Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Salaam Hope
I saw the red moon last night and thought what an unusual red and big moon. I did not think much of it till I read this thread. So if what I have read is correct, we are suppose to fast for 3 to 5 days from seeing the moon? Can someone explain the significants in small bullet points as a summary? There is so much I need to learn its a little mind blowing. Thanks in advance.
The period of abstention is related to the Arabic word -shahr-.
Verse 2185 states that the duration of a full moon is relevant for the length of the period of abstention.- ... those of you who witness this full moon shall fast therein ... -
The plural-form of the word days relating to the abstention mentioned in verse 2184 requires a number of more than two.
The duration of the full-moon illusion with at least 98% coverage is three days.This seems to be a compelling quranic ruling with a clear unambiguous time-frame.
An abstention out of the time-frame of the duration of the full moon is not suggested in the relevant verses.
There seems not to be another verse that could put this aside in a compelling way.Other related verses and comments can be read at
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600410.0Salaam and ramadan kareem
truthseeker171 -
Salaam Mohamad
the quran says that ramadan has bayinat so it is more then one sign.so it is not just the moon phase or full moon or no moon.we neeed more proof for ramadan. as for those signs and what they are we need to find from the quran.
Verse 2185 - The month of Ramadan in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for mankind, and clear proofs of the guidance, and the Criterion (of right and wrong). And whosoever of you is present, let him fast the month .... -
Pickthall - between brackets is added.The word -bayinat- relates to the Koran not to the word -ramadan-.
The Koran states that one should abstain the -shahr ramadan- when it is witnessed.
A full moon can be witnessed and abstained - other readings would be rather illogical.
We can not witness a whole month and go back into time and abstain the month.
The period between the two -hilal- when the moon is absent does not seem to be relevant either. We can not witness the absence of the moon in an unambiguous way that we would be able to know the period of fasting - most of the day the moon is absent.
Furthermore verse 2189 informs the believers that the -hilal- is a timing-device for the people and the hadj.
The -hilal- has a general function as a timing-device for personal affairs and the -hilal- is a timing-device for the hadj - one of the two communal Islamic events.
The Quran is complete and fully detailed.
Compelling seems to be the absence in this verse of the other communal Islamic event the communal abstention, so we can conclude that the -hilal- is not relevant for the duration of the period of abstention.Salaam
truthseeker171 -
yes i see brother,wow ,you are clear.
it might mean that al shahr is the full moon.
but does that mean that we should fast on every full moon 12 times a year for two or three days.
the quran states only two.
for when you first see it then comes day one and then day two.
it clearly says that you can be with your woman in day one and eat and drink on day two.
so we can stilll use the end of the moon phase for haj as for ramadan it is the full moon.right
i see truth seeker ramadan was not mentioned in the moon phase change only haj and timing ,you are right ,
thank you you made something very diffuclt for me easy
i dont know what to say .
you are a brother.
but now we need to know is there one month a year or more.
you get what i mean.
thank you appreciate your reply.
salam
as for haj the no moon phase apply and how the four month are different from the others ,stilll needs to be tested.
thank you ' -
what i find difficult ,is how to know it is full moon.
i sometimes confuse the full moon from the semi-full moon.
yesterday was a full moon . i think it is easy if we use numbers as when the moon was born.
so we might fast for twelve of those days of full moon are they three or two i dont know.
the aya is clear.
so they might be three.
thank you seeker.
salam. -
so we have the shahr that is the full moon.
so we have like twelve consecutive times to fast a year. twelve of those
addind up to two or three days each. right.
as for the no moon phases they are for haj and that we know the times.
that is cool .and the moon pheses are for us to know the times.
ok i see.
i still think that there are times in between the moon phases that are different in length sothatwe know when is haj.
but see there is some contradiction here .there are ashhur hurum the ones for haj .and when ahilat was mentioned we see clearly that the quran states so we know when are those times for haj , clearly stating the no moon phases.the ending of the moon phase and the beggining of the other"ahhilat"
pls consider. they are called ashhur ,so the ashhur hurum are not full moons.because the quran clearly states that the ahillat are the times of haj.
as for the full moon i think the quran states it to be the al arjoon . the lantern.
pls consider ,i know you have spent a long time on this but i want to be clear . thank you and thank you seeker .
so shahr ramadan is not a full moon but a no moon phase.
i think it is mostly three nights in length,as stated. but we neeed to know when are ashhur hurum.we need proof from the quran ,we needd to keep on looking .
maybe when we know the missing peace it will be clearer.
they are simply unique months with similarities.
ashhur hurum meaning unique.
kissas. meaning similar or equal. -
and there is in the quran al haj al akbar. what does that mean. i dont know
i am only speculating ,could it be one of longer length like three insted of two or four insted of three.
just putting more to look at .
thank you . -
truth seeker.
i have something that i want to share with you ,tell me what you think.
the aya is clear it says that who ever sees the full moon the shahr then he must fast.
and in here we despute whta is a shahr is say it is the no moon like the new moon as it is known and you say it is the full moon.
i dont know.
the aya says who ever sees it then he must fast.
does this meanthat seeing and fasting go togther.
i want to give you an example
when i say the shahr is the no moon or known as full moon then you should clearly know that it can be seen once .
yes the moon that cannot be seen at night when it is new can sometimes be see during the day and this happens once a year what do you think.
so we can some how see that something happens once a year for like two days where the moon can be seen after sunset adn during the day but there is no moon it is a new moon and that happens once a year.
pls let us reflect more on this ,i think we need to giveit more time ,dont jump to conclusions and dont get misguided from thta which is not quran. i see it gives others the exact opposite as some claim that the prophet saws used to fast on a full moon. pls we have to discover from the quran.
let us see further this issue.
salam -
Salaam Mohamad
the aya says who ever sees it then he must fast.
does this meanthat seeing and fasting go togther.Verse 2185 states that when one witnesses the -shahr ramadan- one has to abstain it.
Witnessing can mean literally seeing, but allegorically it can mean being present.
Millions of people did not see the -shahr ramadan- because it was clouded in their region.
So following moon-calendars could be the best way - the believers can witness the -shahr ramadan- in the most unambiguous way.when i say the shahr is the no moon or known as full moon then you should clearly know that it can be seen once .
yes the moon that cannot be seen at night when it is new can sometimes be see during the day and this happens once a year what do you think.
so we can some how see that something happens once a year for like two days where the moon can be seen after sunset adn during the day but there is no moon it is a new moon and that happens once a year.We can not prove your assumption that once a year the new moon is seen during the day and not during the night. This is highly unlikely.
The -shahr ramadan- is one of the 12 or 13 full moons of the year - it is related to the scorching heat - that is the meaning of the word ramadan.
In Arabia that is the moment of the summersolstice - june 21.
The first full moon after the summersolstice indicates the period of abstention - this once a year and unambiguous.Salaam
truthseeker171 -
in shaa allah i will put aya numbers soon. as for now ,
if one is to take full moons as signs then it is difficult because one cannot know when it is exactly full ,even to the professional eye.
i think it is not to do with the full moon .
besides the name of the full moon in the quran is al qamar.
the aya states wa qadarnahu manzilla hatta ada kal irjun al kadeem.
al qamar is the whole moon i think.
but it was not ever given to be a sign for fasting .it was never said who witness the al qamar then fast. it was said who witness al shahr.
i have more proof from quran,,but i will stay silent for now. i dont know why but i dont feel i can come out with this at the moment. i would like to be more quranic about it.
salam. -
Salaam Mohamad
if one is to take full moons as signs then it is difficult because one cannot know when it is exactly full ,even to the professional eye.
You are right in stating that the full moon has not a 100 percent clear beginning and ending - the same we can say for the -hilal-, regarding the international debates about the beginning and ending of the traditional fast of the sunni, shia and others.
And as said before verse 2189 states that the -hilal- is only relevant for the hajj and personal timing for the people, the other communal event; the period of fasting is not mentioned. From this we can deduce that another timing-device is relevant for the -shahr ramadan-.A moon-calender can show us the moment of the scientific full moon - exactly to the minute, but the full moon with at least 98% coverage lasts three days, no shorter not longer.
What can be discussed is when the three days of fasting start.
Is it one day before the scientific full moon when there is 98% coverage - so day 3 will also have about 98 % coverage?
Or is it the start after the scientific full moon with about 99.+x % coverage and do we accept that the moon is at day 3 of the fast only 96 % visible?Verse 2184 states that the fast should be more than two days - regarding the plural-form days -ayyaamaan-.
So the full moon can be a perfect marker of the beginning and ending of the three days of fasting.
Only there is to be decided if the scientifical or the visual full moon is to be followed - 98 % coverage is a visual full moon.Salaam
truthseeker171 -
i was trying to take this further the timing or ramadan and ashhur hurum.
and i think there is this time in the year where the new moon the full moon that cannot be seen for it is on the side of the sun,only once a year for about one hour in the horizon it can be seen. some call it twilight.
the strange thing about it is that it is a shahr as i stated before and it is seen,now what is really strange is that a shahr cannot be seen ,becuase mostly at night when we got the shahr it is on the side of the sun so cannot be seen ,it is in between the cresents.
now i got to go back to the quran,it says
man shahida minkum el shahr fal yasoumh.
meaning who ever witness the new moon shall fast.
but how can we witness tthe new moon ,it cannnot be seen.
only on that night where it is in the horizon ,its shaded part can be seen. the sun shows it even after it sets .
the quran states
alam tara eella rabika kayfa mada al zthilla wa laaw shaaa la jaalahou sakinaan thouma jaalana al shamsa alayhi dallilla.2544
thuma kabadnahu elayna kabdan yaseera2545
the strange is yet to come.
after ramadan there comes four shouhour where we cannot see the hillal in the first middle part of the night. it cannot be witnessed the moon is never seen on those four months.
strange yes.
the moon can only be seeen even if it was a hillal in the later part of the night when people are mostly sleeping.
unlike the other eight month.
what you think.
this is only possible if al shahr means new moon. the unseen moon.
and about the seasons on our planet well yes they do mean a lot to our calendar. but seasons are always changing there location on the star map.
they change every 19 years to come back where they have started. so the true year is the lunar year adn our seasons my friend seem to be changing location.
if we look at the big picture what is bigger our solar system or the universe.
and it seems that one rotation around the universe map is one year adn the seasons are changing with time, theire timing.
so that when it was the time of ramadan that was the exact time the quran came down. and exact location. but if we take the solar timing it keeps on changing in regard to the universal map.so one time it is in scorpio and the other it is in some other insstalation and that is pointless.
so the time is actually a location is space. ramadan shows us the time and location of where the quran came down from .there might be a (mi3raj )there. or there might be a bab or abwab.so it is either a black hole or some worm whole of some sort. and allah is most knowledgable. or it points directly to something. alah knows best.but that is how the quran came down to us from there.there is ramadan.
please tell me what you think.
salam from mohamad. -
Salaam Mohamad
God did not bring any hardship in the religion - verse 2278.
You have an astronomical approach, which is rather hard to grasp.
We have to bear in mind that the Koran is a global message which is in principle clear and easy to understand - verse 6114, 1689.but how can we witness tthe new moon ,it cannnot be seen.
only on that night where it is in the horizon ,its shaded part can be seen. the sun shows it even after it sets .after ramadan there comes four shouhour where we cannot see the hillal in the first middle part of the night. it cannot be witnessed the moon is never seen on those four months.
the moon can only be seeen even if it was a hillal in the later part of the night when people are mostly sleeping.
unlike the other eight month.this is only possible if al shahr means new moon. the unseen moon.
The natural phenomena that you describe seem to be of a rather regional character and it would be a very weak sign especially in more humid and clouded areas.
Furthermore it would last only a relative short moment, as you wrote, it lasts about an hour.
The Koran is clear about the duration of the abstinence.
The plural-form of the word days relating to the abstention mentioned in verse 2184 requires a number of more than two days.
The believers who witness the -shahr ramadan- should fast it, that means the whole period of the -shahr ramadan- not longer or shorter.
The full moon lasts three days - with at least 98% coverage, a visual full moon. That is compatible with verse 2184.The -shahr- as the full moon can be witnessed globally at the same day.
Scientifically full moon starts at the same moment over the whole world.
The Arabic word -shahr- means obvious, round and clear, your description of the -shahr- is the opposite of the literal meaning of the word -shahr-.The -hilal- is the sign of the start of the new moon and the ending of it.
Verse 2189 is very relevant.
This verse informs the believers that the -hilal- is a timing-device for the people and the hadj.
The -hilal- has a general function as a timing-device for personal affairs and the -hilal- is a timing-device for the hadj - one of the two communal Islamic events.
The Quran is complete and fully detailed.
Interesting is the absence here of mentioning the other communal Islamic event the communal abstention, so we can conclude that the -hilal- is not relevant for the duration of the period of abstention.Verse 2545 is related to the shadow and the sun - there is not a direct connection to the phases of the moon.
Verse 2546 states allegorically that the sun is drawn back, verse 2547 tells why this happens to create the night, the night is described in the first half of verse 2547.and about the seasons on our planet well yes they do mean a lot to our calendar. but seasons are always changing there location on the star map.
they change every 19 years to come back where they have started. so the true year is the lunar year adn our seasons my friend seem to be changing location.If you read verses 105, 1712 and 1247-49 together then one can see that the Koran indicates that the solar year is valid.
The Koran has in many perspectives a very down to earth approach, so the period of abstinence is rather described from the human perspective - according to the Koran it is clear and easy to understand - for instance verse 121, 151.Salaam
truthseeker171 -
Salaam Ramon
Hereby some remarks related to your questions if I may.
A red moon is not everywhere at the same day in the whole hemisphere.
In the Northern countries there is even during mid-summer seldom a real red moon.
So it seems to be better to follow the place where the Koran was sent down as an objective criterium for the timing of the fasting.
The hottest period of the year in Arabia is related to the summersolstice - this might go together in that region with a red moon.
So the first full moon after the summersolstice on the Northern Hemisphere seems to be relevant, it can be known all over the word by moon-calendars.
In an allegorical way all the believers all over the world witness this -shahr ramadan-.
This is an objective issue not depending on a personal experience. Mind the millions of believers who would miss the red moon because of a clouded day.
So also the believers who do not see the red moon in person should fast the -shahr ramadan-.God did not bring any hardship in the religion - verse 2278.
Verse 2184 states that the believers who are able to fast but do not fast should provide for the food of a poor person - this seems to imply that only the believers who are old enough to have a regular income and to engage into legal transactions - which is giving away money or food- should join the fast.
So your children are not obliged to fast, it seems.Salaam and ramadan kareem.
truthseeker171Salam truthseeker171 and all
Thank you for your response.
I have started fasting the day after June 26 after witnessing the full moon already above the horizon. Guess I have to wait for 2011 to see the reddish hue, God willing.
Your observation on "witnessing" is worth researching into because as of the moment my understanding is one has to see the full moon to be obligated to fast. Of course one can fast any time by God's leave. As a matter of fact in 2007 I fasted for 60 days with the intention of quitting smoking. Alhamdulillah I did it.
I thank you also for your observation on who can fast being one who has regular income and to engage in legal transactions. I'd like to caution you on this because other people may not have a regular income and engage in legal transactions but they are able to seek provisions (from God) for themselves, their family and other people (by way of charity). So I believe the best description is that the one who fast is "capable of seeking provisions for himself and others." So this necessarily exclude young children (although again no one should bar them if they wish to fast.)
Peace and thanks!
O0 Ramon
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i am considering what you are saying and i do agree with alot of it ,still having some doubt about some of it though.
i need more proof.like the full moon it happens twleve times a year ,are we supposed to fast twelve times.
what make it in the summer,is it the name ,which i consider a bit weak to put my faith on as ramadan.
still not clear i think we need to look some more in the quran.my presumptions could be very wrong.still need brighter proofs.
like is it the summer solace is it clear in the quran.need to look some more. i need more time.
yousouf and the seven years ,i dont know. i always seem to be looking in the other direction.hope to come up with something i dont know. i need to reflect on the quran.
peace. -
Peace Mohamed,
i am considering what you are saying and i do agree with alot of it ,still having some doubt about some of it though.
i need more proof.like the full moon it happens twleve times a year ,are we supposed to fast twelve times.The full-moon after the summer solstice is the one that marks the fast.
what make it in the summer,is it the name ,which i consider a bit weak to put my faith on as ramadan.
still not clear i think we need to look some more in the quran.my presumptions could be very wrong.still need brighter proofs.
like is it the summer solace is it clear in the quran.need to look some more. i need more time.
yousouf and the seven years ,i dont know. i always seem to be looking in the other direction.hope to come up with something i dont know. i need to reflect on the quran.It is not a meaningless name. It is a clear description given by the god.
This is further confirmed by 1712
17.12. We have made the night and the day as two signs the sign of the night We have obscured, while the sign of the day we have made visible so that you may seek favors from your Lord, and so that you may know the number of years and the calculation, and We have explained all things in detail.
There is only one way to know the number of years using the night and day. The year has to be the time between solstices, either summer solstices or winter solstices. The meaning of "ramadan" clearly points to the summer solstice.
Peace,
Ayman
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i see what you mean,that would all be simple if ramadan is the month of heat.
this is a clear point.
is there any other proof,and what about ashhur hurum.
i think the same methode should be used to conclude both of the matters. they are both times .
like the ramadan and how it is known as a season and how is ashhur hurum known.
peace ayman it is great to hear from you. -
Peace
I did some research about the reading during these last days. I would like your opinions.
The word ?Ramadan? contains the root ?r m d = scorching heat? and the suffix ?a/n? which could mean, now, the beginning of the ?ramad? (scorching heat). In Arabic, the equivalent of the season is ?alfasl?that I understand as the limit between two seasons.
In the verse 2185, we read whoever of you can observe the full moon which marks the beginning of the scorching heat season, then make from this night your first night of fasting.Like the word ?ramadan?, in the word ?alquran? one can see the root ?q r a/ = to read? and the suffix ?a/n? which could mean now.
To read now, in the present ?
In the word ?alsalat? one can see the word ?sila = the link? and the suffix ?A/t? which could mean to move towards the link?I will be back to finish my post God willing
Bon app?tit et bonne f?te!
Peace and best wishes
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ayman i do owe you an apology you have put so much work into this,and i am merely speculating.
after going through the book"the natural republic "
i realized that in order to take any thing from the quran it must be clear ,no speculation and one must have good intentions.
i do realize that i am mistaken for taking the shahr to mean the no moon phase or the new moon as some call it.i was wrong and i admit it.
i could not find any where in the quran that states me to be right.
any ways that is how i am ,i always need time to agree after i go through things.
that is what made me what i am today ,a submitter to the truth that is quran and to refuse all stories put by generations of ignorance.
i found you to be very calm in your replies and always tolerant.
thank you again ,hope to learn more from you and "the natural republic " i want to congradulate the author too.
at first i did not know that people like myself existed.
i was trying to understand and speculate by my self and i did find many explanation to be exactly like my understanding of the quran.
thank you all for the effort
and may God bless you all.
thank you ayman.
peace -
Is there anyone think about that
Why believers can't do "sawm" during voyage (2184) ??
Is there any difficulty for Islamic sawm (fasting) during voyage ?
Why believers forbidden to sex during "sawm" in public (masjit) instead of everywhere ?
Why there is no any mention about breaking "sawm" during war or propaganda in these hottest days ?
Can we get any relationship between day/night and propaganda-salat in day/take breath at night ?
Is "fasting" exact translation of the root of "Sad-Waw-Mim" ?
Regards
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Peace Ayman,
I have a problem
http//www.worldtravelguide.net/a/main/8f350f44-1a25-476a-9457-1c431cc20c8b/563a7dd0-d7f1-4216-8070-81dd4a9981d1/3e81277b-fe90-4d2d-a153-510e99409489.gif
As you can guess from the pic, the temperature here stays roughly the same throughout the year--but let's say, the hottest time in the year is around September (the driest is August). While the summer solstice for the Southern Hemisphere is in December. And i have yet to see which full moon is the brightest/clearest throughout the year (for 2010, local news said it (the brightest full moon) happened in January 30, Saturday night. Those in the northern hemisphere might have witnessed it in Friday night, January 29). That is, if this "perigee" full moon. Oh, and i found this Lunar Perigee and Apogee calculator. Seems that this "Lunar Perigee" has its own schedule (i.e., nothing annual).
Plus these are some info that i found contradicting your "scorching/orange/brightest full moon" explanation on the first page. I'm no astronomer, just a layman on this matter, but at least i can read between the lines...
The Moon at Perigee and Apogee
http//www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/figures/sidebyside.jpg
How Bright the Moonlight?
When the Moon is full near perigee, you'd expect it to be brighter than a full Moon near apogee and it is lots brighter; let's figure out how much. Since the Moon shines by reflecting sunlight (not very well?it reflects only about 7% of the light that strikes it, comparable to a lump of coal) the following two factors determine the intensity of moonlight at the Earth
- The intensity of sunlight striking the Moon.
- distance reflected light travels from the Moon to the Earth.
Since the difference between the minimum and maximum distance of the Moon, 50345 km, is an insignificant fraction of the average distance from the Sun to the Earth and Moon, 149597870 km, the intensity of sunlight at the Moon can be considered constant and ignored in this calculation. (Sunlight intensity at the Moon does vary, of course, due to the eccentricity of the Earth's orbit around the Sun, but we'll ignore that smaller annual effect here since we're concentrating on lunar perigee and apogee.)
The intensity of light varies as the inverse square of the distance between a light source and the observer, so taking the ratio between the perigee and apogee distances in the photographs above as typical, the distance at apogee was 1.1363 times the perigee distance, and hence the Moon's intensity at perigee was the square of this quantity, 1.2912 times brighter?about 30%. Using the long-term extremes plotted in the drawing in the previous section yields only a slightly greater intensity difference a distance variation of 1.1413, with the Moon shining 1.3026 times brighter at perigee.
Like the variation in angular size, few people ever notice this substantial difference in the intensity of moonlight at perigee and apogee because there's no absolute reference against which to compare them. If you could flick a switch and move the Moon back and forth between apogee and perigee, the difference would be obvious, though not as evident as you might expect from a 30% change in illumination due to the logarithmic response of the human eye. Another document on this site discusses the differences between the linear response of photographic film and electronic sensors as opposed to the human eye, and how computer image processing techniques can allow producing images that approximate visual perception.
source http//www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/moon_ap_per.html
And some bits of info which suggest that your "orange moon" theory needs some checking
http//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/78/Harvest_moon.jpg/300px-Harvest_moon.jpg
Times of appearance
The Harvest Moon comes soon before or soon after the autumnal equinox. It is simply the full moon closest to that equinox. About once every four years it occurs in October (in the northern hemisphere), depending on the cycles of the moon. Currently, the latest the Harvest Moon can occur is on October 7. Often, the Harvest Moon seems to be bigger or brighter or more colorful than other full moons. These effects are related to the seasonal tilt of the earth. The warm color of the moon shortly after it rises is caused by light from the moon passing through a greater amount of atmospheric particles than when the moon is overhead. The atmosphere scatters the bluish component of moonlight (which is really reflected white light from the sun), but allows the reddish component of the light to travel a straighter path to one's eyes. Hence all celestial bodies look reddish when they are low in the sky.
The apparent larger size is because the brain perceives a low-hanging moon to be larger than one that's high in the sky. This is known as a Moon Illusion and it can be seen with any full moon. It can also be seen with constellations; in other words, a constellation viewed low in the sky will appear bigger than when it is high in the sky.http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvest_moon
In short the hottest period of the year, the summer solstice, and the brightest/orange/scorching full moon, they don't mix so well -- i have trouble applying your proposition/theory into my situation. I was eager to put your timing theory into practice but now i'm just not sure.
Peace