Hot/"ramadan" Answer

simonejamilla

Peace Ayman.
LOL! I completely forgot I asked you this question. It's probably a bloomin' good job too, as the months rolled into years, I would have been pulling my hair out, and emailing you every month. o Kinda reminds of a Sci fi film, where you would have to scale mountains, cross rivers, fight dragons and demons to eventually arrive at the Oracle's Castle, and then your question would be answered. Phew! jedi

Thank you Ayman. Still somewhat confused on the Shahr meaning full moon, meaning month? I will no doubt be reading the entire thread again soon enough. brickwall confused

ayman

Peace S-d,

LOL! I completely forgot I asked you this question. It's probably a bloomin' good job too, as the months rolled into years, I would have been pulling my hair out, and emailing you every month. Kinda reminds of a Sci fi film, where you would have to scale mountains, cross rivers, fight dragons and demons to eventually arrive at the Oracle's Castle, and then your question would be answered. Phew! jedi
Thank you Ayman. Still somewhat confused on the Shahr meaning full moon, meaning month? I will no doubt be reading the entire thread again soon enough. brickwall confused

If you can read Arabic, it would probably be more efficient to read the following book

www.quran4peace.org

Peace,

Ayman

farida

Peace S-d,

If you can read Arabic, it would probably be more efficient to read the following book

www.quran4peace.org

Peace,

Ayman

Peace Ayman

What do you think about this ?

Firstly you must remember

that the Qur'aan is a book that has been revealed in The Arabic Language and in particular the dialect of The tribe of Quraysh.

Did you know

that approximately 80% of Muslims do not know Arabic?

Did you know

that 90% and plus of Muslims who say they speak Arabic do not speak the Arabic of The Qur'aan?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604801.10

Peace

jtc

Peace all.

I realize that this thread is extremely long, and what I am about to write may have already been said or replied to, but in the case that it hasn't, I'll see what people think.

I've been studying the Qur'an in regards to "ramadan". I read Ayman's article about it and honestly found a lot very interesting and could see some basis for it in the Qur'an as well as in 'Arabic dictionaries. However, when discussing the issue last night with my wife a few things came up that have got me thinking.

The definitions of the key words "m'addudat","shahr", and "ramadan" are really the main issues that I believe, once understood correctly, will solve the meaning of the the time and length of the fasting period.

I have noted several definition for the root Ayn-Dal-Dal counted, numbered, and as Ayman pointed out from the Qur'an itself as well as in classical 'Arabic dictionaries, few. All of these definitions can be quite subjective and relative; someone could argue that 29-30 days out of 365 days could be considered a few. I don't necessarily agree with this argument, but I understand it.
In terms of "completing the count" in 2185, this can also be taken to mean different things depending on the meaning of the other words in question. My wife asked why we would have to look at a verse about Hajj to determine the length of fasting, and I was a little confused myself. I wonder if there is an easier way of understanding the exact length of the fasting period based on the verses in relation to fasting itself instead of having to look in so many different places to put a puzzle together. One very interesting thing I noticed is that in 892 God is swearing/taking an oath on 10 nights. What are these ten nights? They must be significant indeed.
The definition of "shahr" as "full moon" is understandable and logical as a "full moon" fits the description of the root Sh-ha-Ra as being "apparent, manifest, conspicuous, public". I found it weird that dictionaries gave the definition of "new moon" as that is not "apparent" at all as far as I am concerned. However, the first sighting of the moon in its phase does make sense to use as a starting point of a time period. When I look at images of the lunar phases I find that the nights before and after the "full moon" look identical to me, so this confuses me as to how it is any easier to determine for lay folk like myself without the use of a "calendar" of sorts.
The root Ra-Meem-Dad does definitely refer to intense heat, but again this is a little subjective in my opinion regarding when this time actually is. Brother Ayman has put forward the idea that this is the "full moon" of the summer solstice, but I was thinking the "full moon" following the summer solstice is actually during the middle (hottest time) of summer, and this might fit the description better.

Again, please forgive me if I am being repetitive or if these issues have already been clarified.

May God increase our knowledge.

jtc

Peace,

Please excuse me and disregard #4 of my previous post. As I read over the article and thread again last night I realized that Ayman is talking about the full moon following the summer solstice, which makes much more sense.

After re-reading as much as I could yesterday, the main thing that I cannot get my head around is this "complete the count=10 days" understanding.

In one post brother Ayman said

..."2185 contains the COMPLETE information one needs to know when to start and end the abstinence. One doesn't need to look at any other verses for that purpose"

I have yet to understand how this is possible. To the best of my knowledge, in order to understand this complete the count, we must look at verses regarding Hajj and Moses' appointment with God on the mount. Is there not a clear cut answer to the duration of the fast within the command itself without unraveling a mystery?

I believe God gave us clear commands to follow that are straightforward, and although certain things required a little thought and consideration for me to understand what I do at this point, fasting/abstinence seems to be a tricky one to figure out solely from the verses dealing with the actual command.

Again, if someone could break down the whole "a few days/complete the count=10 days" from 2184-185, I would really appreciate it.

God bless.

James

jtc

Upon further inspection, I noticed that the listing for Sh-ha-Ra in Lane's Lexicon do not mention "full moon", but rather "new moon" from Lisaan Al Arab and Taj el Aroos, and "the moon,when conspicuous, and near to being full" from Kamoos.

I do not have access to actual classical 'Arabic dictionaries, and would not be able to comprehend them as I can only read the alphabet at this point, but if someone could provide the following dictionary entries with an English translation, it would really help me out.

A reference to "m'adoodat" having a meaning of a "maximum number of ten".
The word "shahr" actually meaning "full moon".

I would like to be able to verify these points as best I can before I am able to accept them as facts.

jtc

Peace be with you.

Please forgive me for being repetitive. I wrote the following as a message to a brother, and I thought that it was the most complete, pardon the pun, question/comment I have put together so far on this subject.

One of the major things regarding the duration of the abstinence I am trying to understand is in regard to the theory of "complete the count" being ten.

I understand exactly what you are saying about putting things in different verses together to grasp a concept, but in my experience I have always found logic in the connections because the verses were related in terms of the subject. For example, although I still may have lots to learn on the subject, I found that the times of salat were found in the limited verses dealing specifically with salat and not from verses on fasting. Likewise, with the topic of fasting/abstinence I expect to find a clear answer about the duration within the verses about the topic itself.

In this case we are looking at the meaning of "complete the count". From what I understand of your explanation and the explanations of many others this phrase in 'Arabic is found throughout the Qur'an to indicate ten. However, in the verses you mentioned I do not see a clear connection.

Let me try to explain

2185 "walitukmiloo alAAiddata" and complete the count

2196 "tilka AAasharatun kamilatun" = this is ten complete
7142 "waatmamnaha biAAashrin" = and we completed then with ten
2827 "fa-in atmamta AAashran" = but if you complete ten

The only verse above that contains a word from the same root "kaf-meem- lam" as in 2185, is 2196. However, this verse, in my understanding, is talking about Hajj and that three days are to be fasted while at/on/in Hajj and 7 once the individual has returned home. I do not know why God chose to say "this is ten complete", but I do not see how we can use this verse about Hajj to define the duration of the annual fast of Ramadan. To me it is similar to a discussion I had years ago with someone trying to define the night and day by the time of fasting mentioned in 2187.

Interestingly, there is another verse dealing with a duration of time which uses a word from the same root, namely 1625. In this verse it says "hawlayni kamilayni" or "2 years complete". To me this shows that there are other "complete counts", that it depends on what is being discussed, and cannot be taken to mean 10 in every occurrence.

As for the other verses, neither say "complete the count". 7142 talks about "completing 30 WITH 10" to make 40, so 40 is the actual total. In 2827 Moses' father in law is giving him an option to complete 10 hajj's if he volunteered to do extra work.

It just seems a like bit of a disjointed argument to tie these verses together to arrive at an understanding of "complete the count" in 2185. I have been thinking of an alternative, but the only thing I could think of, which another brother already pointed out, is that "complete the count" is simply referring to completing the days that one was unable to fast due to to illness or because of travelling. Perhaps "ma'doodat" is all we need in terms of a duration. Maybe God left it up to the individual to fast however many days they are able to as long as it is a "few" after witnessing "shahr ramadan"? I'm not entirely sure yet, but I do see some apparent inconsistencies in the "complete count" being ten argument.

I hope no one takes this as an attack or anything of the sort. I simply want to discuss this matter intelligently with anyone willing to, and pray that God guides us to the truth.

God bless.

James

ayman

Peace Farida,

What do you think about this ?
Firstly you must remember
that the Qur'aan is a book that has been revealed in The Arabic Language and in particular the dialect of The tribe of Quraysh.
Did you know
that approximately 80% of Muslims do not know Arabic?
Did you know
that 90% and plus of Muslims who say they speak Arabic do not speak the Arabic of The Qur'aan?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604801.10

Language is not an issue. The bigger problem for being guided to a better understanding has nothing to do with language

This is the book no doubt in it guidance for the forethoughtful

Notice that the term "magnify the god for what he has guided you" only occurs with respect to the timing of the fast and the feeding of the poor in the feast. So only those who are guided will know those concepts. This is why they may not be easy.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Upon further inspection, I noticed that the listing for Sh-ha-Ra in Lane's Lexicon do not mention "full moon", but rather "new moon" from Lisaan Al Arab and Taj el Aroos, and "the moon,when conspicuous, and near to being full" from Kamoos.

I do not have access to actual classical 'Arabic dictionaries, and would not be able to comprehend them as I can only read the alphabet at this point, but if someone could provide the following dictionary entries with an English translation, it would really help me out.

A reference to "m'adoodat" having a meaning of a "maximum number of ten".
The word "shahr" actually meaning "full moon".

I would like to be able to verify these points as best I can before I am able to accept them as facts.

Here is a copy and paste of the relevant entry showing the meaning of "full-moon" in Lisan Al-Arab

.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace JTC,

Interestingly, there is another verse dealing with a duration of time which uses a word from the same root, namely 1625. In this verse it says "hawlayni kamilayni" or "2 years complete". To me this shows that there are other "complete counts", that it depends on what is being discussed, and cannot be taken to mean 10 in every occurrence.

Thank you for raising this issue. The word "hawl" indicates a "transformation". For example, it is used in relation to agriculture cycles as well as cycles of female camels bearing baby camels. Of course, with respect to the solar or luni-solar year, it would indicate the solar cycle. However, the context of "hawlayni kamilayni" is not about the solar cycle but is talking about babies. So the relevant cycle would be the cycle of the transformation of babies. In the case of babies this is the time it takes from conception to delivery or the gestation or pregnancy period (P). According to the great reading, pregnancy (P) + weaning (W) is 30 full-moons

....his carrying and weaning thirty full-moons.

P + W = 30 Shahr

We also know that weaning is the period of two "hawl". If we take ?hawl? to mean a solar cycle or 12 solar or lunar months or whatever, then we would get

P = 30-24= 6

This is impossible since it is too little for the average normal gestation period for human babies. So in the context of human babies ?hawl? can only mean the cycle of the transformation of human babies, which is 10 full-moons.

The period delimited by 10 full-moons is approximately 29.5x9 which is approximately 266 days. Interestingly, according to modern science the average embryonic age is 38 weeks or 266 days

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy#Duration

When we solve the equation P+W=30 correctly we get the same answer as modern science

P + W = 30 Full-Moons

W = 2P

Therefore

P + 2P = 30 Full-Moons
3P = 30 Full-Moons
P = 10 Full-Moons = 29.5x9 = 265.5 days

So here we have again the word ?COMPLETE cycle/transformation? or "hawlayni kamilayni" being used in relation to each ?hawl? being TEN full-moons.

There is another passage that talks about 2 years and it says the following

...and his weaning within two years...

The term "fi" indicates "within". So the weaning (W) is "within" 2 years so this means less than 2 calendar years.

W < 2 years

W = 2 Pregnancy periods = 20 Full-Moons < 2 years

All of the above statements are in line and do not contradict reality only if a ?COMPLETE hawl? means the human gestation period of TEN full-moons.

Also, this further confirms that ?shahr? must be the event of the full-moon and NOT a 30 day period since 10x30=300 days, which is too long for the average normal human pregnancy.

I hope this helps clarify the issue. Please let me know what you think.

Peace,

Ayman

jtc

Peace Ayman.

Sorry, but I am unable to read that excerpt from Lisan Al Arab you posted as I cannot understand Arabic. Would you be able to translate it for me.

Regarding your response to "completing the count" and how 233 (not 1625 as I mentioned by mistake) I'm still having a hard time understanding how the Qur'an can deal with something apparently so important in such an ambiguous way.

I've been struggling with re-evaluating my understanding of the Qur'an over the past year or so. I feel like the more I study, the less I understand. I used to be "certain" about pretty much everything until I realized the translation I was reading was so far off and just based on hadith and inherited practices. I'm fine with that, but the only alternative is to basically study the Qur'an in a language that has so many possibilities for the meanings of words and phrases. I have read so many articles and posts on this site and can see validity in a lot of them, but things like salat, hajj, and ramadan, I am really not understanding anymore. How can I as an Englishman truly understand a book that is in classical 'Arabic; how can I follow/uphold something I don't even understand according to 1736?

I believe in God, but my faith in the Qur'an seems to be in question as the days go by, and what I once believed was a clear book for all mankind is becoming a linguistic and logical mystery that no one in this day and age can ever truly understand.

This is probably a topic for another post, but I wanted to share it here so that maybe people can understand why topics such as ramadan can be confusing to non-'Arabic speaking individuals who can do nothing but rely on other peoples translations or make up their own.

I appreciate anyone who is willing to discuss the matter further.

God bless.

James

ayman

Peace Ayman.

Sorry, but I am unable to read that excerpt from Lisan Al Arab you posted as I cannot understand Arabic. Would you be able to translate it for me.

Here is the translation

Shahr The moon and it was called such due to it being obvious/famous and apparent and it is said "when it is apparent and nearly full".

Regarding your response to "completing the count" and how 233 (not 1625 as I mentioned by mistake) I'm still having a hard time understanding how the Qur'an can deal with something apparently so important in such an ambiguous way.

I've been struggling with re-evaluating my understanding of the Qur'an over the past year or so. I feel like the more I study, the less I understand. I used to be "certain" about pretty much everything until I realized the translation I was reading was so far off and just based on hadith and inherited practices. I'm fine with that, but the only alternative is to basically study the Qur'an in a language that has so many possibilities for the meanings of words and phrases. I have read so many articles and posts on this site and can see validity in a lot of them, but things like salat, hajj, and ramadan, I am really not understanding anymore. How can I as an Englishman truly understand a book that is in classical 'Arabic; how can I follow/uphold something I don't even understand according to 1736?

I believe in God, but my faith in the Qur'an seems to be in question as the days go by, and what I once believed was a clear book for all mankind is becoming a linguistic and logical mystery that no one in this day and age can ever truly understand.

This is probably a topic for another post, but I wanted to share it here so that maybe people can understand why topics such as ramadan can be confusing to non-'Arabic speaking individuals who can do nothing but rely on other peoples translations or make up their own.

I appreciate anyone who is willing to discuss the matter further.

God bless.

James

I don't believe it should be easy given the emphasis and close relation between knowing the timing and being guided by the great reading as indicated in 2185.

Peace,

Ayman

unknownuser

Peace, Ayman..

I agree with everything you said concerning the issue of "ramadan".

Ramadan = heat (the summer).... agree
Shahr = full moon (plain and clear for all to see)... agree
Shahr Ramadan = the full moon announcing the beginning of summer ...agree
Laylat al-Qadr = night of the summer solstice (longest night of the year)...agree
Laylat al-Qadr marks the beginning of the fastig period, not the last ten days thereof ...agree
The fasting period is not 30 days, but 10 days, beginning from the night of the summer solstice ... agree

There remains the issue of how to fix the lunar cycles to the seasons. Have you come to a solution concerning this issue?

The Jews have their own solution Although they follow a lunar calendar, they add an intercalary month periodically to make their lunar year conform with the seasons. Even those who follow a solar calendar (2/3 of humanity) add a day to February every 4 years to fix the discrepency.

But I keep asking myself Would Allah assign an imperfect system that needs intervention on our part to fix it? Maybe there is something about the 10 New Moon days that we failed to grasp?

Looking forward to you imput on this issue.

@jtc

Concerning Hajj, I believe the most logical explanation is that the 4 Restircted Months are the Hajj months. It cannot be any other way. Allah ordained a period of 4 months wherein we have to abstain from hunting game (wild animals). To make up for this restriction, Allah gave us the livestock (namely cows, camels, sheep and goats) as special creatures totally subserviant to us, and we can slaughter them during those 4 months (instead of hunting). The ancient Arabs knew this, and they observed the restirction. The Hajj serves the following functions

1- Eat the meat of the livestock that is offered, and feed the poor.
2- Discuss the problems that affect society in the presence of the elected leaders of the state.
3- Trade.
4- Remember the place of the first ever Bayt, which I am 100% confident is in the area where human civilization began, and where the First or Orginial Urban Settlement was established.
5- Give charity to the needy

What is going on in the so-called city of Makkah today is a farce, and a mockery of the real Hajj, and has nothing to do with the Deen whatsoever. It's all a bunch of pagan rituals.

Regards.

jtc

Peace Ayman.

So the meaning in Lisaan al 'Arab is "when it is apparent and nearly full"? I thought there was solid proof that it means full moon, not "nearly full".

So far I have found "new moon" and "nearly full moon", but not "full moon". I don't mean to be argumentative, but I just want to see a straightforward definition of a word of phrase at this point. So many articles I come across seem to take meanings and then manipulate them to come to another, albeit similar, meaning that isn't specifically listed in the classical 'Arabic dictionaries.

I'm not sure if this is an honest approach to studying a book that is supposed to be clear. It seems that even the most knowledgeable 'Arabic speakers spends years, if not decades, trying to find this "clarity".

mmmm

Peace Ayman.

Sorry, but I am unable to read that excerpt from Lisan Al Arab you posted as I cannot understand Arabic. Would you be able to translate it for me.

Regarding your response to "completing the count" and how 233 (not 1625 as I mentioned by mistake) I'm still having a hard time understanding how the Qur'an can deal with something apparently so important in such an ambiguous way.

I've been struggling with re-evaluating my understanding of the Qur'an over the past year or so. I feel like the more I study, the less I understand. I used to be "certain" about pretty much everything until I realized the translation I was reading was so far off and just based on hadith and inherited practices. I'm fine with that, but the only alternative is to basically study the Qur'an in a language that has so many possibilities for the meanings of words and phrases. I have read so many articles and posts on this site and can see validity in a lot of them, but things like salat, hajj, and ramadan, I am really not understanding anymore. How can I as an Englishman truly understand a book that is in classical 'Arabic; how can I follow/uphold something I don't even understand according to 1736?

I believe in God, but my faith in the Qur'an seems to be in question as the days go by, and what I once believed was a clear book for all mankind is becoming a linguistic and logical mystery that no one in this day and age can ever truly understand.

This is probably a topic for another post, but I wanted to share it here so that maybe people can understand why topics such as ramadan can be confusing to non-'Arabic speaking individuals who can do nothing but rely on other peoples translations or make up their own.

I appreciate anyone who is willing to discuss the matter further.

God bless.

James

I am starting to agree with you and the worst part for me is that I see no point in reading the translations because they vary so much (the classical I have have nothing to do with what the original says and I don't understand the original arabic), I am staring to loose the point and I am really really sad...

noshirk

Peace, Ayman..

I agree with everything you said concerning the issue of "ramadan".

Ramadan = heat (the summer).... agree
Shahr = full moon (plain and clear for all to see)... agree
Shahr Ramadan = the full moon announcing the beginning of summer ...agree
Laylat al-Qadr = night of the summer solstice (longest night of the year)...agree
Laylat al-Qadr marks the beginning of the fastig period, not the last ten days thereof ...agree
The fasting period is not 30 days, but 10 days, beginning from the night of the summer solstice ... agree

There remains the issue of how to fix the lunar cycles to the seasons. Have you come to a solution concerning this issue?

Salaam
please see here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604822.0

i disagree.

shahr=full moon ok
leylatou el qadr=night of (perfect) measure=equinox day=night where length of day equals length of night=day where sun rise in half distance between, the two machreq.
Ramadhan= periode of first rain after summer.

according to sourate el rum (30-1 and 30-2), quran was revealed just after defeat of rums (against persion) and before their victory. History tell us it is near year 617.

Astronomy tell us that autumn equinox of year 617 was, by coincidence, a full moon night. Moreover, moon was at iys perigee wich mean that it was what we call a supermoon.

For me, the proof is quite indiscutable.

Concerning fixing the lunar cycles to seasons, i accept the interpretation of brother ayman.

we don't have to take into acount the eventual 13 full moon between two autum equinox.
that would be meaning of word iddatou in verse 9-36 we asked to count only 12 full moons .

Quran says that nassiya (practiced by jews) is the false method (9-37).
it tells also that, some years, nassiya have the good counting.
that is an important indication. Jews are not always wrong.

So full moons have to be counted to 1 to 12 and the first shahr is the first after autum equinox.

Now, it is interesting to note that first full moon after autum equinox is always the day of jewish succot feast (even with their nassiya).
Succot is our first shahr haram. It is the one where saoum should occur.
from 19-26, saoum is spiritual retreat where we should not speak to humans.
phonetically, succot in arabic means silence.

for me, second and third shahr haram are also to be found in torah
the fourth one is the more complicated since jews lost it.
We have to find who is the nassara
it is, i think near the day where the zoroaster mithra was born.
Happy christmas dear brother pazuzu (even if jesus is a false prophet).

if i am wrong, please note that i have many coincidences and it is quran who astrayed me. ???

Peace

simonejamilla

Peace be with you.
What time of year should hunting restrictions start?

For mmm and jtc
The Lord and Sovereign has informed us that the
Qur'an is incorruptible as well as safeguarded

6115 The Word of your Lord is perfected in truth and justice. None can change His words. He is the All Hearing, the All Knowing.
634 Other messengers have been denied before you, and they bore their rejection and persecution steadfastly, until Our help came to them. There is no one who can change the words of God. You have already received some account of those messengers.
159 It is We who have sent down the Reminder and We will, most surely, safeguard it.

We are told that the book is easy to understand, with it's diversity of meanings derived or obtained by the basic root word. It should be obvious that the restraint/authority/judgement/wisdom/ is there, it all depends on who is searching for it, or who is just following blindly.

2269 He grants wisdom to whom He will; and whoever is granted wisdom has indeed been granted abundant wealth. Yet none bear this in mind except those endowed with understanding.

The truth is there for all to see, if you look about.

Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.

The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

In their history, there is a lesson for those who possess intelligence. This is not fabricated Hadith; this (Quran) confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a beacon and mercy for those who believe.

It doesn't matter that the Qur'an is in Arabic. What matters is that God Almighty has given us the wherewithal to understand the message.

God brought you out of your mothers' bellies knowing nothing, and He gave you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brains, that you may be appreciative.

You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.

There is truly a reminder in this for whoever has a heart, whoever listens attentively.

We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?

An Arabic Quran, without any ambiguity, that they may be righteous. fftopic yay

jtc

Peace Scrappy-doo.

I'm not sure I follow the logic is saying that "It doesn't matter that the Qur'an is in Arabic. What matters is that God Almighty has given us the wherewithal to understand the message." and then post a verse about the Qur'an being an 'Arabic book.

The fact of the matter is, those whose mother tongue is not the same language as this book are required to seek out a translation that they "like" or "understand", or study 'Arabic enough to basically make their own translation. This leave a lot of room for misunderstanding, misinterpretation, and making things up as we go along, all the time assuming that the book is from the Lord.

How can someone believe a book is from God, if they can't even understand it's language?
Also, just because the book says it is from God, does that make it so?

simonejamilla

Peace jtc.
The verses are there. They tell us that with a submissive heart and a sincere endeavour to better understand Allah's directives by using the faculties He endowed us with, we will come upon the truth.

Perhaps it would be better to start another Topic on this. peace

jtc

Peace Scrappy-doo.

I have started a few topics on this actually. It just is a topic that I feel applies to all of these threads, but I guess it is better to limit this to a discussion for those who are convinced of the Qur'an being the word of God.

I am still interested in what people think about the fasting period though. Right now I can see fasting mentioned as "a few days" during the "new/full moon". I am totally not getting the "complete the count" as being "fast ten days", but based on the root of shahr "full moon" seems to make more sense, even though the dictionaries seem to point to is being "new" or "being near full". The phrase "fast it" seems to be more accurate than "fast during it", in terms of translation.

I know this has been debated so many times, but I was wondering for some new thoughts or clarifications.