Hot/"ramadan" Answer
-
Umm Tariq,
I'm only replying because I was part of that discussion and I would like to ask, how do you ignore that the reading CLEARLY uses the verb 'shaheda' in different ways? I gave those examples. How can that be fruitless? I know that arranging similar verses is KEY to trying to properly understand how the god is using certain terminology and not that I just put what I want to be there, that would not be a just investigation of the truth would it? To me, this is one of the big supports for 'full moon' and if this is considered a non-issue by those who say month and they don't care how the reading uses this verb, I simply cannot accept that it doesn't matter and it shows me the weakness of this stance.
I take this stance because I do not believe that the Quran defines words. It uses Arabic words in the same ways that can be used outside of the context of the Quran. So examples on how the Quran defines the verb shahida or any other verb or noun from its usage is futile and a mute methodology to me because the Quran uses its words and verbs in the same way the Classical Arabic language (represented by pre-Quranic and early Islamic Arab society) can use them, not the other way around. The comment was not meant to offend you, but definitions of words based solely on interpretations of Quranic usages of those words is fraught with holes, potential problems and room for abuse. I only need remind of the Salat as connection or method theories to prove my point. The Quran is not a dictionary.
Another point that came to mind, it may have been mentioned before, is how do we reconcile in 2184 the god begins with "ayyaam ma'duudaat" and the interpretation of 'month? There was a point about just the form of the word ma'duudaat provides a clue since this form is used for representing a count from 3 - 10. Numbers over 10 until 20 and from 20 to 99 and so on use different forms when using them in expressions. The duals have their own form. I love the preciseness of arabic. Check this out for yourself in the great reading. Can we say that the arabic here doesn't matter, that the arabic grammarians know arabic better than the Creator? I'd like honest answers since I am keeping the door open.
I dealt with the specifics of ma3dood/ma3doodah and the grammar of ma3doodaat. That definition of 3-10 was ONE possiblity of the meaning of the word and was not the deciding definition of the word. I showed in the very Arabic quoted here, by grace of Samia, from lisan al-3arab of how in the same parenthesis ma3doodaat had the general meanings of counted and numbered as well as the specific meaning of few. And I showed other examples of Classical Arabic grammar via the Quran where the feminine plural is used for plural inanimate objects, and specifically days. There is no preference for one form of ma3dood or another. These forms are grammatically stable and equal to the form numbered in English. In some cases it means few and in others it just means limited. I could tell someone that their days are numbered and be saying that they will die soon or I can be saying that they will die eventually as all our numbers are limited. That is great material for a a cryptogram or a cipher but it is only great material because it is true. And this is the same case with ma3dood. We see this in everyday usage of the word 'numbered' and we need to expect that when we read the Quran's words.
Making a competitive comparison between arabic grammarians and the quran is completely illogical. The fact is that the Quran never dedicated itself to explaining Classical Arabic words and grammar, it just used them to get its point accross. Grammarians made it a point to record how Classical Arabic words were used and how its grammar was used. So it is never a Quran vs. Grammarian scenario, that sort of scenario is completely nonsensical. The fact is that the Quran borrowed words and their meanings from Classical Arabic in order to get its points accross in the book, and the grammarians dedicated themselves to how the Arabs who most represented and who were most connected to pre-Quranic Arabia (the linguistic birth ground of the Quran), and how they used their words and grammar.
So I've never denied that ma3doodaat can mean few (although the meaning of 3-10 was more connected to the possibly innovated Islamic concept of pilgrimage or at very least the pre-islamic pagan origin of the pilgrimage which would give it more validity as a definition). I have also never denied that shahr can mean full moon after I saw it in the Classical Arabic dictionaries with my own eyes. But it can also refer to crescent moons, potentially any moon phase (As it can be synonymous with qamar and hilaal. And hilaal can mean any moon phase as well), or the period from waxing crescent to new waxing crescent, or 29 sunset to sunset days which equal 30 sunrise to sunrise days.
The question here is what does the Quran mean when it refers to shahr. I think it is clear from all I have presented in my previous posts that the Quran prefers the meaning of 30 sunrise to sunrise days in its context. And I think it is confirmed in the fact that using this conclusion we will always only have and be able to count only 12 shahr in the year, not a shahr more or less. And so I don't have to explain later, the naturally occurring extra 5 or 6 days after the 12th shahr are never to be ignored but the fact is that they will never constitute a shahr or an extension of any shahr because the Quranically preferred shahr is 30 (sunrise to sunrise) days. No more, no less.
And as always . . . .
sun Godbless,
AnwarI hope you understand my points. Whether you agree with them or not is your decision.
-
Peace Nun,
What menstruations are you talking about?
I was referring to 2228 in which "menstruations" is used for menstruating women in the same way as "shahr" is used i 654 for menopausal women whose menopause is in doubt. The usage of "menstruation" in 2228 implies it is a marker, hence the similar usage of "shahr" in the same context of determining interim after divorce in 654 implies that it is used as a marker also and the meaning of "full-moon" is more consistent with that kind of usage because both usages result in similar number of days.
The meaning of "month" in 654 would result in inconsistency because then the minimum waiting period for menstruating women would be the time period between 3 menstruations or approximately 56 days but the waiting period for menopausal women would be 90 days. Why can a menstruating woman wait for 56 days but a menopausal woman whose menopause is doubtful will have to wait 90 days?
Umm Tariq and Ayman have already addressed this issue before, and this is one of the points that proves that "shahr" most likely means "full-moon" in al-quran.
-
Peace Siki,
I will not trust you when you say this. I honestly believe that I know better, and I only say believe instead of know because since we all see things with our own eyes, if you can't see what I'm seeing then that is what you know as well. And there's no point in getting into a you're right and I'm wrong back and forth. I'd be glad to give you the main reasons why this method of taking the Quran as a dictionary is a mistake and a wrongful imposition onto the book but I'm sure I've already communicated those reason to you in most part in my previous posts. So in respect of your right to choose your own path but also to show serious concern for your choice I'll leave it at a hmmmmm hmm I'd be open to any private conversation you'd like to have on the issue. And in the meanwhile I guess I'll just pray for what I believe to be your enlightenment on this issue pr
As always . . .
sun Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Mr. progod,
Mr. Truthseeker11.
Preconceived notions; male chauvinism perhaps?
I find your repost of that issue to be quite disrespectful. To call them 30 day months and to deal with the issue as such is fine. But to call them Anwar months and to repost the wonderland comment is utterly disrespectful. Please take that Anwar month stuff out of there. It is a personal provocation towards me and I do not appreciate it.
I will take back the wonderland comment and apologize for that. As far as Anwar months is concerned, you should take pride in that. How is it disrespectful? Shahr has never meant "month that always has 30 days" in Classical Arabic. This idea is a new innovation by you and because you are the originator, it makes sense to call it "Anwar month". Einstein never got offended when people referred to his theory as "Einstein's theory" did he? What is wrong to refer to an idea by the name of the innovator? It makes it easier to refer to such an idea and I think you should be proud of that. However, I will refrain from using this term in our discussions.
And contradictions you have can be solved through seriously considering what you consider contradictions. I took the liberty in responding to the points below of taking out the disrespectful commentary.
Not replying to someone's constructive criticism when asked repeatedly to do so is also disrespectful, so thank you for finally responding.
This is not redundant God wants us to complete the month in fasting. It is an ecouragement to fast. Although God's book does repeat and clarify I don't find the book very redundant. But Classical Arabic does have seeminly redundant style but this is used for clarification of details as well.
Some redundancies are ridiculous. It is a ridiculous redundancy to say "complete the count" after saying "whoever among you witnesses the month of 30 days then fast it" (meaning fast for 30 days). The encouragement to fast is at the end of verse 2184 "And if you fast it is better for you if you knew". There is no clarification needed to complete the count if it is already stated to fast for 30 days. That is why "shahr" cannot mean "month of 30 days" in 2185 but can only mean "full-moon" because then there is no ridiculous redundancy.
Again this is not true. How many times have people, including Muslims said they were fasting the month of Ramadan? But are they fasting the nights as well? No. So are they lying? Are we lying when we say sunrise and sunset? So it is an expression that doesn't specifically have to mean to fast even the nights. Quranically, the Quran first says to fast the month and then clarifies on how to fast duriing it. Does to touch a person mean to touch their whole body? Same issue. Whatever confusion that would have been caused by this statement is cleared up in 2187.
You have given a wrong analogy. "Person" and "whole body" are different terms. When you say "fast for month of 30 days" it means fast non-stop for 30 days. "Fast it" does not mean "fast in it". If it had said "falyasum fihi", only then you had a point.
The other way it can make sense is if "shahr" is being used as a marker. For example I can say
"Independence day is July 4th, so celebrate it"
and then I can clarify to celebrate it by participating in a festival lasting 10 nights.
"Shahr" in 2185 is used in a similar fashion. It is used as an event or a marker which signals start of fasting and then it is clarified to fast for a few days. The only way we can fast it (the magical month of 30 days), in that sense, would be to start our fasting AFTER the 30 days are over. We will still fast for few days in the manner specified (dawn to sunset), but not for 30 days.
This question has been answered. Please refer to my previous posts. I will be glad to pm them to anyone interested or to post them again as quotes for those truly concerned.
No, this has not been answered. We can count a fraction of an object too in terms of that object. I know that 1/6 month is not a month but we can COUNT fractions of a unit in term of that unit. For example a hypothetical week can have 4 and a half days, so the count of days in that week will be 4 and 1/2 days. Similarly, if a month is always 30 days then the COUNT of months will be 12 and 1/6 months in a solar year and not 12.
If a month is 30 days then it cannot be 35 days. Hence the extra five days are not apart of any month. They are 5 days leading towards the end of the year. By coincidence this happened to be the old egyptian system. These days were not considered apart of any month. There are 12 months that are counted in the year and these last 5 days are just that, 5 days that conclude the year. The argument is mute because no one is saying that there will be a perfect 12 month system not even the Quran says that a year will be 12 months exactly. But whereas you have to in my opinion unquranically ignore the natural 13th moon in counting the full moons to calculate a year these 5 days are counted as what they are, 5 extra days, a transitionary period if you will. There is no unquranic 13th month here that has to be ignored and there are naturally just 12 months in the year.
We are asked to count 12 full-moons. It does not make a 13th full-moon unquranic. We just don't count it. The problem is that the extra full-moon cannot be a part of the previous full moon, but the extra 5 days can easily be a part of the previous month. It is you who is arbitrarily saying they cannot be a part of it. Thus there will be 11 months of 30 days in a year and the 12th month will have 35 or 36 days.
The Quran talks about the book being given to the last prophet all at once, and whereas most Muslims say it was over time I believe that verse is saying that it was revealed to him all at once, so 443 adn 971 pose a problem to traditional Islamic beliefs but not to mine. 876 and 7518 might be the clue to why a month is mentioned in 2185 as when the book was revealed. Any other verses i come accross that support this I will be sure to pass along. To me it would seem that the book was revealed to him the first night and repeated to him thoughout the 29 days afterwards.
876 and 7518 do not mention DESCENT. 2185 does not talk about repetition or compilation, it talks about DESCENT. 443 and 971 confirm that the DESCENT was in one night, so "shahr" in 2185 has to mean "full-moon" and not "month of 30 days"; otherwise you are creating a HUGE contradiction in al-quran. Therefore, "shahr" can only mean "full-moon" in al-quran.
The discussion on the meaning of shahida was fruitless to me. The word can be used to mean to vouch for, to experience, to witness, to see etc. etc. We are all witnessing September right now and we are going to witness October tomorrow. What does that mean in the context of 2185? If you are going to be alive and able for 30 days during your summer to fast, then fast those 30 days. There is no need to try to make shahida witness in a way that we only witness a day when we complete it. That is just not good sense. You witness the day as it begins. You can vouch for it as well if you know of it beforehand, and you can witness to its passing and your having lived through it afterwards. But to make shahida a witnessing that is something magical, special or something that can only be done after the minute, hour or day has passed is an incorrect limitation of the word.
I really don't see why they are magical? But if we are around for them then nash-hiduhum. We witness them. Not a big deal. In reality if we know about september of 2009 and when it will fall we nash-hiduhu (witness/vouch for it) also.
I find this argument somewhat silly knowing what shahida means. I don't really feel like this comment was made in order to recieve the obvious answer.
POINT # 1
As Ayman has pointed out already, your definition of "shahr" as a "month of 30 days" is completely arbitrary without any quranic backing. How can we witness an arbitrary man made time period of 30 days? This man made month of 30 days will fall on different days depending on when the month is arbitrarily started. You still haven't answered the question that Ayman asked When exactly will you start your arbitrary month of 30 days in the summer season? From what point will you start counting your 30 days? Please give quranic evidence for the exact time when you are going to start your arbitrary month.
POINT # 2
When you witness a day, yes you can witness it as soon as day starts becuse the end of the day is continuous with the start i.e. it is one unit. Month of 30 days, however, is different and made of 30 different units. You cannot witness a month of 30 days just on seeing the first day. ALL 30 DAYS HAVE TO BE WITNESSED IN ORDER TO WITNESS THE ARBITRARY MONTH OF 30 DAYS. The only way to fulfil 2185 will be to witness all the 30 days first and then start fasting, but then how long do we fast? If you start fasting during that 30 day month, then you will be violating the command to witness it first. Hence it is impossible witness the 30 day month before fasting AND fast during it. Therefore, "shahr" can only mean "full-moon" in al-quran.
No matter how many times you repeat your argument that fasting for one day is equivalent to feeding one person, it is not supported by al-quran. It does not matter what you believe. When we look at quranic evidence, according to 589 fasting for 3 days is equivalent to feeding 10 people so the ratio is 13.33. Hence, there is no fixed formula in al-quran for ratio of fasting to feeding people.
In 583-4, fasting and feeding people are both compensation for estranging one's wife, and are therefore EQUIVALENT. Similarly in 589, both fasting and feeding people are compensation for breaking oaths and are therefore EQUIVALENT. When things are equivalent, the order of mentioning them does not make any difference. No where in al-quran, other than 2184, is feeding people mentioned as a DIRECT COMPENSATION for fasting, so the formulas of 583-4 and 589 are not applicable to that situation at all, and thus cannot be used to derive an arbitrary man-made definition of a month.
Your definition of "shahr" also creates a major inconsistency in the interim after divorce. In 2228 "menstruations" is used for menstruating women in the same way as "shahr" is used in 654 for menopausal women whose menopause is in doubt. The usage of "menstruation" in 2228 implies it is a marker, hence the similar usage of "shahr" in the same context of determining interim after divorce in 654 implies that it is used as a marker also and the meaning of "full-moon" is more consistent with that kind of usage because both usages result in similar number of days.
The meaning of "month of 30 days" in 654 would result in inconsistency because then the minimum waiting period for menstruating women would be the time period between 3 menstruations or approximately 56 days but the waiting period for menopausal women would be 90 days. Why can a menstruating woman wait for 56 days but a menopausal woman whose menopause is doubtful will have to wait 90 days?
I do not believe that the Quran defines words. It uses Arabic words in the same ways that can be used outside of the context of the Quran. So examples on how the Quran defines the verb shahida or any other verb or noun from its usage is futile and a mute methodology to me because the Quran uses its words and verbs in the same way the Classical Arabic language (represented by pre-Quranic and early Islamic Arab society) can use them, not the other way around. The comment was not meant to offend you, but definitions of words based solely on interpretations of Quranic usages of those words is fraught with holes, potential problems and room for abuse.
On one hand you say the above, and then on the other hand you use al-quran to define "shahr" based on your faulty and defective deduction from 583-4 while ignoring 589. Is that not a hypocritical attitude to use al-quran to define a word (albeit in a faulty manner) and then ask others not to do it? NO CLASSICAL ARABIC DICTIONARY DEFINES SHAHR AS "A MONTH ALWAYS CONTAINING 30 DAYS". That is purely your novel innovation based solely on using al-quran in a faulty manner.
-
Peace Truthseeker,
No, this has not been answered. We can count a fraction of an object too in terms of that object. I know that 1/6 month is not a month but we can COUNT fractions of a unit in term of that unit. For example a hypothetical week can have 4 and a half days, so the count of days in that week will be 4 and 1/2 days. Similarly, if a month is always 30 days then the COUNT of months will be 12 and 1/6 months in a solar year and not 12.
Exactly, we all routinely use expressions such as "half a month" so certainly fractional units in a continuous measure such as "month" are possible and are to be counted. The only way to count exactly 12 is if they were not continuous but binary 0 or 1 events. There is no "1/6 of an event". In other words, either you have the full-moon event (1) or you don't (0). Only then there is no fraction.
As Ayman has pointed out already, your definition of "shahr" as a "month of 30 days" is completely arbitrary without any quranic backing. How can we witness an arbitrary man made time period of 30 days? This man made month of 30 days will fall on different days depending on when the month is arbitrarily started. You still haven't answered the question that Ayman asked When exactly will you start your arbitrary month of 30 days in the summer season? From what point will you start counting your 30 days? Please give quranic evidence for the exact time when you are going to start your arbitrary month.
Exactly, Anwar couldn't answer my question, because he can't.
Anwar, for the last time please tell us when your arbitrary 30 day scorching month starts and when it ends. Tell us also when your arbitrary four restricted 30 day months start and end. Remember, they can't be arbitrary, otherwise the restriction on hunting would be violated.
NO CLASSICAL ARABIC DICTIONARY DEFINES SHAHR AS "A MONTH ALWAYS CONTAINING 30 DAYS". That is purely your novel innovation based solely on using al-quran in a faulty manner.
Exactly, Anwar is lecturing Siki "I don't trust you when you say this" but then he turns around and trusts himself not just for saying it but for actually building his entire theory around it.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace,
Good double team AND assist! I envisoned Truthseeker11 going up with the ball and passing the assist to Ayman and BOOOM! It was a brick! Ah well, nice try. That was like an NBA Pippin/Jordan assist (I'm showing my age, sorry). I guess I should congratulate confused. But to come back to serious land for a bit, Mrs. (or is it Ms.?) truthseeker11, sorry about the assumption that you were a male. All i can really say is oops, my bad. Everyone is entitled to a simple mistake like that, but I do apologize. And why the male chauvinism comment? That wasn't necessary. I admit to a certain degree of chauvinism but I wouldn't try to make it too deep or try to push the point that I'm some sort of misogynist. You didn't but I got the vibe . .(for all that means, my vibes don't seem to be too accurate after getting your gender wrong).
Despite that I'll respond when I get the chance but I'll do my best not to write a book and just respond to the main points of both yours and Ayman's comments. Otherwise I'll be on the computer all day trying to basically reiterate and reword some of the things I've already said but which have not been understood. I'm pretty convinced now that if I haven't been understood by now I never will be. But I guess I feel the need to respond in order to pull my points out of the mud that has just been thrown on them. In any case I'll take my time on the response because seeing how this conversation has gone it has just become a very low number on my priority list. Take that as you will but I'd like to just clarify my points, I won't get personal like you guys want me to by continually calling me out by name (something I asked for restraint on and which I have done my best to avoid), and then I'll try (and I say that with an emphasis on the y) to withdraw from this very, very long-winded topic.
Again and as always I'll give that joyful farwell . . . (I'm trying to keep things upbeat)
sun Godbless,
Anwar -
Salaam Anwar & everyone,
In the interest of everyone, can you just please answer the inquiries put forward by thruthseeker11 pointblank. Let the truth stands on its own merits.
Is there a way where we can download the thread on this topic in notepad/word form? Is there such a way? Any help is much appreciated.
O0 RAMON O0
*when i was barely 9 years old, i entered a church & then suddenly a healer-supposed-to-be-with-the-spirit-of-the-infant-jesus exclaimed "may kalabang pumasok (an enemy just entered)"... i never realized until these period in my life that I could have been viewed as an anti-Christ...but then Jesus is not God & there is no second coming except the Day of Resurrection of all. Does that make me an anti-Christ? Then, the fake healer is right all along. Sorry, this should be in the intro yourself thread...but couldn't resist validating the afro icon...wait till I get blind...is that on the left or right eye....? jedi
May God be with you all...SALAMUN ALAYKUM...
-
Peace Ramon,
Is there a way where we can download the thread on this topic in notepad/word form? Is there such a way? Any help is much appreciated.
A possible simple way that you can do right from you browser is to click File > Save As... and then in the dialog box go to the "Save as type" pull down menu and select "Text File (*.txt)". You can then open the text file in Notepad.
The problem is that you would have to repeat this for each page and there are now 42 pages as per my last count. A workaround this is to instead use the above procedure when you are posting a reply because when you post a reply all or most of the thread history appears in a single web page but it will be in reverse chronological order.
Either way you would need to do some cleanup in Notepad to end up with a nicely readable text by getting rid the menu labels and other generic page labels and because the images are going to appear as funny characters.
I am sure there are utilities or plugins out there that would allow you to do more but this is a simple thing that you can do right from your browser if all you need is a text file.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Ayman,
Thanks! No sweat...I will do it so I can save the discussion on my mobile. It takes about 4 hours of travel time from home to work & vice-versa. Need to maximize time...death comes like a thief in the night jedi
Peace everyone! )
ramon
-
Peace,
The only question I have not explained fully in Ayman's and Truthseeker11's posts is the origin of a 30 day month and why it is Quranic.
I have already explained how the Quran likens a shahr to 30 days and in what contexts so there is no point in repeating that. And as far as the Quran being revealed in one night and hence shahr must being full moon . . . just because the Quran was revealed all at once in one night does not mean that it wasn't repeatedly revealed which is what the Quran implies. I believe that that whole period of repeated revelation so the prophet wouldn't forget lasted 29 days after the first revelation.
Now I've explained where I got 30 days from. No it is not an Anwar month as this is not a fanciful innovation by Anwar. So I take offense to that and it is obvious why, there's no back-peddling that eptithet. But to get to the point, in addition the Quran's implication that a month is 30 days I would have been forced to leave that as just a hunch, without outside linguistic evidence, because I don't and never will use the Quran as a dictionary (that is unless it specifically says X means (or is supposed to mean) Y. Otherwise context definitions in my opinion or very wrong.) My second hunch were two hadeeths, one that referred to fasting in Ramadan when you don't see the ending waxing crescent of the new month and another I read that spoke of a month of 30 days. But I am not willing to put the contents of these hadeeths as proof of my conclusion among people who will call the hadeeth every perjorative in the book (when we just don't trust their historical and religious (including interpretations of religious topics) authenticity not their linguistic authenticity). Obviously I don't agree with everyone's specific negative opinions about the hadeeth. But that is not the point. SO whereas I think the hadeeth are valid as a linguistic source I understand that many here would not accept them and I'd be wrongly branded as a hadeeth follower and conversation would come to a hault. If anyone is going to use these hadeeths against me don't waste your finger-power because I'm not using them in my argument. (I would however like to point to one of Layth's early strokes of genius when he pointed out a hadeeth's usage of asba'a to get at the meaning of saabi'oona as 'religous deviant' (deviant not necessarily in a negative sense but in the sense of different from the majority or previous religions mentioned in a certain context), which is equivalent to the other box we might fill out on a form.)
So when I saw in the dictionary how there was a definition of 29 days I definitely felt that my argument had been close but still wrong. Then I was blessed with an insight. That insight was that a day in the Islamic sense (and for what we know in a pre-Islamic sense as well) is a Judaic sunset to sunset day. And I remembered how the Quran says that a day is from sunrise to sunrise. So I plotted out sunset to sunset days and then plotted out the sunrises that would correspond those sunsets if these days were counted in a Quranic way. And that is how my 30 day month was confirmed. So no, the dictionary does not say 30 days is a month. But it does say that 29 sunset to sunset days is a month and 29 sunset to sunset days corresponds to 30 sunrise to sunrise days. This is not the same kind of correlation as 'feeling extreme heat' = 'the color red/orange' leading to Ramadan = 'Redishness/Orangeness' which is at the basis of the shahru ramadaana = Red/Orange Moon conjecture.
So here's the point (accept it if you will or reject it if you will). Without using the Quran if I read in the dictionary that a month using the Judaic formula (which is the islamic formula as well) is 29 days, and I translate those same 29 days into a sunrise-based formula those 29 Islamic/Judaic days will equal 30 sunrise-days. The dictionary assumes the Judaic concept of a day when it defines shahr. But if we translate that into the sunrise concept of a day, for 29 Judaic days we get 30 sunrise-days. I'm not going to be too repetitive here because I think that's clear.
In the end the question is not if I'm pulling my definition of shahr from the Quran, it's whether I'm pulling my definition of yawm from the Quran. That I admit to and so far I have seen no opposition to it. But I will go dig up the verse again which I believe to be a command of how we are to count days from sunrise to sunrise and I will look through the dictionaries to see if that meaning is possibly included in the dictionaries.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Anwar,
You still haven't answered anything
-
When does your arbitrary 30 day scorching month start and when does it end?
-
When do your arbitrary four restricted 30 day months start and end?
Instead, you are again repeating discredited arguments. 30 Sunni days encompass 29 "quranic" days or vice versa (since it works both ways) and 29 Sunni days (as the dictionary says) actually encompass only 28 "quranic" days and so on. Combining the Sunni "day" (which you admit is false) with the "quranic" day to get to your month is still a discredited argument. Falsehood + Truth <> Truth (if you get what I mean).
Peace,
Ayman
-
-
Peace,
Wow, you're really getting out of hand. I'll ignore the caps. Now these are separate questions but they are finally straight up. But let me preface them with the fact that these are separate questions from what you two were asking me before, unless I missed something. if I did please just send me a quote from when you or truthseeker11 asked me these before. A quote will be enough, save the smart-alleckey comments or false accusations.
You still haven't answered anything
- When does your arbitrary 30 day scorching month start and when does it end?
Now I do not believe in a scorching month. Nor is it arbitrary. Very, very disrespectful my friend, and it doesn't convince me that this is a sincere question. I'll answer it for those who are sincere. I believe in a month during a scorching period of time, i.e. summer. That is clear but in case you think it wasn't I'll reword it (I'm sure I've said this before but I'd have to go comb through my old posts. But if you missed it I can give you the benefit of the dout). During the summer anyone can pick any 30 consecutive days to fast in. Summer is different for different areas and as far as I know every summer lasts more than 30 days. So when it's summer in your neck of the woods fast 30 days of it. That's it.
- When do your arbitrary four restricted 30 day months start and end?
Again I'd like to point out the disprespect and the nasty attitude involved in this question. Saying arbitrary is just mean-spiritied and disingeniuous. As for the 4 restricted months. 1 of them is the month we fast during summer. The other 3 are the months of pilgrimage outlined in Surah Al-Quraysh as being in both winter and spring (saif used to mean spring in the Hijaazi area and not summer). I think you pointed out in one of your old posts how qaidh is really summer. And i looked this up in Lane's lexicon. I'll admit I'll need to go review it again so that I can answer any and all specific and even contorted questions about saif being spring in surah al-quraysh without ambiguities. But naturally since it falls in both winter and spring it would fall in equal parts on the dates before and after the spring equinox.
Instead, you are again repeating discredited arguments. 30 Sunni days encompass 29 "quranic" days or vice versa (since it works both ways) and 29 Sunni days (as the dictionary says) actually encompass only 28 "quranic" days and so on. Combining the Sunni "day" (which you admit is false) with the "quranic" day to get to your month is still a discredited argument. Falsehood + Truth <> Truth (if you get what I mean).
It shows from this last commment that you understood none of what I said, or you are intentionally trying to confuse it. All you have to do, and anyone can do this is write down sunsets and start day 1 on the second sunset, follow that through until you get 29 complete days. Then look at that and add all the sunrises that are apart of those days Quranically. You'lll get 30 days. Believe it or not, reject it or accept it. That is how it is. If you are honest about it you will see.
In the meanwhile take a chill pill and cool it with the caps. Thanks.
sun Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Anwar,
Thank you for finally answering the questions.
Now I do not believe in a scorching month. Nor is it arbitrary. Very, very disrespectful my friend, and it doesn't convince me that this is a sincere question. I'll answer it for those who are sincere. I believe in a month during a scorching period of time, i.e. summer. That is clear but in case you think it wasn't I'll reword it (I'm sure I've said this before but I'd have to go comb through my old posts. But if you missed it I can give you the benefit of the dout). During the summer anyone can pick any 30 consecutive days to fast in. Summer is different for different areas and as far as I know every summer lasts more than 30 days. So when it's summer in your neck of the woods fast 30 days of it. That's it.
What disrespect? Look up the meaning of "arbitrary" in the dictionary, it is not a dirty word. Is stating facts disrespectful? You know very well that summer lasts for three months (longer in tropical areas). So which 30 day period out of the 3+ months should we witness so that we fast in it. Randomly picking up any 30 consecutive days in the summer to fast is in fact arbitrary. So your answer in fact confirms what I and others have observed.
Again I'd like to point out the disprespect and the nasty attitude involved in this question. Saying arbitrary is just mean-spiritied and disingeniuous. As for the 4 restricted months. 1 of them is the month we fast during summer. The other 3 are the months of pilgrimage outlined in Surah Al-Quraysh as being in both winter and spring (saif used to mean spring in the Hijaazi area and not summer). I think you pointed out in one of your old posts how qaidh is really summer. And i looked this up in Lane's lexicon. I'll admit I'll need to go review it again so that I can answer any and all specific and even contorted questions about saif being spring in surah al-quraysh without ambiguities. But naturally since it falls in both winter and spring it would fall in equal parts on the dates before and after the spring equinox.
So again, assuming that your reading of the passages is even remotely correct, your four restricted months can be any random four of 9+ months that constitute summer, spring and winter. So they are in fact arbitrary (no caps) ) .
It shows from this last commment that you understood none of what I said, or you are intentionally trying to confuse it. All you have to do, and anyone can do this is write down sunsets and start day 1 on the second sunset, follow that through until you get 29 complete days. Then look at that and add all the sunrises that are apart of those days Quranically. You'lll get 30 days. Believe it or not, reject it or accept it. That is how it is. If you are honest about it you will see.
But your starting point is the dictionary which says 29 days (from sunrise to sunrise). So 29 days from sunrise to sunrise is in fact 28 "quranic" days from sunset to sunset. Had the dictionary said 31 days (from sunrise to sunrise) then you would be correct. Write it down and check.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace brother Siki,
I have a question for you, "Period for fasting happens to be in the first time slot of Hajj, what should hajjees do?
It depends on what you mean by "hajj". The article on the timing doesn't reflect my latest understanding on the "hajj". If you read the passages on "hajj", you will see that 90% of them have to do with sacrificing livestock and eating from it and feeding the poor. What do you call such an event where livestock and free food are a central part? It is called a feast. In fact, the word "hajj" in Hebrew literally means "feast". Since "hajj" was known since the time of Abraham then it is natural that the people of the book would know about it. The people of the book had those harvest feasts during the summer every year (while they never went to a stone cube, let alone spun around it or kissed it). So if "hajj" means feast then there is no issue during the period of abstinance in having the daily feast after sunset. This is when most people eat dinner anyway.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Anwar,
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. Like I said I want to hear the other argument's side on various points.
I take this stance because I do not believe that the Quran defines words. It uses Arabic words in the same ways that can be used outside of the context of the Quran. So examples on how the Quran defines the verb shahida or any other verb or noun from its usage is futile and a mute methodology to me because the Quran uses its words and verbs in the same way the Classical Arabic language (represented by pre-Quranic and early Islamic Arab society) can use them, not the other way around.
Of course the reading is using a language that was already present but I definitely believe that the god will use them PRECISELY and properly. The words can be used outside in the same way but not always how they are used outside, especially in our times, is reflected in the reading and there are many examples of this. I certainly don't have access nor the time to try and find and read pre-quranic writings and such but I trust that the god's book is sufficient in trying to understand the words it uses by looking at how they are used. Also I know that many non-arabic speaking countries, like Indonesia etc. use the reading to teach themselves arabic and the 'proper' grammar.
The comment was not meant to offend you, but definitions of words based solely on interpretations of Quranic usages of those words is fraught with holes, potential problems and room for abuse. I only need remind of the Salat as connection or method theories to prove my point. The Quran is not a dictionary.
I'm not offended at all but I was really amazed that how the reading uses a certain word doesn't matter to you. I only see room for abuse for those who want to abuse but for a sincere study of the reading, where then should be the starting point if not from the guarantee that the god is precise and we can trust how He uses words? Your main basis seems to be a Judaic definition when we KNOW that the previous scriptures have been corrupted and they have added beliefs not authorized by the god. We see how many of their erroneous beliefs and practices were incorporated into islam through hadiths. How could you possibly convince anyone to use a Judaic definition and not the reading's usage? You were given a clear example that your hypothesis that the reading supports a 30 day month doesn't work in all cases so it can't be right. If that was the pattern that the god intended it would work in all of those examples so how can you ignore that? The reading is not a dictionary but it still even exposes the corruption in man-made dictionaries, alhamdulillah!
Why does the god Himself give us the advice to 'arrange similar verses' if it doesn't mean anything? If it's "So examples on how the Quran defines the verb shahida or any other verb or noun from its usage is futile and a mute methodology to me..." and "but definitions of words based solely on interpretations of Quranic usages of those words is fraught with holes, potential problems and room for abuse."
You didn't 'answer' my point about ma'duudaat you just gave more info. My point was that it was a clue for 'shahr' being 'full moon'. I see that you are willing and acknowledge there are going to be possibilities of meanings for many words but I believe the final criterion is how they are used in the reading, that either supports a choice or it doesn't. That's where the 'arranging' comes in.
We see this in everyday usage of the word 'numbered' and we need to expect that when we read the Quran's words.
This assumption to me is very dangerous, what do you base it on? 'Everyday usage' is subjective. I expect the great reading to be the truth, precise and consistent. If I find that the reading does not support an 'everyday usage' I will discard the 'everyday usage' and go with how the reading uses whatever word.
Making a competitive comparison between arabic grammarians and the quran is completely illogical. The fact is that the Quran never dedicated itself to explaining Classical Arabic words and grammar, it just used them to get its point accross.
I would never do that! The arabic grammarians will always LOSE! ;D It's not dedicated to that but since it's 'precise' I can expect that the reading's usage is certainly the truth and true grammar and not the other way around.
Grammarians made it a point to record how Classical Arabic words were used and how its grammar was used. So it is never a Quran vs. Grammarian scenario, that sort of scenario is completely nonsensical.
Yes, it has that 'man-made' element and that's why it's not the final authority. It's not a vs. scenario per se but we will inevitably have to compare the two and the reading will have to win out.
The question here is what does the Quran mean when it refers to shahr.
This is the crux of this debate/ discussion so what should be the final criterion? I've pointed out how your theory of 30 day month partially based on a certain hypothesis surrounding certain verses pertaining to fasting doesn't work in all cases so you have went 'outside' the reading as well to try and make your hypothesis have more weight. confusedconfused I can't agree with that methodology the conclusion I want isn't supported by the reading except if I make up some theory from certain verses, I will ignore the contradictions/ inconsistencies it makes in the reading and I will look elsewhere to make may conclusion strong and make it 'look like' the reading supports my conclusion. o Wow, I can't do that.
I think it is clear from all I have presented in my previous posts that the Quran prefers the meaning of 30 sunrise to sunrise days in its context. And I think it is confirmed in the fact that using this conclusion we will always only have and be able to count only 12 shahr in the year, not a shahr more or less. And so I don't have to explain later, the naturally occurring extra 5 or 6 days after the 12th shahr are never to be ignored but the fact is that they will never constitute a shahr or an extension of any shahr because the Quranically preferred shahr is 30 (sunrise to sunrise) days. No more, no less.
Like I said, it's good to look at all of the possibilities and keep it open, the reading will inevitably narrow it down. ) I must agree however that those extra 5 or 6 days, if intended by verse 936, it would have been included. It seems, in my opinion, by all of what you have posted, that you don't believe in the preciseness of the god's book. This then is why we disagree. If shahr is taken, out of the possibilities, to be 'full moon' and it leaves nothing left uncovered and keeps consistency in the reading, then why would it be rejected for something else? If the god says 12 shahr, 12 full moons are EXACTLY that, nothing more, nothing less. Why would you bring an opinion that leaves some extra, that brings inconsistency in other verses? ???
Umm Tariq
-
Peace,
Wow, Ayman. This is becoming quite disgusting. I can't say anything without you twisting what I said and then claiming I said what I didn't.
I could call your taking out the 13th month arbitrary, because the Qurand doesn't command mankind to do anything in 936 but states a fact since when God made the heavens and the earth and how doing otherwise would be going against the system God put in place since the beginning. But you know what I still am not going to stoop and say it is arbitrary, not because it is not, but out of respect that you honestly think that this is correct. It is obvious that it is wrong but it is disrespectful to call it arbitrary as if you just pick it out of the air. That is in essence saying that your decision is whimsical, and it is an insult to your motives. You are not stating facts at all, and you are intentionally twisting the things I say which is in reality just plain old malciousness.
Randomly picking up any 30 days in the summer is not my arbitrary position, which is what you really want to say. It is the Quranic injunction, to fast 30 days in the summer. So if anything don't call me aribitrary on the my conclusion, maybe you really want to call God that. You are the king twister of words. I see it. I hope other see it, and I pray you come around.
All of my points concerning the 4 sacred/restricted months is based on Quranic verses. The 3 holy months during spring and winter are in the surah quraysh. If you want to discuss that we can but don't go trying to confound the issues into one pig hodge-podge which needs to be broken up an sorted out issue by issue. 'A month in summer' is the meaning of shahru ramadaana. The 30 days in a shahr is based on the natural conversion of 29 sunset to sunset days into 30 sunrise to sunrise days.
And speking on that here is where you try to twist my words on the last issue, you said in your last post
But your starting point is the dictionary which says 29 days (from sunrise to sunrise). So 29 days from sunrise to sunrise is in fact 28 "quranic" days from sunset to sunset.If you said this on accident I can forgive you but if you did this on purpose you need to come around and ask God for forgiveness for these vile tactics. This is NOT what I said. I said, and have alwasys said, that the dictionary assumes 29 sunset to sunset days and if that is translated into sunrise to sunrise days (the Quranic version of a day) then converts naturally into 30 days. Please do not twist my words, nor ask me to map out anything based on your twisting of my words. You have been doing this for a long time and I can't believe you have a following with this type of dishonest behavior at work. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and take it that you misunderstood what I said so here is the map. T stands for tuloo3 ro sunrise and G stnad for ghuroob or sunset. T(1) is the completion of first sunrise day and G(1) is the completion of the first sunset day (The dictionary's day).
T G T(1) G(1) T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T
So in the dictionary's day (the Islamic and Judaic day) the first sunset which starts the day falls Quranically withing the context of the previous sunrise and the next one.
SO I welcome everyone to count and see for yourselves that 29 Dictionary days (Islamic and Judaic) fall within the context of 30 surnise days (Quranic days).
And so there is no tmore twising A QUranic day = sunrise to sunrise day and a Dictionary (islamic & judaic) day = sunset to sunset day not the otherway around. Ayman was twisting my words.
As for Siki,
Why the instigatory comments? I'm faltering? I have never been clearer, but I can tell you this I am tiring of negatve comments by people like you, as well as having to untwist my words everytime a Scorching Full Moon defender responds to my posts.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
I see a confusion between the Quran's role as an example of impeccable Arabic and a methodology for interpreting the Quran based on context guessing at words. The two are not the same. And people who use the Quran to learn good Arabic are using dictionaries or translations to understand the definitions of words and just imitating the grammar involved in how words are put together using Qurnic sentences and phrases as a template. So I am afraid you are confusing issues here.
I have no clue what you mean by Judaic definition. If you could explain I'd appreciate it. As for a 30 day shahr working in all cases this came down to the words in English that I was choosing to communicate this concept. And I did my best to explain that whenever the Quran created a compensation or subsittute for a fast it was clear that it was on a daily basis. The few context that didn't work according to my opponents on the issue have no compensation or subsitute for fasting, fasting is always the very last option which cannot be subsituted. So I was not proven wrong that in the Quran fasting is dealt with on a daily basis and that 2 shahr in this context is made equal to 60 days. My opponets take all the contexts where fasting is the last option and read it backwords and then use this backwards logic to say I have been proven wrong and that is just not the case. You can't read passages backwards and expect to get the right answer. In all those passages they point to fasting can be compensating by nothing. It is the absolute last form of redemption. Look and you will see.
The Quranic advice to arrange similar verses has to do with defining and clarifiying the TOPIC, not defining and clarifying words. In the cases where a topic consists of one word we are only narrowing down the defintions found in the dictionaries, seeing which meanings the Quran prefers in its contexts.
As for ma'doodah you can't make up your mind about a topic and then take one meaning and act like it is a clue to the decision you've already decicded on. That fact is that ma'doodat does not have to mean few and as counted/numbered it can be a clue that 30 days is what is meant as well. You see what I mean you can't single out a meaning like that for the theory you prefer and act like that is a clue when it has other meanings that can work for other possibilites as well.
As far as the every day use of numbered being a dangerous assumption. You are pitting the bigger language against the Quran again and it doesn't work like that. The Quran is going to chose a meaning from the words of the bigger langauge that it is using, and use all of those meanings or certain meanings. And context narrows down meaning it does not define in and of itself. in the case of ma'doodaat there is no proof that the meaning has been narrowed down to 'few' in the context of the Quran, because the other meanings can work just as well with the other meanings of shahr besides full moon.
Anwar Making a competitive comparison between arabic grammarians and the quran is completely illogical. The fact is that the Quran never dedicated itself to explaining Classical Arabic words and grammar, it just used them to get its point accross. Umm Tariq I would never do that! The arabic grammarians will always LOSE! Grin It's not dedicated to that but since it's 'precise' I can expect that the reading's usage is certainly the truth and true grammar and not the other way around.
Your answer makes it clear that you are doing just that. The point is that unless the Quran says 'wordA equals wordB'' or ''wordA equals sets of wordsC"
then you cannot guess at definitions from context. Context only narrows down the definitions already found in the dictionaries. So the Quran can if it wanted to invent its own meanings but it would have to specifically say that a word means such and such for that to work. Otherwise if you don't use dictionaries or some other form of valid linguistic resource (the dictionary writers used native speakers of Classical Arabic) outside of the Quran to point to the meanings of the words in the Quran being used in the Classical Arabic langauge at large then you will be just guessing meanings and claiming that they are Quranic definitions becuase you guessed at them in the context of the Quran.Yes, it has that 'man-made' element and that's why it's not the final authority. It's not a vs. scenario per se but we will inevitably have to compare the two and the reading will have to win out.
Compare what two? You cannot compare a composition in any language to a book dedicated to the meanings of the language at large. That is like comparing any any book you read to the dictionary and expecting for the meanings of the words to be different? Apples and Oranges. You can't guess at words in the context of the Quran then look at the dictionary, possibly find a different meaning and then say that the dictionary loses when the source of the definition is YOU, not the Quran. You see what I'm saying?
As far as 936 I have been clear on this. A 6th of a 30 days is not 30 days. So if a shahr is 30 days and there are 12 of them then 5 or 6 days extra does not change the count of the 30-day shuhoor involved. But having 13 natural full moons in the year when God says in 936 that there have only been 12 since he created the heavens and the earth (i.e. before mankind began to count) and then saying that we can just not count the 13th moon because 936 is a command when it is not, it is the statement of a fact since the creation of the heavens and the earth, well, that is just plain old manipulation.
I understand that human beings have this attraction to exact perfection and exact numbers. But the fact that seeing a shahr in the context of the Quran as 30 days adds nothing and takes nothing away and still mainatins the count of shuhoor as 12 in the year, I think that is pefect in and of itself and steers us away from human manipulations that ingore the reality of the matter.
Here are the facts
-
If shahr is full moon then there have been 13 shuhoor since the creation of the heavens and the earth, and at the very least God has been counting 12 despite the fact that he created 13. So what would be the point of that? Why would he create 13 and only count twelve? Just like why would he give mankind a brain and then ask us not to use it to know of Him? This is Trinitarian logic. Check 936
-
If the dictionary references ramada as the feeling or sense of extreme heat. Then how does anyone have the right to imply that because of two usages that MIGHT involve the redness of the eyes or redness of the thighs changes the meaning of the word and makes it imply redness? Redness is never mentioned in the definition and I still dout that it is a requisite that someone's eyes turn red when they feel hot. I'm sure everyone has had that experience where you're eyes burn for a little bit and no-one you ask notices any difference. As for the meaning of the thighs feeling extremely hot when rubbed, note that redness again is not mentioned in the definition and people with very dark thighs (and there were a number of very dark Arabs thoughout Arabia during the prophets time and before ('Antar's nickname was ghuraab (crow) because he was so black) don't get red thighs. So how can we imply redness from only 2 usages of the word that don't have to include redness? Whereas all references deal with the sensation of extreme heat.
-
Seeing shahr as 30 days within the context of the Quran, with the verses referring to compensation/substituion for fasting being referenced and with the natural conversion of 29 sunset days to 30 sunrise days fixes the count of shahr as 12 with the 5 or 6 days left over not comprising a shahr in any way. They are counted and at best can be seen as transitionary days but this defintion goes along with the Quran in every way.
-
Shahru ramadaana is the fasting of a month during summer. Ayman would use the word aribitrary as a trigger word to make others think that I made this decision arbitrarily and then have his cover up as picking any random 30 days during the summer to fast as arbitrary (triigger-word again). But if God is saying you can pick any 30 days to fast during the summer than the issue is not arbitrary any more but the freedom God has given us to start and stop our fasting during summer according to what is best for us. Freedom to choose, not arbitrariness.
Also I would love to ask you to talk to Ayman about how he deals with the case endings of shahru ramaadana and the like. I'm sure he'll try to attack me on it instead of allowing to you ask him and have him answer. But when he tells you how he feels the original Quran and Classical Arabic in general had no case endings and that he takes his evidence from Arabic inscriptions as well as the well known ommision of case endings during the wuqoof in Quranic recitation and ignores all of the other case endings besides the wuqoof that are always used in recitation, as well as the fact that if an inscription says 3amala or shahrun no only are the case endings absent but the internal vowels as well, giving you just 3ml and sh-hr and giving absolutely no clue at all of how to pronunce these words THEN you will understand the underlying faults in all these conclusions of his. As always . . .
sun Godbless,
AnwarI'm not going to be able to review this post thoroughly for spelling mistakes so if you misundestand anything or think I made a mistake in my wording please send me a pm or a response asking me to clarify. I type relatively well but I make a lot of mistakes and sometimes use inexact word choices that others will misunderstand. I think I did relatively well on this post. It took me over an hour. Enjoy.
Now, let the senseless attacks and twisting of my words begin!! jedi
-
-
Peace Anwar,
Wow, Ayman. This is becoming quite disgusting. I can't say anything without you twisting what I said and then claiming I said what I didn't.
So "arbitrary" is disrespectful while "disgusting" is not! You are again showing your double standards of not accepting any criticism but then lashing out at others.
I could call your taking out the 13th month arbitrary,
You could by disregarding the difference between "3idat" and "3adad" and assume that the god uses those two words haphazardly.
because the Qurand doesn't command mankind to do anything in 936 but states a fact since when God made the heavens and the earth and how doing otherwise would be going against the system God put in place since the beginning. But you know what I still am not going to stoop and say it is arbitrary, not because it is not, but out of respect that you honestly think that this is correct. It is obvious that it is wrong but it is disrespectful to call it arbitrary as if you just pick it out of the air. That is in essence saying that your decision is whimsical, and it is an insult to your motives. You are not stating facts at all, and you are intentionally twisting the things I say which is in reality just plain old malciousness.
Arbitrary doesn't mean malacious. The 7 days of the week are arbitrary does this mean that you are malacious for following the week? The sectarian timing for the fast is arbitrary it doesn't mean that they are malacious. It simply means that they and you don't know the correct timing.
Randomly picking up any 30 days in the summer is not my arbitrary position, which is what you really want to say. It is the Quranic injunction, to fast 30 days in the summer. So if anything don't call me aribitrary on the my conclusion, maybe you really want to call God that. You are the king twister of words. I see it. I hope other see it, and I pray you come around.
The god often commands us to do things in an arbitrary way. For example, 941 "anfiru Khufafa wa thuqala", so in this case they are told to go out in any arbitrary way between light and heavy and all that matters that they go out to fight. On the other hand, we are not told to fast any arbitrary 30 day period in summer (which could be up to 6 months in tropical areas) as long as we fast.
All of my points concerning the 4 sacred/restricted months is based on Quranic verses. The 3 holy months during spring and winter are in the surah quraysh. If you want to discuss that we can but don't go trying to confound the issues into one pig hodge-podge which needs to be broken up an sorted out issue by issue. 'A month in summer' is the meaning of shahru ramadaana. The 30 days in a shahr is based on the natural conversion of 29 sunset to sunset days into 30 sunrise to sunrise days.
Anwar, you have effectively abrogated the restriction on hunting with your arbitrary "restricted months". According to you in the same way that every person can fast whatever 30 day period they like in the summer, every person can cease hunting any additional three 30 day periods they like in the spring and winter. So essentially the hunting restriction is no more since if I can't hunt today because it is my 30 day period but my son or my brother can then he would go out and hunt for the both of us.
And speking on that here is where you try to twist my words on the last issue, you said in your last post
If you said this on accident I can forgive you but if you did this on purpose you need to come around and ask God for forgiveness for these vile tactics. This is NOT what I said. I said, and have alwasys said, that the dictionary assumes 29 sunset to sunset days and if that is translated into sunrise to sunrise days (the Quranic version of a day) then converts naturally into 30 days. Please do not twist my words, nor ask me to map out anything based on your twisting of my words. You have been doing this for a long time and I can't believe you have a following with this type of dishonest behavior at work. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and take it that you misunderstood what I said so here is the map. T stands for tuloo3 ro sunrise and G stnad for ghuroob or sunset. T(1) is the completion of first sunrise day and G(1) is the completion of the first sunset day (The dictionary's day).
So in the dictionary's day (the Islamic and Judaic day) the first sunset which starts the day falls Quranically withing the context of the previous sunrise and the next one.
SO I welcome everyone to count and see for yourselves that 29 Dictionary days (Islamic and Judaic) fall within the context of 30 surnise days (Quranic days).
And so there is no tmore twising A QUranic day = sunrise to sunrise day and a Dictionary (islamic & judaic) day = sunset to sunset day not the otherway around. Ayman was twisting my words.Anwar, it doesn't matter. 29 days sunset to sunset are going to contain 28 days sunrise to sunrise and 29 days sunrise to sunrise are going to contain 28 days sunset to sunset. If we say that the dictionary definition is sunset to sunset or G-G, then here is the dictionary definition
G T G(1) T(1) G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G T G
How many T-T are in here? Can't you count them? The answer is 28.
In order for you to arrive at 30 days, you have to start from a dictionary definition of 31 days. This is indisputable. This entire discussion is also besides the point since your very basis of 30 days is founded on shaky grounds and you ignoring that A=B and A=C then B=C.
Peace,
Ayman