israel did? It was to deny the right of the Palestinian refugees to return. What is a country without its natives? I'm sure if Moses was alive today he would want the European Jews to screw back to Europe. And the reason why the UN had to take action regarding Palestine fast was to prevent a civil-war which it failed to do. And giving European Jews a part of Palestinian land is called STEALING.
Netanyahu though has been pushing to make the state officially a Jewish state by constitution which would make it no longer a democracy and truly a zionist state by constitution.
I totally agree. This is exactly what I've been trying to say- There is a lot of Jewish superiority running inside Israeli politics that it's even hard to consider it a secular nation. Israel recognizes itself as a 'Jewish state' which contradicts secularism IMO and whether it's 'democratic' is really laughable.
Back in the days it was even illegal to carry a Palestinian flag in Israhell- Anybody doing it was arrested.
Embarassing facts about Israel
Few Palestinians serve in the military, though they constitute nearly 20 percent of the population. The U.S. got rid of that discrimination in 1948.
A Barack Obama could never be appointed Prime Minister; Palestinian political parties don?t count when it comes to forming governing coalitions. The U.S. got rid of that discrimination in 1964.
About 5 million Palestinians live without rights in permanently occupied territories, right alongside Jews who do have rights. The U.S. got rid of that system with the end of slavery in the 1860s and then Jim Crow 100 years later.When Jews walk through the streets of Jerusalem saying Death to the Arabs, and when Israel grabs another 1000 acres of the West Bank to build a Jewish settlement, these aggressive acts come out of a religious ideology. And the failure to separate church and state.
There is no denying of the fact that the Middle East is mostly ruled by autocratic, oppressive, and undemocratic regimes. On the other hand, the majority of these repressive regimes were mostly founded and funded based on Israeli and American wishes. It should be noted that the most popular revolts in the Middle East have been ruthlessly crushed by American puppet regimes (whom the West often refer to by "Moderate regimes" in the area. The regimes in Iraq, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, the Hashemite Kingdom, Lebanon (before the civil war), Arab Gulf States, Morocco, Iran (prior to the Islamic revolution), Turkey, ... etc., were all funded and directed by the United States of America; the land of the free and the home of the brave. Sadly, many of the so called "moderate regimes" are ten times more accountable to Uncle Sam than to their own public. Ironically, if democracy truly shall serve Israel's national interests in the region, then maybe it should direct its powerful lobby in Washington, AIPAC, to start lobbying on behalf of the oppressed in the Middle East; after all promoting "democracy is the key" to a lasting peace in the Middle East?
I was born in a very secular democratic nation- My country does NOT recognize itself as a 'Christian state'- Infact it would be laughed by the majority people here and would end up with getting rid of from my country's constitution. My country in particular makes Israel and its 'Jewish state' look like a joke and Israel can keep hiding behind 'democracy' and so on - Want a REAL democratic nation? Take a look at Sweden. Only some people supports Israel- These are the European/American warmongerers the same Europeans/Americans that want 'friendly regimes' in the Middle-east. The Arab world is in need of somebody like Saladin. He sent the Europeans directly to hell if they tried to touch Jerusalem. And why do people complain about Israel being surrounded by 'eevil moozlem hordes' when Israel doesn't belong in the Middle-east anyway? It's simple, you occupy an Arab country, you get hundreds of enemies. You leave the Arab countries alone, they leave you alone. You CAN'T KILL Arab citizens and then expect not to face retaliations. Europeans don't want the Palestinians to defend themselves, and if the Palestinians defend themselves they are known as aggressors. Any person around the world has the right to defend his home and family when attacked, however, in the West a Palestinian does not have that right despite that his home and farms were stolen by Holocaust survivals. Westerners (especially Europeans) for centuries took turns gang rapping their Jewish citizens, and because of that their guilty conscious burns them from the inside out. This guilty conscious (beside the powerful Zionists lobby) are the reasons why the West covers up Israeli war crimes and continues to paint Israeli apartheid as "the only democracy in the Middle East". Somebody else has to pay for their crimes against their Jews so long it is not a Westerner who pays the price; this way they can sleep well at night.
Nothing is more anti-semitic than Europe(It killed about 6 million EUROPEAN Jews plus the other EUROPEAN Jews that were killed prior to Hitler) with its history and Israel IMO. And just because Israel is considered the 'only democracy' in the Middle-east(Which is laughable) that doesn't give Israel the right to establish itself in the Middle-east. Why does America support Israel when America itself is based on Arab/Iranian Immigrants that are empowering its worthless and pathetic economy? America, the land of the 'brave'(A pathetic warmongering country) wants war with Iran despite the fact that America is based on Immigration(Partly Iranians) too. America should stop VETOing all the actions on Israel and go back to handing out more VISAs to Immigrants(Especially from Iran) because many of its own citizens are useless just like in Europe.
If any Westerner is going to talk about anti-semetism then please by all means point out the West as the biggest anti-semite region worldwide. Not only because of the Holocaust but also because it supports a terrorist state which expelled loads of semites from their orginal homeland.
And IMO Nethanjahu is not the only person pushing for a 'Jewish state'- Almost the entire Israeli population is.
The often quoted Iranian narrative (driving Israel into the sea) is actually dating back from the 1970's and has not been reiterated since then. Every Iranian official after that specifically mentions wanting to destroy zionism. Media likes to interchange these two things but they aren't the same thing.
The Israelies are trying to interpret the Iranians in a way wrong on a purpose. Ahmedinjad for example never said he wanted to wipe Israel off the map and was infact misunderstood meanwhile Israel is wiping Palestine off the map. Israel is no different than the Islamic State. The Islamic State consist of uneducated European/South-Asian Islamists/barbarians that are occupying Iraqi land killing Iraqis while thinking that they represent Islam in the same way Israel consists of uneducated European/Soviet Zionists/barbarians that are occupying Palestinian land killing Palestinians while thinking they represent Judaism. The worst part? Israel has managed to move millions of Jews into Palestine making it harder for it to remove the parasite. Any attempts will result in bloodshed because of Israhell.
This website http//www.palestineremembered.com/ZionistFAQ.html has been edited by Mark Kober- Smith, an anti-Zionist British Jew. Over several months, Mark put an incredible amount of time and effort to bring this section to what it is today. To all who keep saying anti-semitic for criticizing Israel; What ABOUT the Anti-Zionist Jews? Are they 'self-hating Jews'? This IS why I don't take people seriously when they call others anti-semites for simply criticizing Israel. There is absolutely nothing more anti-semitic than Israel in the same way there is absolutely nothing more anti-Islamic than the Islamic State.
FACTS A Palestinian is more likely to be the native of the land than a EUROPEAN Jew. "Palestinian" is a lot more older than "Israeli". 'IsraeLIES' did NOT exist thousands of years ago, they were called "Israelites" instead and they were NOT Europeans. Palestinians owned the majority of the land and outnumbered Jewish settlements in ALL villages. The Jews barely owned anything of Palestine and most of them were NEVER orginally from Palestine but rather from Europe who escaped their brethren's attrocities. The first prime-minister and founding father of Israel was not even born in Israel.
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I dont see how this topic went so far off-topic when someone mentioned Israel but my thoughts on Israel. Israel is not the problem. Zionism is a problem. One needs to be able to distinct those two things. When one listens carefully to what the biggest enemies of the Israeli state tell in their rethoric then you'll find it is most often targeting zionism. The often quoted Iranian narrative (driving Israel into the sea) is actually dating back from the 1970's and has not been reiterated since then. Every Iranian official after that specifically mentions wanting to destroy zionism. Media likes to interchange these two things but they aren't the same thing.
A non-zionist state is possible. This requires a true democracy and the right of return for all Palestinians that suffered loss during Nakash. Therefor the only valid solution to the problem is a one state solution. If you are talking about a two state solution then it denies the rights of Palestinians the right to return. Refusing that right is a violation of human rights.
Netanyahu though has been pushing to make the state officially a Jewish state by constitution which would make it no longer a democracy and truly a zionist state by constitution. If that gets implemented the Palestinian return to their homeland is denied by the zionist movement in Israel.
I have no issue with an Israeli state. I have huge issues with the fascist zionist movement though.
yes but how do you define zionism?
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I used to be a supporter of the two-state but now I think it's load of European BS. And I'm not a supporter of a one-state solution either unless the Palestinians are given back their entire country and what I mean by this is that the Palestinians are the one who gets to govern their own country and not the Israelies(The Israelies would have to become citizens first just like the way it was prior to Israels independance)- The founding fathers of Israel were European Jews who are in NO WAY related to Palestine and its history. They should go back to Europe IMO. Why should the Palestinians negotiate over any solution despite the fact that the "British Mandate A Survey of Palestine" (prepared by the British Mandate for UN prior to proposing the 1947 partition plan) and a Palestinian map(1945) from United Nation's website shows that not only did the Palestinians own the majority of the land(The Jews barely owned anything and were outnumbered in all villages) but also the fact that many Jews were Illegal Immigrants from Europe who escaped their brethren's attrocities. In any case they were 'guests' in Palestine.
A Palestinian map from United Nation's website shows that Palestinian Arabs owned almost the entire country and outnumbered Jewish settlements in all cities prior to Israels independance. Source for the picture http//domino.un.org/maps/m0094.jpg
If this is NOT stealing then I don't know what it is
http//i.imgur.com/LbnzeNa.jpg
Israel has done a good job in wiping Palestine off the map while crying about how Iran threatned it with being removed from the map. Hypocrisy at its best. Many people have not yet been able to dispute any of this- The arguments they try to bring is the fact that Israel is a 'sovereign' nation(Thanks to its European/Western warmongering regimes) therefor it has the right to do what it does. Please tell me how Israel can be considered a sovereign nation especially when the Israelies were orginally Europeans like their European friends that recognized them as a state - Of course the UN(A European organisation) will support its European brethren. The UN is NOT perfect either- Even it makes mistakes and recognizing Israel was one of them. For example, many people in the UN assume that these European Jews are somehow related to Palestine when they aren't and that 'Jew' is an ethnic term. 'Jew' is NO ethnicity or even a nationality- He/She is an adherent of Judaism. Anybody can convert to Judaism and converts have equally as high status as those who are born as Jews.
No pro-Israeli wants to discuss ethics and morals or the fact that a Jew is an adherent of Judaism(Not an ethnicity) and that the founding fathers of Israel were European Jews- All they can bring up is how Israel is somehow a 'sovereign' nation(illegaly). The European Jews can not be 'granted' anything given the fact that they were never even from Palestine to begin with, hence 'EUROPEAN' and can therefor not be granted things they do NOT own. Therefor Israel is an illegal state that has absolutely no right to exist and given the fact that the UN has done a mistake Israel can't really be considered 'sovereign' either. The worst thing Israel did? It was to deny the right of the Palestinian refugees to return. What is a country without its natives? I'm sure if Moses was alive today he would want the European Jews to screw back to Europe. And the reason why the UN had to take action regarding Palestine fast was to prevent a civil-war which it failed to do. And giving European Jews a part of Palestinian land is called STEALING.
I totally agree. This is exactly what I've been trying to say- There is a lot of Jewish superiority running inside Israeli politics that it's even hard to consider it a secular nation. Israel recognizes itself as a 'Jewish state' which contradicts secularism IMO and whether it's 'democratic' is really laughable.
Back in the days it was even illegal to carry a Palestinian flag in Israhell- Anybody doing it was arrested.
Embarassing facts about Israel
Few Palestinians serve in the military, though they constitute nearly 20 percent of the population. The U.S. got rid of that discrimination in 1948.
A Barack Obama could never be appointed Prime Minister; Palestinian political parties don?t count when it comes to forming governing coalitions. The U.S. got rid of that discrimination in 1964.
About 5 million Palestinians live without rights in permanently occupied territories, right alongside Jews who do have rights. The U.S. got rid of that system with the end of slavery in the 1860s and then Jim Crow 100 years later.When Jews walk through the streets of Jerusalem saying Death to the Arabs, and when Israel grabs another 1000 acres of the West Bank to build a Jewish settlement, these aggressive acts come out of a religious ideology. And the failure to separate church and state.
There is no denying of the fact that the Middle East is mostly ruled by autocratic, oppressive, and undemocratic regimes. On the other hand, the majority of these repressive regimes were mostly founded and funded based on Israeli and American wishes. It should be noted that the most popular revolts in the Middle East have been ruthlessly crushed by American puppet regimes (whom the West often refer to by "Moderate regimes" in the area. The regimes in Iraq, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, the Hashemite Kingdom, Lebanon (before the civil war), Arab Gulf States, Morocco, Iran (prior to the Islamic revolution), Turkey, ... etc., were all funded and directed by the United States of America; the land of the free and the home of the brave. Sadly, many of the so called "moderate regimes" are ten times more accountable to Uncle Sam than to their own public. Ironically, if democracy truly shall serve Israel's national interests in the region, then maybe it should direct its powerful lobby in Washington, AIPAC, to start lobbying on behalf of the oppressed in the Middle East; after all promoting "democracy is the key" to a lasting peace in the Middle East?
I was born in a very secular democratic nation- My country does NOT recognize itself as a 'Christian state'- Infact it would be laughed by the majority people here and would end up with getting rid of from my country's constitution. My country in particular makes Israel and its 'Jewish state' look like a joke and Israel can keep hiding behind 'democracy' and so on - Want a REAL democratic nation? Take a look at Sweden. Only some people supports Israel- These are the European/American warmongerers the same Europeans/Americans that want 'friendly regimes' in the Middle-east. The Arab world is in need of somebody like Saladin. He sent the Europeans directly to hell if they tried to touch Jerusalem. And why do people complain about Israel being surrounded by 'eevil moozlem hordes' when Israel doesn't belong in the Middle-east anyway? It's simple, you occupy an Arab country, you get hundreds of enemies. You leave the Arab countries alone, they leave you alone. You CAN'T KILL Arab citizens and then expect not to face retaliations. Europeans don't want the Palestinians to defend themselves, and if the Palestinians defend themselves they are known as aggressors. Any person around the world has the right to defend his home and family when attacked, however, in the West a Palestinian does not have that right despite that his home and farms were stolen by Holocaust survivals. Westerners (especially Europeans) for centuries took turns gang rapping their Jewish citizens, and because of that their guilty conscious burns them from the inside out. This guilty conscious (beside the powerful Zionists lobby) are the reasons why the West covers up Israeli war crimes and continues to paint Israeli apartheid as "the only democracy in the Middle East". Somebody else has to pay for their crimes against their Jews so long it is not a Westerner who pays the price; this way they can sleep well at night.
Nothing is more anti-semitic than Europe(It killed about 6 million EUROPEAN Jews plus the other EUROPEAN Jews that were killed prior to Hitler) with its history and Israel IMO. And just because Israel is considered the 'only democracy' in the Middle-east(Which is laughable) that doesn't give Israel the right to establish itself in the Middle-east. Why does America support Israel when America itself is based on Arab/Iranian Immigrants that are empowering its worthless and pathetic economy? America, the land of the 'brave'(A pathetic warmongering country) wants war with Iran despite the fact that America is based on Immigration(Partly Iranians) too. America should stop VETOing all the actions on Israel and go back to handing out more VISAs to Immigrants(Especially from Iran) because many of its own citizens are useless just like in Europe.
If any Westerner is going to talk about anti-semetism then please by all means point out the West as the biggest anti-semite region worldwide. Not only because of the Holocaust but also because it supports a terrorist state which expelled loads of semites from their orginal homeland.
And IMO Nethanjahu is not the only person pushing for a 'Jewish state'- Almost the entire Israeli population is.
The Israelies are trying to interpret the Iranians in a way wrong on a purpose. Ahmedinjad for example never said he wanted to wipe Israel off the map and was infact misunderstood meanwhile Israel is wiping Palestine off the map. Israel is no different than the Islamic State. The Islamic State consist of uneducated European/South-Asian Islamists/barbarians that are occupying Iraqi land killing Iraqis while thinking that they represent Islam in the same way Israel consists of uneducated European/Soviet Zionists/barbarians that are occupying Palestinian land killing Palestinians while thinking they represent Judaism. The worst part? Israel has managed to move millions of Jews into Palestine making it harder for it to remove the parasite. Any attempts will result in bloodshed because of Israhell.
This website http//www.palestineremembered.com/ZionistFAQ.html has been edited by Mark Kober- Smith, an anti-Zionist British Jew. Over several months, Mark put an incredible amount of time and effort to bring this section to what it is today. To all who keep saying anti-semitic for criticizing Israel; What ABOUT the Anti-Zionist Jews? Are they 'self-hating Jews'? This IS why I don't take people seriously when they call others anti-semites for simply criticizing Israel. There is absolutely nothing more anti-semitic than Israel in the same way there is absolutely nothing more anti-Islamic than the Islamic State.
FACTS A Palestinian is more likely to be the native of the land than a EUROPEAN Jew. "Palestinian" is a lot more older than "Israeli". 'IsraeLIES' did NOT exist thousands of years ago, they were called "Israelites" instead and they were NOT Europeans. Palestinians owned the majority of the land and outnumbered Jewish settlements in ALL villages. The Jews barely owned anything of Palestine and most of them were NEVER orginally from Palestine but rather from Europe who escaped their brethren's attrocities. The first prime-minister and founding father of Israel was not even born in Israel.
Listen my friend, you need to be realistic. Whatever was in the past is not present today, today the reality is that Israel exist whether you like it or not. And Israel is not going anywhere. So a two state solution is the only realistic solution today.
You keep talking about history instead of talking about the current reality.
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As a nationalist political movement that is abusing religion to achieve secular political goals.
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Listen my friend, you need to be realistic. Whatever was in the past is not present today, today the reality is that Israel exist whether you like it or not. And Israel is not going anywhere. So a two state solution is the only realistic solution today.
You keep talking about history instead of talking about the current reality.
A two state solution violates the palestinian human right to return home. The only just solution is a one-state solution. That one state can be called Israel but it has to grant citizenship to any palestinian. That would mean an Arab majority in Israel. Which would in turn lead to Israel no longer being a Jewish state. Isn't democracy just lovely? Or only when it works in your advantage?
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Democracy does not work without people who are just and of decent moral standard. In fact nothing works without the right people. And you can have different kinds of democratic styles, so it can vary what you believe in. And if a majority of people believe in bad ruling systems it does not help if you are a democracy since you vote forth your leaders.
Democracy is a tool and a system, but it does not help if there are no good alternatives or people are deluded into voting for a bad/extremist alternative or the constitution has loopholes and/or can be abused and changed easily to the bad party's advantage.
So without a solid foundation and an enlightened population, the democratic principle will not help. And many modern democracies had to go to civil war over their current system or at least some turmoil. And it is not always it turns right.
Salaam
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Democracy does not work without people who are just and of decent moral standard. In fact nothing works without the right people. And you can have different kinds of democratic styles, so it can vary what you believe in. And if a majority of people believe in bad ruling systems it does not help if you are a democracy since you vote forth your leaders.
Democracy is a tool and a system, but it does not help if there are no good alternatives or people are deluded into voting for a bad/extremist alternative or the constitution has loopholes and/or can be abused and changed easily to the bad party's advantage.
So without a solid foundation and an enlightened population, the democratic principle will not help. And many modern democracies had to go to civil war over their current system or at least some turmoil. And it is not always it turns right.
Salaam
Correct.. if majority of the people are robber... they will elect the baddest and meanest robber as their leader..
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@Man of Faith
Democracy does not work without people who are just and of decent moral standard. In fact nothing works without the right people. And you can have different kinds of democratic styles, so it can vary what you believe in. And if a majority of people believe in bad ruling systems it does not help if you are a democracy since you vote forth your leaders.
This is SPOT ON regarding the condition of people in my home country, Bangladesh. We have more democracy, but people can be lured into voting for a particular political party due to their lack of education and taking advantage of their poverty levels by giving them incentives if they vote for that party. Also people who are narrow minded end up voting for narrow minded politicians as well. I would say to bring a number of positive changes in our country, democracy needs to be minimized or taken away from the country if possible, and more honest, intelligent, well-educated and spiritual type people need to be appointed to make decisions with or without the public's approval. I am afraid of a monopoly political system not having a good mindset of their's though taking over, which may bring further problems into the country.
So without a solid foundation and an enlightened population, the democratic principle will not help.
This is a spot on statement as well.
Peace.
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Correct.. if majority of the people are robber... they will elect the baddest and meanest robber as their leader..
Yeah, also can say if majority people have corrupted mindset, such as in some of the third world countries, they may end up electing another similar type person as well to be their leader.
Peace.
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A two state solution violates the palestinian human right to return home. The only just solution is a one-state solution. That one state can be called Israel but it has to grant citizenship to any palestinian. That would mean an Arab majority in Israel. Which would in turn lead to Israel no longer being a Jewish state. Isn't democracy just lovely? Or only when it works in your advantage?
Palestine would be created by a two state solution, and Palestinians can return home to Palestine. And hopefully Palestine can live peacefully with its Israeli neighbor.
Peace
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Correct.. if majority of the people are robber... they will elect the baddest and meanest robber as their leader..
Wrong. A robber would not like to be robbed by others, just like a cheater would not like to be cheated on. So if majority of the people are robber.. they will precisely never elect another robber to rob them.
Peace
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Yeah, also can say if majority people have corrupted mindset, such as in some of the third world countries, they may end up electing another similar type person as well to be their leader.
Peace.
If majority of people have a corrupt mindset, they would elect someone who can ensure that the corruption continues.
Peace
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If majority of people have a corrupt mindset, they would elect someone who can ensure that the corruption continues.
Peace
I thought you might like this
http//www.asitis.com/10/I wrote this earlier as well to someone who was saying they were having trouble with the concept because they felt angry towards God because of bad things happening
"You shouldn't shake that feeling. People worship God for their own sake, not for the sake of God, they are supposed to worship God as an act of acknowledging their state of utter surrender, that even if one hates the world, hates God, hates the way things are, hates what has happened, there is no other God, there is no other source, there is no other life, there is only the Ultimate power and it does whatever it wants and we are helpless before it, we can not defeat it, if we could defeat it we should defeat it, we have slayed all the other idols, now this God, we can not kill it, it is the foe that can not be defeated, so all we can do is surrender, we give up "You are the God, My Master, I can not defeat you, none can defeat you, I surrender!".
People should worship God and nothing else for this reason.
God did not ask for blind obedience or love in the modern sense of the word (agape means to "turn towards" to "give attention to", but you are either "blindly obedient" or "obedient with sight", because no matter what you do, it is the will of God.
So will you let your foe, the greatest foe of all, get the better of you by being one of those that he has promised to harm in the afterlife? Even if God does not keep that promise, will you be those who do not acknowledge the reality of things? The reality is our state of surrender, so why not seek what benefit you can from the Destroyer, from the one that can not be defeated. If we could kill God, we should have spent all our effort in that endeavor, but we can not, God is what reality and experience relies on in order to exist, and can not be killed or harmed in the least, and we are just doing whatever God ultimately wants, so our only choice is surrender and seeking benefit from the source of everything.
Hate God with all your heart, think these thoughts to their maximum extent, and allow yourself to freely despise God, because God knows your suffering and has also caused it, there is nothing you can hide from God, it comes from God as well. When you hate God, you purify your religion, that even in hatred you acknowledge the reality of surrender.
The Religion is Surrender, that is the Only Religion.
319
Lo! religion with Allah (is) the Surrender. Those who (formerly) received the Scripture differed only after knowledge came unto them, through transgression among themselves. Whoso disbelieveth the revelations of Allah (will find that) lo! Allah is swift at reckoning.383
Is it then other than Allah's religion that they seek (to follow), and to Him
surrenders whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and to Him shall they be returned.Bhagavad Gita
http//www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-18-62.html
"Relinquishing all ideas of righteousness, surrender unto Me exclusively; I will deliver you from all sinful reactions, do not despair."Psalm 377
Surrender yourself to the LORD, and wait patiently for him. Do not be preoccupied with who succeeds in his way when he carries out his schemes.James 47
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.1 Peter 56
Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time.James 410
Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.Luke 125
But I will show you whom you should fear Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.Lamentations 338
Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?Isaiah 457
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.Deuteronomy 3239
??See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.2 Chronicles 206
and said "LORD, the God of our ancestors, are you not the God who is in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. Power and might are in your hand, and no one can withstand you. -
If majority of people have a corrupt mindset, they would elect someone who can ensure that the corruption continues.
Peace
Spot on, Maha. This is exactly what is happening in my country to an extent.
Peace.
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Spot on, Maha. This is exactly what is happening in my country to an extent.
Peace.
I'm curious as to what country that might be? It seems the same in most places though.
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You can't negotiate a two-solution with Israel. It's a waiste of time given the fact that Israel is only going to violate any 'peace-treaty' or try and provoke its enemies and then later on pretending to be the victim. Israel is already violating International law by annexing more land in the West bank while dropping bombs on Gaza. Sadly no action is taken against Israel because the US is good at VETO'ing everything. The UN has put several resolutions on Israel calling it to give back all the territories it has stolen. And I really don't understand why America is in the UN given the fact that it has a history of a carpet and many idiotic yankee politicians governing the country can't even point out Iran on the map. That said, Israel HAS violated international laws SEVERAL times. And the UN has not only called Israel to give back all the stolen land but also to give the right of the Palestinian refugees to return to their homes.
The only realistic solution is that the Arab countries merge into ONE country and that the European countries and religion are NOT given billions of dollars. The Arab countries already have enough manpower to put down NATO, Israel and ISIS combined. Sadly Israel is using its own civilians as humanshield by moving an entire foreign Jewish population into Palestine because it knows that by this way the Arab countries will never strike otherwhise it would result in bloodshed. Israelies know as much as anybody else that they don't really belong in Palestine. Merging into one country will prevent Israel from pulling anymore attacks on Gaza letalone the West Bank given the fact that any attack on Gaza or the West Bank will give the Arab countries the right to annilihate Israel. As long as billions of dollars flow to a bunch of worthless Europeans and to Islamist groups- Israel will keep eating Palestinian land without caring about the consquences from the Arab league given the fact that the Arab countries are too busy making deals with European terrorists. Rather for the Wahabbi dictator Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz giving Hillary Clinton(A Western warmongerer) diamond-and-ruby-encrusted jewels worth half a million dollars(http//www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2406099/The-lavish-gifts-given-President-Obama-Hillary-Clinton-foreign-dignitaries.html) he could have given it to the children of Palestine, Iraq or Syria instead.
Just like Ze'ev Jabotinsky, (the father of the Israeli political Right) wrote
"They look upon Palestine with the same instinctive love and true favor that Aztecs looked upon Mexico or any Sioux looked upon his prairie. Palestine will remain for the Palestinians not a borderland, but their birthplace, the center and basis of their own national existence." (Righteous Victims p. 36)
And the reason why I bring up history is because I want to show you the stupidity of the West and its support for Israel and also the failure and the stupidity of Israeli history. Now let's acknowledge the fact that Israeli history is FAIL and that Jews can not simply be given a homeland given the fact that they don't even have a common culture, traditions or own language (Some of them carried European culture others carried non-European culture). What country do the Jews have really? Israel? No sorry that belongs to the Canaanites and not even the Jews letalone the Israelites(Whom the EUROPEAN Jews have nothing to do with). Palestine has equally as much right as Israel to exist- And even more given the fact that a Palestinian is more likely to be the native of the land and that the founding fathers of Israel were 'guests' in Palestine and that the term 'Palestinian' is A LOT more older than 'Israeli'. IsraeLIES didin't even exist until 1948(When the Israelies AKA European Jews began looting and robbing Palestinian homes); They already have their own European/ex-Soviet countries to go back to. The Arab world could easily annilihate Israel hundred times over- But sadly because of corrupt and oppressive 'Arab' dictators that is never possible. For example- None wants to establish a united Arab world because this would mean that they would only loose power(due to corruption and oppression) and 'Islamic' nationalism would have been thrown into the trash bin already.
Zionism is Jewish nationalism like Islamism is 'Islamic' nationalism(It has nothing to do with Islam). If you support Zionism then you might as well support Nazism and Islamism too. And Zionism was orginally a response to European anti-semetism and has nothing to do with the Middle-east. In any case- The European Jews should be given a homeland in Europe. They can take Denmark, Poland, Britain, France and many other worthless European nations that supports Islamist groups. As a Scandinavian I will approve 100% as long as they leave Palestine alone. If the Europeans ever get occupied by any country then let them swallow their own medicines.
There is a lot of things that need to be taken care off in the Arab world. A lot of corruption goes on mostly by the Wahabbi regimes and any other 'moderate' regime that the West often refers by. For example, billions of dollars flow to Europe which is absolutely a waiste. The Arab world has plenty of Arab scientists in the US; bring them back. They have the oil; Use it correctly. Do NOT send it to a bunch of European warmongerers, South-Asian primitive idiots or religion. I believe that the Arab world can become a lot better than Europe and Israel combined but sadly because of Wahabbis that are spreading corruption it's not possible. Imagine if the $87 billions of dollars that were spent on Wahabbism were spent on Palestine and the other Arabised countries instead. Palestines liberation definently starts with the liberation of Saudi-Arabia and Qatar. The West does not want its allies to be liberated- It wants them to be ruled by friendly dictators because these dictators are useless that do not contribute anything to the Arab world but infact destroys the Arab world while contributing to the garbage Western economy.