Hot/"ramadan" Answer
-
Peace Ayman,
Thanks so much for your post, it helped to clarify alot for me.
I agree with you about using the term calendar, it's a strong argument. I looked over the article again and I see you mentioned the 'year' being solar. However, can this be summarized as we follow a solar year but yet we use the moon to determine certain events?
Excuse me for my mistake in the verses about pregnancy and weaning, I see the difference thanks. I guess we are still left to figure out whether there is a difference between 'sanah' and 'aam'.
I got a reply from the woman of that article. I am amazed at how open minded she is and the reply was really welcoming. I also shared with her the same point that the God mentions about the sabt in relation to previous people but He is not asking us to observe such. We are concerned about the fasting, hajj and the forbidden time period.
Thank you again and as more questions arise or I need help in clarifying an issue I will post except as the God wills.
Umm Tariq
-
Peace all;
It is one month according to your Lord; let me tell you why?(٥
Ramadan month is the in which was sent down the Qur'an as a guide to mankind also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment. So everyone of you witness that month should fast it, but if anyone is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you He does not want to put you to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful. (2-185)Thus, the fasting is for a month of Ramadan.
Now how long is one month?
(٦
The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve so ordained by Him in the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred; that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves. (9-36)
Thus, one year is 12 months. And as we know, one year is the time when 4 seasons are completed (Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter), 365 days. Thus, one month is about 30 days. And if one month is ten days, then the year would be 12 month X 10 = 120 days (two seasons only).
Moreover, the following would show the length of one month
(٥
We have enjoined on man Kindness to his parents in pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth. The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is thirty months. At length, when he reaches the age of full strength and attains forty years, he says "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favor, which Thou hast bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness such as Thou mayest approve; and be gracious to me in my issue. Truly have I turned to Thee and truly do I bow (to Thee) in Islam." (46-15)
Is that how long does it take and not 30 month X 10 days= 300 days
(٤
Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same) for those who carry (life within their wombs) their period is until they deliver their burdens and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. (65-4)
As we all know, the woman gets her period every month (average every thirty days)
Thus, we have to Fast for one Month that equals 30 days average.
(٩
They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say they are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for men, and for pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back; it is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors and fear Allah that ye may prosper. (2-189)
Thus? the mark of Ramadan month is the beginning of new moon.
Peace
-
Salaams All,
So everyone of you witness that month should fast it
It is using lanes and the Quranic Dictionry something along the lines;
So everyone who sees or is witness to an act of treachury must shun it but if one doesn't realise the treachury they must shun it when they come to such a realisation later.
Of course we are all entiitled to our idols though , arn't we?
And remember just one month is named out a dozen?
And thirteen moons in a twelve month year!?
my conclusion;
There arn't any twelve months in the quran at all.
God Bless all.
-
Peace Belal,
Please don't post the same exact comment in several threads. As far as I know the forum rules don't allow double posting, let alone triple-posting.
Moderators I will address Belal's comments here on this thread.
It is one month according to your Lord; let me tell you why?
(٥
Ramadan month is the in which was sent down the Qur'an as a guide to mankind also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment. So everyone of you witness that month should fast it, but if anyone is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you He does not want to put you to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful. (2-185)
Thus, the fasting is for a month of Ramadan.But 2184 is clearly telling us that the fast is for a few days (ayam ma3doodat). So now you have created a contradiction between 2184 and 2185. Also, why would you need to complete the count of a month? A month is a month and there is no completion of a count issue. The only way that counting would be an issue is if "shahr ramadan" (the scorching full-moon) is a marker and not a timeframe.
Now how long is one month?
(٦
The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve so ordained by Him in the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred; that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves. (9-36)
Thus, one year is 12 months. And as we know, one year is the time when 4 seasons are completed (Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter), 365 days. Thus, one month is about 30 days. And if one month is ten days, then the year would be 12 month X 10 = 120 days (two seasons only).But 12x30 is 360 not 365. Why are you ignoring those extra five days? In fact there is NO calendar in the world that always has 30 days in a month.
Moreover, the following would show the length of one month
(٥
We have enjoined on man Kindness to his parents in pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth. The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is thirty months. At length, when he reaches the age of full strength and attains forty years, he says "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favor, which Thou hast bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness such as Thou mayest approve; and be gracious to me in my issue. Truly have I turned to Thee and truly do I bow (to Thee) in Islam." (46-15)
Is that how long does it take and not 30 month X 10 days= 300 daysThe word "shahr" means "full-moon" it doesn't mean 10 days. So your entire argument is based on nothing but a misunderstanding.
(٤
Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same) for those who carry (life within their wombs) their period is until they deliver their burdens and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. (65-4)
As we all know, the woman gets her period every month (average every thirty days)
Thus, we have to Fast for one Month that equals 30 days average.The average for menstruation is not 30 days. No woman I know menstruates for 30 days continuously (thank god because this would be a pretty miserable thing). Menstruation, like the full-moon is an event. So when the god is telling women in 2228 to count three menstruations, how do they count them? Do they count 90 days? Or do they count three menstruations (three events). Those two things are not the same and depending on when the woman's menstruation last occurred may give totally different results.
(٩
They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say they are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for men, and for pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back; it is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors and fear Allah that ye may prosper. (2-189)
Thus? the mark of Ramadan month is the beginning of new moon.This translation is false. The word "ahilat" doesn't mean new moons. It means crescents in general (both the waning and the waxing crescent). Also, the term "mawaqeet/meeqat"" in 2189 is used in the great reading to describe timing of when something ends not only when something begins.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Belal,
Please don't post the same exact comment in several threads. As far as I know the forum rules don't allow double posting, let alone triple-posting.
Moderators I will address Belal's comments here on this thread.
Peace Ayman,
My intention of doing so is very clear to my Lord; thus I had to do it even if would upset others. (Sorry)
But 2184 is clearly telling us that the fast is for a few days (ayam ma3doodat).
No, it means counted days; in other words, days that we can count and agree upon.
The root word for Ma3dodat is "3ad" which means Count.
The word Few is a translation of the arabic word " Kaleel". please see the use of such word in more than hundered verses (e.g., 7-86)So now you have created a contradiction between 2184 and 2185.
In 184 god says that fasting is for days that we can count, and in 185 He tell us about their count--the month of Ramadan (from the start of the Moon untill the start of the other moon--29 to 30 days).
Please note that God's order is
The letter "Ha" at the end of the word " Fa-lia-som-ha" (Fast it) refers to the word before, "The Month".
But 12x30 is 360 not 365. Why are you ignoring those extra five days? In fact there is NO calendar in the world that always has 30 days in a month.
Do you want to go off our main issue because of the five days ???
Well, go ask some one who can tell you why the Arabic calander is less that christian calander by 10 days (the Moslems use the moon and the other use the sun).The word "shahr" means "full-moon" it doesn't mean 10 days. So your entire argument is based on nothing but a misunderstanding.
Well, your understanding is yours, and not God's. God told us that the year has 12 months, which all of us can tastify that is true. for example, if I see a tree that its leafs are falling, I can see the same event again after 12 month.
The average for menstruation is not 30 days. No woman I know menstruates for 30 days continuously (thank god because this would be a pretty miserable thing).
Well, it is funny rotfl
Now, if a woman her period starts in June 1, 2008, then the 2nd will start in July 1, 2008.
How long it will stay is an answer that I did not provied.when the god is telling women in 2228 to count three menstruations, how do they count them? Do they count 90 days? Or do they count three menstruations (three events). Those two things are not the same and depending on when the woman's menstruation last occurred may give totally different results.
True, but
Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months
, and for those who have no courses (it is the same) for those who carry (life within their wombs) their period is until they deliver their burdens and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. (65-4)This translation is false. The word "ahilat" doesn't mean new moons. It means crescents in general (both the waning and the waxing crescent).
Agree
Also, the term "mawaqeet/meeqat"" in 2189 is used in the great reading to describe timing of when something ends not only when something begins.
Ok...Now the Month of Ramadan starts when we see the crescents, which means the end of the month before it (Shaban).
Peace
-
Peace Belal,
My intention of doing so is very clear to my Lord; thus I had to do it even if would upset others. (Sorry)
It doesn't upset others. The idea is that if everyone posted every message on three or four threads, then people will just start ignoring the messages the same way they ignore other repeated messages such as spam. So spaming the board with the exact same message on several threads is not productive.
No, it means counted days; in other words, days that we can count and agree upon.
The root word for Ma3dodat is "3ad" which means Count.
The word Few is a translation of the arabic word " Kaleel". please see the use of such word in more than hundered verses (e.g., 7-86)This is false because in 1220 we hear that Youssef was bought cheaply with a "few" Dirhams. What is the point if "counted" can mean any count such as a Million Dirhams?
Also, You are again ignoring to address the redundancy. Why say counted days and then saying what is according to you is 30 days (or whichever haphazard number you want to use for "month".
In 184 god says that fasting is for days that we can count, and in 185 He tell us about their count--the month of Ramadan (from the start of the Moon untill the start of the other moon--29 to 30 days).
Which is it that we are going to count 29 or 30? You can only COUNT one of them. Otherwise again what is the point of sayign "count" if it was going to be based on the moon cycle anyway and what you are counting is irrelevant?
Also, why say "complete the count in 2185 if it was already given as "30 days" or whatever "month" you conjure up.
Please note that God's order is
The letter "Ha" at the end of the word " Fa-lia-som-ha" (Fast it) refers to the word before, "The Month".So how do you witness a "month"? Isn't witnessing about SEEING? How can one see a "month"?
Also, "Fa-lia-som-ha" certainly doesn't mean "fasting the month or the entire period" since everyone would die if they fast "the month". So this is merely an indicator of the fast but it doesn't prescribe the number of days (a complete few days, i.e. 10) nor the length of the fast (dawn to sunset). Those are clarified by other means.
Do you want to go off our main issue because of the five days ???
It is the main issue but because you have no idea what to do with your missing five days you are now suddenly deciding that it is not the main issue.
Well, go ask some one who can tell you why the Arabic calander is less that christian calander by 10 days (the Moslems use the moon and the other use the sun).
But you use neither the sun or the moon. You made up an imaginary calendar with 30 days in a month. If you are simply copying the traditional so-called Moslem calendar then just say so.
Well, your understanding is yours, and not God's. God told us that the year has 12 months, which all of us can tastify that is true. for example, if I see a tree that its leafs are falling, I can see the same event again after 12 month.
Say this to yourself. If you are using the false so-called Moslem calendar the seasons will certainly shift. Also, using your false 360 days calendar, after a few years the seasons will also shift.
Well, it is funny rotfl
Now, if a woman her period starts in June 1, 2008, then the 2nd will start in July 1, 2008.
How long it will stay is an answer that I did not provied.So do you now agree to the indisputable fact that when the woman counts the menstruation she is counting the number of EVENTS and not how long it lasts?
True, but
Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months
, and for those who have no courses (it is the same) for those who carry (life within their wombs) their period is until they deliver their burdens and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. (65-4)So what is this "month"? Is it your imaginary 30 day month or some other "month"?
Or is counting the "shahr" the same like counting menstruations and waiting for the delivery of the baby. In other words, it is based on EVENTS and not some haphazard 30 day imaginary month.
Agree
Ok...Now the Month of Ramadan starts when we see the crescents, which means the end of the month before it (Shaban).So when does Shaban start?
Peace,
Ayman
-
This is false because in 1220 we hear that Youssef was bought cheaply with a "few" Dirhams. What is the point if "counted" can mean any count such as a Million Dirhams?
Peace,
Again, we can not translate the arabic words as you and all of us wish; In Yousuf story, God said "Thamen Bakth" which means Cheap Price, before saying a "Drahim M3dodat" which means a COUNTED Drahem. Do you think a human being Like Yousuf is Worth such a price in God's Opinion or not (Cheap)?Please...please, M3dodat means "can be Counted" and NOT FEW, according to ITS ROOT WORD
What is the Root Word For M3dodat?
Also, You are again ignoring to address the redundancy. Why say counted days and then saying what is according to you is 30 days (or whichever haphazard number you want to use for "month".
In Islamic Calender, The number of days in each month depends on the Moon Cycle--From born "Crescent) untill becomes Crescent again after 29 or 30 (and my believe is that it could be 31 as well).
They ask thee concerning the Crescent. Say they are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for men....... (2-189)
And that is how we count the days of the period.
Which is it that we are going to count 29 or 30? You can only COUNT one of them. Otherwise again what is the point of sayign "count" if it was going to be based on the moon cycle anyway and what you are counting is irrelevant?
I answered above.
Our main point is should we fast for a whole month or not, and what is the count of one month, is it 10 days or no less than Moon Cycle (28 0r 29 or 30 days).So how do you witness a "month"? Isn't witnessing about SEEING? How can one see a "month"?
To witness the Moon Crescent (2-189), per what GOD SAID.
Also, "Fa-lia-som-ha" certainly doesn't mean "fasting the month or the entire period" since everyone would die if they fast "the month". So this is merely an indicator of the fast but it doesn't prescribe the number of days (a complete few days, i.e. 10) nor the length of the fast (dawn to sunset). Those are clarified by other means.
We have explained in detail in this Qur'an, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude but man is, in most things contentious. (18-54)
We like to argue, do we? ;D
How to fast per day, and for how many days is shown in the Quran in chapter two.It is the main issue but because you have no idea what to do with your missing five days you are now suddenly deciding that it is not the main issue.
But you use neither the sun or the moon. You made up an imaginary calendar with 30 days in a month. If you are simply copying the traditional so-called Moslem calendar then just say so.
I used the Quran as shown above jedi
Say this to yourself. If you are using the false so-called Moslem calendar the seasons will certainly shift. Also, using your false 360 days calendar, after a few years the seasons will also shift.
Finally, now you agree that after 12 month period = 4 seasons. thus one month can not equal 10 days as you said.
So do you now agree to the indisputable fact that when the woman counts the menstruation she is counting the number of EVENTS and not how long it lasts?
That is what I said before, and that is what logic says, but you like to argue 9as all humans do, including me).
So what is this "month"? Is it your imaginary 30 day month or some other "month"?
Or is counting the "shahr" the same like counting menstruations and waiting for the delivery of the baby. In other words, it is based on EVENTS and not some haphazard 30 day imaginary month.
Go back and read the verse (65-4) that you answered for, and you will know what I meant.
So when does Shaban start?
When we finish debating Ramadan, you can start another thread for Shaban.
-
Peace,
I have an issue which is related to this debate.
Regarding this verse, based on my limited understanding of Arabic, Ramadhan seems to be used as a noun.
I think this because within the verse, it says which I translate to so whoever witnesses from yourselves the month. If Ramadhan was not a noun it would have had to say something like .
I am a beginner in Arabic so would someone who is more experienced in Arabic please clarify for me please.
-
Peace,
I have an issue which is related to this debate.
Regarding this verse, based on my limited understanding of Arabic, Ramadhan seems to be used as a noun.
I think this because within the verse, it says which I translate to so whoever witnesses from yourselves the month. If Ramadhan was not a noun it would have had to say something like .
I am a beginner in Arabic so would someone who is more experienced in Arabic please clarify for me please.
Peace
Ramadan is the Name of the Month, which means it is a Noun.Peace
-
Peace
Ramadan is the Name of the Month, which means it is a Noun.Peace
Peace to all.
This is conjecture. How do you know that "ramadhan" was the "Name of the Month" back when al-Qur'an was revealed? You base your number of days (in a "month" on the so-called Islamic calendar. However, how do you know this calendar is correct? Who devised this calendar, God or men?
The period is referred to as "shahru ramadhan". In this verse/description, "ramadhan" is not used as a noun, it's used as an adjective, describing the time frame ("scorching/extreme heat". "Shahru" is used in the noun form. So, even if "shahru" was referring to a "month", it would translate to the "month of extreme heat" - it's not naming the period, it's describing it. So, how do you know when this extremely hot month is?
In the story of Youssef, it uses the description "few", not "counted" - this is emphasized by "thamen bakth". This "cheap price" was the description of the "few dirhams" - the "few" (not 'counted' coins made the price "cheap". You can still count many dirhams, but this would not add up to a "cheap price" unless the number was "few".
Peace.
-
Peace to all.
This is conjecture. How do you know that "ramadhan" was the "Name of the Month" back when al-Qur'an was revealed?
God said that
You base your number of days (in a "month" on the so-called Islamic calendar. However, how do you know this calendar is correct? Who devised this calendar, God or men?
I based my number on the following logic and Quran
Now how long is one month?
(٦
The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve
so ordained by Him in the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred; that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves. (9-36)Thus, one year is 12 months. And as we know, one year is the time when 4 seasons are completed (Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter), 365 days. Thus, one month is about 30 days. And if one month is ten days, then the year would be 12 month X 10 = 120 days (two seasons only).
Moreover, the following would show the length of one month
(٥
We have enjoined on man Kindness to his parents in pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth. The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is thirty months
. At length, when he reaches the age of full strength and attains forty years, he says "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favor, which Thou hast bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness such as Thou mayest approve; and be gracious to me in my issue. Truly have I turned to Thee and truly do I bow (to Thee) in Islam." (46-15)Is that how long does it take and not 30 month X 10 days= 300 days
(٤
Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months
, and for those who have no courses (it is the same) for those who carry (life within their wombs) their period is until they deliver their burdens and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. (65-4)As we all know, the woman gets her period every month (average every thirty days)
Thus, we have to Fast for one Month that equals 30 days average.
(٩
They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say they are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for men, and for pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back; it is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors and fear Allah that ye may prosper. (2-189)
Thus? the mark of Ramadan month is the beginning of new moon.
The period is referred to as "shahru ramadhan". In this verse/description, "ramadhan" is not used as a noun, it's used as an adjective, describing the time frame ("scorching/extreme heat". "Shahru" is used in the noun form. So, even if "shahru" was referring to a "month", it would translate to the "month of extreme heat" - it's not naming the period, it's describing it. So, how do you know when this extremely hot month is?
So, based on your logic, the Quran was revealed in the month of extreme heat.
Is it June or July or August or September, as you know all these months are Hot in the region where the Quran was revealed.
Thus, your argument is wrong. Ramadan is a Name that is refreing to the time when Quran was revealed to prophet Mohamed and when Moslems should Fast.
In the story of Youssef, it uses the description "few", not "counted" - this is emphasized by "thamen bakth". This "cheap price" was the description of the "few dirhams" - the "few" (not 'counted' coins made the price "cheap". You can still count many dirhams, but this would not add up to a "cheap price" unless the number was "few".
Peace.
Cheap price is what these people paid for Yousuf; Do you think 30 Derahm is Cheap as a Price For Yousuf?
No I take it that 30 Deraham is too much for Him, according to your Logic.
Again, Draham M3dodatt means "Counted Draham" and Never "Few Draham", according to its Root Word.Peace
-
Peace All
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/moon_phases.php
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/idltemp/current_moon.php
In the above link, you can witness the Moon size (every day) and the way Moslem calculate one Period (one Month), as they were instructed by Quran.
Peace -
-
Peace Belal,
Again, we can not translate the arabic words as you and all of us wish; In Yousuf story, God said "Thamen Bakth" which means Cheap Price, before saying a "Drahim M3dodat" which means a COUNTED Drahem. Do you think a human being Like Yousuf is Worth such a price in God's Opinion or not (Cheap)?
Please...please, M3dodat means "can be Counted" and NOT FEW, according to ITS ROOT WORDA Million Dirham can be counted. What is the point of saying "Drahim M3dodat"? By disregarding the meaning for ?Ma3doodat? as "few" as confirmed by the context in the great reading and dictionaries you are making the term ?Darahim Ma3doodat? pointless.
What is the Root Word For M3dodat?
The root is not a good indicator by itself. You cannot blindly take the root as the meaning that equally applies to all the forms. Take for example, ?infaq? (spending) and ?nifaq? (hypocrisy) two totally different meanings from the same root NFQ (spend). Meanings are not developed in a vacuum and the Arabic language is not some divine language that suddenly descended from the sky. One must intelligently use the context to help determine the meaning.
In Islamic Calender, The number of days in each month depends on the Moon Cycle--From born "Crescent) untill becomes Crescent again after 29 or 30 (and my believe is that it could be 31 as well).
They ask thee concerning the Crescent. Say they are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for men....... (2-189)
And that is how we count the days of the period.The lunar cycle cannot be 31 days, unless perhaps you live on a different planet. D
If you are promoting the so-called Islamic calendar then you are contradicting what you said on August 29th. Here it is again because it seems that you forgot your own words
God told us that the year has 12 months, which all of us can tastify that is true. for example, if I see a tree that its leafs are falling, I can see the same event again after 12 month.
It is an indisputable fact that in the so-called Islamic Calendar you will not see the same event of the leaves falling after 12 months and in a few years you will not be even close and you will be seeing summer instead of fall. So the entire basis of your reasoning is essentially contradictory.
I answered above.
Our main point is should we fast for a whole month or not, and what is the count of one month, is it 10 days or no less than Moon Cycle (28 0r 29 or 30 days).You have made a long post as if you are presenting some new understanding but in reality you are doing nothing but repeating the old nonsensical and completely useless so-called Islamic Calendar. All that you really did is prove that your logic is even less well thought out than even Sunnis as you demonstrated by your leaf falling contradiction.
To witness the Moon Crescent (2-189), per what GOD SAID.
We have explained in detail in this Qur'an, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude but man is, in most things contentious. (18-54)
We like to argue, do we? ;D
How to fast per day, and for how many days is shown in the Quran in chapter two.This is what you are conjuring up and it is certainly not what the god said. The word ?witness? or ?shahr? doesn?t even appear in 2189. Also, which crescent? There are two crescents, the waxing and the waning and the period between the end of one and the beginning of the other is only 20 days. If the crescent is used as you conjecture then the time between two consecutive crescents is about 20 days not 30, 29 or 31 ;D.
If the crescent is to be witnessed then why didn?t the god say ?whoever witnesses the crescent? in 2185? Instead, he clearly said whoever witnesses the ?shahr?. ?Shahr? means full-moon according to its etymology and Classical Arabic dictionaries.
I used the Quran as shown above jedi
This is the same exact thing Sunnis say about their so-called Islamic calendar. They also say ?it is based in the Quran? but then they fail to address the contradictions. They try to force their preconceived "Islamic Calendar" to fit the great reading exactly like you are doing.
Finally, now you agree that after 12 month period = 4 seasons. thus one month can not equal 10 days as you said.
You are the only one on this forum who is saying that one month is equal to 10 days. I didn?t say that. The only thing that you are proving by repeating this is that you like the logical fallacy of a strawman.
That is what I said before, and that is what logic says, but you like to argue 9as all humans do, including me).
Go back and read the verse (65-4) that you answered for, and you will know what I meant.So if you now understand that we are counting events then the time between two consecutive crescents is about 20 days and this is an indisputable fact. I hope that now you can see why Sunnis had to falsify 2189 to say ?New Moons? and not ?crescents?.
When we finish debating Ramadan, you can start another thread for Shaban.
But your completely arbitrary Ramadan is 100% dependent on when Shaaban occurred and this has nothing to do with anything in the great reading. So stop pretending that you are basing your Ramadan on the ?Quran?. You don?t even know the basics such as what the word ?ramadan? means, let alone anything about the timing. I would suggest that you start by learning the meaning of the words first before drawing a conclusion.
You can see the meanings in Classical Arabic dictionaries such as Lisan Al-3arab as I quoted earlier on this thread or summarized here
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Belal,
A Million Dirham can be counted. What is the point of saying "Drahim M3dodat"? By disregarding the meaning for ?Ma3doodat? as "few" as confirmed by the context in the great reading and dictionaries you are making the term ?Darahim Ma3doodat? pointless.
Ayman, what happened? Why cann't you see where God said "Cheap Price" before "Counted Draham".
Do you think Counted Draham can be 30 Derham, and still a Cheap price for Yousuf? Please give me a Straight Answer.The root is not a good indicator by itself.
You cannot blindly take the root as the meaning that equally applies to all the forms.Now, I can tell that you do not like to be Wrong, and you will twist every thing logic to fit and support your opinion--HUMAN EGO.
One must intelligently use the context to help determine the meaning.
Agree, where M3dodatt can mean Few, when "Bakss" gave the mening of Cheap.
Where can you indecate that M3dodatt would equal 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 or even 1000 Deraham, when such number is still Cheap for Yousuf.
The lunar cycle cannot be 31 days, unless perhaps you live on a different planet.
Agree.
If you are promoting the so-called Islamic calendar then you are contradicting what you said on August 29th. Here it is again because it seems that you forgot your own words
It is an indisputable fact that in the so-called Islamic Calendar you will not see the same event of the leaves falling after 12 months and in a few years you will not be even close and you will be seeing summer instead of fall. So the entire basis of your reasoning is essentially contradictory.
The wisdom behind why Ramadan will shift in season every 10 years is in this thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596845.0
but you are runing from answreing to such wisdom which proves God Justics between his creatuers.
The Islamic Calander is full of times for many worshiping duties, such as Hajj, Ramadan. Now Why do you think the Season will matter for such duties.
Why do you think All Moslems Should Fast in June, when June is Hot in the USA and Arab Contries and Cold in South Africa, and Spring in another part of the Word. So your point is meaningless in South Africa.
Why are you so Fixed on that June is a Month of Heat All over the Earth.http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596845.0
This is what you are conjuring up and it is certainly not what the god said. The word ?witness? or ?shahr? doesn?t even appear in 2189. Also, which crescent? There are two crescents, the waxing and the waning and the period between the end of one and the beginning of the other is only 20 days. If the crescent is used as you conjecture then the time between two consecutive crescents is about 20 days not 30, 29 or 31 ;D.
From the Waxing to the next Waxing is 1 Month; from the Waning to the Waning is one Month, and From Full to Full is One Month.
If the crescent is to be witnessed then why didn?t the god say ?whoever witnesses the crescent? in 2185? Instead, he clearly said whoever witnesses the ?shahr?. ?Shahr? means full-moon according to its etymology and Classical Arabic dictionaries.
Ayman, You are Associating a wrong information to God's Religion.
Where in the Quran Can the word Shar be translated as Full Moon.Shar is a Month period which is measuered by the Moon Cycle
It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a light (of beauty), and measured out stages for it that ye might know the number of years and the count (of time). No wise did Allah create this but in truth and righteousness. (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail, for those who understand. (10-5)
So if you now understand that we are counting events then the time between two consecutive crescents is about 20 days and this is an indisputable fact. I hope that now you can see why Sunnis had to falsify 2189 to say ?New Moons? and not ?crescents?.
Again, From Waxing Crescent to Waxing is one Month. Does that equal 20 days confused
Happy Ramadan to every Fasting Moslem
-
Peace Belal,
Ayman, what happened? Why cann't you see where God said "Cheap Price" before "Counted Draham".
Do you think Counted Draham can be 30 Derham, and still a Cheap price for Yousuf? Please give me a Straight Answer.Prove that "counted" means 30 and not 100, a Million or any number.
Now, I can tell that you do not like to be Wrong, and you will twist every thing logic to fit and support your opinion--HUMAN EGO.
You are simply evading to address the fact that "infaq" and "nifaq" coming from the same root and yet having completely different meanings. It is not my opinion This is an indisputable fact. You are really in no position to give any opinion about anything relating to the Arabic language if you are ignorant of this most basic of facts.
Agree, where M3dodatt can mean Few, when "Bakss" gave the mening of Cheap.
Where can you indecate that M3dodatt would equal 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 or even 1000 Deraham, when such number is still Cheap for Yousuf.
The idea of "cheap" is already covered by "bakhs". If it is any number as you falsely claim then the term "ma3doodat" is redundant. It is not my problem that you can't understand this simple logic.
Agree.
If you agree then stop making such ridiculous statements and focus on the issue.
The wisdom behind why Ramadan will shift in season every 10 years is in this thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596845.0
but you are runing from answreing to such wisdom which proves God Justics between his creatuers.
The Islamic Calander is full of times for many worshiping duties, such as Hajj, Ramadan. Now Why do you think the Season will matter for such duties.
Why do you think All Moslems Should Fast in June, when June is Hot in the USA and Arab Contries and Cold in South Africa, and Spring in another part of the Word. So your point is meaningless in South Africa.
Why are you so Fixed on that June is a Month of Heat All over the Earth.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596845.0Why can't you make up your mind? What happened to your statement about the falling leaf to falling leaf? You are clearly confused.
Also, everything on earth follows the solar cycle. All the animals follow the solar cycle. Since 936 and the four restricted "shahr" (full-moons) are about the hunting restrictions then certainly the timing for them has to be in line with the seasons.
The so-called Islamic calendar on the other hand is completely about false manmade religious duties that are irrelevant to the natural order of things.
From the Waxing to the next Waxing is 1 Month; from the Waning to the Waning is one Month, and From Full to Full is One Month.
But 2189 doesn't say "waxing" or "waning". It simply says "crescent". The time between two consecutive crescents is either 20 days or 1 day. It is NEVER 30 or 29 days. You admitted that "ahilat" means "crescents" and not "new moons". Are you now flip-flopping on this like you did with the "falling leaf to falling leaf" analogy. Again, this only demonstrates that you are hopelessly confused.
Ayman, You are Associating a wrong information to God's Religion.
Where in the Quran Can the word Shar be translated as Full Moon.Where does it say in the Quran that "shahr" can be translated as month?
The meaning of full moon fits in all the occurences of the word "shahr" and it perfectly corrects the issue of the timing.
Shar is a Month period which is measuered by the Moon Cycle
What moon cycle? The time between two consecutive crescents is 20 days or 1 day. Only the time between full moons is going to work. Also, only the full-moon can be easily witnessed by everyone. I guarantee that despite all the noise that you are making, you have never witnessed the new moon.
It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a light (of beauty), and measured out stages for it that ye might know the number of years and the count (of time). No wise did Allah create this but in truth and righteousness. (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail, for those who understand. (10-5)
Why are you ignoring the sun?
Again, From Waxing Crescent to Waxing is one Month. Does that equal 20 days confused
You are confused because you are ignoring 2189 which clearly says "crescent" and not waxing crescent.
Happy Ramadan to every Fasting Moslem
If you knew the meaning of the word "ramadan" and were able to translate it then you would have realized that what you are saying is pure nonsense.
How do you expect to convince anyone if you don't even know the meaning of the very word "ramadan"?
I already gave you the link to the article and you can see it on the first page of this thread
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm
If you see anything wrong with the article then point it out. Meanwhile, I am not going to waste anymore of my time on your uninformed arguments when you don't even want to learn the basics such as the meaning of "ramadan", the central word in 2185.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Belal,
Prove that "counted" means 30 and not 100, a Million or any number.
confused
It does not mean a spacific count unless given. Thus M3doodat does not mean Few or Too Much, but means Counted.
You are simply evading to address the fact that "infaq" and "nifaq" coming from the same root and yet having completely different meanings. It is not my opinion This is an indisputable fact. You are really in no position to give any opinion about anything relating to the Arabic language if you are ignorant of this most basic of facts.
Examples of how God Used the Word M3doodat, (beside the example of Rammadan and Yousuf)
Nor shall We delay it but for a counted term. (11-104)
(And they say "The fire shall not touch us but for a numbered days";.....(2-80)
Ayman, again, M3doodat means Counted.
The idea of "cheap" is already covered by "bakhs". If it is any number as you falsely claim then the term "ma3doodat" is redundant. It is not my problem that you can't understand this simple logic.
You are going NUTS;
I never said that M3doodat means any number. But you are trying to say that M3doodat is Few and less Than 30. In other words, you are trying to prove lies using twisted words. ;D
Why can't you make up your mind? What happened to your statement about the falling leaf to falling leaf? You are clearly confused.
Another use of the Word M3dodat is
(٦
The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve
so ordained by Him in the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred; that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves. (9-36)Thus, the Number of Months is 12;
Now, 12 X 20 days= 240 day, Still less than one year.Ayman, we have to Fast for the period of one Month, and the year has 12 Month; and each month starts and ends during one Moon Cycle (28, 29, 30 days).
Now you want to Fast do, if not, please Keep it to yourself.
Also, everything on earth follows the solar cycle. All the animals follow the solar cycle. Since 936 and the four restricted "shahr" (full-moons) are about the hunting restrictions then certainly the timing for them has to be in line with the seasons.
Ayman, the time of the 4 seasons in Mecca are different from Russa or South Africa.
If Ramadan in June every year because of Heat, then all Moslems all over the word will have to be in area that is Hot. In other words, people in South Africa Can not Fast.But 2189 doesn't say "waxing" or "waning".
Ayman, Waxing is when the Moon appears after disappearing.
Waning is when the Moon is DisappearingThus, How can you confuse yourself, when calculating one Moon Cycle (Month). Should it be a Complete Cycle or half Cycle.
I have to go, the time for Breakfasting is comming soon.
-
Peace Belal, everyone,
All your questions were answered here
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm
If there is an error with the article then point it out. Meanwhile, I am not going to waste my time on your mindless arguments where you are merely trying to justify your sectarian preconceptions about "ramadan" while you are clueless about even simple things such as what the word means.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace,
I'm sorry but I have to jump in for the sake of fairness. Ma'dood primarily means 'counted' and CAN also be used to mean a few. It's like telling someone their days are numbered. That obviously implies that they don't have many more days to live and they might as well count them. It is an expression. So whereas numbered here means few that is not the primary meaning of the word. With that said ma'dood carries a similar usage, but its primary meaning is 'counted/numbered', be that many, moderate or few.
Conclusion We have two meanings here to this word. Context and logic will point to which one is most appropriate in this context. Unfortunately this depends on a person's desire to see a context that might go against his or her agenda. For those who know me I agree with the meaning of 'counted/numbered' in this context, and NOT 'few.' 'Counted' has a meaning of 'limited' or 'specific number.' Ma'dood can also mean 'countable.' That means that there is a limited amount of days and not an indefinite amount, which might be interpreted with just the use of 'days.'
So scour at me, hate me or call me ridiculous as well but I think the conclusion of 'few days' for this context is a distortion of logic, context and knowledge about the meanings of this word.
Godbless,
AnwarNow I do believe that Ramadan means hot season, and that peopel should fast for 30 days during their REPSECTIVE summers (wherever they are on the planet).
And I also want to wish a fulfilling Ramadan for all those fasting during what they believe to be Ramadan.