Hot/"ramadan" Answer

ayman

Peace Pseudo,

Gather your self; this is like explaining simple logic to 19 followers
Feb is fixed consistent "time length" between two points, this year from 2/1 - 2/28
Is that not so?

This is not so. Those two points are not fixed but are completely arbitrary. Had January been 32 or 29 days then February 1 would be different. Here is what you said earlier

Month is fixed consistent ?time? between two events. This is basic logic.

Here is what I asked you and you are evading to answer

So please show us the two events that mark February so that we can see your "basic" logic.

February 1 and February 28 are not events. They are completely arbitrary. Can you admit that you were wrong or give a straight answer the above question or are you going to continue to evade it and subtly change your words from "events" to the conveniently vague "points" because you realized that what you said was false? Do you want to learn something or do you just want to argue?

You may have something there, interpretation of day can vary as in time of fast (dawn-sunset) or beginning of the last day, perhaps so can month and year depending on context.
2247 and that a day/time at your Lord as a thousand years from what you count
3412 and to Solomon the wind it?s going early time and its departure time
Although it still doesn't help these scenarios
2226 for those who swear away from their women (wives), waiting 4 full-moons
2234 and those who are made to die from you, and they leave spouses, they wait with themselves four full-moons and ten days
492 so who does not find, so fasting 2 full-moons following each other
92 so go in the earth, 4 full-moons
654 if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term/count 3 full-moons
If above are applicable to 100 people in a particular lunar month, all will have the same end date.

Those scenarios are perfectly consistent with the fact that 2228 and 2226 make it clear that "shahr" is counted in the same way as menstruations (i.e., it is counted as an event). You don't see it because you are unable to understand 2228 and how it relates to and clarifies 2226. I tried to explain to you but you can't listen and don't want to read those passages together. Try to put them side by side in Arabic and compare them and you will understand.

Peace,

Ayman

Pseudo

Peace Ayman,

This is not so. Those two points are not fixed but are completely arbitrary. Had January been 32 or 29 days then February 1 would be different. Here is what you said earlier

Month is fixed consistent ?time? between two events. This is basic logic.

Here is what I asked you and you are evading to answer

So please show us the two events that mark February so that we can see your "basic" logic.

February 1 and February 28 are not events. They are completely arbitrary. Can you admit that you were wrong or give a straight answer the above question or are you going to continue to evade it and subtly change your words from "events" to the conveniently vague "points" because you realized that what you said was false? Do you want to learn something or do you just want to argue?

Same with full-moons (fixed time point A to B) except you drop one every 3rd year to align.

Nothing to argue, you brought up and keep bringing up Gregorian Feb (a time length) and large fonts as a diversion. lol

Regardless, every day is an event. Stick to month per Quran (fixed time point A to B).

Those scenarios are perfectly consistent with the fact that 2228 and 2226 make it clear that "shahr" is counted in the same way as menstruations (i.e., it is counted as an event). You don't see it because you are unable to understand 2228 and how it relates to and clarifies 2226. I tried to explain to you but you can't listen and don't want to read those passages together. Try to put them side by side in Arabic and compare them and you will understand.

2226 For those who swear away from their women (wives), waiting 4 months
2228 the divorced (females) wait three "menstrual events"

3 events can happen in a month or never if in menopause, then wait = 3 months (654).

Menstruations have ZERO to do with oath in 2226 or full moons.

Let's put your theory to practice, another equation

584 so fasting two full-moons following each other
...so who was not able, so feeding sixty poor

So two full-moons according to you is FIXED = 29.53059 days

Date = June 7, questions when exactly does June 7 start?
How do you fast .53 days and when is start and end to complete two full-moons fast?

Full-moons 2009
June 7, 212 P.M.
June 21, summer solstice Northern Hemisphere
July 7, 522 A.M.

Which is "red full-moon" tell us your 10 day start - end Ramadan dates for this year, please?

Peace

Rami

Peace all,

I would like to make a contribution to this massive thread. Hope it helps. Alot of people are confused(including myself) about how can 'shahr' mean new moon and at the same time mean a period of time and at the same time mean the moon itself!. The word 'shahr' mean to make public or to reveal. Duh! But was the moon concealed to be revealed in the first place? The answer is yes. This is called the Dark Moon or the Astronomical New Moon. So what is really a 'shahr'. A 'shahr' is the period of time that begins with the appearance of the moon in the sky and ends with its disappearance. So the Dark Moon is not part of the 'Shahr'. So the Quranic months are separated from each other by the Dark Moons.

3639 And the moon We have measured it to appear in stages, until it returns like an old curved sheath.

This mean that the Moon phases start as a crescent and ends as a crescent(returned) and therefore the Dark Moon is not a phase and not part of the shahr(revealed moon).

Regarding the count, we count 12 lunar cycles and restrict 4 consecutive lunar cycles. This count should be separated from the seasons. This count is a specific on/off ratio to hunting and war.

Peace,

Rami

Kadeen

Peace All,
Maybe Im over thinking this, but if ramadan is on the full moon after the summer solstice, then a new month, by whatever name you call it,lets just call it Ramadhan for the time, would begin on June 23rd this year and Night of the Power would be on July 7th. So the fast would begin on the 8th of July. Is this correct?

New Moon----------------Fullmoon(Penumbral eclipse)
Jun 22 1935(735pm) Jul 7 0921(921am)

Quranic Month 1st(Day period of June 23rd)
Night of the Power 16th(July 7)
First day of Fasting/Abstinence 17th(July 8 )
Last Day of Month 30th(July 21)

Just thought about something else. Those who keep 30 days of fasting and follow this would begin on the 17th of one Quranic month and end it in the next month. Unless they begin fasting on the new moon.

Samia

Peace all,

I would like to make a contribution to this massive thread. Hope it helps. Alot of people are confused(including myself) about how can 'shahr' mean new moon and at the same time mean a period of time and at the same time mean the moon itself!. The word 'shahr' mean to make public or to reveal. Duh! But was the moon concealed to be revealed in the first place? The answer is yes. This is called the Dark Moon or the Astronomical New Moon. So what is really a 'shahr'. A 'shahr' is the period of time that begins with the appearance of the moon in the sky and ends with its disappearance. So the Dark Moon is not part of the 'Shahr'. So the Quranic months are separated from each other by the Dark Moons.

3639 And the moon We have measured it to appear in stages, until it returns like an old curved sheath.

This mean that the Moon phases start as a crescent and ends as a crescent(returned) and therefore the Dark Moon is not a phase and not part of the shahr(revealed moon).

Regarding the count, we count 12 lunar cycles and restrict 4 consecutive lunar cycles. This count should be separated from the seasons. This count is a specific on/off ratio to hunting and war.

Peace,

Rami

Salaam Rami

I think part of the confusion is translating "3aada" as "return". The beginning as cited in the verse is "the moon" not the "old curved sheath"; so "3aada" here does not mean return, but "became" which is als a meaning of the word "3aada".

3639 And the moon We have measured it to appear in stages, until it became like an old curved sheath.

ayman

Peace Pseudo,

Same with full-moons (fixed time point A to B) except you drop one every 3rd year to align.
Nothing to argue, you brought up and keep bringing up Gregorian Feb (a time length) and large fonts as a diversion. lol

At least the large font got your attention and you answered. Unfortunately, your answer demonstrates that you are making arguments out of ignorance. Here is the reason

It is absolutely NOT the same. Full-moons are universal events that will happen with or without humans. On the other hand, February 1 to February 28 is a completely arbitrary manmade timeframe that has nothing to do with any events unlike what you falsely said.

This is why if people agree that the month is 20 days from February 1 to 20 then this will be the new February and it will also be a "month".

Regardless, every day is an event. Stick to month per Quran (fixed time point A to B).

You are again arguing from ignorance. If not, then tell us what is the event in the day that marks the period between the beginning and end of your "month"?

The great reading never says "a month is an arbitrary fixed time between manmade point A and B". Please show us such passage.

2226 For those who swear away from their women (wives), waiting 4 months
2228 the divorced (females) wait three "menstrual events"
3 events can happen in a month or never if in menopause, then wait = 3 months (654).
Menstruations have ZERO to do with oath in 2226 or full moons.

I told you to post the ARABIC so that you can see that the word used to count the waiting period in 2228 and 2226 is the same, which indicates that the method of counting (counting events of full-moon and menstruation) is the same.

Let's put your theory to practice, another equation
584 so fasting two full-moons following each other
...so who was not able, so feeding sixty poor
So two full-moons according to you is FIXED = 29.53059 days
Date = June 7, questions when exactly does June 7 start?
How do you fast .53 days and when is start and end to complete two full-moons fast?

Do you think that someone can fast the whole 29.53 days (including the .53) without dying? The two consecutive full-moons are simply markers for when to start and end the fast. Of course the fast is from dawn to sunset and .53 or whatever doesn't factor. It is simply the "dawn to sunset" daily timeframe from one full-moon to the next. How hard can this be to figure out?

Full-moons 2009
June 7, 212 P.M.
June 21, summer solstice Northern Hemisphere
July 7, 522 A.M.
Which is "red full-moon" tell us your 10 day start - end Ramadan dates for this year, please?

The one after the summer solstice is the scorching (red hot) full-moon (both red and happens during the hot time of the year). You need to keep in mind however that the beginning of July 7th on midnight is arbitrary. The new day actually starts at dawn. Therefore, please note that the full-moon will actually happen on the night of July 6th and thus the first day of fasting is July 7th, for 10 days.

From
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php

WASHINGTON, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon

I combined the data from moonrise to moonset for Jul 6 and 7 to avoid the artificial midnight break.

Night of Jul 6, 2009 Eastern Standard Time combined data

Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
1930 0.6 123.5 1.00
1940 2.0 125.1 1.00
1950 3.5 126.6 1.00
2000 4.9 128.2 1.00
2010 6.4 129.9 1.00
2020 7.8 131.6 1.00
2030 9.2 133.3 1.00
2040 10.5 135.0 1.00
2050 11.9 136.8 1.00
2100 13.1 138.7 1.00
2110 14.4 140.5 1.00
2120 15.6 142.5 1.00
2130 16.7 144.4 1.00
2140 17.8 146.5 1.00
2150 18.8 148.5 1.00
2200 19.8 150.6 1.00
2210 20.7 152.8 1.00
2220 21.5 155.0 1.00
2230 22.3 157.2 1.00
2240 23.0 159.5 1.00
2250 23.7 161.8 1.00
2300 24.2 164.1 1.00
2310 24.7 166.5 1.00
2320 25.1 168.9 1.00
2330 25.5 171.3 1.00
2340 25.7 173.8 1.00
2350 25.9 176.2 1.00
0000 26.0 178.7 1.00
0010 26.0 181.1 1.00
0020 26.0 183.6 1.00
0030 25.8 186.1 1.00
0040 25.6 188.5 1.00
0050 25.3 191.0 1.00
0100 24.9 193.4 1.00
0110 24.5 195.8 1.00
0120 23.9 198.1 1.00
0130 23.3 200.5 1.00
0140 22.6 202.7 1.00
0150 21.9 205.0 1.00
0200 21.1 207.2 1.00
0210 20.2 209.4 1.00
0220 19.2 211.5 1.00
0230 18.2 213.6 1.00
0240 17.2 215.7 1.00
0250 16.1 217.7 1.00
0300 14.9 219.6 1.00
0310 13.7 221.5 1.00
0320 12.4 223.4 1.00
0330 11.1 225.2 1.00
0340 9.8 227.0 1.00
0350 8.4 228.8 1.00
0400 7.0 230.5 1.00
0410 5.6 232.2 1.00
0420 4.1 233.8 1.00
0430 2.7 235.4 1.00
0440 1.3 237.0 1.00

Please notice that not only is the moon full but also it follows a low path accross the horizon and rises to a maximum of only 26 degrees so it looks fuller and more red than the next night's moon.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Samia and Rami,

3639 And the moon We have measured it to appear in stages, until it became like an old curved sheath.

Please also note that the word "manazil" has the connotation of "descending". So a more literal translation would be

And the moon We have measured it to appear in descending stages, until it became like an old curved sheath.

Of course, the moon can only "descend" from the full-moon stage.

Peace,

Ayman

Pseudo

Peace Ayman,

You are again arguing from ignorance. If not, then tell us what is the event in the day that marks the period between the beginning and end of your "month"?

The great reading never says "a month is an arbitrary fixed time between manmade point A and B". Please show us such passage.

You are making ignorant assumptions. I stated month (Quran) is fixed. You keep coming back with February (irrelevant to discussion and a diversion).

Days, months, years all start with dawn of a new day, not with new moon or full moon. Thread is about your hot moon. lol

I told you to post the ARABIC so that you can see that the word used to count the waiting period in 2228 and 2226 is the same, which indicates that the method of counting (counting events of full-moon and menstruation) is the same.

So all verses with root means to wait on full-moon? lol

Qul tarabbasoo fa-innee maAAakum mina almutarabbiseena
5231 Say "Wait so that I am with you from the waiting."

Do you think that someone can fast the whole 29.53 days (including the .53) without dying? The two consecutive full-moons are simply markers for when to start and end the fast. Of course the fast is from dawn to sunset and .53 or whatever doesn't factor. It is simply the "dawn to sunset" daily timeframe from one full-moon to the next. How hard can this be to figure out?

It is simple except when using full-moons then it is not consistent

584 So who did not find, so fasting two months following each other
...so who was not able, so feeding sixty poorest of poor

492 so who does not find, so fasting two months following each other

2 full moons fixed = 1 lunar cycle or 29/30 days whereas in below

2234

Widows wait 4 full moons variable = 3 to 4 lunar cycles + 10 days depends on start date.

The one after the summer solstice is the scorching (red hot) full-moon (both red and happens during the hot time of the year).

Why choose the full moon in July and not the full moon in June?
The Old Farmer's Almanac Moon Phase Calendar
http//www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/calendar/index.php?monthyear=6/2009

The full Moon name for this month is Full Strawberry Moon. The Algonquin tribes knew this Moon as a time to gather ripening strawberries. It is also known as the Rose Moon and the Hot Moon.

Last year the June Moon Illusion before the summer solstice was huge
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm

Peace

ayman

Peace Pseudo,

You are making ignorant assumptions. I stated month (Quran) is fixed. You keep coming back with February (irrelevant to discussion and a diversion).

It is not my problem that you don't have the capacity to even know what you stated. Here is the nonsense that you stated

February is consistent with February of that year as is January per standard.
Feb is fixed consistent "time length" between two points, this year from 2/1 - 2/28

Is February a month or not a month?

So when you say "month", you mean something like February or January or whatever, which is why you said the above. So according to you, when the great reading talks about "shahr", it means a month like February. If you disagree then tell us what your Pseudo "month" is.

So all verses with root means to wait on full-moon? lol

You are playing dumb and wasting everyone's time. I already showed you that 2228 is using the same word to wait for menstruations (an event) and I already told you that it means waiting for an event (which is the same way "shahr"/full-moon and menstruations are counted).

Qul tarabbasoo fa-innee maAAakum mina almutarabbiseena
5231 Say "Wait so that I am with you from the waiting."

Exactly, they are waiting for an event. They are not counting every second, minute, hour and day, etc. in a continuous period.

It is simple

You say so because you simply blindly follow sectarians. If not and you really have it figured out then tell us when do you fast and why?

Peace,

Ayman

Pseudo

It is not my problem that you don't have the capacity to even know what you stated. Here is the nonsense that you stated

February is consistent with February of that year as is January per standard.
Feb is fixed consistent "time length" between two points, this year from 2/1 - 2/28

Is February a month or not a month?

Yes, it is a Gregorian month (fixed time length standard between two points). Not per Quran.
Why are you constantly harping about Feb? This nothing but diversion. Topic is your hot moon.

You are playing dumb and wasting everyone's time. I already showed you that 2228 is using the same word to wait for menstruations (an event) and I already told you that it means waiting for an event (which is the same way "shahr"/full-moon and menstruations are counted).

I am not playing and you are truly clueless. The things we count or told to wait on are not the same
Months are not full moons or menstruations. These are not all waiting on full moons because they use same word as you infer

http//www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=4352

Browse Root

Exactly, they are waiting for an event. They are not counting every second, minute, hour and day, etc. in a continuous period.

These are not waiting on full moons, they are waiting on months (a number of days dawns-sunsets)
You said they are waiting on full moons and avoid answering the non consistency

584 So who did not find, so fasting two months following each other
...so who was not able, so feeding sixty poorest of poor

492 so who does not find, so fasting two months following each other

2 full moons fixed = 1 lunar cycle or 29/30 days whereas in below

2234
Widows wait 4 full moons variable = 3 to 4 lunar cycles + 10 days depends on start date.

You fasted in the wrong month, cut short number of days to fast. You are lost and teaching others to do the same

The Old Farmer's Almanac Moon Phase Calendar
http//www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/calendar/index.php?monthyear=6/2009

The full Moon name for this month is Full Strawberry Moon. The Algonquin tribes knew this Moon as a time to gather ripening strawberries. It is also known as the Rose Moon and the Hot Moon.

Last year the June Moon Illusion before the summer solstice was huge
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm

You say so because you simply blindly follow sectarians. If not and you really have it figured out then tell us when do you fast and why?

I fasted today to make up for missed days. Admit this red hot moon is nonsense. The above should be enough to put this to rest.

I'll post my thoughts later (God willing) when I have time in another thread.

Enough said.

Peace

ayman

Peace Pseudo,

Yes, it is a Gregorian month (fixed time length standard between two points). Not per Quran.
Why are you constantly harping about Feb? This nothing but diversion. Topic is your hot moon.

Topic is the correct understanding of the timing. It is not my problem that you are obsessed with my understanding. If you are not obsessed then forget everything I said and tell us what is a month according to your understanding?

You fasted in the wrong month, cut short number of days to fast. You are lost and teaching others to do the same

Before you judge people, tell us when do you fast? Everyone can then see who is fasting at a wrong manmade arbitrary time.

I fasted today to make up for missed days.

When were those missed dates? When quizzed on specifics, you are conveniently vague because you are either clueless or blindly following sectarians.

I'll post my thoughts later when I have time in another thread.

We have been hearing this since you were Nun. So it is obviously just a lazy excuse. Just stop your empty talk and do it right here and now and then I can thank you for it and we can have a balanced two sided discussion. peace

Peace,

Ayman

Supernaut

Topic is your hot moon.

Hahahahahahaha ;D

Real_Truth

I've been reading through all these comments(well skipped a few pages) and all I got was a headache lol! But good debate at least.....I hope this arguement can be resolved by next ramadan

Pseudo

Peace Ayman,

We have been hearing this since you were Nun. So it is obviously just a lazy excuse. Just stop your empty talk and do it right here and now and then I can thank you for it and we can have a balanced two sided discussion. peace

Day/time (for fasting) dawn-sunset
Month/shahr/time lunar cycle (29.53059 days + nights)
Solar year (365.242199 days + nights) has 12 lunar cycles

Simple as that; they are a clock and no need to sync months to years or days to months/years

2197 The Hajj (are in) known months

I am of the opinion these are the months known throughout antiquity by all peoples
http//www.ux1.eiu.edu/~cfjps/1400/FIG02_004.JPG

Also that Hajj starts after new moon (known to all peoples) following summer solstice; this year June 23

http//www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/calendar/index.php?monthyear=6/2009

This solves the inequality issues; replace shahr with lunar cycle/time

2247 and that a day/time at your Lord as a thousand years from what you count

2185 Time Ramadan, which the Quran was descended in it, guidance to the people...
...so who witnessed from you the time, so he should fast it

2226 for those who swear away from their women (wives), waiting 4 cycles
2234 and those who are made to die from you, and they leave spouses, they wait with themselves 4 cycles and 10
492 so who does not find, so fasting 2 cycle times following each other
92 so go in the earth, 4 cycles
3412 and to Solomon the wind its going early time and its departure time
654 if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term/count 3 cycles

Could also be the two equinox months, although will go with your hot moon/s definition. peace

Go-ahead and critic.

Peace

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Ayman,

At the beginning, I agreed completely with the concept of the 'red full-moon' being the true identifier for "shahr ramadhan". However, I'm starting to consider other sources, and all of the factors are not adding up. For example, the Qur'aan explicitly says that this period of abstanation has been decreed for us as it was with 'those before us', or the Jews and Nazarenes ("people of the scripture&quot. Well, the Jews or Nazarenes never used the 'red moon' as an identifier at all. In fact, they considered the onset of a month to begin at the sighting of the new moon, not the full moon. The followed a completely luni-solar calendar (primarily lunar), which seems very logical in this perspective... Since their years have approximately 12 months in a lunar system (actually 12.4 months), their calendar loses 11 days every year, and when they add a 13th month into the equation, they gain 19 days to keep up with the solar year cycle. Based on this, it's very likely that this is exactly what the Qur'aan was talking about when it mentioned those who add a 13th cycle into their year, since the 'shahr' (month/moon) count with God is 12.

I agree with your perceptions regarding this when it comes to other external factors, but some of these ideas are inconsistent with the teachings of the Torah, which is therefore contradictory towards the Reading... Is it possible that the "shahr" is referring to a new moon instead of a full moon? Or is it possible that "ramadhan" was actually the name of a period of time (i.e. a month) during the pre-Qur'aanic period? Your depiction of the Qur'aanic calendar is very similar to the ancient and modern Jewish calendar; it differs in the identification of the period. You say the beginning of a month is determined by the sighting of the full moon, while the Jews and Nazarenes insist on sighting the new moon, just like sectarian Muslims...

I also agree with the characterization of "ramadhan" referring to 'scorching heat', and not referring to the name of an Arabic month. It's just the interpretation of "shahru" that's making me wonder. Based on the scriptural precedents in the Torah, it seems more likely that the "shahr" would be referring to the new moon, not the full moon, therefore alluding to a specific month. So, the passage could be written, according to this theory, as

The new moon of scorching heat is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses the new moon, let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling, so a count of other days. God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify God for what He guided you, and perhaps you would be appreciative. (2185)

So, is it possible that the "shahr" is referring to a new moon instead of the full one? Don't they consist of equal time periods (i.e. waiting 2 full moons is equal to waiting 2 new moons)? Since both of them are based on the actual natural factors in the universe, determined as timing mechanisms, neither of these can be accurately called "arbitrary" or "inconsistent". What do you think? Can this time or occurance called "shahru ramadhan" be referring to the sighting of the new moon during a hot time of the year (i.e. during the summer solstice)?

Peace,

Ahmad

Rami

Peace Bilal,

Yes the Quran states that the fasting is ordained to us as it was ordained to the previous generations. So it must be at least in the Book of Moses. And no it's not found there. Even the Yom Kippur was made a fasting day by the traditions. There is not even Salat except later on and it is very elusive in the Hebrew scriptures. Although the idea that we can learn the Hajj from the Torah is interesting which is supported by the fact that the Hajj months are well known and if we don't know, we should ask the people of the Zikr(which is the Book of Moses). Regarding Ramadan, I can't find anything in the Hebrew calendar like it.

Peace,

Rami

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Rami,

Yes the Quran states that the fasting is ordained to us as it was ordained to the previous generations. So it must be at least in the Book of Moses. And no it's not found there. Even the Yom Kippur was made a fasting day by the traditions. There is not even Salat except later on and it is very elusive in the Hebrew scriptures. Although the idea that we can learn the Hajj from the Torah is interesting which is supported by the fact that the Hajj months are well known and if we don't know, we should ask the people of the Zikr(which is the Book of Moses). Regarding Ramadan, I can't find anything in the Hebrew calendar like it.

I completely agree, brother. Fasting is definately mentioned in the Torah, but not during the period of the Islaamic "shahru ramadhan". The Jews were told to hold special significance to the days of Yom Kippur, Sukkot, and Passover, not to mention Shabbat (Sabbath) and other special holidays occurring in certain months. However, none of these are in line with the sectarian concept of Islaamic "ramadhan" at all. The "hajj" months should also be mentioned in the Torah, since they're declared to be well known" by the Jews and Nazarenes... I can understand the Jewish format of prayer (or Islaamic salaat) because they offered sacrifices during the periods of (1) morning, (2) noon/afternoon, and (3) evening, which was replaced by their three daily prayers. I think these are in harmony with the Islaamic salaat observances too, and we should also uphold three daily observances. This is fine. But many other things are starting to conflict in some serious areas. Since the Qur'aan confirms (authenticates) the Torah, then if something conflicts with the Torah, it also conflicts with the teachings of the Qur'aan... In order to fully understand the Islaamic standpoint on various monotheistic doctrines, it may be necessary to examine the teachings of the previous scripture, the Torah...

Peace,

Ahmad

Rami

Peace Rami,

I completely agree, brother. Fasting is definately mentioned in the Torah, but not during the period of the Islaamic "shahru ramadhan". The Jews were told to hold special significance to the days of Yom Kippur, Sukkot, and Passover, not to mention Shabbat (Sabbath) and other special holidays occurring in certain months. However, none of these are in line with the sectarian concept of Islaamic "ramadhan" at all. The "hajj" months should also be mentioned in the Torah, since they're declared to be well known" by the Jews and Nazarenes... I can understand the Jewish format of prayer (or Islaamic salaat) because they offered sacrifices during the periods of (1) morning, (2) noon/afternoon, and (3) evening, which was replaced by their three daily prayers. I think these are in harmony with the Islaamic salaat observances too, and we should also uphold three daily observances. This is fine. But many other things are starting to conflict in some serious areas. Since the Qur'aan confirms (authenticates) the Torah, then if something conflicts with the Torah, it also conflicts with the teachings of the Qur'aan... In order to fully understand the Islaamic standpoint on various monotheistic doctrines, it may be necessary to examine the teachings of the previous scripture, the Torah...

Peace,

Ahmad

???BOGUS SCRIPTURE ???

Pseudo

Peace,

Although the idea that we can learn the Hajj from the Torah is interesting which is supported by the fact that the Hajj months are well known and if we don't know, we should ask the people of the Zikr(which is the Book of Moses). Regarding Ramadan, I can't find anything in the Hebrew calendar like it.

It's not what is being implied, read verses in context, Torah is in Quran else no need to repeat stories.

See reply http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597564.msg192940#msg192940

New moon and it's cycles were known and used by all peoples across the world. Issues and intercalation are due to trying to sync days to lunar cycles or lunar cycles to solar cycles. No need

count days dawn-sunset
count years solstice-solstice
count 12 months (new moon-new moon) in year
Restart count for next 12 lunar cycles with new moon after solstice (start Ramadan next dawn)

1825 And they stayed in their cave three hundred years and add nine

300 solar years = (lunar cycles x 12) 309 lunar years

2827 He said "That I, I want , that I marry you to one (of) my two daughters, those two, on that you hire to me (yourself for) eight hijajin, so if you completed ten...

Hajj equated with years, one Ramadan/Hajj per year, 300 in 300 years, not 309 as would be case under current Islamic calendar.

Peace

ayman

Peace Pseudo,

Go-ahead and critic.

Thank you for sharing your understanding. Sharing your understanding has already helped people see a different angle and hopefully will help everyone get closer to the best understanding. I am very familiar with your theory because at one point a few years ago before I reached my present understanding, I actually considered it. Therefore, don't take what I am going to say as criticism targeted at you. I am merely sharing the same exact critic that I told myself as I was going through my own thought process on the matter.

Day/time (for fasting) dawn-sunset
Month/shahr/time lunar cycle (29.53059 days + nights)
Solar year (365.242199 days + nights) has 12 lunar cycles
Simple as that; they are a clock and no need to sync months to years or days to months/years

This was the first problem that led me to abandon that "shahr" means "lunar cycle" and instead means "full-moon". Whether it is the lunar cycle based on the new moon or the full moon, it is a fact that the solar year doesn't have 12 lunar cycles. the fact is that it has 12.37 cycles. So this certainly violates 936, which clearly tells us that we should always count only 12 "shahr".

2197 The Hajj (are in) known months
I am of the opinion these are the months known throughout antiquity by all peoples

Unfortunately, there are no such "months" known "throughout antiquity by all peoples". In fact, people have always used and continued to use different calendars with different months. This is reality.

On the other hand, what ALL people knew were the full-moon universal cosmic events. Therefore, all civilizations have always known the harvest full-moon and it is not a coincidence that it precisely corresponds to the feast/"hajj" Sukkot of the people of the book. It is not a coincidence that this biggest feast ("al-hajj al-akbar&quot is precisely full-moon number FOUR counting from the scorching/"ramadhan" full moon after the summer solstice.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvest_moon

It is also not a coincidence that ALL people knew that the hunting restriction was lifted and hunting resumed afterwards and therefore, the next full-moon is called Hunter Moon

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter's_moon

The name was used by people all over the world. In fact even Native Americans who didn't come into contact with Europeans until after the discovery of the Americas, used the same exact name Hunter Moon as the Europeans.

So indeed everyone knew about the full-moons marking the feast/"hajj" and hunting restrictions in the summer when crops are plentiful and wild animals are too young. They also knew about the lifting of the hunting restrictions after this period and thus the next full-moon was named Hunter moon by people from all over, even people who never came into contact.

Also that Hajj starts after new moon (known to all peoples) following summer solstice; this year June 23
http//www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/calendar/index.php?monthyear=6/2009

There are several major problems with the above

The feasts of the people of the book don't start with the new moon. They start with the full-moon. The festival of Matzot and the feast of hagg HaSukkot start at the time of the full moons. In particular, the hagg HaSukkot, the most important feast (al-hajj al-akbar) for the people of the book (and all people), falls on the last full-moon of the restricted full-moons starting from the scorching full-moon.
The term "new moon" never occurs in the great reading. So this is a completely invented meaning. On the other hand, the meaning of "shahr" as full-moon is clearly given in Classical Arabic dictionaries.
The new moon is impossible to witness by the vast majority of people. Now and in the past, people had to rely on religious/political authorities to tell them about when the new moon occurs. This is probably the main reason why it is in the best interest of religious authorities to use the new moon and not the full-moon for timing.

This solves the inequality issues; replace shahr with lunar cycle/time
2247 and that a day/time at your Lord as a thousand years from what you count
2185 Time Ramadan, which the Quran was descended in it, guidance to the people...
...so who witnessed from you the time, so he should fast it
2226 for those who swear away from their women (wives), waiting 4 cycles
2234 and those who are made to die from you, and they leave spouses, they wait with themselves 4 cycles and 10
492 so who does not find, so fasting 2 cycle times following each other
92 so go in the earth, 4 cycles
3412 and to Solomon the wind its going early time and its departure time
654 if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term/count 3 cycles

This creates major inequalities and inconsistencies

It creates a major inconsistency between 2226 and 2228, which clearly show that we are consistently counting events and not a fixed period.
It creates inequality between 2185, which now according to you says that the great reading was descended it in a cycle, while 971 clearly says that it was descended in a night. The correct understanding of "shahr" as "full-moon" automatically resolves when this night is and I didn't even notice it until sister Marie pointed my attention to it.
It creates inequality between 2184 and 2185 since now according to you the abstinence is for a complete cycle (~29 days) but 2184 clearly says a few (ma3doodat) days (3-10 days).
It creates redundancy in 2185 since if it was known that it was a cycle (29 days) then "complete the count" is redundant and useless info.
It violates the clear command in 936 to count only 12 "shahr" because using "cycle" to mean "shahr" results in counting 12.37 and not 12. The only way that we can possibly count 12 is if "shahr" is not a continuous period but is an integer event.

Could also be the two equinox months, although will go with your hot moon/s definition.

No, it cannot be the equinoxes as per 1712. In 1712 we are clearly told that the god made the night and day for knowing the number of years. The only way to use the night and day to know the number of years is to use them to mark the period between the shortest/longest night/day and the next shortest/longest night/day. These are the solstices and not the equinoxes. Of course, the etymology of "ramadhan" points to the summer solstice and it also not a coincidence that it fits perfectly with everything we know about harvest feasts/"hajj" and hunting restriction.

As a side note, what you are doing (without realizing it) is that by using to the new moon after the solstice, you would be counting 12 new moons in a year and skipping the occasional 13th one. But this contradicts your own understanding of "shahr" being a "cycle" and not an "event".

As you can see from above, the only criticism you had was of ?shahr? as ?full-moon? because you thought there is an issue of inequality. This is not a real issue since inequality is not an issue in the same way that inequality in counting the waiting period based on menstruations is not an issue as is made clear by 2226 and 2228. On the other hand, your theory of ?shahr? meaning ?lunar cycle starting with the new-moon? creates a plethora of problems and inconsistencies.

As I said, I already know all the major problems with your theory because at one point I held the same view as you and the critique that I said to you above, I had already said to myself. May we all be from those who hear what is being said and then follow the best.

Peace,

Ayman