Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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peace brother Ayman, all,
I finally read your article.
Firstly, thanks for sharing your research, it is appreciated.
With regard to the timing discussion, I agreed with many, not all, points in your article, as it is quite a lot to digest. I'd need to think over it some more. One question that came to my mind about your understanding was the following
2185 says whoever witnessed the shahr/full-moon should abstain it
---> you take this to mean a number of days 3-10 (if I have understood you correctly)2217 asks about the inviolable shahr/full-moon is there fighting in it
---> how long a time do you take this as?IF there is any discrepancy between the two parts in red - can you clarify/explain why, thanks.
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Peace brother Wakas.
2185 says whoever witnessed the shahr/full-moon should abstain it
---> you take this to mean a number of days 3-10 (if I have understood you correctly)As far as I know brother Ayman refers this back to 2183 http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg220451;topicseen#msg220451
2217 asks about the inviolable shahr/full-moon is there fighting in it
---> how long a time do you take this as?Here we have the preposition "fi", which we do not have in 2185. Therefore I think it denotes the period delimited by those four full-moons and this is period of 3 months.
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peace brother Timur,
Thanks, I was unaware of the alternative "hu" reference. It seems theoretically possible.
In 2217 inviolable shahr is singular so to me "in it/full-moon" doesn't sound ideal. I will see what bro Ayman has to say.
As a side note, I read most of this thread today. I should have made a list of the key points I wanted to highlight but it was quite a laborious task reading all of it as it was. In any case, a few thoughts from memory
We can all (or most) agree that the traditional present-day timing system would be very difficult (perhaps impossible) to prove as per Quran.
It would have been much better if those opposed to Ayman's view presented a couple of their strongest points in a clear and concise manner - this may have prevented the thread being so long. Some did get better at doing this however.
There were a few interesting/reasonable arguments against, but most of these were clarified - thus, the original article really needs an up to date write-up to reflect this.
There was some discussion about days of abstinence being 3-10, and one thing that came to my mind is that perhaps a fixed number is not given because not everyone will witness the start/end points the same. "10 complete" in 2196 (if it is related) may be indicating that since there is no fixed number, 10 may have been the average hence it is reassuring the reader/believer that 10 is complete for them.
truthseeker171 thinks it meant 3 but one would think if it was 3 why doesn't Quran just say 3. Also, one can have witnessed the full-moon but only have one day left of it to abstain, thus I think of the options, this seems the weaker one.
There was another issue brought up by Nun/Pseudo about the weaning+bearing = 30 shahr. Even though possible explanations were given, each Nun and Ayman had their own, there seems to be another option I did some cross-reference and it seems the bearing is referring to carrying the burden, so it likely at least refers to when a bump is visible, and this about 2-4 months for most.
There were some aspects not discussed much - at least I don't think they were, e.g. how the ahilat fit into the hajj timing 2189, the issue I raised with 91-5 (see here). I also think the finding related to "al masjid al haram" may help clarify things.
Overall, I'm not entirely convinced by the full-moon theory but it does seem to be the strongest option so far. It will be much better if an updated write-up is done. It is possible it can be fine-tuned further.
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Peace all.
Wakas I would be interested to read your theory on Shahr Ramadan, if you would be so kind as to comment on what you have so far, I would really appreciate it. -
peace SD,
I haven't studied the timing, or terms, in much detail, so I don't have any strong view at the moment.
Overall, I'm not entirely convinced by the full-moon theory but it does seem to be the strongest option so far. It will be much better if an updated write-up is done. It is possible it can be fine-tuned further.
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Peace Wakas.
Thank you. I look forward to your views. -
In the middle east the moon appears more dramatic due to the dusty atmosphere of the desert which refracts the moon light even more and gives it more red appearance. The Arabs must have been fascinated by this red hot moon that signals the hot time of the year and this is why they called it the scorching full moon/"shahr ramadan". Please post pictures if you can. You can use websites such as http//tinypic.com/ to upload the pics and share the links here.
Peace and best wishes,
Ayman
salam,
Excuse me for my English
When I read the work of Dr. AYMAN, I ask the question of the exact date of the fasting period, despite are explanation I assumed "layl qadr" was refers to the Equinox of September and not to the summer solstice, but reading the verse 10/5 my open mind on something else.
Being that give ?manazil? means a backward step, as for the moon with one as starting with a full moon, why the Sun which is also involved in this verse would not also this specificity?
But how to measure it, since there is no system of Crescent?
It remains more than his race in the sky which allows to determine these backward steps "manazil.
so to respect the principle of ?manazil? we measure it in are the highest step to start the calculation.
still us more than the solstice the Sun highest summer before descending.
Another verse States that persons who complete the "hajj" can once again hunt. This implies that they come out of the 4 moons restrictive and that the last restricted Moon is linked to the "hajj" and not to the young.
When do you think?
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peace all,
Perhaps we can also consider
Classical Arabic usage clearly gives us the meaning of "shahr" as moon (in all its phases it seems) and month. The meaning of month is inextricably linked to moon.
Thus, does "shahr" simply mean "moon", and we must use logic/context to determine when it means "moon" and when it means "month" in Quran?
From my studies, use of logic/context to determine which meaning is meant is relatively common in Quran.Just a thought.
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When I read the work of Dr. AYMAN, I ask the question of the exact date of the fasting period, despite are explanation I assumed "layl qadr" was refers to the Equinox of September and not to the summer solstice, but reading the verse 10/5 my open mind on something else.
Peace Bachton..
I also debated this question for a very long time. This question of whether the fasting time begins with the Equinox of September or the Solstice of June. After many months of pondering, I have come to accept the Solstice theory (around June 21-23) as the most viable one. Let me explain to you why, very briefly
The word "Ramadhan" means the time/condition of heat, while "shahr" means "that which is the clear mark or announcement of something". The Arabs used to call the moon "shahr" when it became fat and neared fullness (because it became clear and apparent). Hence, "Shahr Ramadan" is that moon which annouces / makes clear the period of heat.
The reason why September was fitted into the equation is because the term "Ramdhiyy" was given to the rain when it fell upon the hot ground. They assumed that because we have rain mixing with hot earth, this must mean that we are in autumn. But this is only from the point of view of those who live in climates where the rain season happens to start in September. But this is not so in many areas of the world. For example, in Saudi Arabia, the rainy season is during March/April. That marks the end of the cold season there. It never rains there in September. (Those members who live in Saudi Arabia can confirm this). In many parts of Europe and North America, the rainy season is in summer, where the most savage of thunderstorms and torrential rain can be witnessed in June or July, when the earth is hot from the summer. So their Ramdhiyy comes in June.
As you can see, inserting rain into the picture will only serve to confuse matters. Simply stick to the original meaning of the root "Ra-Mim-Dad", which means "HEAT". And what better marker (shahr) we have to announce the begining of the heat season than the full moon of the summer Solstice, when the moon is exceptionally large over the horizon, and assumes a distinct orange hue?
Isn't this better than blindly following Sistani or the Mufti of Saudi Arabia, or Hassan Fadhlallah, and the other so-called "marja3s", who resort to their esoteric "calculations" and often reach contradicting results for no better reason than to spite each other and increase the sectarian division among their followers, to achieve their own worldly ends?
Now since the moon is measured in descending stages ("manazil", until it assumes the appearence of a thin, curved sheath, this means that if you count 10 days from the occurence of the super full moon of the Solstice, you arrive at the "hilal" (crescent), which marks the end of your fast.
So far, I think this is the most logical and convincing formula put forth.
Another verse States that persons who complete the "hajj" can once again hunt. This implies that they come out of the 4 moons restrictive and that the last restricted Moon is linked to the "hajj" and not to the young.
When do you think?
Yes, there is clearly a period of restirction from hunting, which the Quran states is 4 "ashhur". Even if we translate this as 4 months, it would still contradict the mockery being practiced today in Makkah, where they put on their so-called "Ihram Dress" and abstain for a mere 4 or 5 days while they are conducting their rituals. Is this really the "ihram" mentioned in the Quran?
Although I am certain that Ramadhan comes in summer, I am inclined to believe - for now - that the period of Hajj may be the spring months which end immediately before Ramadan. Hence late February until the Solstice of June is the period when hunting game is prohibitted.
Thanks for your input.
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Salam Wakas ,
In my understanding the answer to your below question
Thus, does "shahr" simply mean "moon", and we must use logic/context to determine when it means "moon" and when it means "month" in Quran?
From my studies, use of logic/context to determine which meaning is meant is relatively common in Quran.
Just a though
lies on your same post in first statement below
The meaning of month is inextricably linked to moon.
Salam Pazuzu ,
The word "Ramadhan" means the time/condition of heat.
I believe too that rmdh is to indicate a seasonal period , but i personally do not see that is about the period of maximum heat , the word ramdhaan is following too the pattern fa3lan explained below
Salam Dear All ,
Some Arabic linguistic illustration from The Qur'an
Difference between Al-Rahman & Al-Rahim
Al-Rahman is under the pattern Fa3lan
Al-Rahim is under the pattern Fa3ilThe Pattern Fa3lan indicate
- Incidence ( )
- Regeneration ( )
- Fullness ( )
- Reaching the Maximum of the description ( )
Ex Ghadban / Angry , Mean he was full of anger , the anger regenerate that it reach its maximum .
Mean that the rmdh has accrued and expended to reach it's maximum , then the rmdh will finish after reaching the stage of its fullness . So yes the term shahr Ramadan is pointing to the period where the rmdh has reached its maximum.
This thread theory believe that Ramadhan is the scorching heat period , i personally don't think so and i will inshaA allaah try to prove that from the Quran and connected to other evidence .
The whole theory of the period of Ramadan and the concept and nature and the length of the fast is not consistent according to this thread and need major reviewing so we come inchaA allaah to the better understanding , with respect to the sincere effort ,study and research of who contributed to uncover the veils about this topic , and may allaah reward them for their sincere effort and guide us all to what is nearer to this in comprehension .
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Salam Wakas ,
In my understanding the answer to your below question
lies on your same post in first statement below
Salam Pazuzu ,
I believe too that rmdh is to indicate a seasonal period , but i personally do not see that is about the period of maximum heat , the word ramdhaan is following too the pattern fa3lan explained below
Mean that the rmdh has accrued and expended to reach it's maximum , then the rmdh will finish after reaching the stage of its fullness . So yes the term shahr Ramadan is pointing to the period where the rmdh has reached its maximum.
This thread theory believe that Ramadhan is the scorching heat period , i personally don't think so and i will inshaA allaah try to prove that from the Quran and connected to other evidence .
The whole theory of the period of Ramadan and the concept and nature and the length of the fast is not consistent according to this thread and need major reviewing so we come inchaA allaah to the better understanding , with respect to the sincere effort ,study and research of who contributed to uncover the veils about this topic , and may allaah reward them for their sincere effort and guide us all to what is nearer to this in comprehension .
peace,
HelloSorry for my English
Verse 10/5 uses "manazil' for the Moon and the Sun, so if ?manazil? is a backward step, this explains clearly that for the Moon that begins with the full moon as the stress Dr. Ayman, but also to the Sun and it cannot start with the summer solstice since (c) its highest point in a year.
So when verse 10/5 use them term following 'Sun and Moon', why link only the Moon and not the Sun which is also measured in backward step.
Which confirms the theory of Dr. Ayman in explaining that the year begins with the summer solstice.
What do you think.
do you speack french??????
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peace,
So when verse 10/5 use them term following 'Sun and Moon', why link only the Moon and not the Sun which is also measured in backward step.
See
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=10&verse=5#(1051)Huwa allathee jaAAala alshshamsa diyaan wa alqamara nooran waqaddarahu manazila...
red = feminine
blue = masculine
hu = masculine singular"...qaddara/determined hu/it manazila/phases..."
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peace,
HelloSorry for my English
Verse 10/5 uses "manazil' for the Moon and the Sun, so if ?manazil? is a backward step, this explains clearly that for the Moon that begins with the full moon as the stress Dr. Ayman, but also to the Sun and it cannot start with the summer solstice since (c) its highest point in a year.
So when verse 10/5 use them term following 'Sun and Moon', why link only the Moon and not the Sun which is also measured in backward step.
Which confirms the theory of Dr. Ayman in explaining that the year begins with the summer solstice.
What do you think.
do you speack french??????
salam bachton ,
the word " manazil / stages or phases " is only used for the moon in the verse 105
105 ( It is He who made the sun a shining light and the moon a derived light and determined for it stages - that you may know the number of years and account . Allah has not created this except in truth. He details the signs for a people who know)
http//imageshack.us/a/img593/5567/dzi0.jpg
The sun and the moon are a one united mechanism , but the sun it self in its orbits is not mentioned in the quran to be a tool to determine years and counts , the tool for this is the moon only using indirectly the reflected light of the sun at dark ( night ) ( they are one unified mechanism , but we use only the moon to witness the years and the count )
As for 127
- 17 - 12
1712 (And We have made the night and day two signs, and We erased the sign of the night and made the sign of the day visible that you may seek bounty from your Lord and may know the number of years and the account . And everything We have set out in detail.)
This verse is mentioning that allaah has mad the sign of the day/light visible because if the sign of the day wasn't visible you could not distinguish between day/light and the night so you cant make any count because you can't know the concept of one full day ( night + daylight) ...with no light visible mobasser , to distinguish between night and day there would be no way to count ...imagine the day is all night with no daylight you will make no difference as how many days passed and how many left , you see the point ? the daylight role from the sun is to distinguish between night and daylight so we can distinguish between days so we can count , you can count by that system only without the moon but you'll never know exactly when the year has finished , also it's very hard and useless that someone use the tool of the day to count 60 days or 40 nights , the easiest and the tool designed for that is the Moon by its stages , also the count of the years is practical through the count of the numbers of months ( full moon to the next full moon ) , and the qur'an told us that they are twelve 12 .
This verse is not pointing at all that we should use the sun as a tool to know the count and the years , but the sun itself is indirectly used by the swap of night and daylight . so the only tool to be used for the count and the years is the moon stages , the sun is already withing that mechanism
http//imageshack.us/a/img23/1248/r9l.gif
Moon stages to be used to determin number of days so number of months number of year...withouth the sun it would be impoosible to distinguish between naight and daylight so the count become impossible as it will be a expended monotone state "sardmad "
- 28 - 71
2871 ( Say, "Have you considered if Allah should make for you the night continuous until the Day of Resurrection, what other than Allah could bring you light ( diaA )? Then will you not hear?"
The light (diaA ) from the sun is used to distinguish between night and daylight so we can start to count using the moon , without the light of the sun the tool of the moon is useless because the moon is in need of the light ( diaA ) to be visible , it's the Sun who make the moon mechanism visible so can used it for the counting , so the sun is indirectly used in the mechanism of the moon and that is what was meant in 1712 . notice that is the DiaA which is used in 105 not the sun as it's pointing to the light itself , it is pointing to the concept of making things visible and distinguishable
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do you speack french??????
sorry ! yes i speak french ! do you ?
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http//imageshack.us/a/img23/1248/r9l.gif
The numbers that are identifying moon stages is wrong in that particular picture as the first day is the full moon stage n?17 in the picture and it goes on
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salam bachton ,
the word " manazil / stages or phases " is only used for the moon in the verse 105
105 ( It is He who made the sun a shining light and the moon a derived light and determined for it stages - that you may know the number of years and account . Allah has not created this except in truth. He details the signs for a people who know)
salam wakas,
10.5. Huwa allathee jaAAala alshshamsa diyaan waalqamara nooran waqaddarahu manazila .......diyaan = masculin
nooran = masculin
hu= masculin
In the end this is neither the Moon nor the Sun which is used to measure, but the light that they emit (Sun) or reflected (Moon), such as the phases of the Moon the Moon and as the light of day for the Sun, therefore the 'hu' male tells us about the male 'light'?translate in french
Au final ce n?est ni la lune ni le soleil qui sert ? la mesure, mais la lumi?re qu?ils ?mettent (soleil) ou refl?t(lune), comme celle des phases lunaire pour la lune et comme la lumi?re du jour pour le soleil, donc le ? hu ? masculin nous parle de la ? lumi?re ?masculin ???http//imageshack.us/a/img593/5567/dzi0.jpg
The sun and the moon are a one united mechanism , but the sun it self in its orbits is not mentioned in the quran to be a tool to determine years and counts , the tool for this is the moon only using indirectly the reflected light of the sun at dark ( night ) ( they are one unified mechanism , but we use only the moon to witness the years and the count )
As for 127
- 17 - 12
1712 (And We have made the night and day two signs, and We erased the sign of the night and made the sign of the day visible that you may seek bounty from your Lord and may know the number of years and the account . And everything We have set out in detail.)
This verse is mentioning that allaah has mad the sign of the day/light visible because if the sign of the day wasn't visible you could not distinguish between day/light and the night so you cant make any count because you can't know the concept of one full day ( night + daylight) ...with no light visible mobasser , to distinguish between night and day there would be no way to count ...imagine the day is all night with no daylight you will make no difference as how many days passed and how many left , you see the point ? the daylight role from the sun is to distinguish between night and daylight so we can distinguish between days so we can count , you can count by that system only without the moon but you'll never know exactly when the year has finished , also it's very hard and useless that someone use the tool of the day to count 60 days or 40 nights , the easiest and the tool designed for that is the Moon by its stages , also the count of the years is practical through the count of the numbers of months ( full moon to the next full moon ) , and the qur'an told us that they are twelve 12 .
This verse is not pointing at all that we should use the sun as a tool to know the count and the years , but the sun itself is indirectly used by the swap of night and daylight . so the only tool to be used for the count and the years is the moon stages , the sun is already withing that mechanism
http//imageshack.us/a/img23/1248/r9l.gif
Moon stages to be used to determin number of days so number of months number of year...withouth the sun it would be impoosible to distinguish between naight and daylight so the count become impossible as it will be a expended monotone state "sardmad "
- 28 - 71
2871 ( Say, "Have you considered if Allah should make for you the night continuous until the Day of Resurrection, what other than Allah could bring you light ( diaA )? Then will you not hear?"
The light (diaA ) from the sun is used to distinguish between night and daylight so we can start to count using the moon , without the light of the sun the tool of the moon is useless because the moon is in need of the light ( diaA ) to be visible , it's the Sun who make the moon mechanism visible so can used it for the counting , so the sun is indirectly used in the mechanism of the moon and that is what was meant in 1712 . notice that is the DiaA which is used in 105 not the sun as it's pointing to the light itself , it is pointing to the concept of making things visible and distinguishable
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Peace Alkitab,
This verse is mentioning that allaah has mad the sign of the day/light visible because if the sign of the day wasn't visible you could not distinguish between day/light and the night so you cant make any count because you can't know the concept of one full day ( night + daylight)
Why count days at all? 1712 mentions years (sineen) not days (ayyaam)! Hence the change of day (nahar) and night (layl) is sufficient for determining a year (sanat). This makes the year clearly solar.
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Peace Alkitab,
Why count days at all? 1712 mentions years (sineen) not days (ayyaam)! Hence the change of day (nahar) and night (layl) is sufficient for determining a year (sanat). This makes the year clearly solar.
Salam Timur ,
The verse 1712 is mentioning years ( sineen ) and (al-hissab ) mean counts or counting , to count what ? of course to count days , here are many things in the quran that needs days counting ex from the quran 3days , 7 days in 2196 . 2 days in 2203 . the known counted days in 2184 and 2203 . also we need to count days for selling and buying purpose according to 2282
2282 (O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a fixed time , write it down. And let a scribe write between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah , his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men , then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her. And let not the witnesses refuse when they are called upon. And do not be weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its time. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you, except when it is an immediate transaction which you conduct among yourselves. For there is no blame upon you if you do not write it. And take witnesses when you conclude a contract. Let no scribe be harmed or any witness. For if you do so, indeed, it is disobedience in you. And fear Allah. And Allah teaches you. And Allah is Knowing of all things. )
So we need to count days .
salam wakas,
10.5. Huwa allathee jaAAala alshshamsa diyaan waalqamara nooran waqaddarahu manazila .......diyaan = masculin
nooran = masculin
hu= masculin
In the end this is neither the Moon nor the Sun which is used to measure, but the light that they emit (Sun) or reflected (Moon), such as the phases of the Moon the Moon and as the light of day for the Sun, therefore the 'hu' male tells us about the male 'light'?translate in french
Au final ce n?est ni la lune ni le soleil qui sert ? la mesure, mais la lumi?re qu?ils ?mettent (soleil) ou refl?t(lune), comme celle des phases lunaire pour la lune et comme la lumi?re du jour pour le soleil, donc le ? hu ? masculin nous parle de la ? lumi?re ?masculin ???Salam bachton ,
You can consider it that way if you want as it's true too , but when you are witnessing the moon at night during its stages can you make difference between the light of the moon and the moon itself ? the light , the sun and the moon is a one mechanisme
Vous pouvez envisager de cette fa?on , si vous voulez , c'est vrai aussi, mais quand vous ?tes t?moin de la lune dans la nuit au cours de ses ?tapes pouvez-vous faire la diff?rence entre la lumi?re de la lune et la lune elle-m?me ? la lumi?re le soliel la lune est un seul m?canisme
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The reason why September was fitted into the equation is because the term "Ramdhiyy" was given to the rain when it fell upon the hot ground. They assumed that because we have rain mixing with hot earth, this must mean that we are in autumn. But this is only from the point of view of those who live in climates where the rain season happens to start in September. But this is not so in many areas of the world. For example, in Saudi Arabia, the rainy season is during March/April. That marks the end of the cold season there. It never rains there in September. (Those members who live in Saudi Arabia can confirm this). In many parts of Europe and North America, the rainy season is in summer, where the most savage of thunderstorms and torrential rain can be witnessed in June or July, when the earth is hot from the summer. So their Ramdhiyy comes in June.
Salaam Brother
Really , i dont know why you are seeing raining in Saudi Arabia. What happened there ? o
Look here for Yemen
http//athaia.org/yemen-meteo-climat-fr.html
(rain is called pluie in french)Now, September hypothesis is based for me on these facts
- Meaning of word ramadhan as you noticed.
- Meaning of word qadr (measure) wich can be understood as perfect equilibrum between lenght day and length of night
- equinox day is equinox day il all the planet, even in north pole. Summer solistice in noth hemisphere in winter is south and there is no night in north pole.
-Based on 30-2 and history of persian/roman war, year 617 is propably the year in wich occured the layloatou el qadr in wich quran was revealed. It was both laylatou el qadr (equinox) and shahr ramadhan (full moon of ramadhan) as quran said it was revealed in both laylatou el qadr and shahr ramadhan. Night of 20 spetember 617 was night of such a concidence. Moreover , it was a night in wich moon was at perigee, wich means that it was a supermoon (the biggest moon possible in the sky). The next full moon, the one of 20 october 617, was ? night of inchiqaq qamar, that is a lunar eclipse in middle east whare moon appeared splitted in two.
and here are the proofs
http//eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/5MCLEmap/0601-0700/LE0617-10-20P.gif
and just type year 617 here
http//www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/pacalc.htmlWhat a beautiful night it was.
Peace
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Salam Pazuzu ,
I believe too that rmdh is to indicate a seasonal period , but i personally do not see that is about the period of maximum heat , the word ramdhaan is following too the pattern fa3lan explained below
Mean that the rmdh has accrued and expended to reach it's maximum , then the rmdh will finish after reaching the stage of its fullness . So yes the term shahr Ramadan is pointing to the period where the rmdh has reached its maximum.
This thread theory believe that Ramadhan is the scorching heat period , i personally don't think so and i will inshaA allaah try to prove that from the Quran and connected to other evidence .
The whole theory of the period of Ramadan and the concept and nature and the length of the fast is not consistent according to this thread and need major reviewing so we come inchaA allaah to the better understanding , with respect to the sincere effort ,study and research of who contributed to uncover the veils about this topic , and may allaah reward them for their sincere effort and guide us all to what is nearer to this in comprehension .
Peace Al-Kitab
What about superlative of ra-mim-dhad" which is "armadh" vs "ramadhan"
"Armadh" shall be "the most scorching" or "the hottest" the form similar to
akbar
asfal
asgharMay i know what is the core difference between these two form of derivative.
best n peace,
ashraf vs sharafan
