Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Salaam
Finally, for those who after all the clear signs are still confused or choose to confuse themselves, I am 100% certain that the god knows that any average person is aware that 3+7=10 and since the god is not addressing the mentally retarded in the great reading, the only reason to state the obvious in 2196 is to clarify that completing the count of a few is indeed 10.
This sentence seems not to contain any koranic evidence.
It is rather an assumption that -completing a count of a few- should always be until ten.
From verse 2196 one can learn that a count until ten is an example of a count that completes a count of a few - not that it is the only way of completing a count of a few.It would be very particular to assume that our Creator gave the details of the time-frame of only special occasions of fasting for some special people and not for the general communal fast of -shahr ramadan-.
492 - a fast of two consecutive full moons in case of unvoluntary manslaughter and one can not compensate in another prescribed way.
584 - a fast of two consecutive full moons in case of a certain wrong manner of divorce.
589 - a fast of three day in case of breaking a serious oath and one can not compensate in another prescribed way.
2196 - a dual fast of 3 + 7 days for a special group of visitors of the -hajj-.
To assume that for the communal fast of -shahr ramadan- the believers are not precisely instructed and should assume from sources next to the Koran that a count has to be until 10 seems to be particular - since the details of the verses mentioned above.
Verse 2185 seems to be complete and detailed in this matter - no assumptions needed.
2185 - The -shahr ramadan-, in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, those of you who witnessed the -full moon- shall fast it. Whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God because He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
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the time-frame of the communal fast is given in detail - the duration of the full moon itself (3 days).
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the principle of completing the count is only directed towards a special group of people, those who missed the fast of the full moon or one or two days of it. They should complete the count by fasting other days - knowingly that the duration of a full moon is three days.
Until now there has not been shown any koranic evidence that could overrule this clear regulation of verse 2185 - a communal fast of three days - the duration of -shahr ramadan-.
Truthseeker
Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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Peace Eid,
Firstly, 3114 says "fi"/inside two years. So it means < 2years. This reconciles 3114 and 2233 and 4615 since 20 shahr is < 2 years.
Secondly, it is impossible for the pregnancy to be 9 lunar months since the formulas we need to solve are as follows (W=Weaning and G=Gestation)
(1) From 4615_______ G + W = 30
(2) From 2233_______ W = 2GIf G=9 then W would be equal 18 in (2) and substituting 18 for W in (1) would give a pregnancy of 12 lunar months!
On the other hand, if we use simple algebra to solve (1) and (2) together then we get
G + 2G = 30 -----> 3G=30 --------> G=10
There is no other possible answer to this simple algebra problem.
As for your comments that the maximum would be 294 days, please see the following link
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy
"The expected date of delivery (EDD) is 40 weeks counting from the first day of the last menstrual period (LMP), and birth usually occurs between 37 (259 days) and 42 weeks (294 days)."
The great reading gives the same max as modern science.
On the other hand, if we take shahr to be a lunar month and not the event of the full-moon then per the simple algebra above your normal (not maximum) would be a fixed 10 lunar months or 294 days!
As I said, it is impossible to reconcile 2233 and 4615 if "shahr" meant lunar month and the only way to reconcile them is if "shahr" meant full-moon.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Yes ?in? also means inside, within, or < 2 in most languages and why impossible?
(2233) And the mothers shall suckle/yur'i'na (َ their children awlayni (ِ
(3114) wafiluhu (ۥ in mayni (ِ
(4615) and bearing of him wafiluhu (ۥ thirty shahranGestation is up to 10 lunar months 29.53059 = 295 days according to science and link you posted, therefore
(2233) filuhu = 2 gestations/20 months
(3114) filuhu/20 months < 2 years
(4615) gestation/10 months + filuhu/20 months = 30 months!That is if yur'i'na (َ is same as filan (ا or are they dissimilar terms?
(2233) And the mothers shall suckle/yur'i'na (َ their children awlayni (ِ for who wishes to complete the suckling/al-raata (َ
And upon the father (on) him their provision and their clothing in fair manner. Not is burdened any soul only its capacity not made to suffer (the) mother because of her child and not (the) father be because of his child and on the heirs like that.
So if they both desire filan (ا through mutual consent from both them and consultation so no blame on both of them.
And if you want to ask another woman to suckle/tastari your child so no blame on you when you pay what you give in a fair manner.
And fear Allah and know that Allah of what you do All-Seer. -
Peace Siki
shahar (full moon) can not be for three days, it is an event (marker) and hence only one moon out of these so called full moons can be designated as a "Shahar"
Moreover there are important clues pointing towards "complete count" as a 10
An event can last for instance three days - as seems to be the case with the full moon.
At the moment I do not find any koranic evidence that the -shahr- as in -shahr ramadan- (verse 2185) is only a marker of the beginning of a fasting-period.
The wording of verse 2185 is very clear - Therefore, those of you who witnessed the -full moon- shall fast it.If the -shahr- would only be a marker of the start of the fast, why is the wording of the verse not indicating that?
The Koran has no lack of words - the wording -beginning to fast- and the number of extra days of the fast would be necessary in the verse to understand -shahr- just as a marker of the beginning.
The command of completing the count is only directed towards the persons who missed the fast of the -shahr ramadan- or one or two days of it.I have not found any evidence in the Koran that completing the ma'doodat count means only a count until 10.
Verse 2196 does not say that all the counts ma'doodat should be 3+7=10, this seems only valid for a special group participants of the -hajj-.So may be you can give compelling koranic evidence that all the ma'doodat counts have to be until 10.
I really do not find it in verse 2196 or any other verse.If this evidence is not found - we should take care not to make our own rules, by declaring that the ma'doodat count can only be until 10.
I missed your comment on following
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It would be very particular to assume that our Creator gave the details of the time-frame of only special occasions of fasting for some special people and not for the general communal fast of -shahr ramadan-.492 - a fast of two consecutive full moons in case of unvoluntary manslaughter and one can not compensate in another prescribed way.
584 - a fast of two consecutive full moons in case of a certain wrong manner of divorce.
589 - a fast of three day in case of breaking a serious oath and one can not compensate in another prescribed way.
2196 - a dual fast of 3 + 7 days for a special group of visitors of the -hajj-.
To assume that for the communal fast of -shahr ramadan- the believers are not precisely instructed and should assume from sources next to the Koran that a count has to be until 10 seems to be particular - since the details of the verses mentioned above.
Verse 2185 seems to be complete and detailed in this matter - no assumptions needed. -unquote-
Truthseeker
Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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Peace Eid,
Yes ?in? also means inside, within, or < 2 in most languages and why impossible?
(2233) And the mothers shall suckle/yur'i'na (َ their children awlayni (ِ
(3114) wafiluhu (ۥ in mayni (ِ
(4615) and bearing of him wafiluhu (ۥ thirty shahran
Gestation is up to 10 lunar months 29.53059 = 295 days according to science and link you posted, therefore
(2233) filuhu = 2 gestations/20 months
(3114) filuhu/20 months < 2 years
(4615) gestation/10 months + filuhu/20 months = 30 months!
That is if yur'i'na (َ is same as filan (ا or are they dissimilar terms?
(2233) And the mothers shall suckle/yur'i'na (َ their children awlayni (ِ for who wishes to complete the suckling/al-raata (َ
And upon the father (on) him their provision and their clothing in fair manner. Not is burdened any soul only its capacity not made to suffer (the) mother because of her child and not (the) father be because of his child and on the heirs like that.
So if they both desire filan (ا through mutual consent from both them and consultation so no blame on both of them.
And if you want to ask another woman to suckle/tastari your child so no blame on you when you pay what you give in a fair manner.
And fear Allah and know that Allah of what you do All-Seer.You are assuming that 4615 and 2233 apply to the rare maximum gestation period and not the normal. The great reading is not talking about the maximum rare gestation period. It is talking about what is normal. Also, please see what I copied in blue above. This maximum is due to the way modern science calculates pregnancy based on the event of the last menstruation and variation of when actual conception occurred relative to this event (like the full-moon is an event).
So interpreting "shahr" as full-moon covers the normal while allowing for the range up to the max that modern science determined. On the other hand, the traditional definition of "shahr" as a 29.5 days lunar month will always result in the max of 294 and never the normal, which is false. This is why it is impossible. It is a physical impossibility that every human gestation is the max 294 days as your interpretation would imply.
Peace,
Ayman
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An event can last for instance three days - as seems to be the case with the full moon.
At the moment I do not find any koranic evidence that the -shahr- as in -shahr ramadan- (verse 2185) is only a marker of the beginning of a fasting-period.
The wording of verse 2185 is very clear - Therefore, those of you who witnessed the -full moon- shall fast it.In Arabic it is normal to associate an action with the event that marks it. For example, the time of "fajr"/dawn is an instant such as 506AM but we say "salat alfajr" to denote the "salat" marked by "fajr"/dawn.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace
Concerning the discussion about duration of suckling and pregnancy.
There seems to be a relevant difference between suckling/yur'dina - verse 2233 and weaning/fisalu - verse 2233, 3114 and 4615.
Verse 4615
... his mother bore him with hardship, gave birth to him in hardship, and his weaning lasts thirty full moons.According to verse 3114 the weaning/fisalu (the process of gradual separation from the breast) should be ended before two years have passed -amayni-
According to verse 2233 the suckling/yur'dina should last -hawlayni- probably two periods of pregnancy.So if -amayni- means 2 solar years then verse 4615 remains to be researched, since the usage of the word -weaning/fisalu- and the absence of the word -suckling/yur'dina-.
period until the end of weaning/fisalu 2 solar years - 730 days (2x365)
pregnancy the period between 10 full moons - 266 days (9x29.5)
the total of this should be 30 shahr - 856 days (29x29.5)730 + 266 = 996
There seems to be a surplus of about 140 days.
Truthseeker
Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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In Arabic it is normal to associate an action with the event that marks it. For example, the time of "fajr"/dawn is an instant such as 506AM but we say "salat alfajr" to denote the "salat" marked by "fajr"/dawn.
From this we can not induce a general rule - since for instance -isha- is a broader time-frame in which -salaat el isha- has to be done.
The same can be said about -shahr ramadan-, it provides for a time-frame of three days that can be fasted.Peace,
TruthseekerDisclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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salam i will let you on what you could not wait to see,
as for shahr it is a mistake to think it is the full moon,
actually ashahr has two meanings in the quran and it reveals again the mircle of the quran.
as for the year having twelve shahrs it means twelve locations in the maps of the stars.
we do have twelve of those subhana allah.
and hear those locations do mean times too,since every location would need exactly the same time to ellapse.so shahr is three meaning in one.
phase,location,and time when it is to that matter of time it is one of twelve observed in the ski.as for al ahillat it has nothing to do with the moon has the quran even mentioned that al ahilat is the moon,why do you take it for granted that it is the moon while it is the stars in relation to each other please look. for one can look once at the sky and now in what part of the year he is in.that moon cycle that moslems has come up with is so lame.
as for ashhur hurum,well they are locations in mecca four locations that one has to visit so that he has preformed haj.
and that can happen any time of the year.no specific time in the quran.
seriously now do you think that it would be kept out of the quran if it was for some time.
as for ramadan my friends there i will tell you next time ,for who ever wants to know.
salam alaykum. -
Salaam,
salam i will let you on what you could not wait to see,
as for shahr it is a mistake to think it is the full moon,
actually ashahr has two meanings in the quran and it reveals again the mircle of the quran.
as for the year having twelve shahrs it means twelve locations in the maps of the stars.
we do have twelve of those subhana allah.
and hear those locations do mean times too,since every location would need exactly the same time to ellapse.so shahr is three meaning in one.
phase,location,and time when it is to that matter of time it is one of twelve observed in the ski.as for al ahillat it has nothing to do with the moon has the quran even mentioned that al ahilat is the moon,why do you take it for granted that it is the moon while it is the stars in relation to each other please look. for one can look once at the sky and now in what part of the year he is in.that moon cycle that moslems has come up with is so lame.
as for ashhur hurum,well they are locations in mecca four locations that one has to visit so that he has preformed haj.
and that can happen any time of the year.no specific time in the quran.
seriously now do you think that it would be kept out of the quran if it was for some time.
as for ramadan my friends there i will tell you next time ,for who ever wants to know.
salam alaykum.You used the word 'quran' 5 times in your above post, claiming this and that, but no aayat quoted? Put forward your evidence please.
May Allah guide us all to His only path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salaam brother ayman,
Please read the original Arabic.
In 2185 you will see (and complete the count).
In 2196 you will see (this is a complete ten).There are possibilities otherwise.
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in 2185 is referring to those who are sick or travelling, they have to complete their count.
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is just the counting from other days.
If you notice, the key words here are not but for fasting. So, is not referring to 10 but 3 as per 2203.
What do you think brother?
May Allah guide us all to His only path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
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Salaam,
In Arabic it is normal to associate an action with the event that marks it. For example, the time of "fajr"/dawn is an instant such as 506AM but we say "salat alfajr" to denote the "salat" marked by "fajr"/dawn.
I agree with you.
May Allah guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
ok let us go back few hundred years ,where traveling by day in the dessert was so hot,but even the great danger is that traveling by day you make you loose your way for there in the dessert all looked the same,sand dunes every where are similar.
but at night the we do have the same problem no way to go but there is no sun and less heat ,but wait a second the old trick is to use the stars my freind for navigation.
yes it must be that the stars where used as signs for travel so that we dont loose our way,so they must know about those stars,
wow,aint that some thing.
then if we observe closer we see that the stars sometimes are together in one night especially in winter summer and fall season,they do share the sky,the north stars the south starts west and east. in many cases during the year they are together.
but spring has something very weird to it,it has four stars that each last one month and they dont come together,they are alone.
each star is on its own,or a group of stars in may is different then the group of stars in june and they dont appear together at the same time in any given period,that is why they are called "HURUM" each month in the spring there is HURUM stars that come alone and dont interact with the other stars.and they do share equality in length of time they only last a month each not more not less.
SUBHANA ALLAH ,even a kid then would know the stars else he will get lost in the dessert if needed to travel so it was one of the few things they needed to know.
but you can keep with your moon if you want !
as for my proof of the quran ,well not alot of ayas about ashhur and al shahr ,look it up really does not need to be stated i can write them down for you ,since they are very few ,but i am sure you know the ayas.you have been mentioning them all along. -
I would say, even dawn is a period, stretching from , first light to sun rise.
Yes, but even if we take it as the period from first light to sunrise there is nothing in the great reading telling us to do the "salat" exactly from first light to sunrise. So if you start your "salat" just before sunrise and it stretches for an hour after sunrise, it is still "salat al fajr". So again, the action is simply called by its marker.
Peace,
Ayman
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There are possibilities otherwise.
- in 2185 is referring to those who are sick or travelling, they have to complete their count.
- is just the counting from other days.
If you notice, the key words here are not but for fasting. So, is not referring to 10 but 3 as per 2203.
What do you think brother?
May the god guide us all to the straight path.
Brother, it is already completely understood from the expression " (count from other days) that it is the same count of the missed days.
Also, please read the passage to the end and see that the following three actions are tied together
You shall complete the count, and magnify the god for what he has guided you and perhaps you would be grateful.
To suggest that completing the count is only for those who are sick or traveling is to imply that magnifying the god and being grateful is also only for the sick and traveling! This is why no translator has interpreted it like this.
2203 doesn't say that ayyam maadoodat (few days) is three days. We can deduce from 2203 that maadoodat is more than two. 2196 makes it clear that it is 3-10 with the 10 being the complete/max.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salam Ayam,but what do you mean by salat.
i know this could be another discussion then intended,but what is salat?
how is it performed ,what is done ,and how is it done,what is to be said ,how is perfomed.
as for the fasting for haj is different from fasting in ramadan,it is all connected to knowing what is ramadan,
i think much thought is needed,and the only way to find out is through simplicity,ALLah is all knowing.
salam alaykum. -
Yes, but even if we take it as the period from first light to sunrise there is nothing in the great reading telling us to do the "salat" exactly from first light to sunrise. So if you start your "salat" just before sunrise and it stretches for an hour after sunrise, it is still "salat al fajr". So again, the action is simply called by its marker.
-Fajr- and -isha- are rather time-frames in which the -salat- should be done.
So the beginning and ending of these periods could be seen as markers - not only the start of a period.
Verse 4103 indicates that the -salat- is at prescribed times.
The time-frames of -salat- are given by the Koran.
-Salaat el fajr- should be done only during -fajr-, that is the koranic time-frame.
If one crosses the time-border while doing the -salat- (-taraf-, verse 11114) then one can not be sure if the part after sunset still can be called -salat el fajr-, if one trangresses consciously a clear time-frame frome the Koran.In analogy - the fasting of -shahr ramadan-, verse 2185 clearly gives the time-frame of the fast - the duration of the full moon itself - 3 days.
2185 ... Therefore, those of you who witnessed the -full moon- shall fast it...
The start of the full moon is the marker of the beginning of the fast - the end of the full moon is the marker of the end of the fast.
Within this time-frame there are periods that one should fast (from the start of -fajr- until -lail-) and that one should not fast (the night of the fast).Peace,
TruthseekerDisclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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Brother, it is already completely understood from the expression " (count from other days) that it is the same count of the missed days.
Also, please read the passage to the end and see that the following three actions are tied togetherYou shall complete the count, and magnify the god for what he has guided you and perhaps you would be grateful.
To suggest that completing the count is only for those who are sick or traveling is to imply that magnifying the god and being grateful is also only for the sick and traveling! This is why no translator has interpreted it like this.
This way of reasoning seems not to be binding.
In verse 2185 two groups of peope are mentioned
1 - the ones that fast the -shahr ramadan-
2 - the ones that fast other days for compensation - they have to fast then a count of other days.This does not imply or exclude that the first group had to count as well - the first group could simply keep on with the moon or read from a mooncalendar. They could can also count the number of days of a full moon.
This seems not to be a structural issue.
The real issue is until which number the count should be 3 or 10.Both groups can magnify God and remember the gift of the Koran to mankind - only the timing is different.
2203 doesn't say that ayyam maadoodat (few days) is three days. We can deduce from 2203 that maadoodat is more than two. 2196 makes it clear that it is 3-10 with the 10 being the complete/max.
2203 Remember God during a number of days/ayyam ma'doodat. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous ...
We can learn from this verse that the standard number of days of participation to the -hajj- was 3 days.
It was allowed to participate one day less or to prolong this period to a number above 3.
Of course a small number above 3 can also be named -ma'doodat- as can be seen in verse 2196 - a number until 10.The issue remains that verse 2196 does not state that all the complete counts -ma'doodat- should go until 10.
When the Koran does not state in any verse that - all the complete counts -madoodat- should go until 10 -, then we should not make this a general rule.It is interesting that verse 2196 states that the communal fast of a special group of people during the -hajj- was 3 days.
If the -hajj- started with the full moon - there could be an analogy with verse 2185.
The 7 other days that are mentioned in verse 2196 had to be fasted individually at different days, depending on the duration of the way home.It depends on the context what -completing the count ma'doodat- means.
In verse 2196 a count of 10.
In verse 2185 a count of 3 - since the wording ... Therefore, those of you who witnessed the -full moon- shall fast it... (full moon is a period of three days).Peace,
TruthseekerDisclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.