Hot/"ramadan" Answer

progod

Peace,

Peace Progod,

I have a counter question for you. The shuhoor being restricted is also from God's perspective and their count being four is God's count too.

Do you think it's right to ask a counter question (whatever that is) when you have not answered my last question? Is it okay to answer a question with a question? But alright if you are honestly trying to understand my position better, then for the sake of possible progress in this conversation I will gladly go along.

Why did God make the count of the restricted shuhoor to be four? Why not three or five?

Isn't that a question you should ask God? I mean there is no logical problem about how many restricted/sacred shuhoor God wanted to make. He said four, but He could have easily said 3 or 5. The point is that He's not ignoring anything that He created in the first place.

As you said that in 936 the count of shuhoor being 12 is from God's perspective but so are the restricted shuhoor and their count being four. Obviously, if the restricted shuhoor and them being four is meant for humans, so is the count of shuhoor in a solar year. He just wanted us to count 12 full-moons every solar year, and therefore also count only 12 when 13 full-moons occur in a solar year, so the seasons would remain synchronized with the restricted full-moons.

Ok, let's look at 936 again. It says specifically God's count of months (inna 3iddata shuhoor 3anda allaahi). The 3anda which is possessive makes the count God's. And what follows lets us know that His count has been 12 since He created the heavens (that includes the moon) and the earth. So why He would create 13 full moons in some years and not have been counting them since the day He created the moon and the earth is a puzzle to me. I don't think God would create something and then ignore it.

The second part about 4 of them being sacred for God only, that part of the passage has nothing to do with God's count anymore and God's count is the issue at hand. The passage specifically says God is counting 12 shahr. This is not about the passage being from God's perspective because just about all of the Quran is from God's perspective. The issue is that the first part of this passage is only dealing with God's action of counting 12 shahr. Remember 3iddah is an action. It is counting.

God in this verse does declare 4 of these 12 shuhoor to be hurum, and we are instructed about how to act within the hurum in other passages of the Quran. So that is one of the ways that we know that these shuhoor hurum apply to us and are not just for God's sake. Let's look at the pertinent part of the 936

God's count/counting of shuhoor is twelve; (that is) in God's decree/book/record the day he created the heavens and the earth.
(End of first idea).

Of these (shuhoor) 4 of them are sacred/restricted. This is the correct discipline/order/way/religion.

So do no wrong/harm to each other DURING THEM (this 'them' could refer to the 4 shuhoor declared hurum by God or to the 12 that God has been counting since he created the moon and the earth.) As I said before there is something seriously wong in claiming that God has been ignoring a phenomenon (the occurrence of a 13th full moon) that he created snice the day he created both the moon and the earth.

I understand the point you are trying to make that the count of "shuhoor" is God's, i.e. from God's perspective but so are "restricted shuhoor" and them being four, but you are failing to consider the phrase "thalika alddeenu alqayyimu" (this is the correct system/obligation) immediately following that, which refers to both the count and the restricted shuhoor being four, and therefore makes it an obligation for the humans to follow the same count and the four restricted shuhoor from the human perspective too, unless you claim that God is talking about deen being for God and not for humans.

Yes, God is saying that His count of 12 shuhoor in the year and the 4 shuhoor declared hurum is ad-deenul-qayyimu. And that does point to the fact that we need to observe the 4 shuhoor declared hurum and that we need to imitate the way God has been counting these shuhoor. I never tried to make this deen only for God and not applicable to us. But the counting of 12 shuhoor mentioned in this verse is specifically God's action, first and foremost. And what I am saying is why in the world would God have been ignoring a phenomenon (the occurrence of the 13th full moon) that He Himself made when He first created both the moon and the earth?

So here is what your belief implies God created the heavens, the moon and the earth, and created the phenomenon where there is a 13th full moon every few years. But He has chosen to ignore all of the occurences of the 13th full moon that He created in the first place since the very day He caused this phenomenon to exist.

So in essence you have God not counting something that He created in the first place. And that goes against 7228 and it's claim that God takes into account (meaning He does not ignore) the number of all things. And that verse goes along with the sound logic that God wouldn't create something (including the consistent occurrence of a 13th moon) only to completely ignore it right after He created it in the first place.

Godbless,
Anwar

I hope you finally understood my issue with the Quranic implicatons of the 'shahr only as full moon in the Quran' idea and ignoring a complete shahr.

What's even more interesting is that even in the Talmudic/Pre-Quranic Arab system no-one really literally added a month. They just ignored what would have been the first lunar cylce, after the the 12th one had passed, and resumed counting on the 2nd lunar cycle as if it were the first one. And that is strikingly and eerily similar to ignoring a naturally occurring 13th full moon all together and resuming the count on what would be the second full moon of a 12 full moon cycle. I urge you not to dismiss me here and to really think about this. It is the very same thing that the Quran forbids us whether shahr is taken as a complete lunar cycle or a full moon.

unknownuser

Why did God make the count of the restricted shuhoor to be four? Why not three or five?

Salam,

Here is my current understanding

There are Three months in the Torah in which there are specific observances. The Fourth month would be the Month of Ramadan in which the Quran was revealed.

The three great feasts in the Torah plus of the Month of Ramadan in which the Quran was revealed would equal Four sacred Months.

Passover Observances including Feast of Unleavened Bread, (the first month of the year in which the Exodus Occurred)
Shavout/Pentacost/Feast of Weeks (observed on the 50th day, or 7 weeks, from the Paschal Feast)
Yom Kippur, Day of Shouting, Feast of Tabernacles (Seventh Month)
Ramadan the month in which the Quran was revealed
The Month of Abib and Passover

From Eastons Bible Dictionary

The name given to the chief of the three great historical annual festivals of the Jews. It was kept in remembrance of the Lord's passing over the houses of the Israelites (Exo_1213) when the first born of all the Egyptians were destroyed. It is called also the ?feast of unleavened bread? (Exo_2315; Mar_141; Act_123), because during its celebration no leavened bread was to be eaten or even kept in the household (Exo_1215).
A detailed account of the institution of this feast is given in Ex. 12 and 13. It was afterwards incorporated in the ceremonial law (Lev_234- as one of the great festivals of the nation. In after times many changes seem to have taken place as to the mode of its celebration as compared with its first celebration (Compare Deu_162, Deu_165, Deu_166; 2Ch_3016; Lev_2310-14; Num_910, Num_911; Num_2816-24).

Shavout/Pentacost/Feast of Weeks

From the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

As the name indicates, this second of the great Jewish national festivals was observed on the 50th day, or 7 weeks, from the Paschal Feast, and therefore in the Old Testament it was called ?the feast of weeks.? It is but once mentioned in the historical books of the Old Testament (2Ch_812, 2Ch_813), from which reference it is plain, however, that the people of Israel, in Solomon's day, were perfectly familiar with it ?offering according to the commandment of Moses, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the set feasts, three times in the year, even in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles.? The requirements of the three great festivals were then well understood at this time, and their authority was founded in the Mosaic Law and unquestioned. The festival and its ritual were minutely described in this Law. Every male in Israel was on that day required to appear before the Lord at the sanctuary (Exo_3422, Exo_3423). It was the first of the two agrarian festivals of Israel and signified the completion of the barley-harvest (Lev_2315, Lev_2316; Deu_169, Deu_1610), which had begun at the time of the waving of the first ripe sheaf of the first-fruits (Lev_2311). Pentecost, or the Feast of Weeks, therefore fell on the 50th day after this occurrence. The wheat was then also nearly everywhere harvested (Exo_2316; Exo_3422; Num_2826), and the general character of the festival was that of a harvest-home celebration. The day was observed as a Sabbath day, all labor was suspended, and the people appeared before Yahweh to express their gratitude (Lev_2321; Num_2826). The central feature of the day was the presentation of two loaves of leavened, salted bread unto the Lord (Lev_2317, Lev_2320; Exo_3422; Num_2826; Deu_1610). The size of each loaf was fixed by law. It must contain the tenth of an ephah, about three quarts and a half, of the finest wheat flour of the new harvest (Lev_2317). Later Jewish writers are very minute in their description of the preparation of these two loaves (Josephus, Ant., III, x, 6). According to the Mishna (Menahoth, xi. 4), the length of the loaf was 7 handbreadths, its width 4, its depth 7 fingers. Lev_2318 describes the additional sacrifices required on this occasion. It was a festival of good cheer, a day of joy. Free-will offerings were to be made to the Lord (Deu_1610), and it was to be marked by a liberal spirit toward the Levite, the stranger, and orphans and widows (Deu_1611, Deu_1614). Perhaps the command against gleaning harvest-fields has a bearing on this custom (Lev_2322).

Yom Kippur, Day of Shouting, Feast of Tabernacles

From The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

In Exo_3010 it is mentioned in the directions that are given for the construction of the altar of incense that Aaron, once a year, is to make an atonement on the horns of the altar, with the blood of the sin offering, which is used for the purpose of an atonement for sin.
In Lev_2326-32 mention is made in the list of festivals of the Day of Atonement, on the 10th day of the 7th month. It is ordered that for this day there shall be a holy convocation at the sanctuary, a fast, an offering by fire, and rest from labor from the 9th day of the 7th month in the evening.

In Lev_2323-25 the first day (new moon) of the seventh month is set apart as a solemn rest, ?a memorial of blowing of trumpets? (the Hebrew leaves ?of trumpets? to be understood), signalized further by ?a holy convocation,? abstinence from work, and the presentation of ?an offering made by fire.? In Num_291-6 these directions are repeated, with a detailed specification of the nature of the offering. In addition to the usual daily burnt sacrifices and the special offerings for new moons, there are to be offered one bullock, one ram, and seven he-lambs, with proper meal offerings, together with a he-goat for a sin offering.

The Feast of Tabernacles is at once the general harvest festival, hagh he-'asiph, and the anniversary of the beginnings of the wanderings in the wilderness (Exo_2316; Lev_2333; Deu_1613-15). The Eighth Day of Assembly immediately following the last day of Tabernacles (Lev_2336; Num_2935; Joh_737) and closing the long cycle of Tishri festivals seems to have been merely a final day of rejoicing before the pilgrims returned to their homes.

Ramadan
We know about this one )

General Info

From the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

Found Under Feasts, and Fasts

Passover is connected with the barley harvest; at the same time it is the zeman heruth, recalling the
Exodus from Egypt (Exo_126; Lev_235, Lev_238; Num_2816-25; Deu_161-.
Pentecost has an agricultural phase as hagh ha-bikkurim, the celebration of the wheat harvest; it has a
religious phase as zeman mattan Thorah in the Jewish liturgy, based on the rabbinical calculation which
makes it the day of the giving of the Law, and this religious side has so completely overshadowed the
agricultural that among modern Jews the Pentecost has become ?confirmation day? (Exo_3426; Lev_2310-
14; Num_2826-31).

The Feast of Tabernacles is at once the general harvest festival, hagh he-'asiph, and the anniversary of
the beginnings of the wanderings in the wilderness (Exo_2316; Lev_2333; Deu_1613-15). The Eighth Day
of Assembly immediately following the last day of Tabernacles (Lev_2336; Num_2935; Joh_737) and
closing the long cycle of Tishri festivals seems to have been merely a final day of rejoicing before the
pilgrims returned to their homes.
New Year (Lev_2323-25; Num_291-6) and the Day of Atonement (Lev_161; Lev_2326-32; Num_297-11)
marked the turning of the year; primarily, perhaps, in the natural phenomena of Palestine, but also in
the inner life of the nation and the individual. Hence, the religious significance of these days as days
of judgment, penitence and forgiveness soon overshadowed any other significance they may have had. The
temple ritual for these days, which is minutely described in the Old Testament and in the Talmud, was
the most elaborate and impressive of the year. At the same time Atonement Day was socially an important
day of rejoicing.

On the subject of the Lunar vs. Solar discussion Here are some Opinions/Theories

From the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

Natural Seasons for Worship
The sun alone indicated the hours for daily worship; at sunrise, when the day began, there was the
morning sacrifice; at sunset, when the day closed, there was the evening sacrifice.
The moon indicated the time for monthly worship; when the slender crescent of the new moon was first
seen in the western sky, special sacrifices were ordained with the blowing of trumpets over them.
The sun and moon together marked the times for the two great religious festivals of the year. At the
beginning of the bright part of the year, when the moon was full in the first month of spring, the

Passover, followed by the Feast of Unleavened Bread, was held. At the end of the bright part of the
year, when the moon was full in the first month of autumn, the Feast of Tabernacles was held. These may
all be termed natural seasons for worship, obviously marked out as appropriate. The beginning and close
of the bright part of the day, and of the bright part of the year, and the beginning of the bright part
of the month, have been observed by many nations.

The Luni-Solar Cycles of Daniel
The seasons for which the sun and moon were appointed are mentioned in yet another connection. In the last vision given to Daniel the question was asked, ?How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?? and it was answered, ?It shall be for a time, times (dual), and a half; and when they have made an end of breaking in pieces the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished? (Dan_126, Dan_127). From the parallel passage in Dan_725, where it is said of the fourth beast, ?He shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand until a time (iddan) and times (dual) and half a time,? it is inferred that moedh in the first instance stands, like iddan in the second, for a year; or the period is equivalent to half a week of years. The parallel passages in Rev_112, Rev_113; Rev_126, Rev_1214; Rev_135 have caused these years to be taken as conventional years of 360 days, each year being made up of 12 conventional months of 30 days, and on the year-day principle of interpretation, the entire period indicated would be one of 1,260 tropical years. This again is a luni-solar cycle, since 1,260 years contain 15,584 months correct to the nearest day. To the same prophet Daniel a further chronological vision was given, and a yet more perfect cycle indicated. In answer to the question, ?How long shall be the vision concerning the continual burnt-offering, and the transgression that maketh desolate, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?? the answer was returned, ?Unto two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed? (Dan_813, Dan_814). Whatever may be the prophetic significance of the passage its astronomical significance is clear 840,057 days are precisely 2,300 solar years, or 28,447 lunar months, or 30,487 anomalistic months, the anomalistic month being the period in which the moon travels from perigee to perigee. It is the most perfect lunisolar cycle known, and restores the two great lights exactly to their former relationship. This fullest ?season? indicated by the sun and moon is given as that for the cleansing of the sanctuary, for the bringing in, as it were, of the full and perfect Jubilee.
It is not possible at present to decide as to whether the Jews had learnt of this cycle and its significance from their astronomical observations. If so, they must have been far in advance in mathematical science of all other nations of antiquity. If not, then it must have been given to them by Divine revelation, and its astronomical significance has been left for modern science to reveal.

Calendar
The sun and moon were appointed ?to give light upon the earth,? and ?for signs,? and ?for days and years.? They were also appointed ?for seasons? (moadhim), i.e. ?appointed assemblies.? These seasons were not primarily such seasons as the progress of the year brings forth in the form of changes of weather or of the condition of vegetation; they were seasons for worship. The word moedh occurs some 219 times; in 149, it is translated ?congregation,? and in about 50 other instances by ?solemn assembly? or some equivalent expression. Thus before ever man was created, God had provided for him times to worship and had appointed two great lights of heaven to serve as signals to call to it.
The appointed sacred seasons of the Jews form a most complete and symmetrical series, developing from times indicated by the sun alone to times indicated by the sun and moon together, and completed in times indicated by luni-solar cycles.

From Easton's Bible Dictionary
Astronomy

The Hebrews were devout students of the wonders of the starry firmament (Amo_58; Psa_191-14). In the Book of Job, which is the oldest book of the Bible in all probability, the constellations are distinguished and named. Mention is made of the ?morning star? (Rev_228; compare Isa_1412), the ?seven stars? and ?Pleiades,? ?Orion,? ?Arcturus,? the ?Great Bear? (Amo_58; Job_99; Job_3831), ?the crooked serpent,? Draco (Job_2613), the Dioscuri, or Gemini, ?Castor and Pollux? (Act_2811). The stars were called ?the host of heaven? (Isa_4026; Jer_3322).
The oldest divisions of time were mainly based on the observation of the movements of the heavenly bodies, the ?ordinances of heaven? (Gen_114-18; Job_3833; Jer_3135; Jer_3325). Such observations led to the division of the year into months and the mapping out of the appearances of the stars into twelve portions, which received from into twelve portions, which received from the Greeks the name of the ?zodiac.? The word ?Mazzaroth? (Job_3832) means, as the margin notes, ?the twelve signs? of the zodiac. Astronomical observations were also necessary among the Jews in order to the fixing of the proper time for sacred ceremonies, the ?new moons,? the ?passover,? etc. Many allusions are found to the display of God's wisdom and power as seen in the starry heavens (Psa_81-9; Psa_191-6; Isa_516, etc.)

An Interesting point of view on the whole lunar vs Solar discussion
http//www.karaite-korner.org/abib.shtml

Salam,
Arnab

truthseeker11

Peace Progod,

The second part about 4 of them being sacred for God only, that part of the passage has nothing to do with God's count anymore and God's count is the issue at hand. The passage specifically says God is counting 12 shahr. This is not about the passage being from God's perspective because just about all of the Quran is from God's perspective. The issue is that the first part of this passage is only dealing with God's action of counting 12 shahr. Remember 3iddah is an action. It is counting.

God is also counting 4 restricted (not sacred) shuhoor. It is God's count as is clear from the wording "minha arba3atun hurumun". MINHA/"from it" directly refers to the count of shuhoor being 12, which is God's count, so the count of restricted shuhoor being four is also God's count.

Why did God count only four and not 3 or 5 restricted shuhoor? All animals don't magically stop breeding in 4 shuhoor. Some of them continue for a few more weeks. Why did God ignore those animals?

As I will show in this post, God is not ignoring anything, but is just making a deen/system/obligation for us to follow, instead of stating absolute facts.

God in this verse does declare 4 of these 12 shuhoor to be hurum, and we are instructed about how to act within the hurum in other passages of the Quran. So that is one of the ways that we know that these shuhoor hurum apply to us and are not just for God's sake.

Similarly we are instructed about using the count of shuhoor in other passages, for example using the count to determine the waiting period after divorce. So that is one of the ways we know that the count of shuhoor applies to us and are not just for God's sake. Even in 936 God says "thalika alddeenu alqayyimu"/"this is the correct system/obligation", which is also applicable to the count of shuhoor being 12, and thus makes the count of shuhoor being 12 applicable to us, as a system/obligation for us to follow.

Let's look at the pertinent part of the 936

God's count/counting of shuhoor is twelve; (that is) in God's decree/book/record the day he created the heavens and the earth.
(End of first idea).

Of these (shuhoor) 4 of them are sacred/restricted. This is the correct discipline/order/way/religion.

So do no wrong/harm to each other DURING THEM (this 'them' could refer to the 4 shuhoor declared hurum by God or to the 12 that God has been counting since he created the moon and the earth.)

As I said before, MINHA joins both phrases and you cannot separate them like that; "thalika alddeenu alqayyimu" refers to BOTH

The count of shuhoor being 12 with God
FROM IT/MINHA 4 being restricted

Both of these are the correct DEEN/SYSTEM/OBLIGATION for humans. God is not ignoring anything and has made a system/obligation of counting for us to follow.

Yes, God is saying that His count of 12 shuhoor in the year and the 4 shuhoor declared hurum is ad-deenul-qayyimu. And that does point to the fact that we need to observe the 4 shuhoor declared hurum and that we need to imitate the way God has been counting these shuhoor. I never tried to make this deen only for God and not applicable to us. But the counting of 12 shuhoor mentioned in this verse is specifically God's action, first and foremost.

Count of restricted shuhoor being 4 is also specifically God's action, as is clear from "minha"/from IT, the IT referring to the count of shuhoor being 12. The "minha" also indicates that the count of restricted shuhoor being 4 is also from the day He created the heavens and the earth. So both counts are specifically God's actions, but as you correctly stated, those counts are a system/obligation for us to follow.

And what I am saying is why in the world would God have been ignoring a phenomenon (the occurrence of the 13th full moon) that He Himself made when He first created both the moon and the earth?

So here is what your belief implies God created the heavens, the moon and the earth, and created the phenomenon where there is a 13th full moon every few years. But He has chosen to ignore all of the occurences of the 13th full moon that He created in the first place since the very day He caused this phenomenon to exist.

So in essence you have God not counting something that He created in the first place. And that goes against 7228 and it's claim that God takes into account (meaning He does not ignore) the number of all things. And that verse goes along with the sound logic that God wouldn't create something (including the consistent occurrence of a 13th moon) only to completely ignore it right after He created it in the first place.

HE IS NOT IGNORING ANYTHING. HE JUST CREATED A SYSTEM/OBLIGATION FOR US TO FOLLOW AS IS CLEAR FROM "THALIKA ALDDEENU ALQAYYIMU"/"THIS IS THE CORRECT SYSTEM/OBLIGATION".

You will have a point only if it had stated that THE NUMBER of shuhoor with God is 12. Then He would be ignoring the occurrence of other shuhoor.

You will also have a point if "thalika alddeenu alqayyimu" was missing from 936, but it is not missing. God chooses His words very carefully.

The count of shuhoor being 12 is a count and not a number, and this count is a system/obligation made for us to follow. God is not ignoring, but making a system/obligation for us, just like He made only 4 shuhoor restricted. Once again, why did God ignore some wild animals who continue to breed after the four restricted shuhoor are over?

Making a system/obligation is not the same as stating absolute facts. God is not stating absolute facts, but making a system/obligation for us to follow, so He can test us. If He was stating absolute facts, He would have used the word "3adad"/number, and not "3iddat"/count, or He would not have said "thalika alddeenu alqayyimu".

HE COULD HAVE EASILY STATED THAT "THE COUNT OF SHUHOOR IS 10 OR 11 WITH GOD AND THIS IS THE CORRECT DEEN/SYSTEM", AND THEN WE WOULD HAVE HAD TO IGNORE ANY FULL-MOONS IN A SOLAR YEAR AFTER THE 10TH or 11TH. 936 IS JUST A SYSTEM/OBLIGATION FOR US TO FOLLOW AND NOT STATING ABSOLUTE FACTS.

What's even more interesting is that even in the Talmudic/Pre-Quranic Arab system no-one really literally added a month. They just ignored what would have been the first lunar cylce, after the the 12th one had passed, and resumed counting on the 2nd lunar cycle as if it were the first one. And that is strikingly and eerily similar to ignoring a naturally occurring 13th full moon all together and resuming the count on what would be the second full moon of a 12 full moon cycle. I urge you not to dismiss me here and to really think about this. It is the very same thing that the Quran forbids us whether shahr is taken as a complete lunar cycle or a full moon.

937 does not mention anything about adding a month. The word is "nasi'a" which means "delay".

937 Know that the "nasi'a"/delay causes an increase in rejection, for it is used by those who have rejected that they may misguide with it by making it lawful one year and forbidding it one year, so as to circumvent the count that God has made restricted; thus they make lawful what God made forbidden! Their evil works have been adorned for them, and God does not guide the rejecting people.

God does not forbid ignoring the 13th full-moon every 3rd year, but forbids delaying the restricted shuhoor every other year. The delaying can be done not just by ignoring a shahr prematurely, but also by arbitrarily delaying the restricted shuhoor according to our personal whims and desires, which is exactly what your theory proposes. Your theory circumvents what God has made restricted, by making the determination of start of the restricted shuhoor and their occurrence completely arbitrary according to our personal whims and desires, thus violating the hunting restriction and making lawful what God made forbidden, just like 937 states.

truthseeker11

Peace Siki, Ayman, Umm Tariq,

Thank you for the kind and encouraging words. Truth always exposes the falsehood but we have to control our egos and fantasies, and have complete faith/trust in al-quran, and majority fail to do that. They forget that al-quran authenticates and supercedes previous revelations or other historical information, and not the other way around. Once we control our egos and fantasies, and have faith in God's words, He always guides us to the truth. May God help us control our egos and fantasies, and understand His words and guide us to the truth.

4523 Have you seen the one who took his ego as his god, and God led him astray, despite his knowledge, and He sealed his hearing and his heart, and He made a veil on his eyes? Who then can guide him after God? Will you not remember?

progod

Peace,

God is also counting 4 restricted (not sacred) shuhoor. It is God's count as is clear from the wording "minha arba3atun hurumun". MINHA/"from it" directly refers to the count of shuhoor being 12, which is God's count, so the count of restricted shuhoor being four is also God's count.

As far as your definition for haraam. You have no clue. The word can means restricted and sacred. And the only way you will understand this is by understanding how ihtiraam (from the same root) means respect. So don't argue with me on the meaning of harama, because you are pidgeon-holing the meaning unjustly.

Why did God count only four and not 3 or 5 restricted shuhoor? All animals don't magically stop breeding in 4 shuhoor. Some of them continue for a few more weeks. Why did God ignore those animals?

It is amazing how you premise this argument based on yoru man-made requisite for hunting restrictions to protect animal breeding. First of all, not every animal breeds in the same season. And ateast most government sponsored hunting bans are revoked or extended based on actual animal populations not breeding times. But, you guys agree on this general rule assuming that you know when "most" animals breed, and also trying to force these bans onto all people the way you think they should be. Listen, if the Quran had been talking about saving animal populations when it mentioned the ban on hunting, I think it would have said it. To asssume so is just that, an assumption. There is no way you can judge my conclusions based on this non-quranic conjecture. If the Quran says something ecologically sound then hey, that's great, but don't try to force an ecological agenda on the Quran that doesn't even realistically apply to all the animal populations that are subject to human hunting. And to imply that you would force these prohbitions on non-Muslims is wrong. Ayman took a good and ecologically sound, but man-made, voted on, and subject to change measure and tried to force that into the Quran. And you are accepting this? Why? We can guestimate and conjecture all day about what the hunting restriction and fasting are really for. But if the Quran doesn't say it specifically all we can do is be witnesses to the affects and praise God if and when they are good. More than that is inappropriate.

As I will show in this post, God is not ignoring anything, but is just making a deen/system/obligation for us to follow, instead of stating absolute facts.

But God did state an absolute fact. There's no getting past that. Inna 3iddata shuhoori 3anda allaahi is the statement of an absolute fact, not a command.

Similarly we are instructed about using the count of shuhoor in other passages, for example using the count to determine the waiting period after divorce. So that is one of the ways we know that the count of shuhoor applies to us and are not just for God's sake. Even in 936 God says "thalika alddeenu alqayyimu"/"this is the correct system/obligation", which is also applicable to the count of shuhoor being 12, and thus makes the count of shuhoor being 12 applicable to us, as a system/obligation for us to follow.

In truth the verse is telling us an absolute fact about the way God has been doing things, and who does things better than God? Right? So we are best off following what God has been doing. I see that as the intent of those passages dealing with an-nasee'. First it tells us how God has been doing it and then it implies that we need to be doing it like God has been doing it. And with that said I am quite sure that God has not been ignoring any 13th full moon in any of the years he has created.

Both of these are the correct DEEN/SYSTEM/OBLIGATION for humans. God is not ignoring anything and has made a system/obligation of counting for us to follow.

Don't you get it? God has been counting and we are to count like he does. So for God to have been counting only 12 full moons in the years that he created 13 of them means that he has been ignoring his own 13th full moons. I know you see that, and I know you know that this is a problem.

Count of restricted shuhoor being 4 is also specifically God's action, as is clear from "minha"/from IT, the IT referring to the count of shuhoor being 12. The "minha" also indicates that the count of restricted shuhoor being 4 is also from the day He created the heavens and the earth. So both counts are specifically God's actions, but as you correctly stated, those counts are a system/obligation for us to follow.

I think there is only one mentioned count in this verse but to be honest, what is the issue? The 4 months is actually a number 3adad as well. But besides that, God counts 12 shuhoor, and then he says 4 of them are sacred/restricted and we are to imitate his count and observe his 4 sacred/restricted shuhoor. Agreed. But that still does not answer why God has been ignoring the 13th full moons (when we see shahr as full moon) that He Himself created during some years. Why would God ignore what He created in the first place?

HE IS NOT IGNORING ANYTHING. HE JUST CREATED A SYSTEM/OBLIGATION FOR US TO FOLLOW AS IS CLEAR FROM "THALIKA ALDDEENU ALQAYYIMU"/"THIS IS THE CORRECT SYSTEM/OBLIGATION".

But earlier you agreed that 936 is a statement of God's actions that we are to imitate. Whether we are to imitate God's counting is not the issue here. We both know that that is the intent of this passage. There's no arguing that. The issue is why is God not counting the 13th full moons that he caused in the first place? Because if you are saying that God has only been counting 12 full moons since he created the heavens and the earth you are implying that he has been ignoring, by not counting, the 13th full moons that he created in the first place.

You will have a point only if it had stated that THE NUMBER of shuhoor with God is 12. Then He would be ignoring the occurrence of other shuhoor.

But the Quran says that God has been counting (3iddah) only 12 shuhoor. So that means that out of 13 full moons in any given year God has been only counting up to 12 during those years since the day he created the heavens, the moon and the earth. And in that case it is obvious that he would be ignoring His own 13th full moons that he caused in the first place. The matter is not a difference between 3adad and 3iddah, or number and count/counting my friend. I have been using the meaning of counting to make this point for a long time now. Please don't accuse me of implying number, when I am specifically talking about how many full moons God has always been counting. Taking shahr as full moon, according 936 God has ben counting 12 full moons each year. Despite the fact that he gave some of those years 13 full moons. So how is it that when God doesn't count the 13th full moons that HE created, He is somehow not ignoring them?

You will also have a point if "thalika alddeenu alqayyimu" was missing from 936, but it is not missing. God chooses His words very carefully.

I have a point with this phrase in the verse. This is the part that lets us know that we are to imitate God's way of counting. Holy/restricted months and all. But that still doesn't negate the fact that looking at shuhoor as full moon in the Quran has God ignoring the 13th full moons that he Himself created since the day He created the heavens, the moon and the earth.

The count of shuhoor being 12 is a count and not a number, and this count is a system/obligation made for us to follow. God is not ignoring, but making a system/obligation for us, just like He made only 4 shuhoor restricted.

You are right that count and not number is the word used here. And this count is not only a system/obligation for us to follow, it is also the way God counts Himself per 936. But again if the passage says that God has only been counting twelve full moons since the day he created the heavens and the earth, then that means he's been ignoring the 13th full moons that He created too.

Once again, why did God ignore some wild animals who continue to breed after the four restricted shuhoor are over?

That is a question you have to ask your camp. Because it is according to your camp that these four holy/restricted months are so wild animals can breed freely during some common breeding season. So any animals left out of that process because their breeding continues later than your proposed 4 months of hunting restriction or because their breeding season falls in a completely separate time, is proof of the inconsistency of this proposal. Not to mention that the Quran does not give ecological reasons for not hunting during these shuhoor, nor does it mention the breeding cycles of animals. These reasons may not be un-Quranic but they are completely extra-Quranic and non-Quranic.

Making a system/obligation is not the same as stating absolute facts. God is not stating absolute facts, but making a system/obligation for us to follow, so He can test us. If He was stating absolute facts, He would have used the word "3adad"/number, and not "3iddat"/count, or He would not have said "thalika alddeenu alqayyimu".

But you see 936 does both. It states an absolute fact and then implies that we imitate it. And I don't see your point about God using 3adad/number to state a fact and 3iddah/counting/count to to make a system. In 936 what's given to us is the absolute fact that God has been counting (3iddah) 12 shuhoor since he created the heavens and the earth. Then the fact that 4 of these are hurum, is also given to us. And then we are urged to imitate God's count by the use of the word deen. But that still does not eliminate the problem of God not counting His own 13th full moons since the day He created the heavens, the earth and the moon itself. This problem can't be avoided if we take shahr as full moon in the Quran.

HE COULD HAVE EASILY STATED THAT "THE COUNT OF SHUHOOR IS 10 OR 11 WITH GOD AND THIS IS THE CORRECT DEEN/SYSTEM", AND THEN WE WOULD HAVE HAD TO IGNORE ANY FULL-MOONS IN A SOLAR YEAR AFTER THE 10TH or 11TH. 936 IS JUST A SYSTEM/OBLIGATION FOR US TO FOLLOW AND NOT STATING ABSOLUTE FACTS.

Again you are ignoring the fact that God has been counting 12, and we are urged to imitate God's count. In which case the question still stands. Why has God not been counting his own 13th full moons?

937 does not mention anything about adding a month. The word is "nasi'a" which means "delay".

I clearly said that although people have termed this idea of a 13th month as adding a 13th month, it is really not an addition at all. It is ignoring the real 1st month (we call it the 13th month) and thereby delaying the actual 1st month of the year so that it falls on what would have been the 2nd month had we started afresh right after the 12th month expired.

937 Know that the "nasi'a"/delay IS an increase in rejection/denial, for it is used by those who have rejected that they may misguide with it by making it lawful one year and forbidding it one year, so as to circumvent the count that God has made restricted; thus they make lawful what God made forbidden! Their evil works have been adorned for them, and God does not guide the rejecting people.

God does not forbid ignoring the 13th full-moon every 3rd year, but forbids delaying the restricted shuhoor every other year. The delaying can be done not just by ignoring a shahr prematurely, but also by arbitrarily delaying the restricted shuhoor according to our personal whims and desires, which is exactly what your theory proposes. Your theory circumvents what God has made restricted, by making the determination of start of the restricted shuhoor and their occurrence completely arbitrary according to our personal whims and desires, thus violating the hunting restriction and making lawful what God made forbidden, just like 937 states.

I beg to differ about how you are reading that verse. The delaying of any shahr via ignoring it was done to to circumvent the count that God has made restricted. And not only are the sacred/restricted shuhoor restricted to 4, but the count of the shuhoor is restricted to 12. And by circumventing these counts they make lawful what God made forbidden!

So here's the truth

If there are 13 full moons some years, but God has only been counting up to 12 (936), then he has not been counting the 13th full moons. So he has been ignoing them. That goes against logic and 7228 and shows that the shuhoor of the Quran are not full-moons.
936 is stating an absolute fact about how God has been counting the shuhoor and then urges us to imitate God's counting (3iddah) of 12 shuhoor.
Not counting any 13th full moons on our part is the same as the pre-islamic practice of An-naseee'u, as we delay the real first shahr of the year until what is actually the 2nd shahr after the 12th shahr has ended. Thereby, we circumvent God's count of twelve shuhoor.
We circumvent God's count of 12 shuhoor because for God to have taken into account, and to have counted all things means that he has never ignored any of his shuhoor either. So God's count/counting (3iddah) of shuhoor has to coincide with the number (3adad) of shuhoor that he made in the first place.
It is true that a count/counting (3iddah) of something doesn't always have to coincide with the number (3adad) of something. I can have 8 oranges and only count 5, thereby ignoring 3 of them. But If i go to the store and buy 10 oranges and then I delcare that I have not ignored anything that I bought, when I count my oranges my count cannot be anything other than 10; by virtue of my statement that I have not ignored anything that I bought. And it is by virtue of the Quran's statement that God has counted and taken all things into account (722, and by virtue of logic that God would not ignore something that he made in the first place, that God cannot ignore the 13th full moons that he created. So if the Quran says God has been counting 12 shuhoor, it cannot be talking about full moons, because God's count of ALL THE SHUHOOR he has created HAS ALWAYS been 12.
And we are to imitate God's count of shuhoor in our deen.
The Quran nowhere mentions that its restriction on hunting for those observing the shuhoor hurum is to protect animal breeding or animal populations. It's a good idea to protect animal breeding times and populations in order to preserve balances in ecosystems and a constant food supply, but not even these goals can be accomplished by squishing them into a four month hunting ban. And it is even more inappropriate to force these agendas onto the Quran in places where the Quran does not give these reasons for the motivation behind its commands.

Godbless,
Anwar

ayman

Peace Anwar,

As far as your definition for haraam. You have no clue. The word can means restricted and sacred. And the only way you will understand this is by understanding how ihtiraam (from the same root) means respect. So don't argue with me on the meaning of harama, because you are pidgeon-holing the meaning unjustly.

As for your comment, about "haram" can mean "sacred" (making the meat of the pig potentially "sacred&quot, this is a perfect example of unintelligent and uncritical use of dictionaries. By the way "i7tiram" can NEVER mean "making something sacred". Its meaning of "respect" has to do with the meaning of "restricted" or "inviolable" so "i7tiram/respect of something" means "to not violate it". We even use this in English to say "respect the law" (not "make the law sacred&quot. The word "sacred" or "holy" in Arabic is "qudus".

The Quran nowhere mentions that its restriction on hunting for those observing the shuhoor hurum is to protect animal breeding or animal populations. It's a good idea to protect animal breeding times and populations in order to preserve balances in ecosystems and a constant food supply, but not even these goals can be accomplished by squishing them into a four month hunting ban. And it is even more inappropriate to force these agendas onto the Quran in places where the Quran does not give these reasons for the motivation behind its commands.

Just because you have a bias for an arbitrary 30 day Anwar month, it doesn't mean that everyone starts from a certain bias and works backwards to justify it from the great reading. The time of the restriction was found based 100% on what is learned from the great reading. It was afterwards and after doing more research that it was discovered that the timing of the restricted full-moons happens to coincide with when most places around the world have their hunting restrictions anyway. This is not due to this being breeding time. This is due to this time being the time when young animals have just been born or about to be born. So this is to protect the weak young animals until they can fend for themselves by the fall.

It is true that a count/counting (3iddah) of something doesn't always have to coincide with the number (3adad) of something.

Yes, this is indisputable and this is all that you needed to acknowledge. Now apart from the above, you can have your opinion about the population that the god counts out of but this opinion doesn't change the reality of what we can observe in the heavens and the earth. So, as far as your opinion goes we will just have to agree to disagree.

All your other comments have been repeatedly addressed and debunked in previous posts throughout this thread.

Peace,

Ayman

unknownuser

Peace,

2 - Why can a menstruating woman wait for a minimum of 56 days but a menopausal woman whose menopause is doubtful has to wait a minimum of 88 days (3 lunar months)? The meaning of "lunar month" in 654 would result in a major inconsistency in al-quran, because then the minimum waiting period for menstruating women would be the time period between 3 menstruations or approximately 56 days but the minimum waiting period for menopausal women whose menopause is doubtful would be 88 days.

Again, THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION!

Minimum is NOT 56 days ? womens' menses can vary depending on the woman from once a week to once every few months. The ?average? is about once per month or 3 cycles in 3 months.

Whatever may be the prophetic significance of the passage its astronomical significance is clear 840,057 days are precisely 2,300 solar years, or 28,447 lunar months, or 30,487 anomalistic months, the anomalistic month being the period in which the moon travels from perigee to perigee. It is the most perfect lunisolar cycle known, and restores the two great lights exactly to their former relationship.

lunar month x 28,447 = 2,299.999 solar years

Interesting...

lunar month x 12 x 309 lunar years = 299.799498 solar years

1825 And they stayed in their cave three hundred years, and add nine.

300 solar years and add 9 for 309 lunar years

It was afterwards and after doing more research that it was discovered that the timing of the restricted full-moons happens to coincide with when most places around the world have their hunting restrictions anyway. This is not due to this being breeding time. This is due to this time being the time when young animals have just been born or about to be born. So this is to protect the weak young animals until they can fend for themselves by the fall.

What research? Like these animals which were hunted to near extinction...

Arabian oryx (Oryx leucoryx)

http//www.oryxoman.com/oryxfacts.html

http//www.oryxoman.com/images/thoryxwalking.jpg

Birth Season

Oryx may calve in any month of the year but there is a general pattern of births in the winter period December to April. This is thought to be largely the consequence of winter rains influencing conception.

progod

Ayman,

As for your comment, about "haram" can mean "sacred" (making the meat of the pig potentially "sacred&quot, this is a perfect example of unintelligent and uncritical use of dictionaries. By the way "i7tiram" can NEVER mean "making something sacred". Its meaning of "respect" has to do with the meaning of "restricted" or "inviolable" so "i7tiram/respect of something" means "to not violate it". We even use this in English to say "respect the law" (not "make the law sacred&quot. The word "sacred" or "holy" in Arabic is "qudus".

I personally think you need to think more on the meaning of holy/sacred and their implications. Their implications have to do with great respect. Yes, the meat of pig would be potentially sacred, if it were not called an abomination in the Quran. But if those verses are really saying that eating pig's meat is an abomination then we may have to rethink the tradtional Muslim opinion of pig's meat as being a vile item to more like a potentially holy/sacred item that we must not touch. But in my opinion I don't think it would be very logical to only make the pig's meat forbidden (that means bones, skin and fat are not) and not give the status of haraam, as holy/sacred, to the whole pig. So it is obvious that pig's meat is an abomination, not to be eaten by those who know God's law.

Quote from progod on Yesterday at 061335 PM
7. The Quran nowhere mentions that its restriction on hunting for those observing the shuhoor hurum is to protect animal breeding or animal populations. It's a good idea to protect animal breeding times and populations in order to preserve balances in ecosystems and a constant food supply, but not even these goals can be accomplished by squishing them into a four month hunting ban. And it is even more inappropriate to force these agendas onto the Quran in places where the Quran does not give these reasons for the motivation behind its commands.

Just because you have a bias for an arbitrary 30 day Anwar month, it doesn't mean that everyone starts from a certain bias and works backwards to justify it from the great reading. The time of the restriction was found based 100% on what is learned from the great reading. It was afterwards and after doing more research that it was discovered that the timing of the restricted full-moons happens to coincide with when most places around the world have their hunting restrictions anyway. This is not due to this being breeding time. This is due to this time being the time when young animals have just been born or about to be born. So this is to protect the weak young animals until they can fend for themselves by the fall.

I think it's obvious to everyone from my quote above that I did not mentioned any 30 day months here, or Anwar months for that much. I would be glad to revisit that topic but let's keep things separate for the sake of clarity. We are dealing with your opinions on this subject now, and I am looking forward to revisting mine after we have exhuausted analysis on yours first. This is obviously an attempt at an unjustified attack on your part. And i think it's obvious that the Quran does not mention the protection of weak young animals (as merciful as that sounds) as a reason behind its restriction on hunting during the sacred/restricted months. You know just as well as i do that is totally extra-Quranic and non-quranic. But looking at what you've said I'd be curious to know when exactly is the time of restriction as you see it based on 100% of what you've learned from the Quran, having nothing to do with the extra-Quranic and non-Quranic hunting restrictions in most places around the world. Where are the Quranic verses that point to these shuhoor of restriction/sacredness and that give us the reasons you give us for the Quranic ban on hunting during these shuhoor? And can you provide them without extra commentary about the hunting restrictions found in most places around the world?

Quote from progod on Yesterday at 061335 PM
It is true that a count/counting (3iddah) of something doesn't always have to coincide with the number (3adad) of something.

Yes, this is indisputable and this is all that you needed to acknowledge. Now apart from the above, you can have your opinion about the population that the god counts out of but this opinion doesn't change the reality of what we can observe in the heavens and the earth. So, as far as your opinion goes we will just have to agree to disagree.

That is a great way of dismissing everything else I've said and focusing on the obvious, all the while trying to associate buzz words like 'indisputable' to your opinions. As it concerns the population that God counts out of, you know well from 7228 and from logic that it is illogical for God to have been always counting 12 shuhoor since he created the heavens and the earth when he has created some of those years with 13 shuhoor. You know that that means that means that God has been ignoring what He created in the first place. Of course we can agree to disagree and that is fine, but why can't you admit the lack of logic and the contradicton with 7228 with your opinion on this issue?

All your other comments have been repeatedly addressed and debunked in previous posts throughout this thread.

These are just words, that have no backing. On this issue you have debunked none of my comments. You have only denied them, and tried to twist my words in order to confuse and distract the readers here. I am glad these distractions and intentional confusions are finally becoming obvious to everyone here.

I urge you to consider the fact that you are doing the same thing that the Talmudic/pre-Islamic Arab calendar did by ignoring the first shahr (in this case full moon) after the end of the 12th full moon, and thereby delaying it until the actual 2nd shahr. That is An-nasee'u and it is an additon to rejection/denial.

I think it has been made obvious from all I have written that the Quran does not mean full moon when it says shahr. But that is for each individual to be able to see on his/her own.

sun Godbless,
Anwar

truthseeker11

Peace Anwar,

936 does not mention the absolute number of full-moons in a year but mentions count of full-moons. If God was talking about the total number of full-moons in a solar year, He would have said something like this

"The number (3adad) of full-moons in a year is 12 every year for 2 years and 13 full-moons in the third year".

936 also mentions that the purpose of the count is for the hunting restriction (God counts a subset of four restricted shuhoor out of the count of 12), to give us a system/obligation to follow so we can practically implement the hunting restriction. The only way to implement the hunting restriction is to make sure the "shuhoor" are always synchronized with the seasons. Always counting only 12 full-moons out of a possible set of 13 ensures that the full-moons are always synchronized with the seasons, so hunting restriction is not violated.

The count could be any number from a set. If the total possible full-moons in a year is 13, then the count could be any number from 1 to 13. It is impossible to count 13 full-moons every year, so God counts only 12 full-moons out of a possible 13 in a solar year and makes it a system/obligation for us to follow the same count, in order to maintain synchronization between the full-moons and the seasons for the purposes of hunting restriction. The only way to maintain this synchronization is to always count only 12 full-moons in a solar year and not to count the 13th full-moon when it happens within a solar year.

You are confusing counting from a set with absolute number in a set. In 936, God is counting from a set, not giving us an absolute number in a set.

You still have not told us why God chose the count of restricted shuhoor to be four.

7228 MENTIONS "3ADAD"/NUMBER OF ALL THINGS, NOT THEIR "3IDDAT"/COUNT.

YOUR THEORY ALSO COUNTS ONLY 12 "30 DAY MONTHS" IN A SOLAR YEAR AND SKIPS/IGNORES 1/6TH OF A "30 DAY MONTH" EVERY YEAR.

You are also ignoring 5-6 days every year to maintain the same synchronization between "months" and seasons. Count can be fractional too, so you are ignoring count of .17 of a 30 day month, out of a count of 12.17.

I can ask you the same question you have been asking. According to you, shahr means "30 day month". If that is so, then the absolute count of "30 day months" in a year is 12.17. Why is God not counting .17 of a month when He created it?

If you don't ignore the 5-6 days every year and instead count exactly 12 "30 day months" in a year, then you will have to skip an entire 13th "30 day month" every 6th year to maintain synchronization between the "months" and the seasons. Why would God not count this "30 day month" every 6 years when He created it?

The translation of "30 day month" you are proposing for "shahr" causes numerous irreconcilable contradictions and inconsistancies in al-quran, which have been repeatedly pointed out, and have still not been resolved. When you consider all the evidence from al-quran, "shahr" can only mean "full-moon" without causing any contradiction.

Resolve all the contradictions and inconsistencies caused by your interpretations and then we can discuss further. Until then we have to follow the best view and I am out of this dicussion.

3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

progod

Peace,

Peace Anwar,

936 does not mention the absolute number of full-moons in a year but mentions count of full-moons. If God was talking about the total number of full-moons in a solar year, He would have said something like this

"The number (3adad) of full-moons in a year is 12 every year for 2 years and 13 full-moons in the third year".

You've got to be kidding me. Why are you going backwards in this conversation? God counts everything he makes. Period. So if He were counting full moons and there are 13 full moons in any year, God would have been counting them. Otherwise you are saying that he is ignoring what he created in the first place. Why won't you get this?

936 also mentions that the purpose of the count is for the hunting restriction (God counts a subset of four restricted shuhoor out of the count of 12), to give us a system/obligation to follow so we can practically implement the hunting restriction. The only way to implement the hunting restriction is to make sure the "shuhoor" are always synchronized with the seasons. Always counting only 12 full-moons out of a possible set of 13 ensures that the full-moons are always synchronized with the seasons, so hunting restriction is not violated.

Again there is no way you are going to take these extra-Quranic ideas about when to implement the ban on hunting during the holy/restricted shuhoor. I admitted that 4 restricted shuhoor is obviously both God's count and the actual number that God decided on. These two concepts of number and count are not mutually exclusive. Why do you think they are? I think you are confused on this issue and are just taking a side.

The count could be any number from a set. If the total possible full-moons in a year is 13, then the count could be any number from 1 to 13. It is impossible to count 13 full-moons every year, so God counts only 12 full-moons out of a possible 13 in a solar year and makes it a system/obligation for us to follow the same count, in order to maintain synchronization between the full-moons and the seasons for the purposes of hunting restriction. The only way to maintain this synchronization is to always count only 12 full-moons in a solar year and not to count the 13th full-moon when it happens within a solar year
.

Here come the claims saying that I said things that I didn't. It is definitely impossible to count 13 full moons every year. And that's because some years have 12 full moons and others 13. This is obvious. But for those consistently occuring years with 13 full moons, if God created them he has to be counting them, otherwise he is ingoring his creation. And that goes against logic and 7228. You continue to imply only human action in couting. But I have already told you too many times that 936 is talking about God's count, and then implies that we imitate that count. So let me say this again, God's count. God's count. God's count. And in this case why does God need to syncronize the count of the full moons he created by ignoring the 13th full moons that he himself created in the first place. We are to follow God's lead when we count. And again it is absurd that God has been ignoring the 13th full moons that he created when he made the heavens, the earth and the moon. Please don't continue to say that I am implying that these 13th full moons occur every year. I never, ever implied that. But they do consistently occur and there is no way that God has been ignoring these consistently occuring 13th full moons to make His count 12. Why would he do that? And just as he would not do this, we are to follow suit and not do it either.

You are confusing counting from a set with absolute number in a set. In 936, God is counting from a set, not giving us an absolute number in a set.

Why do you keep mentioning this? Of course God is counting from a set. In the years where God created 12 full moons he counts that set up to 12. In the years where he created 13 full moons he has to be counting up to 13. Otherwise if he only counts up to 12 then he is ignoring his own 13th full moon which he created in the first place. Don't you see this? Why would God being trying to synchronize something that He created in an unsynchronized way in the first place? He wouldn't. Why would God ignore something that he created in the first place? He wouldn't. Which is why we are to count all the full moons, all the time, whenever we count full moons. And if there are 13th full moons in any given year then full moons are surely not the shuhoor that God is talking about in 936. Isn't this as clear as daylight?

You still have not told us why God chose the count of restricted shuhoor to be four.

And I still don't understand why I have to answer this question. Are there supposed to be more? Less? God said there are four and that's it for me. There's no taking away, adding or ignoring. There are four, God said so, and I dont see why I have to give you a reason for that? I think that is a question that you will have to read more of the Quran to get. Because I do not know why he made four of them. That's His choice.

7228 MENTIONS "3ADAD"/NUMBER OF ALL THINGS, NOT THEIR "3IDDAT"/COUNT.

Exactly. The word for to count or to take into account here is AHSAA and God says that he has counted and taken into account the 3adad of all things. And as you have admitted, in those years with 13 full moons, 13 is the 3adad of the full moons. 7228 says God counted (AHSAA) and has taken the 3adad of all things, even the 13th full moons, into account. So if He ignores those 13th full moons when they occur then he is not counting them or taking them into account. So firstly God counts and takes the number of all things into account. Secondly why would God have been ignoring the count of the 13th full moons that he created in the first place? He wouldn't.

YOUR THEORY ALSO COUNTS ONLY 12 "30 DAY MONTHS" IN A SOLAR YEAR AND SKIPS/IGNORES 1/6TH OF A "30 DAY MONTH" EVERY YEAR.

Are we talking about my theory now? Sounds like you wanna change the subject.

You are also ignoring 5-6 days every year to maintain the same synchronization between "months" and seasons. Count can be fractional too, so you are ignoring count of .17 of a 30 day month, out of a count of 12.17.

I can ask you the same question you have been asking. According to you, shahr means "30 day month". If that is so, then the absolute count of "30 day months" in a year is 12.17. Why is God not counting .17 of a month when He created it?

I've explained this over and over again. God has been counting shuhoor? Right? Well, .17 of a shahr is not a shahr in any shape or form, and 5 or 6 days is not a 30 day-month (one of the alternate definitions of shahr) either. But you are changing the topic and you shouldn't be. And I'll warn anyone else that wants to change the topic as well, not to try to convolute this discussion. We will get to my theory but we must resolve all of the issues with this theory first. We are discussing the inconsistencies of the theory you believe in. We can discuss what you feel are the inconsistencies of mine once we finish discussing yours. One at a time is fair and just, and needed in order to maintain clarity.

If you don't ignore the 5-6 days every year and instead count exactly 12 "30 day months" in a year, then you will have to skip an entire 13th "30 day month" every 6th year to maintain synchronization between the "months" and the seasons. Why would God not count this "30 day month" every 6 years when He created it?

What are you talking about? In addition to trying to change the subject you fail to understand that in 365 or 366 days there are only 12 30-day months to be counted. In no way will a month be added or ignored. The 5 or 6 days until the solstice are not a month or a shahr in any way. Not only is God saying that when he counts months/shahr he has been only counting 12, but since he only created 12 30-day shahr/months in 365 or 366 days God is counting all the shuhoor/months that he created in the first place. Those 5 or 6 days that we observe until the solstices or equinoxes, which are the real starters and enders of the year do not and never have consitituted a shahr. Remember in 936 God is counting shuhoor only, and nothing else. Also remember taht 5 or 6 days do not consistute a shahr, so whereas we are obligated to observe what God has created, these 5 to 6 days are irrelevent to the count of the shuhoor, but they are not to be skipped or ignored, because to start a new year we have to wait until the renewal of the solstices or equinoxes.

I decided to address what you thought were inconsistencies in my theory. But I hope you and others don't intend on continuing to change the subject trying to deflect attention off of this Quranically and logically flawed theory instead of dealing with the fact that it is illogical and unquranic for God to have been ignoring the 13th full moons that he created in some years and only counting twelve of them since he created the heavens, the earth and the moon.

The translation of "30 day month" you are proposing for "shahr" causes numerous irreconcilable contradictions and inconsistancies in al-quran, which have been repeatedly pointed out, and have still not been resolved. When you consider all the evidence from al-quran, "shahr" can only mean "full-moon" without causing any contradiction.

You seem to have your mind made up despite the illogical, unquranic and extra-quranic premises that this full-moon theory is based upon. And even despite the fact that this theory is the mirror image of the Talmudic/pre-islamic practice of delaying the 1st shahr afther the completion of the 12th shahr until the actual 2nd shahr whenever the the calendar threatened to fall out of line with the seasons.

Resolve all the contradictions and inconsistencies caused by your interpretations and then we can discuss further. Until then we have to follow the best view and I am out of this dicussion.

This is a baseless attack on your part. You changed the topic to try to focus on my theory and deflect attention from your theory when your theory is the one that is being discussed. And then you threaten not to continue to answer the serious questions about the inconsistencies of your theory. Why? Because you have made up your mind despite the illogic of your own beliefs? Believe what you will. You are enttitled to that, but admit the inconsistencies and that you have no answer for them. Don't tell me that you won't talk because of the beliefs that I hold, which we weren't even discussing.

3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

Exactly. Thank you for that.

Godbless,
Anwar

siki

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Why do you keep mentioning this? Of course God is counting from a set. In the years where God created 12 full moons he counts that set up to 12. In the years where he created 13 full moons he has to be counting up to 13. Otherwise if he only counts up to 12 then he is ignoring his own 13th full moon which he created in the first place. Don't you see this? Why would God being trying to synchronize something that He created in an unsynchronized way in the first place? He wouldn't. Why would God ignore something that he created in the first place? He wouldn't. Which is why we are to count all the full moons, all the time, whenever we count full moons. And if there are 13th full moons in any given year then full moons are surely not the shuhoor that God is talking about in 936. Isn't this as clear as daylight?

Brother Anwar salam

If God has to count 12 out 12, and 13 out of 13, in some years , because according to you, HE has to count his creation, Then,

What is the prupose of counting out from a set?

siki

siki

Peace,

You've got to be kidding me. Why are you going backwards in this conversation? God counts everything he makes. Period. So if He were counting full moons and there are 13 full moons in any year, God would have been counting them. Otherwise you are saying that he is ignoring what he created in the first place. Why won't you get this?

Again there is no way you are going to take these extra-Quranic ideas about when to implement the ban on hunting during the holy/restricted shuhoor. I admitted that 4 restricted shuhoor is obviously both God's count and the actual number that God decided on. These two concepts of number and count are not mutually exclusive. Why do you think they are? I think you are confused on this issue and are just taking a side.
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