Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace brother Zlatan,
"but for he who cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the pilgrimage and seven when he returns" 2196
If one is already fasting how then the expiation could be the fasting during the same time?
There are several possible answers. Which answer is most correct will depend on
- A proper understanding of 2196.
- Possibly, the context of war from 2190-195 must also be taken into account in relationship to the interpretation of what could be construed as the cutting of the hair.
- Also, if one continues reading in 2196, one will see that there is a certain group that is exempted from this rule. However, it is no clear what they should do instead of the prescribed abstinence. One interpretation is that they should abstain the whole ten days during the "7ajj"/debate. So for them, the "7ajj" duration is 10 days.
- A proper understanding of "7ajj" and what it is. Also, if it is one time at any of the "ash-hur ma3lumat" or if it occurs at all the "ash-hur ma3lumat".
Point 4 is actually the most important point. I think that once we properly understand "7ajj" then the picture will become clearer. To start, please let me know what you understand "7ajj" to be.
My understanding is that "7ajj" is a gathering like the annual fair. People come from all over to trade, get benefits, meet other people, and be reminded of The God's favors. We are told in 2227 that Ibrahim invited people "WITH/BI al-7ajj" and not "TO/ILA al-7ajj" to witness benefits. You can only invite ALL people with something beneficial and non-descriminatory. We are told in 2827 that Moses was hired to work for 8 "7ijaj". What was hired to do? Clearly, he was hired to work and tend for sheep (2823-24) and NOT for any religious pilgrimage. What does working and tending sheep has to do with "7ajj"? Naturally, people work and produce so that they can BARGAIN with their products. Bargaining is a kind of debate and it results in witnessing benefits by the seller and the buyer. Thus, "al-7ajj"/the debate is like the annual fair where people work all year and then go to sell and/or buy products. Mid summer - early fall is the natural time for such markets because produce and livestock are plentiful. The large gathering of "7ajj" provides a good opportunity to remind as many people as possible of The God. It is also an opportunity for the advantaged to donate and provide for the disadvantaged.
Thus, I think that the concept of "7ajj" has nothing to do with any religious challenge no more than it has to do with a holy pilgrimage. It is an entirely secular concept.
I think that once we agree on a proper understanding of "7ajj" then we can address the other issues and answer your question together.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace be upon you Ayman,
My understanding is that "7ajj" is a gathering like the annual fair. People come from all over to trade, get benefits, meet other people, and be reminded of The God's favors. We are told in 2227 that Ibrahim invited people "WITH/BI al-7ajj" and not "TO/ILA al-7ajj" to witness benefits. You can only invite ALL people with something beneficial and non-descriminatory. We are told in 2827 that Moses was hired to work for 8 "7ijaj". What was hired to do? Clearly, he was hired to work and tend for sheep (2823-24) and NOT for any religious pilgrimage. What does working and tending sheep has to do with "7ajj"? Naturally, people work and produce so that they can BARGAIN with their products. Bargaining is a kind of debate and it results in witnessing benefits by the seller and the buyer. Thus, "al-7ajj"/the debate is like the annual fair where people work all year and then go to sell and/or buy products. Mid summer - early fall is the natural time for such markets because produce and livestock are plentiful. The large gathering of "7ajj" provides a good opportunity to remind as many people as possible of The God. It is also an opportunity for the advantaged to donate and provide for the disatvantaged.
Thus, I think that the concept of "7ajj" has nothing to do with any religious challenge no more than it has to do with a holy pilgrimage. It is an entirely secular concept.
I think that once we agree on a proper understanding of "7ajj" then we can address the other issues and answer your question together.
WoW!!! I need to reflect on that. Very good work indeed Ayman.
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God blessings on all,
I will put my understanding in points
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For the compensation of killing someone to be to fast for a number of months does not give that number of months any particular signifance other than that the Koran says that that is the number of months that we are to fast in.
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Therefore, if someone is prescribed to fast during the Pilgrimage for 10 days that does not make the Pilgrimage and that number of days equal. If the Koran had said that they must fast 2 months would we assume that the pilgrimage should be two months then? That would be jumping to conclusions.
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The passage where Moses (God bless him) works for a man of Midian for 8 pilgrimages obviously says that the people of Midian engaged in a pilgrimage and used it to refer to time periods. Just as we do. We can say I want you to work for me for 5 easters, or for 5 summers or from 5 winters. Depending on the context we can mean all 5 years or literally for just those 5 seasons.
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So the people of Midian had a pilgrimage. What is so wrong about that? Just about every people in the world has some sort of pilgrimage that they make annually, weekly, bianually, biweekly, or even haphazardly.
So if we are to fast 10 days during the pilgrimage for whatever reason how does that make the pilgrimage equal to 10 days.
Godbless,
Anwar -
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Peace be upon you Anwar,
Just about every people in the world has some sort of pilgrimage that they make annually, weekly, bianually, biweekly, or even haphazardly.
What are some examples?
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God's blessings on you Kyle,
Jews make pilgrimages to the wailing wall, Christians make pilgrimages to
Jerusalem, Catholics still make pilgrimages to Rome, Muslims in West Africa make pilgrimages to the tombs of their saints, other Muslims do the same in Iran and other countries. Buddhist make pilgrimages to the statues and relics and tomb of Buddha. Hindus make pilgrimages to the Ganges river, which they consider holy, etc. etc.
Many peoples throughout the world have made pilgrimages to different things. The ancient greeks made pilgrimages to oracles. If you consider it holy and you go to visit it it is considered a pilgrimage. Some pilgrimages are coordinated and some are not. Some are for certain seasons and others can be done at any time. But they are all pilgrimages.Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace brother Ayman, all...
In regards to the full moon being easier to sight and how we can tell if its 'full', i had some observations...last month i tried to observe if the moon was full and during that time it was high and it was quite difficult to tell if it was full or off by a little...this month a few days back i noticed it very close/closer to the horizon and it was surprisingly easy to tell it was full...
Here is an interesting link regarding this phenomenon
http//facstaff.uww.edu/mccreadd/sectionI.html
Regards,
Nadia -
Peace sister Nadia,
In regards to the full moon being easier to sight and how we can tell if its 'full', i had some observations...last month i tried to observe if the moon was full and during that time it was high and it was quite difficult to tell if it was full or off by a little...this month a few days back i noticed it very close/closer to the horizon and it was surprisingly easy to tell it was full...
Here is an interesting link regarding this phenomenon
http//facstaff.uww.edu/mccreadd/sectionI.html
It is amazing when what the book tells us is verified through empirical observation. I certainly look forward to the full-moon of scorching heat next month. It will come one day after the summer solstice. Being so close to the solstice it should be more spectacular and even easier to make out than the full moon you saw.
Peace and best regards,
Ayman
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Peace Soof,
I have been wondering if there are any established counter arguments by anyone to your understanding of shahr ramadan? If so could you please direct me to them?
I think that the main counter arguments that I have seen fall into three categories.
There is the traditional understanding which has to ignore the meaning of the word "ramada" and assume it to be meaningless. It also has to ignore the contradictions brought about by considering "shahr" to mean a calendar month as opposed to a cosmic phenomenon (full-moon, a meaning indicated in the Classical Arabic dictionary Lisan Al-3arab). For example the contradiction created in 2185 by supposedly making the fast for a month and then turning round and saying that fasting is for a few days.
There is Layth's understanding which, as far as I know, corrects the traditional understanding about month and acknowledges that the word "shahr" means full moon but like traditional understanding ignores the meaning of the word "ramadan" and thus puts the timing around the winter solstice.
There is also Anwar (Progod) who takes into account the correct meaning of "ramadan" and doesn't ignore it but sticks to the traditional understanding and resulting contradictions of taking "shahr" to mean "month" as opposed to a cosmic phenomenon (full moon).
As usual, any other types of counter arguments are welcome.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace
Thanks, Do you know of anyone else completely separate from free-minds.com come to your understanding regarding the 10 day period and shahr ramadhan? Your article is the only one that looks at it from this angle to my knowledge. Not for any discredit of your study, but out of curiosity.
Go in peace.
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Peace Soof,
Thanks, Do you know of anyone else completely separate from free-minds.com come to your understanding regarding the 10 day period and shahr ramadhan? Your article is the only one that looks at it from this angle to my knowledge. Not for any discredit of your study, but out of curiosity.
Long after the article was written, I came accross information on other sites about Jewish festivals. I found it interesting that several of them are also timed according to the full moon. One festival in particular, if I remember correctly is the feast of Tebernacles (I believe this is what it is called) is a harvest feast which seems similar to the hagg/feast talked about in the great reading.
I don't think much research has been done in this area since all orientalists simply assume that the sectarian timing is the correct one and no one has bothered to look into this and verify it. There is definitely more research needed in this and many other areas taken for granted.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salamun alaikum,
To Ayman,I read your article again on ramadan/ determining the calendar and maashaAllah it is very informative. I have not yet come to my own conclusion because I have not done my own study on this topic. When I do, I do plan on referring back to your article and Layth's on the topic to see where we agree or disagree and then can have further discussions except as Allah wills. I do have 2 questions for you and one note. The first question is that you seem to disagree with Layth's conclusion that the calendar should be luni-solar and if you do can you please share why. How do you interpret the 2 ayat 105 and 1712? Second, I was noticing that if we take shahr to mean full-moon which I agree with, have you found that ALL uses of the word shahr in the reading have this meaning? For example, I noticed and please correct me if you feel that I am wrong in some way, if we take the meaning as full-moon instead of the contemporary meaning of a full month of 29/30 days,then in the ayat 584 (also 492) would the fast actually equal '1 month of 30 days' instead of 2 months of 60 days' since we are using the 'full-moon' as the marker? I am asking is that what the verse is saying that we see one full moon and fast UNTIL we see the next full moon? Do you see the difference I am talking about? Also in the verses regarding the waiting period for women, in verse 654, it says 3 ashhur. Would it be that we see the first, start waiting, see the second, still waiting and see the third and it's over, which would equal 2 full months (contemporary) and not 3?
As far as the note, you asked at the end of your article about what's the difference between sanah and 'aam if any. I was also puzzled by this and wanted to know so I compiled these verses, did you do further study on this? Here are the verses I found 2259, 7130, 928,37,126, 105, 1242,47,49, 1712, 1811,25, 2040, 2247, 23112, 2618, 205, 2914, 304, 3114, 325, 704 Then I noticed by the God's mercy that verse 3114 and 4615 and talking about the same thing, the fisaal (separation) of the child from his mother. In 4615 it says the fisaal is 30 shahr and in 3114 it's 'aamain, 2 'aams. If they aren't equal then wouldn't that be a contradiction in the reading and if they are equal then isn't that the answer? If 2 'aams equals 30 shahr then what are the implications of this and it's significance that there is a special arabic word for this time period? Subhanallah. Just thought I would share this finding just in case you didn't and if you did, can you share your understanding?
Also I wanted to post a link to this article (http//www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=73013) here since it's clearly related to this discussion and I was clearly surprised that some Christians are now debating this topic. I sent an email with links to you two's articles. I am sure that they would be surprised to see such dealt with in the reading despite all of the negativity surrounding this revelation. It seems that it's something that the 'people of the book' have forgotten and maybe that's why the God mentions it clearly in His book. It IS something important in our obligation/ system.
Looking forward to your reply.
Umm Tariq
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Peace Umm Tariq,
Thank you for your comments and it is great to see you on the forum.
I read your article again on ramadan/ determining the calendar and maashaAllah it is very informative. I have not yet come to my own conclusion because I have not done my own study on this topic. When I do, I do plan on referring back to your article and Layth's on the topic to see where we agree or disagree and then can have further discussions except as Allah wills. I do have 2 questions for you and one note. The first question is that you seem to disagree with Layth's conclusion that the calendar should be luni-solar and if you do can you please share why. How do you interpret the 2 ayat 105 and 1712?
I don't disagree that the timing of the hunting restriction, the abstinence and the feast (hagg) is based on a luni-solar cycle. What I disagree with is the term "calendar". The god doesn't give us a calendar and doesn't command us to use a certain calendar. Calendars have things like the days of the week and so on that are completely arbitrary. One can use any calendar as long as they don't change the timing of the hunting restriction in order to violate what the god restricted as warned against in 936. The timing described by the god is independent of any calendar. It is based on clear cosmic phenomenon. Of course, this god-given timing mechanism is very effective so it is probably a good idea to use a calendar that is aligned with this timing but it is not compulsory.
Second, I was noticing that if we take shahr to mean full-moon which I agree with, have you found that ALL uses of the word shahr in the reading have this meaning?
The meaning of "full-moon" fits all the uses of the word "shahr" in the great reading.
For example, I noticed and please correct me if you feel that I am wrong in some way, if we take the meaning as full-moon instead of the contemporary meaning of a full month of 29/30 days,then in the ayat 584 (also 492) would the fast actually equal '1 month of 30 days' instead of 2 months of 60 days' since we are using the 'full-moon' as the marker? I am asking is that what the verse is saying that we see one full moon and fast UNTIL we see the next full moon? Do you see the difference I am talking about?
Yes, it would mean to fast the period covering two full-moons (about 30 days).
Also in the verses regarding the waiting period for women, in verse 654, it says 3 ashhur. Would it be that we see the first, start waiting, see the second, still waiting and see the third and it's over, which would equal 2 full months (contemporary) and not 3?
It would depend on when the full-moon occurred after the couple is separated. If it just occurred the day before separation then waiting for three full-moons would mean waiting for about 90 days. If the full moon occurs the day after the couple is separated then it would be about 60 days. So the waiting period varies between 60-90 days. This is the same as when the women are asked to count menstruations. The waiting period will be different depending on when the woman?s menstruation occurred.
As far as the note, you asked at the end of your article about what's the difference between sanah and 'aam if any. I was also puzzled by this and wanted to know so I compiled these verses, did you do further study on this? Here are the verses I found 2259, 7130, 928,37,126, 105, 1242,47,49, 1712, 1811,25, 2040, 2247, 23112, 2618, 205, 2914, 304, 3114, 325, 704 Then I noticed by the God's mercy that verse 3114 and 4615 and talking about the same thing, the fisaal (separation) of the child from his mother. In 4615 it says the fisaal is 30 shahr and in 3114 it's 'aamain, 2 'aams. If they aren't equal then wouldn't that be a contradiction in the reading and if they are equal then isn't that the answer? If 2 'aams equals 30 shahr then what are the implications of this and it's significance that there is a special arabic word for this time period? Subhanallah. Just thought I would share this finding just in case you didn't and if you did, can you share your understanding?
4615 talks about pregnancy and weaning together being 30 full-moons. On the other hand, 3114 talks about the weaning alone being within two years. So according to 3114 two years is the maximum period for weaning but it could be less. The two passages are talking about two different but overlapping periods and not the same period. For example, if the pregnancy was 9 full-moons then the weaning would be 21 full-moons. On the other hand, if the baby was premature and say he was born in only 7 full-moons then the weaning would be 23 full moons. In either case, the weaning would be within the two years.
Also I wanted to post a link to this article (http//www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=73013) here since it's clearly related to this discussion and I was clearly surprised that some Christians are now debating this topic. I sent an email with links to you two's articles. I am sure that they would be surprised to see such dealt with in the reading despite all of the negativity surrounding this revelation. It seems that it's something that the 'people of the book' have forgotten and maybe that's why the God mentions it clearly in His book. It IS something important in our obligation/ system.
Thank you for the link to the article. I wasn?t aware that the issue of the timing was being challenged in Christian circles. It is finally about time. I think that what rational Christians are starting to realize is that the seven day week is a completely manmade arbitrary timeframe and that it is not tied to any objective cosmic phenomenon. Many have also undoubtedly been disturbed by the Roman pagan origin of the seven day week. I think that the issue addressed in the great reading is broader than this. It is not just about the week but it is about ?al-sabt? i.e., ?day of rest? or ?Holidays? in general. The god is indicating that we shouldn?t take a day of rest based on the false premise that the god authorized or required us to rest on that day. Based on the great reading, I don?t think that it matters if this ?day of rest? occurs every seven days, every month, every year or whatever time interval. So the condemnation of such practice equally applies to weekly Holidays such as Friday, Saturday or Sunday and to annual Holidays such as Eid, Christmas and so on. In general, I believe that it is OK to take time to relax and rest but we shouldn?t claim that the god ordered us to do so or authorized such specific days.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
Thanks so much for your post, it helped to clarify alot for me.
I agree with you about using the term calendar, it's a strong argument. I looked over the article again and I see you mentioned the 'year' being solar. However, can this be summarized as we follow a solar year but yet we use the moon to determine certain events?
Excuse me for my mistake in the verses about pregnancy and weaning, I see the difference thanks. I guess we are still left to figure out whether there is a difference between 'sanah' and 'aam'.
I got a reply from the woman of that article. I am amazed at how open minded she is and the reply was really welcoming. I also shared with her the same point that the God mentions about the sabt in relation to previous people but He is not asking us to observe such. We are concerned about the fasting, hajj and the forbidden time period.
Thank you again and as more questions arise or I need help in clarifying an issue I will post except as the God wills.
Umm Tariq
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Peace all;
It is one month according to your Lord; let me tell you why?(٥
Ramadan month is the in which was sent down the Qur'an as a guide to mankind also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment. So everyone of you witness that month should fast it, but if anyone is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you He does not want to put you to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful. (2-185)Thus, the fasting is for a month of Ramadan.
Now how long is one month?
(٦
The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve so ordained by Him in the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred; that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves. (9-36)
Thus, one year is 12 months. And as we know, one year is the time when 4 seasons are completed (Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter), 365 days. Thus, one month is about 30 days. And if one month is ten days, then the year would be 12 month X 10 = 120 days (two seasons only).
Moreover, the following would show the length of one month
(٥
We have enjoined on man Kindness to his parents in pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth. The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is thirty months. At length, when he reaches the age of full strength and attains forty years, he says "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favor, which Thou hast bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness such as Thou mayest approve; and be gracious to me in my issue. Truly have I turned to Thee and truly do I bow (to Thee) in Islam." (46-15)
Is that how long does it take and not 30 month X 10 days= 300 days
(٤
Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same) for those who carry (life within their wombs) their period is until they deliver their burdens and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. (65-4)
As we all know, the woman gets her period every month (average every thirty days)
Thus, we have to Fast for one Month that equals 30 days average.
(٩
They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say they are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for men, and for pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back; it is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors and fear Allah that ye may prosper. (2-189)
Thus? the mark of Ramadan month is the beginning of new moon.
Peace
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Salaams All,
So everyone of you witness that month should fast it
It is using lanes and the Quranic Dictionry something along the lines;
So everyone who sees or is witness to an act of treachury must shun it but if one doesn't realise the treachury they must shun it when they come to such a realisation later.
Of course we are all entiitled to our idols though , arn't we?
And remember just one month is named out a dozen?
And thirteen moons in a twelve month year!?
my conclusion;
There arn't any twelve months in the quran at all.
God Bless all.
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Peace Belal,
Please don't post the same exact comment in several threads. As far as I know the forum rules don't allow double posting, let alone triple-posting.
Moderators I will address Belal's comments here on this thread.
It is one month according to your Lord; let me tell you why?
(٥
Ramadan month is the in which was sent down the Qur'an as a guide to mankind also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment. So everyone of you witness that month should fast it, but if anyone is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you He does not want to put you to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful. (2-185)
Thus, the fasting is for a month of Ramadan.But 2184 is clearly telling us that the fast is for a few days (ayam ma3doodat). So now you have created a contradiction between 2184 and 2185. Also, why would you need to complete the count of a month? A month is a month and there is no completion of a count issue. The only way that counting would be an issue is if "shahr ramadan" (the scorching full-moon) is a marker and not a timeframe.
Now how long is one month?
(٦
The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve so ordained by Him in the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred; that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves. (9-36)
Thus, one year is 12 months. And as we know, one year is the time when 4 seasons are completed (Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter), 365 days. Thus, one month is about 30 days. And if one month is ten days, then the year would be 12 month X 10 = 120 days (two seasons only).But 12x30 is 360 not 365. Why are you ignoring those extra five days? In fact there is NO calendar in the world that always has 30 days in a month.
Moreover, the following would show the length of one month
(٥
We have enjoined on man Kindness to his parents in pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth. The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is thirty months. At length, when he reaches the age of full strength and attains forty years, he says "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favor, which Thou hast bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness such as Thou mayest approve; and be gracious to me in my issue. Truly have I turned to Thee and truly do I bow (to Thee) in Islam." (46-15)
Is that how long does it take and not 30 month X 10 days= 300 daysThe word "shahr" means "full-moon" it doesn't mean 10 days. So your entire argument is based on nothing but a misunderstanding.
(٤
Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same) for those who carry (life within their wombs) their period is until they deliver their burdens and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. (65-4)
As we all know, the woman gets her period every month (average every thirty days)
Thus, we have to Fast for one Month that equals 30 days average.The average for menstruation is not 30 days. No woman I know menstruates for 30 days continuously (thank god because this would be a pretty miserable thing). Menstruation, like the full-moon is an event. So when the god is telling women in 2228 to count three menstruations, how do they count them? Do they count 90 days? Or do they count three menstruations (three events). Those two things are not the same and depending on when the woman's menstruation last occurred may give totally different results.
(٩
They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say they are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for men, and for pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back; it is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors and fear Allah that ye may prosper. (2-189)
Thus? the mark of Ramadan month is the beginning of new moon.This translation is false. The word "ahilat" doesn't mean new moons. It means crescents in general (both the waning and the waxing crescent). Also, the term "mawaqeet/meeqat"" in 2189 is used in the great reading to describe timing of when something ends not only when something begins.
Peace,
Ayman