Hot/"ramadan" Answer

jtc

Peace Ayman.

Sorry, but I am unable to read that excerpt from Lisan Al Arab you posted as I cannot understand Arabic. Would you be able to translate it for me.

Regarding your response to "completing the count" and how 233 (not 1625 as I mentioned by mistake) I'm still having a hard time understanding how the Qur'an can deal with something apparently so important in such an ambiguous way.

I've been struggling with re-evaluating my understanding of the Qur'an over the past year or so. I feel like the more I study, the less I understand. I used to be "certain" about pretty much everything until I realized the translation I was reading was so far off and just based on hadith and inherited practices. I'm fine with that, but the only alternative is to basically study the Qur'an in a language that has so many possibilities for the meanings of words and phrases. I have read so many articles and posts on this site and can see validity in a lot of them, but things like salat, hajj, and ramadan, I am really not understanding anymore. How can I as an Englishman truly understand a book that is in classical 'Arabic; how can I follow/uphold something I don't even understand according to 1736?

I believe in God, but my faith in the Qur'an seems to be in question as the days go by, and what I once believed was a clear book for all mankind is becoming a linguistic and logical mystery that no one in this day and age can ever truly understand.

This is probably a topic for another post, but I wanted to share it here so that maybe people can understand why topics such as ramadan can be confusing to non-'Arabic speaking individuals who can do nothing but rely on other peoples translations or make up their own.

I appreciate anyone who is willing to discuss the matter further.

God bless.

James

ayman

Peace Ayman.

Sorry, but I am unable to read that excerpt from Lisan Al Arab you posted as I cannot understand Arabic. Would you be able to translate it for me.

Here is the translation

Shahr The moon and it was called such due to it being obvious/famous and apparent and it is said "when it is apparent and nearly full".

Regarding your response to "completing the count" and how 233 (not 1625 as I mentioned by mistake) I'm still having a hard time understanding how the Qur'an can deal with something apparently so important in such an ambiguous way.

I've been struggling with re-evaluating my understanding of the Qur'an over the past year or so. I feel like the more I study, the less I understand. I used to be "certain" about pretty much everything until I realized the translation I was reading was so far off and just based on hadith and inherited practices. I'm fine with that, but the only alternative is to basically study the Qur'an in a language that has so many possibilities for the meanings of words and phrases. I have read so many articles and posts on this site and can see validity in a lot of them, but things like salat, hajj, and ramadan, I am really not understanding anymore. How can I as an Englishman truly understand a book that is in classical 'Arabic; how can I follow/uphold something I don't even understand according to 1736?

I believe in God, but my faith in the Qur'an seems to be in question as the days go by, and what I once believed was a clear book for all mankind is becoming a linguistic and logical mystery that no one in this day and age can ever truly understand.

This is probably a topic for another post, but I wanted to share it here so that maybe people can understand why topics such as ramadan can be confusing to non-'Arabic speaking individuals who can do nothing but rely on other peoples translations or make up their own.

I appreciate anyone who is willing to discuss the matter further.

God bless.

James

I don't believe it should be easy given the emphasis and close relation between knowing the timing and being guided by the great reading as indicated in 2185.

Peace,

Ayman

unknownuser

Peace, Ayman..

I agree with everything you said concerning the issue of "ramadan".

Ramadan = heat (the summer).... agree
Shahr = full moon (plain and clear for all to see)... agree
Shahr Ramadan = the full moon announcing the beginning of summer ...agree
Laylat al-Qadr = night of the summer solstice (longest night of the year)...agree
Laylat al-Qadr marks the beginning of the fastig period, not the last ten days thereof ...agree
The fasting period is not 30 days, but 10 days, beginning from the night of the summer solstice ... agree

There remains the issue of how to fix the lunar cycles to the seasons. Have you come to a solution concerning this issue?

The Jews have their own solution Although they follow a lunar calendar, they add an intercalary month periodically to make their lunar year conform with the seasons. Even those who follow a solar calendar (2/3 of humanity) add a day to February every 4 years to fix the discrepency.

But I keep asking myself Would Allah assign an imperfect system that needs intervention on our part to fix it? Maybe there is something about the 10 New Moon days that we failed to grasp?

Looking forward to you imput on this issue.

@jtc

Concerning Hajj, I believe the most logical explanation is that the 4 Restircted Months are the Hajj months. It cannot be any other way. Allah ordained a period of 4 months wherein we have to abstain from hunting game (wild animals). To make up for this restriction, Allah gave us the livestock (namely cows, camels, sheep and goats) as special creatures totally subserviant to us, and we can slaughter them during those 4 months (instead of hunting). The ancient Arabs knew this, and they observed the restirction. The Hajj serves the following functions

1- Eat the meat of the livestock that is offered, and feed the poor.
2- Discuss the problems that affect society in the presence of the elected leaders of the state.
3- Trade.
4- Remember the place of the first ever Bayt, which I am 100% confident is in the area where human civilization began, and where the First or Orginial Urban Settlement was established.
5- Give charity to the needy

What is going on in the so-called city of Makkah today is a farce, and a mockery of the real Hajj, and has nothing to do with the Deen whatsoever. It's all a bunch of pagan rituals.

Regards.

jtc

Peace Ayman.

So the meaning in Lisaan al 'Arab is "when it is apparent and nearly full"? I thought there was solid proof that it means full moon, not "nearly full".

So far I have found "new moon" and "nearly full moon", but not "full moon". I don't mean to be argumentative, but I just want to see a straightforward definition of a word of phrase at this point. So many articles I come across seem to take meanings and then manipulate them to come to another, albeit similar, meaning that isn't specifically listed in the classical 'Arabic dictionaries.

I'm not sure if this is an honest approach to studying a book that is supposed to be clear. It seems that even the most knowledgeable 'Arabic speakers spends years, if not decades, trying to find this "clarity".

mmmm

Peace Ayman.

Sorry, but I am unable to read that excerpt from Lisan Al Arab you posted as I cannot understand Arabic. Would you be able to translate it for me.

Regarding your response to "completing the count" and how 233 (not 1625 as I mentioned by mistake) I'm still having a hard time understanding how the Qur'an can deal with something apparently so important in such an ambiguous way.

I've been struggling with re-evaluating my understanding of the Qur'an over the past year or so. I feel like the more I study, the less I understand. I used to be "certain" about pretty much everything until I realized the translation I was reading was so far off and just based on hadith and inherited practices. I'm fine with that, but the only alternative is to basically study the Qur'an in a language that has so many possibilities for the meanings of words and phrases. I have read so many articles and posts on this site and can see validity in a lot of them, but things like salat, hajj, and ramadan, I am really not understanding anymore. How can I as an Englishman truly understand a book that is in classical 'Arabic; how can I follow/uphold something I don't even understand according to 1736?

I believe in God, but my faith in the Qur'an seems to be in question as the days go by, and what I once believed was a clear book for all mankind is becoming a linguistic and logical mystery that no one in this day and age can ever truly understand.

This is probably a topic for another post, but I wanted to share it here so that maybe people can understand why topics such as ramadan can be confusing to non-'Arabic speaking individuals who can do nothing but rely on other peoples translations or make up their own.

I appreciate anyone who is willing to discuss the matter further.

God bless.

James

I am starting to agree with you and the worst part for me is that I see no point in reading the translations because they vary so much (the classical I have have nothing to do with what the original says and I don't understand the original arabic), I am staring to loose the point and I am really really sad...

noshirk

Peace, Ayman..

I agree with everything you said concerning the issue of "ramadan".

Ramadan = heat (the summer).... agree
Shahr = full moon (plain and clear for all to see)... agree
Shahr Ramadan = the full moon announcing the beginning of summer ...agree
Laylat al-Qadr = night of the summer solstice (longest night of the year)...agree
Laylat al-Qadr marks the beginning of the fastig period, not the last ten days thereof ...agree
The fasting period is not 30 days, but 10 days, beginning from the night of the summer solstice ... agree

There remains the issue of how to fix the lunar cycles to the seasons. Have you come to a solution concerning this issue?

Salaam
please see here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604822.0

i disagree.

shahr=full moon ok
leylatou el qadr=night of (perfect) measure=equinox day=night where length of day equals length of night=day where sun rise in half distance between, the two machreq.
Ramadhan= periode of first rain after summer.

according to sourate el rum (30-1 and 30-2), quran was revealed just after defeat of rums (against persion) and before their victory. History tell us it is near year 617.

Astronomy tell us that autumn equinox of year 617 was, by coincidence, a full moon night. Moreover, moon was at iys perigee wich mean that it was what we call a supermoon.

For me, the proof is quite indiscutable.

Concerning fixing the lunar cycles to seasons, i accept the interpretation of brother ayman.

we don't have to take into acount the eventual 13 full moon between two autum equinox.
that would be meaning of word iddatou in verse 9-36 we asked to count only 12 full moons .

Quran says that nassiya (practiced by jews) is the false method (9-37).
it tells also that, some years, nassiya have the good counting.
that is an important indication. Jews are not always wrong.

So full moons have to be counted to 1 to 12 and the first shahr is the first after autum equinox.

Now, it is interesting to note that first full moon after autum equinox is always the day of jewish succot feast (even with their nassiya).
Succot is our first shahr haram. It is the one where saoum should occur.
from 19-26, saoum is spiritual retreat where we should not speak to humans.
phonetically, succot in arabic means silence.

for me, second and third shahr haram are also to be found in torah
the fourth one is the more complicated since jews lost it.
We have to find who is the nassara
it is, i think near the day where the zoroaster mithra was born.
Happy christmas dear brother pazuzu (even if jesus is a false prophet).

if i am wrong, please note that i have many coincidences and it is quran who astrayed me. ???

Peace

simonejamilla

Peace be with you.
What time of year should hunting restrictions start?

For mmm and jtc
The Lord and Sovereign has informed us that the
Qur'an is incorruptible as well as safeguarded

6115 The Word of your Lord is perfected in truth and justice. None can change His words. He is the All Hearing, the All Knowing.
634 Other messengers have been denied before you, and they bore their rejection and persecution steadfastly, until Our help came to them. There is no one who can change the words of God. You have already received some account of those messengers.
159 It is We who have sent down the Reminder and We will, most surely, safeguard it.

We are told that the book is easy to understand, with it's diversity of meanings derived or obtained by the basic root word. It should be obvious that the restraint/authority/judgement/wisdom/ is there, it all depends on who is searching for it, or who is just following blindly.

2269 He grants wisdom to whom He will; and whoever is granted wisdom has indeed been granted abundant wealth. Yet none bear this in mind except those endowed with understanding.

The truth is there for all to see, if you look about.

Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.

The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

In their history, there is a lesson for those who possess intelligence. This is not fabricated Hadith; this (Quran) confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a beacon and mercy for those who believe.

It doesn't matter that the Qur'an is in Arabic. What matters is that God Almighty has given us the wherewithal to understand the message.

God brought you out of your mothers' bellies knowing nothing, and He gave you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brains, that you may be appreciative.

You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.

There is truly a reminder in this for whoever has a heart, whoever listens attentively.

We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?

An Arabic Quran, without any ambiguity, that they may be righteous. fftopic yay

jtc

Peace Scrappy-doo.

I'm not sure I follow the logic is saying that "It doesn't matter that the Qur'an is in Arabic. What matters is that God Almighty has given us the wherewithal to understand the message." and then post a verse about the Qur'an being an 'Arabic book.

The fact of the matter is, those whose mother tongue is not the same language as this book are required to seek out a translation that they "like" or "understand", or study 'Arabic enough to basically make their own translation. This leave a lot of room for misunderstanding, misinterpretation, and making things up as we go along, all the time assuming that the book is from the Lord.

How can someone believe a book is from God, if they can't even understand it's language?
Also, just because the book says it is from God, does that make it so?

simonejamilla

Peace jtc.
The verses are there. They tell us that with a submissive heart and a sincere endeavour to better understand Allah's directives by using the faculties He endowed us with, we will come upon the truth.

Perhaps it would be better to start another Topic on this. peace

jtc

Peace Scrappy-doo.

I have started a few topics on this actually. It just is a topic that I feel applies to all of these threads, but I guess it is better to limit this to a discussion for those who are convinced of the Qur'an being the word of God.

I am still interested in what people think about the fasting period though. Right now I can see fasting mentioned as "a few days" during the "new/full moon". I am totally not getting the "complete the count" as being "fast ten days", but based on the root of shahr "full moon" seems to make more sense, even though the dictionaries seem to point to is being "new" or "being near full". The phrase "fast it" seems to be more accurate than "fast during it", in terms of translation.

I know this has been debated so many times, but I was wondering for some new thoughts or clarifications.

ayman

Peace brother Pazuzu,

Ramadan = heat (the summer).... agree
Shahr = full moon (plain and clear for all to see)... agree
Shahr Ramadan = the full moon announcing the beginning of summer ...agree
Laylat al-Qadr = night of the summer solstice (longest night of the year)...agree
Laylat al-Qadr marks the beginning of the fastig period, not the last ten days thereof ...agree
The fasting period is not 30 days, but 10 days, beginning from the night of the summer solstice ... agree

Some slight clarifications that may help answer your remaining questions.

shahr ramadan/scorching full-moon is the same time as laylat al-qadr/night of measure (of the moon).

As you stated, shahr ramadan is the scorching full-moon. It is the first full-moon after the summer solstice which signals the hot time of the year and follows a low path accross the horizon, which gives it a reddish color.

Laylat al-qadr is the night of measure. The question is what is it a measure of? The ONLY other time in the great reading the term "qadr"/measure is used in relation to timing is in the following passage (can't remember the exact number)

And the moon we have measured it (qadarnahu) in descending stages (manazil) until it became like an old sheath.

Clearly the term "laylat al-qadr" has to do with this process. So the night of measure is the night when the measurement of the moon in descending stages begins. Since the moon shape can only begin to descend in stages from the full-moon then this is the night of the full-moon. In other words, it is the night of "shahr ramadan".

There remains the issue of how to fix the lunar cycles to the seasons. Have you come to a solution concerning this issue?
The Jews have their own solution Although they follow a lunar calendar, they add an intercalary month periodically to make their lunar year conform with the seasons. Even those who follow a solar calendar (2/3 of humanity) add a day to February every 4 years to fix the discrepency.
But I keep asking myself Would Allah assign an imperfect system that needs intervention on our part to fix it? Maybe there is something about the 10 New Moon days that we failed to grasp?
Looking forward to you imput on this issue.

This one is actually very simple. We are clearly told to count ONLY 12 full-moons in a year. The year is the time between solstices, specifically the mark we are given is the summer solstice. So we need to count 12 full-moons between summer solstices. In the year where we get 13 full-moons between summer solstices, we don't count this 13th full-moon and skip it. This will automatically and effortlessly adjust the lunar cycle to be aligned with the seasons. There is no simpler or clearer way. It is an amazingly perfect and clear system and its perfection is in its super simplicity.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

ayman

Peace brother JTC,

So the meaning in Lisaan al 'Arab is "when it is apparent and nearly full"? I thought there was solid proof that it means full moon, not "nearly full".
So far I have found "new moon" and "nearly full moon", but not "full moon". I don't mean to be argumentative, but I just want to see a straightforward definition of a word of phrase at this point. So many articles I come across seem to take meanings and then manipulate them to come to another, albeit similar, meaning that isn't specifically listed in the classical 'Arabic dictionaries.

Any full-moon that you see is actually 99.9% full. The actual 100% full-moon only lasts an instant.

No Arabic dictionary says that "shahr" means "new moon". So I am not sure where you got "new moon" from.

I would suggest looking at ALL the entries under shahr to see if the etymology of the word points to something full and round and apparent or something dim and cannot be seen by anyone except a lucky few.

I'm not sure if this is an honest approach to studying a book that is supposed to be clear. It seems that even the most knowledgeable 'Arabic speakers spends years, if not decades, trying to find this "clarity".

The book is clear in that the present timing of the sectarian so-called Ramadan clearly contradicts the book. We can all at least agree on that. Why do you think this is the case? Had the great reading been manmade then wouldn't it have been a lot easier for those who made it to insert their Umar invented false timing into it? Sometimes we know truth by contrasting with falsehood. So in the big picture, the god allowing falsehood to spread ultimately serves a good purpose.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace brother mmmm,

I am starting to agree with you and the worst part for me is that I see no point in reading the translations because they vary so much (the classical I have have nothing to do with what the original says and I don't understand the original arabic), I am staring to loose the point and I am really really sad...

We are actually very fortunate to be living in this day and age of the information revolution. Studying the great reading is now easier than ever. In fact, when it comes to the topic of the timing and "ramadan" you are very fortunate to be browsing this topic, which is probably the most thorough and complete thread on this subject in the entire UNIVERSE ).

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Noshirk,

shahr=full moon ok
leylatou el qadr=night of (perfect) measure=equinox day=night where length of day equals length of night=day where sun rise in half distance between, the two machreq.
Ramadhan= periode of first rain after summer.

The term "qadr" is never used in the great reading in reference to the sun or the equinoxes. When it comes to timing, it is ONLY used in relation to the moon and specifically the ful-moon as I mentioned above to Pazuzu.

And the moon we have measured it (qadarnahu) in descending stages (manazil) until it became like an old sheath.

according to sourate el rum (30-1 and 30-2), quran was revealed just after defeat of rums (against persion) and before their victory. History tell us it is near year 617.
Astronomy tell us that autumn equinox of year 617 was, by coincidence, a full moon night. Moreover, moon was at iys perigee wich mean that it was what we call a supermoon.
For me, the proof is quite indiscutable.

Not sure where you got the year 617 from. Also, I think that contextually the events in 301-2 are reversed due to vocalization distortion. Why would the believers by happy with the victory of the trinitarian Romans??

Also, according to the Romans manuscripta the Arabs started raiding them in 620-621CE. At this time, according to traditions, the prophet didn't even immigrate yet!

Concerning fixing the lunar cycles to seasons, i accept the interpretation of brother ayman.
we don't have to take into acount the eventual 13 full moon between two autum equinox.
that would be meaning of word iddatou in verse 9-36 we asked to count only 12 full moons .

The god clearly tells us in 1712 that we know the year by the day and night. The only way that you can know the year by simply the night and day is that the year is the interval between either longest day/shortest night or shortest day/longest night. These are the solstices. On the other hand, with the equinoxes you would only get half a year.

Peace,

Ayman

noshirk

Salaam brother ayman

Peace Noshirk,

The term "qadr" is never used in the great reading in reference to the sun or the equinoxes. When it comes to timing, it is ONLY used in relation to the moon and specifically the ful-moon as I mentioned above to Pazuzu.

7320 Your Lord knows that you rise a little less than two thirds of the night, and half of it, and one third of it; and a group of those who are with you. And God measures (YOUQADDIROU) the night and the day. ....

The day where night and day are of equal measure is an equinoxe day.

here are the verses where qadr is used15-21,15-60,22-74,23-18,25-2,34-18,41-10,42-27,43-11,54-12,54-49,65-3,73-20,76-16,77-22,77-23

Not sure where you got the year 617 from. Also, I think that contextually the events in 301-2 are reversed due to vocalization distortion.

see here from all links http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604822.0

Why would the believers by happy with the victory of the trinitarian Romans??

see here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604929.0

Islam raised in arab peninsula between roman empire at left and persian empire at right
islam beneficiate from the war between roman an persian empire. When the front line between moved to irak, arabian peninsula was freed for first muslim. It is in this front line from where Khalid Ibn Walid began his conquest from 632.

Hope you don't believe that jesus is issa. If you don't accept that, perhaps you can accept that nassara are persians and that for quran, romans as all actuals christians are simply jewish sect.

Also, according to the Romans manuscripta the Arabs started raiding them in 620-621CE. At this time, according to traditions, the prophet didn't even immigrate yet!

according to traditions is not a serious argument dear ayman.
Hijra occured before quran revelation since quran speaks about it.

Dear ayman,
i can add something more amazing.
read carefully verses 33-50 to 33-52
After 617; Muhammad took no more wifes. Tradition written by persians is , of course, not agree.

The god clearly tells us in 1712 that we know the year by the day and night. The only way that you can know the year by simply the night and day is that the year is the interval between either longest day/shortest night or shortest day/longest night. These are the solstices. On the other hand, with the equinoxes you would only get half a year.

Peace,

Ayman

you need a precise clock for that.

Now look at the polar star and open your arms and turn your head to the east. When sun rise exactly at the east showed by your arm, it is the equinox day.

http//www.nativeweb.org/pages/pyramids/DZsun.jpg
sample 1 of equinox sunrise http//www.nativeweb.org/pages/pyramids/dzibilchaltun.html

http//cambodianpridetours.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/the-sun-rise-on-top-of-the-middle-tower-at-angkor-temple.jpg?w=470
sample 2 of equinox sunrise http//cambodianpridetours.wordpress.com/2012/07/29/equinox-over-angkor-wat/

http//media-cache-ec4.pinterest.com/192x/28/9d/1b/289d1b41e1663743e50111c5b8c7c5b9.jpg
sample 3 og equinix sunrise. Cannot be more easy to determine. Only three stones oriented to north needed.

Hope you noticed that jewish succot feast is in the full moon after autum equinox.
Look also to persian calendar.
Peace

ayman

Peace brother noshirk,

7320 Your Lord knows that you rise a little less than two thirds of the night, and half of it, and one third of it; and a group of those who are with you. And God measures (YOUQADDIROU) the night and the day. ....
The day where night and day are of equal measure is an equinoxe day.
here are the verses where qadr is used15-21,15-60,22-74,23-18,25-2,34-18,41-10,42-27,43-11,54-12,54-49,65-3,73-20,76-16,77-22,77-23

In none of those verses qadr means "equal". It means measure. The terms measure and equal are not the same. Even 7320 confirms this, 2/3, 1/2, 1/3 of night has no equality relation with day.

see here from all links http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604822.0
see here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604929.0
Islam raised in arab peninsula between roman empire at left and persian empire at right
islam beneficiate from the war between roman an persian empire. When the front line between moved to irak, arabian peninsula was freed for first muslim. It is in this front line from where Khalid Ibn Walid began his conquest from 632.
Hope you don't believe that jesus is issa. If you don't accept that, perhaps you can accept that nassara are persians and that for quran, romans as all actuals christians are simply jewish sect.

Nasara are not Trinitarians. The great reading mentions that Trinitarians are rejecters while in 930 Nasara claim that Jesus is the (human) son of the god (he be exalted). This fits the Nestorians , who by the way were in Norhtern Arabia.

according to traditions is not a serious argument dear ayman.
Hijra occured before quran revelation since quran speaks about it.

It only shows that the traditional dates are messed up and pushed forward since traditional hearsay history says that the Arabs started invading the Romans in 632 but the Roman manuscripts say 621. Also, Abraha invasion of Arabia happened in 552 according to his inscrption but the Arab hearsay from 200 years later say it was 575. So we have here a pattern of Arab history being pushed forward. It seems like the Quran is older than we think (10-25 years older) and thus revelation started sooner.

Dear ayman,
i can add something more amazing.
read carefully verses 33-50 to 33-52
After 617; Muhammad took no more wifes. Tradition written by persians is , of course, not agree.

We don't know what year Mohamed was born or when he died or when he received revelation. Certainly, the year when he was marrying or not marrying is far less certain than those bigger events.

you need a precise clock for that.

No, you only need to observe the shadow. This is why all ancient people easily knew the solstices.

Now look at the polar star and open your arms and turn your head to the east. When sun rise exactly at the east showed by your arm, it is the equinox day.

The polar star has nothing to do with day or night or what you said above about the measure being equal. Also, no matter what, there will ALWAYS be 2 equinoxes that are exactlt alike in terms od day and night and thus you can only count half a year.

Hope you noticed that jewish succot feast is in the full moon after autum equinox.
Look also to persian calendar.

Please see the full name of Succot. It is called Hagg Succot. So this is the timing for "hagg"/feast not the fast. The Hagg Succot perfectly coincides with the fourth inviolable full-moon, which is the last full-moon for the "hagg"/feast.

Peace,

Ayman

noshirk

Salaam Brother Ayman
i learned very much while reading your articles. God Bless you.

However, i am not at at all agree with your understanding of What is laylatou el qadr and ramadhan.
You have to find a solstice + full moon night. try this http//www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/pacalc.html

Peace brother noshirk,

In none of those verses qadr means "equal". It means measure. The terms measure and equal are not the same. Even 7320 confirms this, 2/3, 1/2, 1/3 of night has no equality relation with day.

please take note i understand arabic.
i never said that qadr means equal. Just that equinox is day where length of night and length of day are of equal measure.
Now, equinox day has many properties like , for example, to be equinox day in both hemispheres in the same time.

Nasara are not Trinitarians. The great reading mentions that Trinitarians are rejecters while in 930 Nasara claim that Jesus is the (human) son of the god (he be exalted). This fits the Nestorians , who by the way were in Norhtern Arabia.

Where is the guy called Jesus in Quran ?
Nassara is pointing to Issa and Issa is not Jesus. Nassara cannot be Nestorians or any christians sect related to the called Jesus.

It only shows that the traditional dates are messed up and pushed forward since traditional hearsay history says that the Arabs started invading the Romans in 632 but the Roman manuscripts say 621. Also, Abraha invasion of Arabia happened in 552 according to his inscrption but the Arab hearsay from 200 years later say it was 575. So we have here a pattern of Arab history being pushed forward. It seems like the Quran is older than we think (10-25 years older) and thus revelation started sooner.

We don't know what year Mohamed was born or when he died or when he received revelation. Certainly, the year when he was marrying or not marrying is far less certain than those bigger events.

First, we cannot use history of Abraha for any Muhammad event datation. it is not even proven that Abraha is referred indirectly in Quran. Even if it was so, All we know is that it happened before Quran was revealed. All links to Muhammas events of life are made throught hearsays.

Now, 617 datation is base on two incontestable facts

30-1 and 30-2 and change of curse of victories from persians victories to romans victories during their war from 602 to 628. ( http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine-Sassanid_War_of_602-62. That is an international fact.
The huge concidence equinox + Full moon + Moon at perigee the 20 september 617.

On the other hands, in don't know from where you get roman manuscripts speaking about arab invasion near 621. But 621 is always 4 years after 617 and then is in a period where Hijra has already occured according to 617 theory. So Muslim with Muhammad at their head were there at 621.
(Please note that with quran you cannot proove that Muhammad make war to quraich people. Idolaters can be what you want, even romans or nassara 3-80).

We know also from history that a muslim army arrived in Jesuralem around 636 and 638. That is an international fact.

There is a very important decision you have to take, brother ayman. Was Quran revealed one shot or gradually ?
I decided for my self that it was one shot. In a night where laylatou el qadr was also a full moon night.
Muhammad received Quran in one night and preached with it after that without using his own hadiths. He just teached Quran.

No, you only need to observe the shadow. This is why all ancient people easily knew the solstices.
The polar star has nothing to do with day or night or what you said above about the measure being equal

Here we are in the science field. Equinox day is at least as easy to determine as solistice.

. Also, no matter what, there will ALWAYS be 2 equinoxes that are exactlt alike in terms od day and night and thus you can only count half a year.

this is not an argument.
people knew that and can use either automn or spring equinox as reference. That was what persians (nassara for me) did and also what jews did.
Now, your solstice datation is based on Ramadhan word meaning.
Me too

.

That's autum and not summer.

Please see the full name of Succot. It is called Hagg Succot. So this is the timing for "hagg"/feast not the fast. The Hagg Succot perfectly coincides with the fourth inviolable full-moon, which is the last full-moon for the "hagg"/feast.

it is all conjectures.
You cannot proove that period of saoum is not also a period of Hajj (please note that who make only Omra during Hajj have to make saoum).
You cannot proove that Ashor Haram are consecutives.
You cannot prove that saoum is fasting from something else than speaking to humans (please note i don't know what you mean by word fast).
You don't know how many Hajj a muslim should do in his life (the only indication you have is comaraison between torah and quran relative to Moses period of working with his stepfather).

Succot can be either period of Hajj and Saoum. Who make Hajj has not to do saoum.
Please note that is seems that succot is linked to agriculture and first rains (i am not sure. Need help). Exact meaning of ramadhiyou.

People of Quran, People of Torah (Jews and christians), People of Injeel (zoroasters and derivate hindouism) should have similarites.
Consecutive ashor haram is a kind of rejection of old scriptures and has no solid quranic basis.

Peace

ayman

Peace bro noshirk,

Salaam Brother Ayman
i learned very much while reading your articles. God Bless you.
However, i am not at at all agree with your understanding of What is laylatou el qadr and ramadhan.
You have to find a solstice + full moon night. try this http//www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/pacalc.html

Thank you and god bless you for trying to improve our understanding. However, this is a misunderstanding of my article on your part. I am talking about the full-moon AFTER the summer solstice. Of course, this certainly happens every year.

please take note i understand arabic.

Then I would suggest that you read the Arabic version here

www.quran4peace.org

i never said that qadr means equal. Just that equinox is day where length of night and length of day are of equal measure.
Now, equinox day has many properties like , for example, to be equinox day in both hemispheres in the same time.

Since you know that measure doesn't mean equal then the equinox (equal) theory is not even remotely supported by the great reading.

Where is the guy called Jesus in Quran ?
Nassara is pointing to Issa and Issa is not Jesus. Nassara cannot be Nestorians or any christians sect related to the called Jesus.

This is a different subject.

First, we cannot use history of Abraha for any Muhammad event datation. it is not even proven that Abraha is referred indirectly in Quran. Even if it was so, All we know is that it happened before Quran was revealed. All links to Muhammas events of life are made throught hearsays.
Now, 617 datation is base on two incontestable facts

30-1 and 30-2 and change of curse of victories from persians victories to romans victories during their war from 602 to 628. ( http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine-Sassanid_War_of_602-62. That is an international fact.
The huge concidence equinox + Full moon + Moon at perigee the 20 september 617.
On the other hands, in don't know from where you get roman manuscripts speaking about arab invasion near 621. But 621 is always 4 years after 617 and then is in a period where Hijra has already occured according to 617 theory. So Muslim with Muhammad at their head were there at 621.
(Please note that with quran you cannot proove that Muhammad make war to quraich people. Idolaters can be what you want, even romans or nassara 3-80).
We know also from history that a muslim army arrived in Jesuralem around 636 and 638. That is an international fact.

Abraha has nothing to do with the Quran and neither is your 617 dating. The point I was trying to make is that the whole Islamic chronology is messed up. So we can't base anything on it.

There is a very important decision you have to take, brother ayman. Was Quran revealed one shot or gradually ?
I decided for my self that it was one shot. In a night where laylatou el qadr was also a full moon night.
Muhammad received Quran in one night and preached with it after that without using his own hadiths. He just teached Quran.

It was done in 2 stages INZAL then TANZIL. INZAL was one time a year while TANZIL was done gradually on the heart of the prophet.

Here we are in the science field. Equinox day is at least as easy to determine as solistice.

It is not about which is easier to determine. It is about which one can be used to count years using the day and night as per the quran. It is impossible to use the equinox as a marker to count years since there are 2 equinoxes where the day and night are exactly the same and so this would give you half a year and not a year.

this is not an argument.
people knew that and can use either automn or spring equinox as reference. That was what persians (nassara for me) did and also what jews did.

The quran ONLY gives ?day and night? as the way of counting the years. It doesn?t give any other factor. For example, the Jews use the harvest of barley to differentiate and select the autumn equinox as a reference. Again, it is an indisputable fact that the SINGLE way you can use ONLY the day and night to count the number of years (not half years) is if you use one of the solstices.

Now, your solstice datation is based on Ramadhan word meaning.
Me too

.

That's autum and not summer.

This is not the meaning of ?ramadan?, which simply means hot/scorching. What you are presenting is the meaning when associated to clouds and rain. 2185 is not talking about ?hot clouds? or ?hot rain?, it is talking about the hot/scorching full-moon. This clearly best fits the first full-moon AFTER the summer solstice.

it is all conjectures.
You cannot proove that period of saoum is not also a period of Hajj (please note that who make only Omra during Hajj have to make saoum).
You cannot proove that Ashor Haram are consecutives.
You cannot prove that saoum is fasting from something else than speaking to humans (please note i don't know what you mean by word fast).
You don't know how many Hajj a muslim should do in his life (the only indication you have is comaraison between torah and quran relative to Moses period of working with his stepfather).
Succot can be either period of Hajj and Saoum. Who make Hajj has not to do saoum.
Please note that is seems that succot is linked to agriculture and first rains (i am not sure. Need help). Exact meaning of ramadhiyou.

Exactly, Hagg Succot is a harvest feast just like the hagg talked about in the great reading. It is not a fast.

Please see 95, which clearly proves that the inviolable full-moons are consecutive.

People of Quran, People of Torah (Jews and christians), People of Injeel (zoroasters and derivate hindouism) should have similarites.
Consecutive ashor haram is a kind of rejection of old scriptures and has no solid quranic basis.

In most places in the world and according to science, hunting is best restricted in the summer and resumes in the fall. So this further confirms the marker being the first full-moon after the summer solstice.

Peace,

Ayman

noshirk

Salaam Brother Ayman
Before All, i want to tell that your articles changed completely my way of thinking and specially the "What's in the name" one.
I accepted many of your understandings (Jinns/fantasy/imagination, Hajj/feast, salat/connection, Hijri calender rejection and so on). But the most important concept i found is the Tartil/arrangment concept who is for me the key of understanding Quran.
I will be always grateful to you.

However, don't take it bad, you are not my Rabb and we are both students of the great teacher (rabb). That mean that i have the pretention to claim that i can sometimes not be agree with some of your understandings without misunderstanding you.

For example, i will respond here to you last other post. Your interpretation of Expression "Batni Mekkati" holded, for a while, for me, the status of best available undertsanding.
But now, i think i found a better one. Batni is related to eating and mean venter. Batni consume food from God, extract energy and transform the remaining in something Bad. Batni is quite the opposite of the feminine womb/rahm who transform the food of god in a living thing.
When you see meaning of word Makka you can find something like this
( &#1576
.

that meaning of Mecca is clear continuation of eating concept. Mecca is aspiring/sucking something until it ends.
Expression of "Batni Mekkata" can then be simply understood as Hell. It aspires Mixers of Quran in an "eating" of words of God that produces nothing.
With that understanding, 48-24 is not speaking at all about a battle. it is speaking about separation of destiny of Mo'omini returning to the orginal Rahm (rahman and rahim) from mushrikins aspired in "simply" destroyning venter.
it is interesting to read the entire sourate 48 with the idea that Fath mean heart conquest and not mecca conquest.

Thank you and god bless you for trying to improve our understanding. However, this is a misunderstanding of my article on your part. I am talking about the full-moon AFTER the summer solstice. Of course, this certainly happens every year.

i understood that very well and accepted it partially. i think now that shahr ramadhan is the full moon "AFTER" the autumn equinox.
But the night where quran was revealed, it was both Full moon and Laylatou el Qadr. That is clear in quran and is, for me, an astronomical indication from our Teacher.
I found a perfectly fitting full moon/autum equinox in wich there is in addition the bonus of the supermoon night. The night of full moon the month after, there was a lunar eclipse (inchiqaq qamar ???).
Is that all coincidences or just confirmation of understanding that Laylatou el Qadr is equinox ?

It was done in 2 stages INZAL then TANZIL. INZAL was one time a year while TANZIL was done gradually on the heart of the prophet.

please can you give me more hojjaj about this point ?.

Please see 95, which clearly proves that the inviolable full-moons are consecutive.

Absolutely not convincing.
i accepted your concept of Zakat and Shahr. But it seems that concept of consecutive ashor is something that is not zakkified yet from your old beliefs that shahr means month. What have we to do between the 4 consecutive full moons ?

Let me now add some new arguments on the theory that period of Hajj is SUCCOT feast.
here is the last post of brother Hawk99

003.096
YUSUFALI The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka Full of blessing and
of guidance for all kinds of beings

The Valley of Baca " Baca, Correctly spelled from the Hebrew as "Baka" or " The Valley of Baka "

Now according to your commenters The Valley of Baka is located in Palestine, but Psalms 84 gives
specific ID on the geographical location.

Psalm 84
1 How amiable are thy tabernacles, O LORD of hosts!
2 My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of the LORD my heart and my flesh crieth
out for the living God.
3 Yea, the sparrow hath found an house, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may lay
her young, even thine altars, O LORD of hosts, my King, and my God.
4 Blessed are they that dwell in thy house they will be still praising thee. Selah.(S-L-H)
5 Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them.
6 Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools. (Zamzam)
7 They go from strength to strength, every one of them in Zion appeareth before God.
8 O LORD God of hosts, hear my prayer give ear, O God of Jacob. Selah.
9 Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed.
10 For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house
of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness.
11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield the LORD will give grace and glory no good thing will
he withhold from them that walk uprightly.
12 O LORD of hosts, blessed is the man that trusteth in thee.

BAKA

This Place is a Valley
In this Valley there is a blessed Well
To this Valley pilgrims make their journey
There is a Sacred House of Worship in this Valley of Baka
This Place of worship where the sacred house is at there are COURT YARDS
There are alters
Sparows and Swallows Lodge at this location and bare their young

There is no place in Palestine that fits this discription.

ONE GOD

really interesting.
Book of pslams seems to be what remains from not scelled (makhtoum) "ZABUR OF DAOUD" our teacher mentionned in Quran.

BACCA in Quran is clearly related to Hajj (by Abraham).
In the "Zabur of Daoud ?", we found it related to feast of tabernacles(other name of Succot feast) in a "raining" context.

In addition, like for word Mecca, it is possible that Bacca is not a name of place.
i saw that many traductions of psalm 84 traduce word Bacca in valley of "crying". But Boukaa is not the only understanding of Bakka.
it is very funny to notice this linguistic explanation of why Mecca is Bacca

(of course, i don't believe that temple of goddess of fertility is Masjid haram).
So BACCA can simply means a crowded place and Bacca of Muhammad can be not the Bacca of Abraham.
In fact, my actual understanding is that Bacca is quite the same meaning as Ommu el Qura.

2859 And your Lord was not to destroy the towns until He sends a messenger to their capital (in the mother OF THAT qura), to recite Our revelations to them. And We do not destroy the towns unless its people are wicked.

So, building a Masjid Haram in a mother of Qura of a region seems to be a "to do task" from some Messengers.
Of course, a Masjid Haram is more "practical" in a crowded place. Only "fools" can believe that a teacher ask to build university in a desert behind a Hijaz.

Please brother ayman, dont take my posts as polemical ones. If other Arbabs were allowed in islam, i would have choosen you and brother Pazuzu as teachers.
But both of you are doing mistakes as certainly i do.

Peace

simonejamilla

Peace be with you.
Could someone please let me know when Ramadhan will start this year.
Thanks
sun