Hot/"ramadan" Answer

siki

Peace all --

Sorry on the late reply, my appendix burst and spent the week in hospital.

To tell the same person and offense fast ONLY 29 days if on this date and 58 days on another date is a HUGE contradiction and direct disobedience to God.

Brother Nun , How are you now, let our prayers be with you in help to recover you faster.

Fasyaam ul shareen.

could it be the period between two consective full moons? that is to say 29 or 30 days only?

He starts his count when he sees a full moon and finishes when he sees the full moon again.

peace

siki

anthonywallace

He starts his count when he sees a full moon and finishes when he sees the full moon again.

peace

siki

truthseeker11

Peace Nun,

Sorry on the late reply, my appendix burst and spent the week in hospital.

Hope you are feeling better and have a speedy recovery. I would suggest you to start taking wheatgrass powder and powdered greens (mixture of many powdered vegetables and fruits) in a glass of water every day.

Not saying it's correct; as you drop/skip every 13th full moon one can also skip the 13th new moon and that 12 months has to equal exactly one solar year are your words not Quran.

Although, we cannot continue further until MONTH or FULL MOON is resolved first.

I really wish you pay more attention to what other people say because it looks like you just skim the posts and then reply to something that the other person never said. This has been a recurrent theme in your replies.

I never said that 12 months have to exactly equal one solar year. 936 tells us that the COUNT of "shuhoor" is 12. I stated that it is impossible to COUNT 12 lunar cycles/months in every solar year. Try it yourself. You will be able to count 11 consecutive lunar cycles/months within a solar year for 2 consecutive years and then 12 lunar cycles/months in the 3rd year. THEREFORE, "SHUHOOR" IN 936 CANNOT MEAN LUNAR MONTHS.

On the other hand, you will be able to count 12 full-moons in every solar year. This resolves that "shuhoor" can only mean "full-moons" and not "lunar cycles/months".

You can also count 12 new moons in every solar year but "shahr" cannot be translated as "new moon" but can be translated as "full-moon".

Siki has already replied to second part of your post and I fully agree with what he said.

could it be the period between two consective full moons? that is to say 29 or 30 days only?

He starts his count when he sees a full moon and finishes when he sees the full moon again.

ayman

Peace Nun,

Sorry on the late reply, my appendix burst and spent the week in hospital.

I am sorry to hear about your ordeal and I thank the god that you are now well enough to post and I pray that you are on your way to a speedy recovery.

Not saying it's correct; as you drop/skip every 13th full moon one can also skip the 13th new moon and that 12 months has to equal exactly one solar year are your words not Quran.

The great reading mentions "crescents" in general in 2189 and not "new-moon". So unless you are changing your position that "shahr" means "month" and you are now proposing that it means "new moon" then the term "new moon" never occurs in the great reading and therefore your alternate scenario is not a valid example.

Peace,

Ayman

unknownuser

Peace everyone and thank you each for the well wishes.

I?m feeling well and was in constant pain for 17 hours waiting for diagnosis and two days straight non stop vomiting every hour after surgery. They tell me it was the opiate anesthesia drug and now I know a bit why it?s difficult for heroin addicts to quit their addiction.

God taught me that no burden is too great on any individual and reaffirmed priorities on faith, health, and family before the material things.

Anyway, back to the topic...

Brother Nun , How are you now, let our prayers be with you in help to recover you faster. Fasyaam ul shareen. could it be the period between two consective full moons? that is to say 29 or 30 days only? He starts his count when he sees a full moon and finishes when he sees the full moon again. peace siki

Peace brother Siki,

Therefore to be consistent,

IF divorced woman (non menstruating, any age puberty to menses)
They wait 3 Full Moons = 58 days regardless

In addition, those who see the FULL MOON, must fast it.
1 Full Moon = 1 day fast

Do you see the above contradictions?

Peace truthseeker,

Hope you are feeling better and have a speedy recovery. I would suggest you to start taking wheatgrass powder and powdered greens (mixture of many powdered vegetables and fruits) in a glass of water every day.

Thank you, will do.

I really wish you pay more attention to what other people say because it looks like you just skim the posts and then reply to something that the other person never said. This has been a recurrent theme in your replies.

Please lay off starting every post with an assumption and especially clich? dictionary buzz words (i.e. fallacious arguments) stuff.

I never said that 12 months have to exactly equal one solar year. 936 tells us that the COUNT of "shuhoor" is 12. I stated that it is impossible to COUNT 12 lunar cycles/months in every solar year. Try it yourself. You will be able to count 11 consecutive lunar cycles/months within a solar year for 2 consecutive years and then 12 lunar cycles/months in the 3rd year. THEREFORE, "SHUHOOR" IN 936 CANNOT MEAN LUNAR MONTHS.

No, you auto-assume 12 lunar months have to equal one solar year.

Quran says...

936 That the months' number/count at God (are) twelve in God's scripture

There are 12 months ? that?s all.

IF to sync with each solar year or every 19 solar years is still a matter of study.

Although as stated earlier this month or full moon issue needs to be put to rest. When diagnosing any solution it's best to divide into it's smallest components and once solved move on else one will get entangled caught in a web of confusion. This is the same trap the 19 followers got into when their solution involved removing two verses to fit their theory ? big contradiction with the rest of the book cannot stand.

Siki has already replied to second part of your post and I fully agree with what he said.

See above...

Peace Ayman,

I meant skip a month; should be same lunar calendar ? start/skip full moon or start/skip a month starting with a new crescent. Only posting a possibility.

Please don?t take any these disagreements personally. I?m sure we are all sincere although we need to keep an open mind and I?m ready to change as long as a better understanding which does not contradict is found.

This is all healthy dialog same as the thread on inheritance which thanks to Samia I changed my understanding at least 3 times since the start of the year as it became clear and was able to address EVERY contradiction -- that is the criterion, the correct, and best meaning per Quran.

We can disagree on meaning of words although there can be no disagreement on simple things such as how many days to wait after divorce or to fast.

Peace

progod

Peace,

This post is not directed to or a response to anyone in particular.

First I wanna say to each his own. I see that we are all gonna have to make our decisions personally, because there will be no consensus here. Secondly in defense of people who use the term ''new moon" they mean waxing crescent. In reality a new moon is not visible and is after the waning crescent disapears and before the waxing crescent appears again. But I think those who use new moon mean to say waxing crescent and that should be understood and corrected with comprehension when someone uses the wrong term, not manipulated, twisted and spit back as a counter argument.

Second I wanna say that a year can be counted in different ways. There is the solstice year (whch I have a hunch is connected more to the term sanah (being seasonal years) or just from one season until the repetition of that same season), there is a year where the same day comes back around or the beginning of the same season (that in my hunch is more connected to hawl as the revolution of a certain day or season), then there are years based on fixed calendars, hence we have Jewish, Buddhist, hindu, Chinese, Islamic etc. new years which are based on different fixed calendar systems (I think this concept of a year is more connected to the term 3aam, based on the Quran's usage of this word in a possesive way in relation to the Arabs of the Quran's time.) With that said I'm sure there have been years where 12 lunar cycles have fit within a solstice based year. All we have to do is follow any particlar Islamic month backwards until it occurs directly after the solstice, or project forward to such an event.

Third I wanted to say that 2183 brings up the topic of fasting, 2184 lays down exceptions to fast and that a ransom/compensation/substitute for a fast is feeding a needy person 2185 mentions how a shahr of Ramadan is a time for fasting 2186 clarifies our relationship with God 2187 tells us that a fast is a daily event done during daylight hours and lets us know that whereas eating may be fine in a place of worship at the end of the fast sex is not.

With that clear I would like to repeat that every daily fast that can be compensated/ransomed for in the Quran is compensated by feeding one needy person. 584 lets us know using the previous passages that 2 months = 60 daily fasts i.e. 60 days.

Hence the equation is 1 needy person = 1 daily fast = 1 day. And knowing that 2 shahr = 60 needy persons = 60 daily fasts = 60 days. Knowing that, I don't think it is difficult to know that 1 shahr = 30 days.

Again I will repeat the key idea here Every daily fast that can be compensated/subsituted/ransomed for in the Quran is compensated by feeding one needy person

If fasting is the last option then it cannot be compensated/ransomed/substituted for and previous options before fasting cannot be seen as compensations, ransoms or subsitutes for fasting because fasting in such contexts has NO compensation. Hence these occurence cannot be included in these equations because they are incompensatable and unsubstitutable fasts. Some such contexts for reference are 492, 2196, 589.

So with that said I think it is quite obvious that the Quran concept of shahr = 30 days. I've shown how as it concerns the dictionaries defintions 29 sunset to sunset days translates into 30 sunrise to sunrise days.

In addition to that and in closing. The concept of ramadan in the dictionaries has nothing to do with the color red, orange or yellow. It has only to do with the senation of intense heat, be that from weather, from friction or from occular irritation. So assuming that ramadan has something to do with the color red is an assumption NOT found in the dictionaries and with no evidence pointing to any possiblity that the Quran means the color red when it uses any form of the root word ramada.

Also I don't see 936 as a command in any fashion. But a statement that there have been 12 shahr in how God decreed things to be since he made the heavens in the earth. This gives me the impression that even before mankind was involved in this whole figuring out and counting a shahr deal that there were always just 12 of them in a year (the yearly context is clarified in 937 with the use of the term an-nasee&#039 And as it concerns 3adad and 3iddah. the meaning of these terms can overlap. Literally adad is what is counted, and 3iddah is a count. But if we assume that a day has 24 hours, both the hours counted and the count of hours is 24, and hence the meaning becomes the same. So i find arguments based on the difference between these two words about the meaning of shahr or how many shahr are in a year and whether we are to leave out the 13th full moon if we take shahr as full moon becomes too semantical and word playish. It's the difference between saying the count of months and the number of months, and frankly although there is a difference, emphasizing it to prove a point is word play. In the end the count is God's (Inna 3iddata ash-shuhoori 3ANDA ALLAHI) and not ours and I think it is fair to expect that his count would be representative of what really is.

This is how I see it. There is no need for a barrage of attacks or repeats of previous counter arguments. I just wanted those interested to read my conclusions, observations and logic of the whole issue instead of thinking I have any personal interest in attacking Ayman or truthseeker's (proponents of the Red solstice moon theory for shahru ramadaana) or those who still believe that shahr should be Quranically seen as a lunar cycle begining and ending with the waxing crescent which I disagree with as well based on the obvious issue a 12 month lunar year poses for representing accurate and stable dates.

Godbless,
Anwar

siki

With that clear I would like to repeat that every daily fast that can be compensated/ransomed for in the Quran is compensated by feeding one needy person. 584 lets us know using the previous passages that 2 months = 60 daily fasts i.e. 60 days.

Hence the equation is 1 needy person = 1 daily fast = 1 day. And knowing that 2 shahr = 60 needy persons = 60 daily fasts = 60 days. Knowing that, I don't think it is difficult to know that 1 shahr = 30 days.

Again I will repeat the key idea here Every daily fast that can be compensated/subsituted/ransomed for in the Quran is compensated by feeding one needy person

If fasting is the last option then it cannot be compensated/ransomed/substituted for and previous options before fasting cannot be seen as compensations, ransoms or subsitutes for fasting because fasting in such contexts has NO compensation. Hence these occurence cannot be included in these equations because they are incompensatable and unsubstitutable fasts. Some such contexts for reference are 492, 2196, 589.

So with that said I think it is quite obvious that the Quran concept of shahr = 30 days. I've shown how as it concerns the dictionaries defintions 29 sunset to sunset days translates into 30 sunrise to sunrise days.

Anwar

Peace brother Anwar

Your above deductions are wrong , because when i investigated , i did not find any fix formula for the conversions of punishments with the compensation of a skipped fast. let me show you.

4-92. killing a believer,= Free a slave= Fast fasyaam ul shahreen.

2-196 . breaking state of iharam=animal sacrifice= 3 days fasting during haj+ 7 days once we come back, and then the ayah says that , ,,,, so that you complete the count of 10. (Note this one, this gives me an important clue)

5-89.breaking an oath=feeding or clothing 10 people=freeing a slave=fast 3 days.

If you see above, there is no set formula, freeing a slave is equvilant to fasting for 30 days or three days at another place,

peace

siki

siki

2-196 . breaking state of iharam=animal sacrifice= 3 days fasting during haj+ 7 days once we come back, and then the ayah says that , ,,,, so that you complete the count of 10. (Note this one, this gives me an important clue)

There is been sufficent evidence in favour of Aymans idea of sharr rammadan , but however there has been little support of his 10 day fasting theory.

While replying Anwar and brother Nun , i did find two more evidence from Quran in favour of his 10 days fasting.

In -2-196 If one breaks the state of ihram , the last compensation is 3 days of fasting during hajj and 7 more days when one comes back , and then the ayahh adds, so that you complete the count of 10?

why Does God want us to complete the count of 10, and says so too? wasnt 3+7 sufficient? there was no need to add this last sentence , i think he wanted to stress upon the count of 10.

If we had to fast for the whole month , why did he say "for a count of days" ? Because when ever his fasting number of days has changed from days to the bigger unit , he has always used the bigger unit, the equvilant of 30 days/month, Fasyamm ul shareen.

so if Fasyyam ul shareen turns out to be the period between two full moons,(30 days, or one month), coupled with the evidence in 2-196 " so that you complete the count of 10", definitely points towards the Number of days for fasting being 10. not 29 or 30.

Moreover he uses the word "siteen" for feeding 60 poor , but does not use "siteen ayaam" for fast. ;D probably he trusts our counting 60 poor on the spot but , wants us to start from a reference/marker (Full moon) for a lengthy count over a period of 30 days.

peace

siki

truthseeker11

Peace everyone,

I agree with Siki. I would just like to add certain things.

The hajj is supposed to be for "ayyaam ma'doodaat" (2203) and the fasting is also for "ayyaam ma'doodaat" (2184). The same phrase is used in both places. If "ayyaam ma'doodaat" means 30 days and fasting is for 30 days then hajj should be for 30 days too. nope

An important clue is given by "whoever hurries to two days" in 2203, which means that the lower limit of "ayyaam ma'doodaat" is 3 days. This confirms that "ayyaam ma'doodaat" most likely refers to the numbers 3 and above. This combined with similar phrases

"complete ten" -------------> in 2196 pertaining to compensatory fasting,
"complete the count" -------> in 2185 pertaining to fasting in scorching heat,

makes it most likely that "ayyaam ma'doodaat" refers to any number from 3-10, and complete the count means complete the count of 10 days.

Now let us discuss "Anwar month", which by his definition (in his imaginary wonderland) consists of exactly 30 days.

If shahr already means "month of 30 days" (Anwar month) in 2185, then saying "complete the count" would be redundant. But, I forgot that God's book is full of redundancies. brickwall

If shahr means "month of 30 days" (Anwar month), then "falyasumhu"/fast it would mean fasting for 30 days straight without any break, which would be impossible. But, I forgot that God asks us to do impossible super human feats in his book. brickwall

If shahr means "month of 30 days" (Anwar month), then the count of such Anwar months in a solar year would be 12 and 1/6. God has used words for fractions in al-quran and 1/6 in Arabic is "sudus". If shahr meant "Anwar months" then God should have said "the count of shuhoor is ithna 'ashara wa sudus". But, I forgot that God does not know how to count in fractions! brickwall

If shahr means "Anwar month" then 12 such months would be 360 days and that will leave 5 days in a solar year. If we skip those five days to start the next "Anwar month", then the last month will have 35 days, not 30, and "Anwar month's" definition will automatically be contradicted. brickwall

If shahr means "Anwar month", then al-quran was descended in an "Anwar month" according to one verse (2185), but descended in one night according to two other verses (443, 971). But, I forgot that God's book is full of contradictions. brickwall

If shahr means "Anwar month", then how can we witness such an Anwar month as per 2185? brickwall

What is so special about those 30 magical days that we can witness them? brickwall

Even if those 30 days are special and different from other days in Anwar's wonderland, witnessing the shahr would require witnessing all 30 days BEFORE we start fasting. We can start fasting only AFTER we have witnessed the 30 days, to make sure we have witnessed the Anwar month. We cannot fast during those 30 magical days, because then we have not witnessed the Anwar month yet; but then how long do we fast? brickwall

No, you auto-assume 12 lunar months have to equal one solar year.

Straw man, again and again and again and again and again brickwall

I keep asking him to show how we can count 12 lunar months in every solar year, and when he fails to do that, he keeps insisting on building straw man, and attributing something to me that I never said or assumed.

In addition, those who see the FULL MOON, must fast it.
1 Full Moon = 1 day fast

Yes, they fast it by fasting one day, and then they complete the count by fasting 9 more days.

Therefore to be consistent,

IF divorced woman (non menstruating, any age puberty to menses)
They wait 3 Full Moons = 58 days regardless

Then menstruating women should also wait for 3 perfectly regular menstruations which always last for the same time and occur at equal intervals in Nun's wonderland.

He cannot understand the difference between fasting for two full-moons and waiting for 3 full-moons after divorce. They are not counted the same way. brickwall

When you fast for 2 full-moons, you don't fast before the full-moons but from one full-moon to the other full-moon. However, when you wait for 3 full-moons after divorce, you have to include the time between divorce and the first full-moon also, just like you include the time between divorce and first menstruation in menstruating women.

936 That the months' number/count at God (are) twelve in God's scripture

The Arabic word is "'iddata" meaning "count", not "number".

There are 12 months ? that?s all.

Then count 12 lunar months in every solar year as challenged earlier, if you are truthful.

These points have been repeated over and over again ad nauseam. The readers can make up their own minds, because only God can guide us. I am out of this discussion.

unknownuser

Peace everyone,

On one hand God is asking menstruating women to wait for 3 events with an irregular time interval between those events, and on the other hand God is asking women whose menopause is doubtful to wait for 3 regular time periods. This is not consistent. But, I forgot that God's book is very inconsistent. brickwall

Are you OK?

It IS very consistent!

Wait 3 cycles or 3 months which ever comes first.

NOT consistent IS

IF divorce is day before a full moon wait 58 days = 3 full moons
IF divorce is day after a full moon wait 28 + 58 days
IF divorce is 10 days after a full moon wait 18 + 58 days
IF...

I keep asking him to show how we can count 12 lunar months in every solar year

Why? Again Quran states 12 months NOT 12 lunar months has to = a solar year.

Then menstruating women should also wait for 3 perfectly regular menstruations which always last for the same time and occur at equal intervals in Nun's wonderland.

When did I imply such a thing?
I always stated that women are not full moon clocks and each varies.

I will ignore the wonderland comment -- only this one time.

He cannot understand the difference between Fasting for two full-moons and waiting for 3 full-moons after divorce. they are not the same. brickwall

You do not understand time; date of divorce and menses can vary, etc.

When a person writes they have to make sense.

Quran is logical and you make it sound senseless with terms such as ?fast two consecutive full moons? which is something that even an American Indian would be puzzled.

OK enough of this already ? I REJECT FULL MOON!

END OF CONVERSATION.

truthseeker11

Peace everyone,

I forgot another important point about "Anwar month" in my previous post.

We are asked to witness the shahr first and then fast it in 2185. In order to witness an Anwar month, we will have to witness all the 30 magical days BEFORE we start fasting. How can we start fasting in the magical Anwar month before witnessing it completely first? brickwall

As everyone can see, Nun is in the habit of quoting things from me that are not in my post. Compare his first quote to my post and you can see for yourself. I could not have edited that after his post because my edit time finished almost 10 minutes before his posting time.

What can I say? Straw man, again and again and again and again...................... brickwall

NOT consistent IS

IF divorce is day before a full moon wait 58 days = 3 full moons
IF divorce is day after a full moon wait 28 + 58 days
IF divorce is 10 days after a full moon wait 18 + 58 days
IF...

If this is not consistent then God is not consistent when He asks menstruating women to wait for 3 menstruations.

IF divorce is day before a menstruation wait 54 days = 3 menstruations
IF divorce is day after a menstruation wait 27 + 54 days
IF divorce is 10 days after a menstruation wait 17 + 54 days

Why? Again Quran states 12 months NOT 12 lunar months has to = a solar year.

No, al-quran does not state that. It states that the "count" of shuhoor is 12, not that 12 shuhoor = a solar year.

How will Nun define his "month"? If 12 months = a solar year then each month will have 30.416 days. How is that possible? How will he count the 0.416 of a day using cosmic markers?

On the other hand, if by month he means "Anwar month", then its rebuttal has already been given in my previous post. If "shahr" is translated as month, it creates many logical contradictions and inconsistencies as pointed out in my previous post.

Quran is logical and you make it sound senseless with terms such as ?fast two consecutive full moons? which is something that even an American Indian would be puzzled.

It is very logical. Fasting for 2 consecutive full-moons means you start your daily fast when you see a full-moon and keep fasting every day from daytime to night until you see the second full-moon and then stop.

What is illogical is fasting for 2 consecutive months. How can someone fast non-stop for 2 months without a break? I forgot again; God asks us to perform impossible super human feats in His book.

afridi220

brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall

I am worried about free minds eastern wall it can break any time needs check uplaugh

progod

Peace,

For all those who replied to my post I would just urge you to study my post again more carefully and with more honest hearts and minds. And to pay attention to the points I made in bold. Again this is an excercise for yourselves, so there is no need to reply.

I will comment on the 12 and 1/6 comments using a similar example. A decade is 10 years as we all know. If I ask someone how many decades are in 55 years what would the answer be? Simply 5. There are only 5 decades in 55 years. Now if we want to be exact in describing 55 years (and not dealing with the question of how many decades are in 55 years) we can say that 55 years = 5 decades and a half of a decade (and in short-hand or short-tounge if you will you say 5 1/2 decades). But in all essence and truth, half of a decade IS NOT a decade, nor is 50 years a century even if we can describe it as half of a century. I think that is tricky for some because it is an issue of idioms having meaning but not representing reality yet this is very simple. You may go your whole life calling 5 years 'half a decade' but when the question is posed how many decades is 5 years, the answer is none, because 5 yeras is not a decade even if it is half of one. In that same truth 1/6 of a month is not a month. So If there are 12 months and 5 days in a year and someone asks you how many months are in a year you simply say 12, period. 12 1/6 months is an expression to describe 365 days but 1/6 of a month has never been and never will be a month. That is the truth of the matter. If that is too complicated for some or even if no one wants to admit it, it is the truth. It has nothing to do with whether God knows fractions or not. In the case of fraction use in the Quran I have seen that it used in the case of goods. So whereas 1/6 of an apple is still and will stays an apple (that goes for inheritance as well), 1/6 of a month is never and will never be a month.

As for the wonderland comments, I'll just laugh them off laugh Peace to all and I hope the sincere can see the truth in what I say. I have posted what I said below for those who may not be able to find what is being responded to here.