Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace Progressive1993,
Oooohhh.. so now you're twisting the words more and more to fit your your interpretation.. I see...
Anyways, have a nice month of Ramadan (shahr Ramadan).In other words, you have nothing of value to say to address in a specific and logical way the points that I raised so instead you fall back on your typical useless rhetoric.
Happy random arbitrary month to you too. )
Peace,
Ayman
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You talk about twisting...
'minkum' means therein?
Just to recap in case you didnt read carefully
Therefore, those of you who witness (shahida) the month (al shahr) shall fast therein (minkum).
(correct me if there is a mistake in the above verse)
So.. you tell me what it means if not "therein".
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Peace pro(a)gressive,
Quote from progressive1993 on Yesterday at 040409 PM
Therefore, those of you who witness (shahida) the month (al shahr) shall fast therein (minkum).
(correct me if there is a mistake in the above verse)
yes, there is a mistake in your translation/understanding of the verse and please let me correct it to you .
fa (so/therefore) man (whoever) shahida (witnessed) minkum (from amongst you) al-shahra (the moon/month/full moon...whatever), fa (so/therefore) li-yasum (should fast) hu (it).
i hope you understand arabic ...
Here is now a reverse translation of YOUR version of the verse
fa man shahida minkum al-shahra fa li-yasum feehi.
if not, "fa man shahida feehi al-sharha fa li-yasum minkum"i am afraid we are not reading the same Quran ;D
salam
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Just to recap in case you didnt read carefully
So.. you tell me what it means if not "therein".
I did read what you said 'carefully'. I'm just saying that you accuse Ayman of wishful thinking... aren't you doing the same with taking 'therein'. You can't have it both ways. Anyways, let's please move on...
min= from
kum = you in plural formFihi is therein
Peace pro(a)gressive,
Quote from progressive1993 on Yesterday at 040409 PM
Therefore, those of you who witness (shahida) the month (al shahr) shall fast therein (minkum).
(correct me if there is a mistake in the above verse)
yes, there is a mistake in your translation/understanding of the verse and please let me correct it to you .
fa (so/therefore) man (whoever) shahida (witnessed) minkum (from amongst you) al-shahra (the moon/month/full moon...whatever), fa (so/therefore) li-yasum (should fast) hu (it).
i hope you understand arabic ...
Here is now a reverse translation of YOUR version of the verse
fa man shahida minkum al-shahra fa li-yasum feehi.
if not, "fa man shahida feehi al-sharha fa li-yasum minkum"i am afraid we are not reading the same Quran ;D
salam
Well said.
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Peace pro(a)gressive,
Quote from progressive1993 on Yesterday at 040409 PM
Therefore, those of you who witness (shahida) the month (al shahr) shall fast therein (minkum).
(correct me if there is a mistake in the above verse)
yes, there is a mistake in your translation/understanding of the verse and please let me correct it to you .
fa (so/therefore) man (whoever) shahida (witnessed) minkum (from amongst you) al-shahra (the moon/month/full moon...whatever), fa (so/therefore) li-yasum (should fast) hu (it).
i hope you understand arabic ...
Here is now a reverse translation of YOUR version of the verse
fa man shahida minkum al-shahra fa li-yasum feehi.
if not, "fa man shahida feehi al-sharha fa li-yasum minkum"i am afraid we are not reading the same Quran ;D
salam
I see.. Thanks for the clarification. handshake
so 'falyasumhu' is literally "fast it"? Tree translations that I looked at have "fast therein" in them. Another one says "fast throughout it". Oh well..
The translation I was reading was probably not literal enough.
peace
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I did read what you said 'carefully'. I'm just saying that you accuse Ayman of wishful thinking... aren't you doing the same with taking 'therein'. You can't have it both ways. Anyways, let's please move on...
min= from
kum = you in plural formFihi is therein
Well said.
I failed in the translation of a sentence; ayman comes up with the nonsense of the Quran being revealed IN the MOON of Ramadan and then comes up with nonsense to justify his interpretation... I guess they are the same...
Here is the nonsense again
It is the same as when someone tells you I am sitting in the scorching full moon or in a bright sun or in a cloudy afternoon. This is perfectly normal in regular speech. It doesn't mean that they traveled to the sun and are sitting on its surface!
That's why I said that he is twisting stuff around.
Anyways, ayman, just a question
what sounds more logical to you
- The Quran was revelaed IN THE MONTH OF RAMDAN
or - The Quran was revealed IN THE MOON OF SCORCHING HEAT?
Put the whole Ramadan issue aside - which one sounds more logical to you language-wise?
Lets please move on
To what? We're discussing a relevant issue
peace
- The Quran was revelaed IN THE MONTH OF RAMDAN
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Peace Farida,
I am not talking about the Islamic year; I am talking about the month/moon Ramadan which is lunar and started before the Islamic calendar.
You are speaking out of ignorance. Even Sunni scholars readily admit that there was no pre-Islamic month called Ramadan. You have zero evidence of your claims. The term "shahr" is never used in any pre-Islamic inscription to mean "month". The word that was used in inscriptions to mean month is "warkh" or "yarkh". The great reading talks about "the scorching full-moon". There is zero evidence that Ramadan is a meaningless word as you would love it to be.
NO Ramadan is NOT arbitrary; it?s been in cycle from the day it was mentioned to us in the Qur?an
But what is mentioned in the great reading is a meaningful word. What you and other sectarians did is you took a meaningful word and then made it meaningless and named with it an arbitrary random month.
and as you can see from my ?Blue Lagoon? scenario the ?Sunni? guy was able to maintain the cycle even if, in his calendar, it was the 12th month.
The Sunnis is as lost as you. If he loses track of time because he was stuck in the hull of the ship or he loses consciousness he would be completely lost. Like you, he is 100% dependent on the info from other Sunnis. It has nothing to do with the great reading.
I would really appreciate if you would stop repeating yourself.
Then be a decent person and honestly admit to the indisputable fact that your Ramadan is not based on the great reading and is based on following other sectarians, no matter what you call it (e.g., following the prophet, following Sahaba, or any other junk you imagine).
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Progressive1993,
what sounds more logical to you
- The Quran was revelaed IN THE MONTH OF RAMDAN
or - The Quran was revealed IN THE MOON OF SCORCHING HEAT?
Put the whole Ramadan issue aside - which one soundsmore logical to you language-wise?
Please quote where I said that "The Quran was revealed IN THE MOON OF SCORCHING HEAT". If you can't then you are either a liar or have a learning disability that prevents you from reading properly or both.
Peace,
Ayman
- The Quran was revelaed IN THE MONTH OF RAMDAN
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Peace Progressive1993,
Please quote where I said that "The Quran was revealed IN THE MOON OF SCORCHING HEAT". If you can't then you are either a liar or have a learning disability that prevents you from reading properly or both.
Peace,
Ayman
There is no more escaping with your childish comments above.
I said
Quote from progressive1993 on Yesterday at 050409 PM
Also, another question for ayman
How can the Quran have been sent down IN a moon?
Just to recap, it actually says "in".. too bad, eh?
2185 The month of Ramadan, is the month in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion...
2185 Shahru ramadana allatheeonzila feehi alqur-anu hudan lilnnasiwabayyinatin mina alhuda waalfurqanThen you said
It is the same as when someone tells you I am sitting in the scorching full moon or in a bright sun or in a cloudy afternoon. This is perfectly normal in regular speech. It doesn't mean that they traveled to the sun and are sitting on its surface!
There you go..you directly answered my question "how can it be reveled IN the MOON of Ramadan." Stop making excuses and baseless accusations like you always do.
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Peace,
Quote from progressive1993 on August 25, 2009, 060057 PM
105 He is the One who made the sun an illuminator, and the moon a light, and He measured its phases so that you would know the number of the years and the calculation. God has not created this except for truth. He details the signs for a people who know.
Not sure if the verse says the sun has stages, but that could just mean for calculating the day. Tell me, ayman, is the thing about phases for the moon or the sun?Ayman?s response ?Please read the original Arabic. Knowing the number of years and the calculation is the result of BOTH the sun and the moon (the whole underlined clause) and not just the second part. The fact that the sun is used is confirmed by 1712, which you completely ignore as if it didn't exist.?
This is a pathetic response. Ayman has no idea (Zero knowledge) about the phases of moon or the definition of celestial phases. The sad part is he cannot be taught because the God has sealed his heart and mind. Therefore, he will reject the truth and God?s sign. For this, he will be humiliated in this world and far worst waits for him in the hereafter.
The God talks about phases of the moon in the following two verses
2189 - They ask you about the phases of the moon! Say, "They provide a timing device for the people, and determine the time of Hajj." It is not righteous to beat around the bush; righteousness is attained by upholding the commandments and by being straightforward. You shall observe GOD, that you may succeed.
8418 - And the moon and its phases.
The natural question then what is the definition of phases?
From science and through observation we know that the moon orbits around the Earth. An observer on the Earth sees the starting phase of moon (new moon) when the moon is in-between the Earth and the sun. Then we see the half moon, full moon, half moon again and finally back to the starting phase.
The moon has phases because it orbits around the Earth and it is not a source of radiation. These are the conditions that must be satisfied to have phases (definition). Does sun satisfy these conditions, Ayman?
Ayman violates this definition when he says sun has phases. This is absurd. The sun doesn?t go around the Earth. The Earth goes around the sun.
Ayman should first define what phases or stages is? And then show it works for moon phases and the so called sun phases.
Another point to note is that there is no mention of ?sun and its phases? in the Quran. This is Ayman imagination.
The phases in 105 clearly belong to the moon. This is the straightforward and easy understanding of the verse.
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Peace,
Quote from progressive1993 on August 25, 2009, 060057 PM
105 He is the One who made the sun an illuminator, and the moon a light, and He measured its phases so that you would know the number of the years and the calculation. God has not created this except for truth. He details the signs for a people who know.
Not sure if the verse says the sun has stages, but that could just mean for calculating the day. Tell me, ayman, is the thing about phases for the moon or the sun?Ayman?s response ?Please read the original Arabic. Knowing the number of years and the calculation is the result of BOTH the sun and the moon (the whole underlined clause) and not just the second part. The fact that the sun is used is confirmed by 1712, which you completely ignore as if it didn't exist.?
This is a pathetic response. Ayman has no idea (Zero knowledge) about the phases of moon or the definition of celestial phases. The sad part is he cannot be taught because the God has sealed his heart and mind. Therefore, he will reject the truth and God?s sign. For this, he will be humiliated in this world and far worst waits for him in the hereafter.
The God talks about phases of the moon in the following two verses
2189 - They ask you about the phases of the moon! Say, "They provide a timing device for the people, and determine the time of Hajj." It is not righteous to beat around the bush; righteousness is attained by upholding the commandments and by being straightforward. You shall observe GOD, that you may succeed.
8418 - And the moon and its phases.
The natural question then what is the definition of phases?
From science and through observation we know that the moon orbits around the Earth. An observer on the Earth sees the starting phase of moon (new moon) when the moon is in-between the Earth and the sun. Then we see the half moon, full moon, half moon again and finally back to the starting phase.
The moon has phases because it orbits around the Earth and it is not a source of radiation. These are the conditions that must be satisfied to have phases (definition). Does sun satisfy these conditions, Ayman?
Ayman violates this definition when he says sun has phases. This is absurd. The sun doesn?t go around the Earth. The Earth goes around the sun.
Ayman should first define what phases or stages is? And then show it works for moon phases and the so called sun phases.
Another point to note is that there is no mention of ?sun and its phases? in the Quran. This is Ayman imagination.
The phases in 105 clearly belong to the moon. This is the straightforward and easy understanding of the verse.
bravo
At least someone understands.
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Welcome back guest,
Ayman never said that the sun has phases. if he did, please quote.
Sorry, but i'll have to say it again the waiter in the restaurant gives you a knife AND a "4 spears Fork" for you can cut AND pick the meat. If you understand from this example that the knife also has 4 spears, it's your problem not Ayman's .
Salam
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Peace Pro(a)gressive,
You need a new joke. Did nobody ever tell you that jokes are not funny anymore once they are overused?
So you also understood that the knife has 4 spears .?? !!!!! sun bravo bravo bravo
Please show me the phases of the sun and how they help us calculate the months.
Your example isnt really similar to what is in the Quran/your example is not relevant.
BTW, since when do knives have 'spears'?Anyways, discussing with you leads to nowhere. I understand your example and it makes perfect sense - however it is not relevant, since the Quran uses moon and sun - read what I wrote above.
@ ayman
do you still think that "the Quran was revealed in the moon of Ramadan" (if that is what you think)?
Also, doesnt 'qamar' = moon? -
Peace Farida,
You are speaking out of ignorance. Even Sunni scholars readily admit that there was no pre-Islamic month called Ramadan. You have zero evidence of your claims. The term "shahr" is never used in any pre-Islamic inscription to mean "month". The word that was used in inscriptions to mean month is "warkh" or "yarkh". The great reading talks about "the scorching full-moon". There is zero evidence that Ramadan is a meaningless word as you would love it to be.
But what is mentioned in the great reading is a meaningful word. What you and other sectarians did is you took a meaningful word and then made it meaningless and named with it an arbitrary random month.
The Sunnis is as lost as you. If he loses track of time because he was stuck in the hull of the ship or he loses consciousness he would be completely lost. Like you, he is 100% dependent on the info from other Sunnis. It has nothing to do with the great reading.
Then be a decent person and honestly admit to the indisputable fact that your Ramadan is not based on the great reading and is based on following other sectarians, no matter what you call it (e.g., following the prophet, following Sahaba, or any other junk you imagine).
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman
How arrogant you consider everyone ignorant except yourself and your cronies who seem to pop up out of nowhere to defend you every Ramadan and   strangely they sound so much like you though they claim not to be speaking English well.
Now, coming to your post, please give evidence for your source. Enough of speculations from you. I see that you have completely ignored my earlier post of today Reply #1213 on Today at 042925 PM ?. Why? Is it too difficult for you to understand or you are just in the habit of repeating yourself playing on the psychology that oft repeated lies become the truth.I see how much you hope to break the chain that somehow the followers of the messenger should lose track of time or their consciousness so that you could take over and enforce your false claim, but sadly for you this will NEVER happen. nope
17 81. And say "The truth has come and falsehood has perished. Falsehood is always bound to perish!"
peace -
You need a new joke. Did nobody ever tell you that jokes are not funny anymore once they are overused?
Please show me the phases of the sun and how they help us calculate the months.
Your example isnt really similar to what is in the Quran/your example is not relevant.
BTW, since when do knives have 'spears'?*Anyways, discussing with you leads to nowhere. I understand your example and it makes perfect sense - however it is not relevant, since the Quran uses moon and sun - read what I wrote above.
as long as you you keep asking about knives' spears and sun phases, you are right discussing with you leads to nowhere.
P.S i don't know any one of you personally. Neither you nor Br. Ayman, let alone Sister Farida. But i know exactly the sectarian traditions because my country (morocco) is known to be following the maliki sect, (Imam Malik is a sunni Celebrity) Although the Moroccan king proclaims himself as descendant of the prophet and claims to belong to the "ahl albayt" (wich is a pure chiiat concept). This stupid contradiction (you cannot be sunni and chiia at the same time) lead me to ask questions. And in order to answer these questions, you need to "free your mind" and overview the situation from outside. Before i started posting in this forum, i read almost every thread and every post, and believe me , i haven't any reason to be with you or with brother Ayman since the only achievement is to have the truth revealed. But since you appear, through your posts, that you haven't been able yet to strip off the Traditional cloths that you wear, and since Br. Ayman's posts don't present any lack of logic and all are quranically based, so... i already choose my side. This doesn't mean that i follow him blindly, nor that i reject you automatically, but...sorry...i cannot afford to listen to any absurdities anymore unless they are proven to be not.
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Anyways, discussing with you leads to nowhere. I understand your example and it makes perfect sense - however it is not relevant, since the Quran uses moon and sun - read what I wrote above.
as long as you you keep asking about knives' spears and sun phases, you are right discussing with you leads to nowhere.
P.S i don't know any one of you personally. Neither you nor Br. Ayman, let alone Sister Farida. But i know exactly the sectarian traditions because my country (morocco) is known to be following the maliki sect, (Imam Malik is a sunni Celebrity) Although the Moroccan king proclaims himself as descendant of the prophet and claims to belong to the "ahl albayt" (wich is a pure chiiat concept). This stupid contradiction (you cannot be sunni and chiia at the same time) lead me to ask questions. And in order to answer these questions, you need to "free your mind" and overview the situation from outside. Before i started posting in this forum, i read almost every thread and every post, and believe me , i haven't any reason to be with you or with brother Ayman since the only achievement is to have the truth revealed. But since you appear, through your posts, that you haven't been able yet to strip off the Traditional cloths that you wear, and since Br. Ayman's posts don't present any lack of logic and all are quranically based, so... i already choose my side. This doesn't mean that i follow him blindly, nor that i reject you automatically, but...sorry...i cannot afford to listen to any absurdities anymore unless they are proven to be not.
I understand..but sometimes 'going blindly against tradition' isnt the best thing. I take info from the Quran and I have no problem to follow it, even if it coincides with what the Sunnis believe/are doing.
@ ayman
I am looking forward to your response(s)
I'm out for today.
Peace -
Peace progressive ))
I see.. Thanks for the clarification. handshake
so 'falyasumhu' is literally "fast it"? Tree translations that I looked at have "fast therein" in them. Another one says "fast throughout it". Oh well..
The translation I was reading was probably not literal enough.
peace
yes , "fa-li-yasum-hu" means literally "so-should-fast-it" .
The three translations you looked at are exactly a pure example of sectarians and traditionalist trying to distort and twist the quranic meaning...It is because the translators knew that the sectarians were fasting the hole "month" of ramadan, that's why they were biased in their translation..(maybe they did it with very good intentions, maybe not..) but their point was to "fit with the practice".I think you, non-arabic speakers, should not lean on post-quranic translaters, and start to look for the real meaning of the arabic "key" words, their root and their multiple use and then choose the one that "fits the god's statement, rather than "fit" with the general practice.
salam all