Hot/"ramadan" Answer

herbman

Salaam brother

Verse 2185 refers only to one special full moon that occurs one time a year - the scorching full moon/shahr ramadan.
That is why one has to fast it, not to fast them.
The meaning of the singular -hu- is indicative for this.

The -hajj- was an event within the four restricted full moons - within a period of 3 x 29.5 + 3 = 91.5 days (including the duration of the last full moon).
From the Koran we can only really know that it lasted somewhat longer than three days - verse 2203.

Regarding the duration of the fast of -shahr ramadan- verses 2184 and 2185 alone are clear and detailed - the full moon lasts three days (ayyaman ma'doodat), that is the duration of the communal fast.
Verses 2196 and 2197 do not explain or add rules to verses 2184 and 2185 - since they are about other subjects.
Verse 2203 confirms that the number -ma'doodat- refers to number three as a standard - compatible with the duration of the full moon, three days.

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

Salam, Peace to all,

2203

what about if AYAMIN plural of YAWM means "PERIODS" instead of DAYS?

A deep study of word YAWM would imply a different meaning than just DAY, don't you think?

Peace

truthseeker171

2203

what about if AYAMIN plural of YAWM means "PERIODS" instead of DAYS?

A deep study of word YAWM would imply a different meaning than just DAY, don't you think?

The context of verse 2203 is clearly the -hajj- as that is in verse 2196.
The word -ayamin- seems to indicate a number of days in a literal sense.

The word -yawm- can also refer to a very long time.
Verse 325 - a day as 1000 year.
Verse 705 - a day as 50.000 year.
Verse 5038 - the creation in 6 days.

Concerning the -hajj- and the fast - a day seems to be a common -human day-.

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

truthseeker171

Salaam brother

That is what I am saying brother that 2185 refers to the only special scorching shahr once in a year.

'FalyasumHU' is either referring to 'a period' or referring to 'a month' , but not a 'full moon'. If shahr means 'full moon' it is NOT working out with 'maadoodaat' and 'falyasumhu', as maadoodaat is referring to 3 days and 'HU' is a singular. We cannot change 'it' to 'this' to fit our understanding brother. Unless and until we study it deeply and keeping our personal understandings aside, we are not gonna find the truth.

-falsyasum-hu- in verse 2185 refers to the full moon - singular.
Something that is singular can have several elements - the full moon has three days (with 98% coverage at least, from earth's perspective seen as a full moon).
Those three days are compatible with the word -ma'doodat- as mentioned in verse 2203.

Brother, I want to understand what means 3 in addition from the above 3 x 29.5 + 3 what this plus three when you already counted full moons also in 29.5?

One can see the beginning of the first full moon as a marker of the beginning the restricted full moons and the end of the fourth full moon as a marker of the end of the restricted full moons.
Since the duration of the full moon is three days - one could add the relevant three days to 3 x 29.5.
Only when the moon becomes visibly smaller - the fourth day, then the restricted full moons are really over.

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

mohamad_itani

but the time for haj is al ahilat and not the full moon.
to what that may mean ,al ahilat is commonly understood as the crecents.but it might have another meaning we must look into that.
but it surely is not a full moon.
or if it is ,then proof from the Quran is required.
salam.

mmkhan

Salaam brother,

-falsyasum-hu- in verse 2185 refers to the full moon - singular.
Something that is singular can have several elements - the full moon has three days (with 98% coverage at least, from earth's perspective seen as a full moon).
Those three days are compatible with the word -ma'doodat- as mentioned in verse 2203.

I understood that the moon has three days with 98% coverage from earth's perspective that exactly fits with 2203 and I agree with that.

But when you agreed that "falyasumHU" is referring to a SINGLE full moon, it is not possible to refer it to three days. Please read my post # 2281 above for detail. This clarifies that either 'shahr' means 'a period of three days' or 'a longer period' or 'a month' but not just a SINGLE full moon.

One can see the beginning of the first full moon as a marker of the beginning the restricted full moons and the end of the fourth full moon as a marker of the end of the restricted full moons.
Since the duration of the full moon is three days - one could add the relevant three days to 3 x 29.5.
Only when the moon becomes visibly smaller - the fourth day, then the restricted full moons are really over.

Why to add those relevant three days to 3 x 29.5 when it is already added in 29.5 days?

May Allah guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan

truthseeker171

Salaam brother

I understood that the moon has three days with 98% coverage from earth's perspective that exactly fits with 2203 and I agree with that.

But when you agreed that "falyasumHU" is referring to a SINGLE full moon, it is not possible to refer it to three days. Please read my post # 2281 above for detail. This clarifies that either 'shahr' means 'a period of three days' or 'a longer period' or 'a month' but not just a SINGLE full moon.

Verse 2185 mentions the -shahr ramadan-, translated as the scorching full moon - this is within the count of 12 full moons in a year (936) a special single full moon. The fact that it returns every year does not make the plural-form needed. Since the count until 12 starts over again with the start of the new year.
So I do not see a problem in the usage of the singular form -falyasumhu-, it refers to the one single scorching full moon that occurs during a year.
We can fast the witnessed full moon by fasting the three days (ayaman ma'doodat - 2184, 2203) of it.
Verse 2185 refers to the one special full moon (in singular) that has to be fasted.
Verse 2184 refers to the -ayaman ma'doodat- (in plural) that have to be fasted, the three days that are elements of the special full moon.

Why to add those relevant three days to 3 x 29.5 when it is already added in 29.5 days?

In analogy - the travel lasts four tunnels.
Then one has to go through the last tunnel as well to end the travel.

A lunar-cycle lasts 29.5 on average.
So if one has to abstain 2 -shahr- (584) then one starts to abstain the first day of the first full moon - after 29 or 30 days one sees the beginning of the second full moon. Then one can better fast until the moment that the moon has become 'smaller' after day three of that full moon - that is an extra three days.
Since one has to abstain the two consecutive full moons, including the days between them.

The beginning of the full moon is the marker of the start of the fast - the end of the full moon is the marker of the last day of the fast.

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

truthseeker171

Salaam Mohamad

but the time for haj is al ahilat and not the full moon.
to what that may mean ,al ahilat is commonly understood as the crecents.

You are right - the Koran informs us in verse 2197 that the -hajj- was within the time-frame of the four restricted full moons.
Verse 2189 states that the crescent moons or the several phases of the moon were to be used for the precise timing of the -hajj-.
From the Koran we can not know for certain that the timing of the -hajj- was related to the full moon - but being one of the phases of the moon, it might have been.

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

mohamad_itani

this is a good assumptoin that it is a full moon.but we need further proof,numbers will not do.we need direct proof.or else a shahr will mean one month.
a woman suckle her child 30 shahr.it is impossible to just sucke him or her on just full moons.
in the quran 30 shahr is hawlayn kamilayn two years.
i think we must give up this idea of full moons.
you dont have proof.
"kutiba 3alaykum il siyam kama kutiba 3ala illazeena min kablikum"
the christains do fast for thirty days or more.something actually like fourty.
yet here we want to prove that it is three days full moon.
i totally disagree.
salam

unknownuser

The beginning of the full moon is the marker of the start of the fast - the end of the full moon is the marker of the last day of the fast.

Peace --

Summer solstice is June 21 2011 so let's apply to this year in Northern Hemisphere.

When do you expect to visually "witness" the full moon and "fast it" -- provide exact start and stop dates?

http//www.almanac.com/moon/calendar/DC/Washington/2011-07

The next full moon...

July 13 97%

July 14 100%

July 15 Full Moon 239 A.M.

July 16 98%

truthseeker171

Salaam Mohamad

this is a good assumptoin that it is a full moon.but we need further proof,numbers will not do.we need direct proof.or else a shahr will mean one month.
a woman suckle her child 30 shahr.it is impossible to just sucke him or her on just full moons.
in the quran 30 shahr is hawlayn kamilayn two years.
i think we must give up this idea of full moons.
you dont have proof.

As written before when more than one full moon is prescribed by the Koran - then the days in between should be included.
So the period of suckling could be as a standard 29 x 29.5 + 3 days (the last full moon included)

"kutiba 3alaykum il siyam kama kutiba 3ala illazeena min kablikum"
the christains do fast for thirty days or more.something actually like fourty.
yet here we want to prove that it is three days full moon.

Verse 2183 supports a duration of the fast of far less than 29/30 days.
In the jewish religion one communal day of abstention is prescribed -jawm kippur-.
This fast occurs one day a year and lasts only one total day - from the evening until the next evening.
The christian fast is a product of christian -ahadeeth-, the fast of 40 days is not found as a communal duty in the Torah or in the Gospel.
According to the Gospels (we can not know how reliable they are now) - Jesus had fasted 40 days, this was not prescribed for this followers in any known verse of the Gospel.

A fast of three days during -shahr ramadan- is more compatible with the fast as prescribed for the jewish people than a fast of 29/30 days.
Actually as far as we can know, Jesus was a follower of the jewish sharia as well, there is no proof or indication that the messenger Jesus had changed this element of the sharia into 40 days.

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

truthseeker171

Summer solstice is June 21 2011 so let's apply to this year in Northern Hemisphere.
When do you expect to visually "witness" the full moon and "fast it" -- provide exact start and stop dates?
http//www.almanac.com/moon/calendar/DC/Washington/2011-07
The next full moon...
July 13 97%
July 14 100%
July 15 Full Moon 239 A.M.
July 16 98%

From this one can read that the fasting of -shahr ramadan- is at 14,15 and 16th of July in 2011.
There are in general three days with coverage of at least 98% - the fourth day normally one can see with the eye that the moon becomes 'smaller'.

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

mohamad_itani

hello truth seeker,
if i to take what you are saying,it seems the clossest thing to the truth,but i am a speculator and i want to put the best possible out come ,and that takes time.
i think you are right for other things fall into place if one does what you say.
if we take the full moon to be shahr and we take that ramadan is the summer solice which is always in july by the way,it is strange that this is the only time that the moon get an eclipse.
it is always on those days.so this is the natural phenomena was looking for.
see truth seeker i wanted something rigid from nature to aprove what you where saying.
and now i am to give in to what you are saying.ramadan is the full moon and it is in july.
now i have my proof too.the lunar eclipse meaning you will see the moon but with a red color because it s the eclipse and since now this is all clear.we need to know when is al ashhur al hurum.
do you have any thing that can help us find that.
i want to share with you the meaning of the word sujud which up till now has been hidden really.
let us look into ashhur hurum.i will share the meaning with you of sujud if you are intrested.
thank you and salam.

truthseeker171

Salaam Mohamad

if i to take what you are saying,it seems the clossest thing to the truth,but i am a speculator and i want to put the best possible out come ,and that takes time.
i think you are right for other things fall into place if one does what you say.
if we take the full moon to be shahr and we take that ramadan is the summer solice which is always in july by the way,it is strange that this is the only time that the moon get an eclipse.
it is always on those days.so this is the natural phenomena was looking for.
see truth seeker i wanted something rigid from nature to aprove what you where saying.
and now i am to give in to what you are saying.ramadan is the full moon and it is in july.
now i have my proof too.the lunar eclipse meaning you will see the moon but with a red color because it s the eclipse and since now this is all clear.we need to know when is al ashhur al hurum.
do you have any thing that can help us find that.
i want to share with you the meaning of the word sujud which up till now has been hidden really.
let us look into ashhur hurum.i will share the meaning with you of sujud if you are intrested.
thank you and salam.

The full moon after the summer-solstice is the most reddish moon on average - together with the highest temperature in Arabia, that gives the connection with the literal meaning of -ramadan- scorching heat.
The dates of the lunar-eclipse are rather divided over the year - I do not see the connection between -ramadan- and the lunar eclipse, also because an eclipse can be more times a year.

Until now I have not seen any compelling koranic evidence regarding the timing of the four restricted full moons.
One could assume that -shahr ramadan- is one of them - since it has to be a garanteed peacefull moment within the year to be able to rest and sleep (apart from the middle-prayer) during daytime.
But this subject is somewhat off topic - it could better be discussed on another thread - as is the subject of -soojood-

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

mohamad_itani

i think that ayman has s put it strait ,no need to look further it is a clear matter .ayman has explained it and it all fits.
ayman thank you brother i do agree with you .
hope that Allah Bless you .there can be no clearer explenation

ayman

Verse 2196 states that a 10 is complete because in this special case 3 and 7 have to be added.
There are more examples in the Koran that a combination of numbers is mentioned in a special way.
For instance
verse 2914 - 1000 minus 50
verse 1825 - 300 plus 9
Verse 2196 gives the total of the to be added numbers, the reason for this is unclear.

This is a false analogy. The god certainly knows that people can add and subtract. He says 1000-50 and doesn't give the result 950 and he says 300+9 and doesn't give the result as 309.

ONLY in the case of 3+7 he gives the total specifically described as a COMPLETE 10 to make it clear that 10 is the COMPLETE count of few/maadoodat.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Can you please explain how you understand 'maadoodat' is 3-10 brother? If the figure is not fixed specially in case of fasting then there is no problem in fasting any number of days between 3-10, because 2196 says that completion of 3+7 is 10, but does not clarify that the completion of maadoodat is 10.

The "hajj" is days maadoodat. The 10 days fast is for those whose family is present in the inviolable institution of obedience and thus will fast the whole maximum/complete maadoodat of 10 days while the 3 is for those whose family is not. This is clear from 2196. If you don't agree then why do you think the god mentioned the result 10 when everyone can count 3+7 and also why did he specifically describe the 10 as complete?

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Eid,

Using full moons is short 29 days unless using maximum ?
10 full moons (29.53059 x 9) = 266
20 full moons (29.53059 x 19) = 561
30 full moons (29.53059 x 29) = 856
266 + 561 = 827 (short 29 days)

It is not short. You are missing the period between the 10 and the 20. There is no baby I know of that is born and then waits for 29.5 after delivery before he is fed.

10 full moons (29.53059 x 10) = 295
20 full moons (29.53059 x 20) = 591
30 full moons (29.53059 x 30) = 886

This 295 days is false. Do you know anyone who was in the womb that long? I doubt it.

The normal human gestation period is around 266 days (see your 10 full moons above).

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

i think that ayman has s put it strait ,no need to look further it is a clear matter .ayman has explained it and it all fits.
ayman thank you brother i do agree with you .
hope that Allah Bless you .there can be no clearer explenation

Thank you brother Mohamad. May the god bless you and your family.

This is the book no doubt in it guidance for the forethoughtful

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

mmkhan

Salaam ayman,

The "hajj" is days maadoodat. The 10 days fast is for those whose family is present in the inviolable institution of obedience and thus will fast the whole maximum/complete maadoodat of 10 days while the 3 is for those whose family is not. This is clear from 2196. If you don't agree then why do you think the god mentioned the result 10 when everyone can count 3+7 and also why did he specifically describe the 10 as complete?

Let me breakdown what you wrote

The "hajj" is days maadoodat. Agreed
The 10 days fast is for those whose family is present in the inviolable institution of obedience and... Agreed on 10 days fast
...thus will fast the whole maximum/complete maadoodat of 10 days while the 3 is for those whose family is not. Problem for me here, I found you mixing both the above mentioned points together when actually they are two different things. One talks about the period of Hajj, and second is about fasting for 10 days ONLY for those who cannot bring offering .
This is clear from 2196. Yes only 10 days fasting is clear from 2196 without any mentioning of iddat.
If you don't agree then why do you think the god mentioned the result 10 when everyone can count 3+7 and also why did he specifically describe the 10 as complete? I agree that there must be some reason for that, but still I cannot relate it with ayyamam maadoodaat. I also agree with you that other numbers, such as 1000-50 and 300+9 does not show the complete result as in 2196, so there must be some reason.

May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His only path pr
Mohammed M. Khan

unknownuser

This 295 days is false. Do you know anyone who was in the womb that long? I doubt it.

The normal human gestation period is around 266 days (see your 10 full moons above).

Peace Ayman,

It comes up if using full moons. Example, if baby is conceived day after full moon?

As for your comments that the maximum would be 294 days, please see the following link

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy

"The expected date of delivery (EDD) is 40 weeks counting from the first day of the last menstrual period (LMP), and birth usually occurs between 37 (259 days) and 42 weeks (294 days)."

The great reading gives the same max as modern science.

On the other hand, if we take shahr to be a lunar month and not the event of the full-moon then per the simple algebra above your normal (not maximum) would be a fixed 10 lunar months or 294 days!

As I said, it is impossible to reconcile 2233 and 4615 if "shahr" meant lunar month and the only way to reconcile them is if "shahr" meant full-moon.

The point was there is no need to reconcile dissimilar terms

yur'i'na (&#1614 breastfeeding
filan (&#1575 separation

3114 and his separation (wafiluhu) < two years (mayni)

4615 and bearing of him and his separation (wafiluhu) thirty shahr

2233 And the mothers shall suckle/yur'i'na (&#1614 their children awlayni (&#1616 for who wishes to complete the suckling/al-raata (&#1614

And upon the father (on) him their provision and their clothing in fair manner. Not is burdened any soul only its capacity not made to suffer (the) mother because of her child and not (the) father be because of his child and on the heirs like that

So if they both desire separation/filan (&#1575 through mutual consent from both them and consultation so no blame on both of them

And if you want to ask other women to suckle/tastari your children so no blame on you when you pay what you give in a fair manner

And fear Allah and know that Allah of what you do All-Seer