Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Salaams truthseeker, and thanks for the info. Three days sounds better to me, but, I still see it being a whole month+10 days and I believe Isa and Musa fasted 40 days, but inshaAllah, if I am wrong may Allah guide me to the right decision.
The Full moon is on July 3 at 025154 pm Eastern Time(USA), which means the actual siting want be till Tuesday evening/night(night of destiny/power?), making Wednesday the 4th the first daylight period. Three day periods would be 4th,5th,& 6th going by that.
http//www.fullmoon.info/en/fullmoon-calendar.htmlJuly & August are the hottest months where I live. sun
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Salaams truthseeker, and thanks for the info. Three days sounds better to me, but, I still see it being a whole month+10 days and I believe Isa and Musa fasted 40 days, but inshaAllah, if I am wrong may Allah guide me to the right decision.
The Full moon is on July 3 at 025154 pm Eastern Time(USA), which means the actual siting want be till Tuesday evening/night(night of destiny/power?), making Wednesday the 4th the first daylight period. Three day periods would be 4th,5th,& 6th going by that.
http//www.fullmoon.info/en/fullmoon-calendar.htmlJuly & August are the hottest months where I live. sun
Salam, Peace,
any quranic support for the "I still see it being a whole month+10 days and I believe Isa and Musa fasted 40 days,"?
thanks
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Salaam JKRethland
According to the Bible Moses, Elijah and Jesus fasted for 40 days and nights, these where special people with special assignments.
Nowhere these ways of fasting are prescribed in the Bible for the ordinary believers.The Jewish people have only an obligatory fast of 24 hours - yaum kipoor-, Christians actually have no obligatory fast prescribed in the Bible.
2278 ... It is He Who has elected you to carry the message and has placed no hardship in religion, the Creed of your father Abraham ...
Seen with the naked eye, the full moon has a duration of three days, with a visibility of at least 98,5 percent.
So one can witness the full moon this year (here in Western-Europe) at the evening of 2th of July, then the night of the fast begins (2187) to prepare for the fast, the actual fasting can be then at 3th,4th and 5th of July.If you would fast the 6th of July - then the moon is not full anymore when seen with the naked eye - it has about only 95 percent visibility, then you would go across the time-frame as given in verse 2185 - to fast the duration of the -scorching full moon- itself, not any moment longer.
Salaam,
TruthseekerDisclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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Salam, Peace,
any quranic support for the "I still see it being a whole month+10 days and I believe Isa and Musa fasted 40 days,"?
thanks
Peace,
7142 is where I was getting the "whole month+10 days" for Musa. Yeah I see its not exactly referring to ramadan. I may have to adjust my view or at least not use this surah in reference to ramadan. But there is 29/30 days between one full moon and another. Hmmm 3 days or 29? May Allah rightly guide us.
As for Isa , it mentions he fasted 40 days in the Gospels. I mentioned it as an example. Just like some use the OT to show that David prayed 3 times a day, Evening, and morning, and at noon Psalm 5517-18.
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Salaam JKRethland
According to the Bible Moses, Elijah and Jesus fasted for 40 days and nights, these where special people with special assignments.
Nowhere these ways of fasting are prescribed in the Bible for the ordinary believers.The Jewish people have only an obligatory fast of 24 hours - yaum kipoor-, Christians actually have no obligatory fast prescribed in the Bible.
2278 ... It is He Who has elected you to carry the message and has placed no hardship in religion, the Creed of your father Abraham ...
Seen with the naked eye, the full moon has a duration of three days, with a visibility of at least 98,5 percent.
So one can witness the full moon this year (here in Western-Europe) at the evening of 2th of July, then the night of the fast begins (2187) to prepare for the fast, the actual fasting can be then at 3th,4th and 5th of July.If you would fast the 6th of July - then the moon is not full anymore when seen with the naked eye - it has about only 95 percent visibility, then you would go across the time-frame as given in verse 2185 - to fast the duration of the -scorching full moon- itself, not any moment longer.
Salaam,
TruthseekerDisclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
The Full moon here in Central time zone USA is on July 3rd at 015154 pm , which means the actual siting want be till Tuesday evening/night(night of destiny/power?), making Wednesday the 4th the first daylight period to fast. Three day periods here would be 4th,5th,& 6th.The moon want be full here on the 2nd, just the nights of 3rd,4th,& 5th. And cant fast the 3rd as the fullmoon isnt until almost 2 pm in the afternoon.
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The Full moon here in Central time zone USA is on July 3rd at 015154 pm , which means the actual siting want be till Tuesday evening/night(night of destiny/power?), making Wednesday the 4th the first daylight period to fast. Three day periods here would be 4th,5th,& 6th.The moon want be full here on the 2nd, just the nights of 3rd,4th,& 5th. And cant fast the 3rd as the fullmoon isnt until almost 2 pm in the afternoon.
Seen with the naked eye, the full moon has a duration of three days, with a visibility of at least 98,5 percent. Probably also near your place at the evening of 2th July the moon can be witnessed as full - with the naked eye. So you could fast the 3th,4th and 5th of July.
The -scientific full moon- lasts only a few minutes - but with the naked eye it can be witnessed three days, the difference between 98.5 and 99.9 is hardly noticeable. Actually the real scientific full moon would be a lunar eclipse - so this means that the moon is never exactly seen as full.
The 6th of July according to the tables, the moon will be shrunk to about 95 percent visibility and is not full anymore.Salaam,
TruthseekerDisclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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Seen with the naked eye, the full moon has a duration of three days, with a visibility of at least 98,5 percent. Probably also near your place at the evening of 2th July the moon can be witnessed as full - with the naked eye. So you could fast the 3th,4th and 5th of July.
The -scientific full moon- lasts only a few minutes - but with the naked eye it can be witnessed three days, the difference between 98.5 and 99.9 is hardly noticeable. Actually the real scientific full moon would be a lunar eclipse - so this means that the moon is never exactly seen as full.
The 6th of July according to the tables, the moon will be shrunk to about 95 percent visibility and is not full anymore.Salaam,
TruthseekerDisclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
After lookin at this link http//www.farmersalmanac.com/calendar/moon-phases/ I see what your talking about, tonight it will be 98 % tomorrow 100% and Wednesday it will be 98%.
So the fast shouldnt actually start on the actual full moon but what it appears to be.
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After lookin at this link http//www.farmersalmanac.com/calendar/moon-phases/ I see what your talking about, tonight it will be 98 % tomorrow 100% and Wednesday it will be 98%.
So the fast shouldnt actually start on the actual full moon but what it appears to be.
Agreed - one can witness the full moon if it appears to be full with the naked eye. This is a natural way of using the moon as a calendar.
A moon can be never perfectly full as seen from the earth, because only a lunar eclipse would be the perfect balanced full moon.Salaam,
TruthseekerDisclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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Salaam Mmkhan
As far as I know the hottest month on the Northern Hemisphere is in general
continental climate - July, because of the summersolstice
maritime climate - August, because of the gradual warming of the sea during summer- of course there can be local differences.
But these differences over the world seem not to be relevant for the communal fast because of following
According to verse 2185, the fasting is linked to the arrival of the Quran, the fasting can be a celebration for the Guidance that has been received.
2185 The -shahr- (full moon) of Ramadan, in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, those of you who witness the -shahr- (full moon) shall fast therein. Whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God because He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
This is for me the main reason that all believers over the world can abstain at the same days all over the world - namely the full moon when the Quran has arrived, most probably that was the -scorching moon- in Arabia.
In Arabia the most reddish full moon, during the most hot period, is the first one after 21th of June, this year 3th,4th and 5th of July.Salaam,
TruthseekerDisclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
Salaam brother,
Sorry for late reply.
I think you have to understand means "unzila" in 2185. "Naazil" does not mean send down for the first time as this word is commonly used for rain.
BTW, I have no proof that AlQuraan was send down for the first time in Arabia or to Mohammed.
Hence, fasting has nothing to do with nazala of AlQuraan, inshaAllah.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmkhan -
I think you have to understand means "unzila" in 2185. "Naazil" does not mean send down for the first time as this word is commonly used for rain.
BTW, I have no proof that AlQuraan was send down for the first time in Arabia or to Mohammed.
Hence, fasting has nothing to do with nazala of AlQuraan, inshaAllah.
Salaam brother
2185 The -shahr- (full moon) of Ramadan, in which the Quran was sent down/revealed as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, those of you who witness the -shahr- (full moon) shall fast therein. Whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God because He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
In general the word -unzila- is translated as -sent down- or -revealed-.
Several verses of the Koran mention that water is sent down, for instance in the form of rain.
That does not contradict the reading of verse 2185 as was suggested.122 We have sent it down an Arabic Quran/recitation, perhaps you will reason.
It is true - we do not have 100 percent evidence that the actual sending down on the person that received the Koran happened in Arabia at that moment.
Though there is enough circumstantial evidence found in the Koran to assume that Mohammad was in an arid area on the Northern Hemisphere. I do not have any evidence that shows otherwise. Hence the first full moon after the summersolstice of the Northern Hemisphere seems to be the right one.
There is no indication that Mohammed lived in a maritime west-coast climate, that is one of the rare climates that has August as the warmest period of the year.Salaam,
TruthseekerDisclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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Salam Ayman.
I believe you have seen this; http//www.free-islam.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=2505 This guy said he debated with you in 2006 on this subject. Cannot see it on here, seems to be a big gap from 2005-2007 I have been studying this subject, and I am confused as to how Ma'doodat means a number from 3-10. This guy says some horrible things about you, which I find completely unfounded. The point he makes is that the AT at the end is only for grammatical Ayaam Madoodat is also valid, in this case the AT may be added to describe the feminine plural Ayaam, again the meaning of the word Madoodat STAYS THE SAME.
Could you be so kind and explain this to me, as I am a little confused.
I appreciate your time and kind response.
Salam Simone. -
In general the word -unzila- is translated as -sent down- or -revealed-.
Several verses of the Koran mention that water is sent down, for instance in the form of rain.
That does not contradict the reading of verse 2185 as was suggested.Salaam brother,
Oh! Sorry again for a month late reply as I missed this thread and was not remember to answer this. Anyways, here it goes...
If you understood the red part above, than you can also understand that "sent down" of rain does not mean that "rain will not send down anymore". Hope you understand what I am saying, inshaAllah.
And there are several aayaats that says about AlQuraan which is still under process of sending down. If you are interested inshaAllah I will write about it.
About Mohammed, please click here
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan -
Peace Simone,
I believe you have seen this; http//www.free-islam.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=2505 This guy said he debated with you in 2006 on this subject. Cannot see it on here, seems to be a big gap from 2005-2007 I have been studying this subject, and I am confused as to how Ma'doodat means a number from 3-10. This guy says some horrible things about you, which I find completely unfounded. The point he makes is that the AT at the end is only for grammatical Ayaam Madoodat is also valid, in this case the AT may be added to describe the feminine plural Ayaam, again the meaning of the word Madoodat STAYS THE SAME.
Could you be so kind and explain this to me, as I am a little confused.
I appreciate your time and kind response.Sorry for late reply. Just saw this post.
The meaning of the term "maadoodat" is given by the dictionary as "few". You can see this here
http//i85.photobucket.com/albums/k50/maxq_2006/lexi-madood.gif
If the meaning is not the dictionary meaning and instead means "counted" then what is the purpose of saying that? It becomes superfluous and useless information since any number is counted.
This guy used to post on this forum and he could never explain why he felt so strongly that he needed to deviate from the Classical Arabic dictionary meaning even when his interpretation made the word superfluous. I think his only objective was to argue against me ) and he couldn't see beyond this and realize the implications of his own interpretation.
Not sure where he stands on other issues right now but as far as I remember at the time he was promoting idols like the stone cube, etc. I think that he wasn't very happy when I exposed his filthy idols. )
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg112329#msg112329
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman.
LOL! I completely forgot I asked you this question. It's probably a bloomin' good job too, as the months rolled into years, I would have been pulling my hair out, and emailing you every month. o Kinda reminds of a Sci fi film, where you would have to scale mountains, cross rivers, fight dragons and demons to eventually arrive at the Oracle's Castle, and then your question would be answered. Phew! jediThank you Ayman. Still somewhat confused on the Shahr meaning full moon, meaning month? I will no doubt be reading the entire thread again soon enough. brickwall confused
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Peace S-d,
LOL! I completely forgot I asked you this question. It's probably a bloomin' good job too, as the months rolled into years, I would have been pulling my hair out, and emailing you every month. Kinda reminds of a Sci fi film, where you would have to scale mountains, cross rivers, fight dragons and demons to eventually arrive at the Oracle's Castle, and then your question would be answered. Phew! jedi
Thank you Ayman. Still somewhat confused on the Shahr meaning full moon, meaning month? I will no doubt be reading the entire thread again soon enough. brickwall confusedIf you can read Arabic, it would probably be more efficient to read the following book
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace S-d,
If you can read Arabic, it would probably be more efficient to read the following book
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman
What do you think about this ?
Firstly you must remember
that the Qur'aan is a book that has been revealed in The Arabic Language and in particular the dialect of The tribe of Quraysh.
Did you know
that approximately 80% of Muslims do not know Arabic?
Did you know
that 90% and plus of Muslims who say they speak Arabic do not speak the Arabic of The Qur'aan?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604801.10Peace
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Peace all.
I realize that this thread is extremely long, and what I am about to write may have already been said or replied to, but in the case that it hasn't, I'll see what people think.
I've been studying the Qur'an in regards to "ramadan". I read Ayman's article about it and honestly found a lot very interesting and could see some basis for it in the Qur'an as well as in 'Arabic dictionaries. However, when discussing the issue last night with my wife a few things came up that have got me thinking.
The definitions of the key words "m'addudat","shahr", and "ramadan" are really the main issues that I believe, once understood correctly, will solve the meaning of the the time and length of the fasting period.
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I have noted several definition for the root Ayn-Dal-Dal counted, numbered, and as Ayman pointed out from the Qur'an itself as well as in classical 'Arabic dictionaries, few. All of these definitions can be quite subjective and relative; someone could argue that 29-30 days out of 365 days could be considered a few. I don't necessarily agree with this argument, but I understand it.
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In terms of "completing the count" in 2185, this can also be taken to mean different things depending on the meaning of the other words in question. My wife asked why we would have to look at a verse about Hajj to determine the length of fasting, and I was a little confused myself. I wonder if there is an easier way of understanding the exact length of the fasting period based on the verses in relation to fasting itself instead of having to look in so many different places to put a puzzle together. One very interesting thing I noticed is that in 892 God is swearing/taking an oath on 10 nights. What are these ten nights? They must be significant indeed.
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The definition of "shahr" as "full moon" is understandable and logical as a "full moon" fits the description of the root Sh-ha-Ra as being "apparent, manifest, conspicuous, public". I found it weird that dictionaries gave the definition of "new moon" as that is not "apparent" at all as far as I am concerned. However, the first sighting of the moon in its phase does make sense to use as a starting point of a time period. When I look at images of the lunar phases I find that the nights before and after the "full moon" look identical to me, so this confuses me as to how it is any easier to determine for lay folk like myself without the use of a "calendar" of sorts.
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The root Ra-Meem-Dad does definitely refer to intense heat, but again this is a little subjective in my opinion regarding when this time actually is. Brother Ayman has put forward the idea that this is the "full moon" of the summer solstice, but I was thinking the "full moon" following the summer solstice is actually during the middle (hottest time) of summer, and this might fit the description better.
Again, please forgive me if I am being repetitive or if these issues have already been clarified.
May God increase our knowledge.
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Peace,
Please excuse me and disregard #4 of my previous post. As I read over the article and thread again last night I realized that Ayman is talking about the full moon following the summer solstice, which makes much more sense.
After re-reading as much as I could yesterday, the main thing that I cannot get my head around is this "complete the count=10 days" understanding.
In one post brother Ayman said
..."2185 contains the COMPLETE information one needs to know when to start and end the abstinence. One doesn't need to look at any other verses for that purpose"
I have yet to understand how this is possible. To the best of my knowledge, in order to understand this complete the count, we must look at verses regarding Hajj and Moses' appointment with God on the mount. Is there not a clear cut answer to the duration of the fast within the command itself without unraveling a mystery?
I believe God gave us clear commands to follow that are straightforward, and although certain things required a little thought and consideration for me to understand what I do at this point, fasting/abstinence seems to be a tricky one to figure out solely from the verses dealing with the actual command.
Again, if someone could break down the whole "a few days/complete the count=10 days" from 2184-185, I would really appreciate it.
God bless.
James
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Upon further inspection, I noticed that the listing for Sh-ha-Ra in Lane's Lexicon do not mention "full moon", but rather "new moon" from Lisaan Al Arab and Taj el Aroos, and "the moon,when conspicuous, and near to being full" from Kamoos.
I do not have access to actual classical 'Arabic dictionaries, and would not be able to comprehend them as I can only read the alphabet at this point, but if someone could provide the following dictionary entries with an English translation, it would really help me out.
- A reference to "m'adoodat" having a meaning of a "maximum number of ten".
- The word "shahr" actually meaning "full moon".
I would like to be able to verify these points as best I can before I am able to accept them as facts.
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Peace be with you.
Please forgive me for being repetitive. I wrote the following as a message to a brother, and I thought that it was the most complete, pardon the pun, question/comment I have put together so far on this subject.
One of the major things regarding the duration of the abstinence I am trying to understand is in regard to the theory of "complete the count" being ten.
I understand exactly what you are saying about putting things in different verses together to grasp a concept, but in my experience I have always found logic in the connections because the verses were related in terms of the subject. For example, although I still may have lots to learn on the subject, I found that the times of salat were found in the limited verses dealing specifically with salat and not from verses on fasting. Likewise, with the topic of fasting/abstinence I expect to find a clear answer about the duration within the verses about the topic itself.
In this case we are looking at the meaning of "complete the count". From what I understand of your explanation and the explanations of many others this phrase in 'Arabic is found throughout the Qur'an to indicate ten. However, in the verses you mentioned I do not see a clear connection.
Let me try to explain
2185 "walitukmiloo alAAiddata" and complete the count
2196 "tilka AAasharatun kamilatun" = this is ten complete
7142 "waatmamnaha biAAashrin" = and we completed then with ten
2827 "fa-in atmamta AAashran" = but if you complete tenThe only verse above that contains a word from the same root "kaf-meem- lam" as in 2185, is 2196. However, this verse, in my understanding, is talking about Hajj and that three days are to be fasted while at/on/in Hajj and 7 once the individual has returned home. I do not know why God chose to say "this is ten complete", but I do not see how we can use this verse about Hajj to define the duration of the annual fast of Ramadan. To me it is similar to a discussion I had years ago with someone trying to define the night and day by the time of fasting mentioned in 2187.
Interestingly, there is another verse dealing with a duration of time which uses a word from the same root, namely 1625. In this verse it says "hawlayni kamilayni" or "2 years complete". To me this shows that there are other "complete counts", that it depends on what is being discussed, and cannot be taken to mean 10 in every occurrence.
As for the other verses, neither say "complete the count". 7142 talks about "completing 30 WITH 10" to make 40, so 40 is the actual total. In 2827 Moses' father in law is giving him an option to complete 10 hajj's if he volunteered to do extra work.
It just seems a like bit of a disjointed argument to tie these verses together to arrive at an understanding of "complete the count" in 2185. I have been thinking of an alternative, but the only thing I could think of, which another brother already pointed out, is that "complete the count" is simply referring to completing the days that one was unable to fast due to to illness or because of travelling. Perhaps "ma'doodat" is all we need in terms of a duration. Maybe God left it up to the individual to fast however many days they are able to as long as it is a "few" after witnessing "shahr ramadan"? I'm not entirely sure yet, but I do see some apparent inconsistencies in the "complete count" being ten argument.
I hope no one takes this as an attack or anything of the sort. I simply want to discuss this matter intelligently with anyone willing to, and pray that God guides us to the truth.
God bless.
James