Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace Umm Tariq,
So for all intents and purposes, this 13th full moon is COUNTED but not as 13 instead as a new number 1 for the next 12 full moons count. This is important since it has to do with keeping the 4 ashhur hurum CONSISTENT from year to year which the verses clearly show it is IMPERMISSIBLE any other way.
Sister, the occasional 13th full moon is not counted because as per 936 and the meaning of the word count (counting out a of a population), we must count only 12 full-moons in a year out of the possible 12 or 13. So we have to skip counting the 13th completely. If we start recounting with the 13th as 1 then the seasons will be out of sync and we would have circumvented the god's command to count only 12 by calling the 13th "1". I just thought this may have needed clarification.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
Thanks for the quick reply, a few more for clarity...
Yes.
It is the summer season where young animals need protection. Obviously, the summer solstice and therefore the scorching full-moon is different in the northern and southern hemispheres. This is logical since animals in the southern hemishpere follow the seasons in the southern hemisphere and those in the northern one follow their own season. Since the restriction is about hunting, this is actually further confirmation that the timing cannot be arbitrary and seasons must be aligned with the lunar cycle. Of course the only way to do this effortlessly and naturally is to ALWAYS count 12 full moons in a year and skip the occasional 13th. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY.
Phases of the Moon
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/MoonPhase.php2008 FULL MOON DATES
8 JAN. 22 ? (old/wolf full moon) Start restricted South America
9 FEB. 21
10 MAR. 21
11 APR. 20 ? End restricted South America
12 MAY 20
13 JUNE 18 (full moon not counted/skipped)
Summer Solstice 2008
1 JULY 18 ? (rose/strawberry full moon) Start restricted/fast North America
2 AUG. 16
3 SEPT. 15
4 OCT. 14 ? End restricted North America
5 NOV. 13
6 DEC. 12Restricted full moons are 8-11 and 1-4.
On what date should people in Argentina fast; their summer or winter?
IF events are on June 17, does the not counted full moon of June 18, 2008 count?
Example;
A man in Argentina died on June 17, 2008 until what date does his widow wait? 2234Peace
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Peace Nun,
Thanks for the quick reply, a few more for clarity...
Phases of the Moon
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/MoonPhase.php
2008 FULL MOON DATES
8 JAN. 22 ? (old/wolf full moon) Start restricted South America
9 FEB. 21
10 MAR. 21
11 APR. 20 ? End restricted South America
12 MAY 20
13 JUNE 18 (full moon not counted/skipped)
Summer Solstice 2008
1 JULY 18 ? (rose/strawberry full moon) Start restricted/fast North America
2 AUG. 16
3 SEPT. 15
4 OCT. 14 ? End restricted North America
5 NOV. 13
6 DEC. 12
Restricted full moons are 8-11 and 1-4.
On what date should people in Argentina fast; their summer or winter?They should fast in their summer not ours. Their scorching full-moon and therefore their restriction period will be after their summer solstice.
IF events are on June 17, does the not counted full moon of June 18, 2008 count?
Example;
A man in Argentina died on June 17, 2008 until what date does his widow wait? 2234The purpose of counting exactly 12 full-moons in a solar year (thereby skipping the 13th) out of which 4 are restricted is clearly stated in 936-37 as having to do with not viloting the restrication on hunting.
On the other hand, as far as waiting periods for marriage there is no skipping since we are simply to count 4 full-moon events + 10 days (i.e., until the crescent).
Peace,
Ayman
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Dear Nun salam
I posted the below quote some 20 pages back , probably when you were sick, and hence missed it.
Although brohter Ayman has posted enough clarifications, I am requoting just in case it might help in improving your understanding.
quote.
He does not need our fastings, it is for us , it probably does something good to our bodies, so
He wants us to fast from the first light , which is probably the earliest possible marker, to the night(end of dusk/isha) last possible marker, He could have easily prescribed , "From sun rise to sun set", but he doesnt, why? May be he wants our bodies to toil through a longer duration to extract optimum benifit.
If long duration is the criteria then , fasting in summer solictise makes sense. Rotating through winters, a fast is hardly a fast , infact a winter day fast is like not fasting at all ,
The guys down under can fast during their Red moon for achieving the prescribed benifit, It does not have to be in synch with we living up here,
Moreover the Ayah , saying , who so ever witnesses it shall... is clearly indicating/saying, .... when your time comes do it, and what is that time? summer , longest days , THe toughest time of the year to Cycle our mortal bodies. And indirectly conveying that they should not do it with us , because it will be their winters.
siki
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He does not need our fastings, it is for us , it probably does something good to our bodies, so
He wants us to fast from the first light , which is probably the earliest possible marker, to the night(end of dusk/isha) last possible marker, He could have easily prescribed , "From sun rise to sun set", but he doesnt, why? May be he wants our bodies to toil through a longer duration to extract optimum benifit.
Moreover the Ayah , saying , who so ever witnesses it shall... is clearly indicating/saying, .... when your time comes do it, and what is that time? summer , longest days , THe toughest time of the year to Cycle our mortal bodies. And indirectly conveying that they should not do it with us , because it will be their winters.siki
Sun when setting is a continuous process similar to full moon, so how can you precisely pinpoint the state of the sun for the end of the fast? If you mean after the sun set, then when after the sunset ? Once sun is set falls the night or in the middle of the sunset which is like witnessing moon in the middle of it changing its status
If long duration is the criteria then , fasting in summer solictise makes sense. Rotating through winters, a fast is hardly a fast , infact a winter day fast is like not fasting at all
Humans are so self cantered whereas God is the most aware of all, fasting in winter is like no fasting for you but not for others see below
Hello all,
Well it makes sense that ramadan should start earlier as it it were to cross over to the cooler months nearing winter, it would be very dangerous. For the cooler months we need food (thermogenic-yes we need food all year round too) and shelter and maybe the skins/furs of animals as extra clothings to keep warm. Well one should remember quran was revealed about 1200 years ago and the message had remained the same and also generations way way way before that also would have had such a similar Book Of God for their use. Of course the state of things now is quite different in terms in clothing etc, but there's no guarantee.BUT now, we need proof. Hopefully anyone of us would be able to come up with the answer.
salaam.....But for those who suffer from the shortage of food all seasons there is no debate hmm may be one of the aim is for us to feel how bad it is to be without food in the winter or in the summer.
The guys down under can fast during their Red moon for achieving the prescribed benifit, It does not have to be in synch with we living up here,
This is what I call cut and past to your liking.
peace
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Peace Ayman,
They should fast in their summer not ours. Their scorching full-moon and therefore their restriction period will be after their summer solstice.
The purpose of counting exactly 12 full-moons in a solar year (thereby skipping the 13th) out of which 4 are restricted is clearly stated in 936-37 as having to do with not viloting the restrication on hunting.
2008 FULL MOON DATES
8 JAN. 22 ? Start restricted/fast South Hemisphere
9 FEB. 21
10 MAR. 21
11 APR. 20 ? End restricted South Hemisphere
12 MAY 20
13 JUNE 18 (full moon not counted/skipped)
Summer Solstice 2008
1 JULY 18 ? Start restricted/fast North Hemisphere
2 AUG. 16
3 SEPT. 15
4 OCT. 14 ? End restricted North Hemisphere
5 NOV. 13
6 DEC. 12Actually, I remember being awed by the skipped/not counted 13th full moon on June 18, 2008 this year.
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
On Wednesday night, June 18th, step outside at sunset and look around. You'll see a giant form rising in the east. At first glance it looks like the full Moon. It has craters and seas and the face of a man, but this "moon" is strangely inflated. It's huge!
You've just experienced the Moon Illusion.http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/images/moonillusion/Kasaitis1_strip.jpg
There's no better time to see it. The full Moon of June 18th is a "solstice moon", coming only two days before the beginning of northern summer. This is significant because the sun and full Moon are like kids on a see-saw; when one is high, the other is low. This week's high solstice sun gives us a low, horizon-hugging Moon and a strong Moon Illusion.
Also see 13-moon Calendar with only difference being you have a lunar phase called no-name/ignore.
http//www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=A+13-Moon+Calendar+&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=
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Peace siki,
The guys down under can fast during their Red moon for achieving the prescribed benifit, It does not have to be in synch with we living up here,
People in Chicago (summer) and Buenos Aires (winter) would see the same big RED moon skipped on June 18, 2008.
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
A picture of the Full Moon - July 18, 2008 Start restricted/fast North Hemisphere
http//www.flickr.com/photos/avatar1/2681624896
A picture of the Full Moon - January 22, 2008 Start restricted/fast South Hemisphere
http//www.flickr.com/photos/rosenow_photography/2211281625/
http//farm3.static.flickr.com/2299/2211281625_c4c8b11b41.jpg?v=0
Above are nothing special NOR are they RED only regular full moons seen in both hemispheres when moon is opposite earth/sun.
http//www.curriki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Coll_Athabasca/Unit4%2DLesson3PhasesoftheMoon/phasesMoon.jpg
"Shahr Ramadan, which the Quran was descended in it, guidance to the people, and evidences from the guidance...
I'll leave you with the above evidences -- there is only one Ramadan.
Peace
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Peace Nun,
2008 FULL MOON DATES
8 JAN. 22 ? Start restricted/fast South Hemisphere
9 FEB. 21
10 MAR. 21
11 APR. 20 ? End restricted South Hemisphere
12 MAY 20
13 JUNE 18 (full moon not counted/skipped)
Summer Solstice 2008
1 JULY 18 ? Start restricted/fast North Hemisphere
2 AUG. 16
3 SEPT. 15
4 OCT. 14 ? End restricted North Hemisphere
5 NOV. 13
6 DEC. 12
Actually, I remember being awed by the skipped/not counted 13th full moon on June 18, 2008 which was HUGE!
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
On Wednesday night, June 18th, step outside at sunset and look around. You'll see a giant form rising in the east. At first glance it looks like the full Moon. It has craters and seas and the face of a man, but this "moon" is strangely inflated. It's huge!
You've just experienced the Moon Illusion.
There's no better time to see it. The full Moon of June 18th is a "solstice moon", coming only two days before the beginning of northern summer. This is significant because the sun and full Moon are like kids on a see-saw; when one is high, the other is low. This week's high solstice sun gives us a low, horizon-hugging Moon and a strong Moon Illusion.Both the full-moons before and after the summer solstice will have the large red moon appearance. However, remember that the term "ramadan" has two connotations
- Intense heat (the primary meaning).
- The color red (the secondary meaning).
While the full-moon before the summer solstice may appear large and red, only the full-moon after the solstice will be BOTH in the period of intense heat and appear large and red. This is also perfectly in line with counting only 12 full-moons and not counting the occasional 13th full-moon, which would be the one before the summer solstice.
Also see 13-moon Calendar with only difference being you have a lunar phase called no-name/ignore.
http//www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=A+13-Moon+Calendar+&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=This is not about calendars. I never proposed any calendar. However, there is nothing that prevents you or anyone from making and proposing a calendar based on the article.
This is about properly counting natural cosming phenomena in order not to violate the restrictions on hunting. We are to count EXACTLY 12 full-moons every single solar year regardless of whether we see 12 or 13. The traditional sectarian calendar will actually have some solar years with 13 full-moons. So their's is actually a 13-moon calendar as you describe but they circumvent the god's restriction by calling the "13" as 1, or 2,...12 depending on when it occurs within their arbitrary calendar.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Nun,
Both the full-moons before and after the summer solstice will have the large red moon appearance. However, remember that the term "ramadan" has two connotations
- Intense heat (the primary meaning).
- The color red (the secondary meaning).
While the full-moon before the summer solstice may appear large and red, only the full-moon after the solstice will be BOTH in the period of intense heat and appear large and red. This is also perfectly in line with counting only 12 full-moons and not counting the occasional 13th full-moon, which would be the one before the summer solstice.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
What was large and red about it; typical full moon?
Full Moon - July 18, 2008
http//flickr.com/photos/texaseagle/2681791144/
http//farm4.static.flickr.com/3189/2681791144_28e620fff5.jpg?v=0
The skipped/not counted one on June 18 was HUGE; freaked me out, thought it was on a collision course with earth...lol
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
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Peace Nun,
Here is an actual picture of the scorching full-moon the night of July 17th-18th (remember that the "midnight" start of the new day is arbitrary and in the great reading the day starts with day break) that sister Marie took herself.
http//img186.imageshack.us/img186/9422/pleinelune2008002ne5.jpg
Taken from
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=17008.msg172650#msg172650
Notice that it takes on an a striking orange hue because the picture seems to have been taken after a while from its rising. Had sister Marie taken the picture a little earlier then it would have appeared more red. Generally, the lower it is on the horizon or the more dusty is the atmosphere (such as in the desert of Arabia), the more red it would appear.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Nun,
People in Chicago (summer) and Buenos Aires (winter) would see the same big RED moon skipped on June 18, 2008.
It is not the same. Please read patiently the article that you provided
?The full Moon of June 18th is a "solstice moon", coming only two days before the beginning of northern summer. This is significant because the sun and full Moon are like kids on a see-saw; when one is high, the other is low. This week's high solstice sun gives us a low, horizon-hugging Moon and a strong Moon Illusion.?
A picture of the Full Moon - July 18, 2008 Start restricted/fast North Hemisphere
A picture of the Full Moon - January 22, 2008 Start restricted/fast South Hemisphere
Above are nothing special NOR are they RED only regular full moons seen in both hemispheres when moon is opposite earth/sun.What was large and red about it; typical full moon?
Full Moon - July 18, 2008
The skipped/not counted one on June 18 was HUGE; freaked me out, thought it was on a collision course with earth...lol
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htmIf you notice, the picture from NASA was taken when the full-moon was very low behind the trees. Even the full-moon on the night of June 18th will appear white like other regular full moons after it has risen enough in the sky by the middle of the night. Remember that what is special about the solstice full-moon is that it takes a lower path than other full moons. So for the first few hours from its rise and last few hours before it sets, it is hanging very low and this is what gives it the reddish color.
"Shahr Ramadan, which the Quran was descended in it, guidance to the people, and evidences from the guidance...
I'll leave you with the above evidences -- there is only one Ramadan.This is baseless since you don?t seem to know the meaning of the Arabic word ?ramadan? and are thus unable to translate it.
Here is an actual picture of the scorching full-moon the night of July 17th-18th (remember that the "midnight" start of the new day is arbitrary and in the great reading the day starts with day break) that sister Marie took herself.
http//img186.imageshack.us/img186/9422/pleinelune2008002ne5.jpg
Taken from
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=17008.msg172650#msg172650
Notice that it takes on a striking orange hue because the picture seems to have been taken after a while from its rising. Had sister Marie taken the picture a little earlier then it would have appeared more red. Generally, the lower it is on the horizon or the more dusty is the atmosphere (such as in the desert of Arabia), the more red it would appear.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
Full moons come in all sorts of colors and names...
http//www.farmersalmanac.com/full-moon-namesJuly 18, 2008 (Ramadan North) was not a moon illusion (obvious from that picture).
Ignoring 13th ?no-name? is no different than intercalation and did not count largest scorching full moon illusion this year.
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
This is baseless since you don?t seem to know the meaning of the Arabic word ?ramadan? and are thus unable to translate it.
I see, you are back to acting the Pompous Sheik (great pseudonym if you ever want to change)... lol laugh
People fasting during Ramadan North
People fasting during Ramadan South
Fasting 4 months and 3 months for same offense/vow committed on different dates
Full moon illusions happen periodically during the seasons at different monthsHere is one during mid September 2008 in Southern Hemisphere...
http//www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24363112-5006784,00.htmlFor reasons above and others stated prior I have to disagree with "baseless" conjecture shahr/full moon.
http//www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,6256089,00.jpg
PeaceFly me to the moon ...
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Peace Nun,
Full moons come in all sorts of colors and names...
http//www.farmersalmanac.com/full-moon-names
July 18, 2008 (Ramadan North) was not a moon illusion (obvious from that picture).
Ignoring 13th ?no-name? is no different than intercalation and did not count largest scorching full moon illusion this year.
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htmAs I said, you assume that "ramadan" is meaningless despite that I already explained it and that you can look it up in dictionaries. The "ramadan/scorching full-moon" is about BOTH heat and red color. Only the solstice full-moon after the summer solstice satisfies both.
I see, you are back to acting the Pompous Sheik (great pseudonym if you ever want to change)... lol laugh
Pompous Sheik, now that is a great idea for a Halloween costume! laugh
But seriously, it is better than ignoring the key word "ramadan" in 2185 and assuming that it is meaningless.
People fasting during Ramadan North
People fasting during Ramadan South
Fasting 4 months and 3 months for same offense/vow committed on different dates
Full moon illusions happen periodically during the seasons at different monthsNo, only the full-moon around the summer solstice take the lowest path accross the horizon. You are contradicting the very article from NASA that you brought about the solitice moon being special
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
Here is one during mid September 2008 in Southern Hemisphere...
http//www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24363112-5006784,00.html
For reasons above and others stated prior I have to disagree with "baseless" conjecture shahr/full moon.You are of course free to disagree with NASA and me as well as disagree with the god for using the word "ramadan" and therefore assume that it is meaningless.
Peace,
Ayman
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"Shahr Ramadan, which the Quran was descended in it, guidance to the people, and evidences from the guidance...
I'll leave you with the above evidences -- there is only one Ramadan.
Peace
And only one Leilat ul Qadr in which the Quran was descended, guidance to the people of the whole world.
peace -
And only one Leilat ul Qadr in which the Quran was descended, guidance to the people of the whole world.
peaceBrother Ayman salam
So, finally I see someone pointing a valid pot hole on the way to the full moon theory, we need to adress this issue.
The night of decree, in which the The great reading was desended, and the angels and spirit descend down in it, by thy lords leave, to carry out every command....
siki
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Peace Siki,
So, finally I see someone pointing a valid pot hole on the way to the full moon theory, we need to adress this issue.
The night of decree, in which the The great reading was desended, and the angels and spirit descend down in it, by thy lords leave, to carry out every command....Do you think that the night of measure happened only once ever?
Also, why do you think it is called the night of measure? What is the great reading telling us about what is being measured?
Peace,
Ayman
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peace brother Ayman
Apparently , I understand that Quran was sent down on the night of shahr ramadan where Mohammad (pbuh) lived, and was the night of decree, for that particular year. Before, as well as from then on,the angels and the spirit have been descending down on every such night to tweek and set the parameters for the next year.
You think they do it twice a year, on different times for Northerners and southerners?
Actually I havn't delibrated this issue in my mind , so any input from your side ?
siki
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Peace all,
Thanks Ayman for clarifying that point. It did get confused for me but I looked again at the full moon listing you posted earlier and yes, it needs to be skipped. My mistake however doesn't take away from the clarity of the verses on the issue that the 4 ashhur hurum are consistent. Here's another verse that I overlooked to mention
596 Made lawful for you all is the game of the sea and its food as provision for you all and the travelers and made unlawful upon you all is the game of the land as long as you are 'huruman' (prohibited/ restricted). And fear the god whom to Him you are being gathered.
So, finally I see someone pointing a valid pot hole on the way to the full moon theory, we need to adress this issue.
The night of decree, in which the The great reading was desended, and the angels and spirit descend down in it, by thy lords leave, to carry out every command....
siki
To Siki,
Curiously, what are you seeing as the pothole? This was actually one of the verses to show that 'shahr' must mean 'full moon' since a full moon is also a night event. This keeps the verses consistent and precise. Or are you making another point here?
Umm Tariq
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Peace Siki,
Apparently , I understand that Quran was sent down on the night of shahr ramadan where Mohammad (pbuh) lived, and was the night of decree, for that particular year. Before, as well as from then on,the angels and the spirit have been descending down on every such night to tweek and set the parameters for the next year.
You think they do it twice a year, on different times for Northerners and southerners?
Actually I havn't delibrated this issue in my mind , so any input from your side ?At this stage, I believe that the answer to my second question is more important than the answer to the first one. So it is more important to answer the following questions
Why is it described as the night of measure? What is the great reading telling us about what is being measured?
In terms of the context of the timing and the night what is being measured? In this context, I think that it is the moon that is being measured as per 3639 and 105. The night of measure would be the night when this measurement of the moon starts. So the next question is when exactly does the measurement of the moon starts? In both 3639 and 105, we are told that the moon is measured in descending stages ("manazil". 3639 specifically states that the moon is measured in descending stages until it becomes like an old curved sheath (i.e., a crescent). So what shape does the moon descend from in stages until it becomes a crescent? This clearly can only be the full-moon. So this is the starting point of the measurement (i.e., the night of measure). So if one goes strictly by the definition given in 3639 and 105 then the night of measure is the night of the full-moon.
Of course, the night of a scorching full-moon by definition would also be a night of measure.
I think that, as you said, the scorching full-moon and thus the night of measure could happen twice a year, once for Northerners and another for Southerners so the night of measure could be twice a year. This is one possibility.
At this stage, I think it is more probable and logical that the night of measure is any night with a full moon.
In this case, the night of a scorching full-moon by definition would also be a night of measure, but not vice-versa.
At any rate, each point on earth along the direction of its rotation will have a different start of the night within the earth's 24 hour cycle. So the idea that the night of measure happens exactly at the same time for everyone, even within the same hemisphere is not grounded in reality to begin with and Nun's objection would equally apply to the traditional understanding.
Chapter 97 talks about the controllers and the spirit descending. It also talks about this night being peaceful until dawn. Yet, there is no evidence of any particular night of the year where crime is less than any other night or where wars suddenly stopped or people don't get murdered. So there is a lot about Chapter 97 that we don't understand. Perhaps the god is talking about this being a night of peace only with the awareness and realization of what this night is. I think that it goes back to our perception, since as far as the god is concerned, the moon is only one moon. The stages are just an optical effect in the narrow band of the human visible electromagnetic spectrum.
These are deep philosophical questions but we wouldn't be asking them if we hadn't reached a better understanding. If we were still content with the traditional way, we wouldn't be asking them. So I think that we are on the right track to reach a new level of understanding.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace,
Curiously, what are you seeing as the pothole? This was actually one of the verses to show that 'shahr' must mean 'full moon' since a full moon is also a night event.
Full moons also happen during the day as this year and next three years...
Saudi Arabia ? Makkah (Ramadan North)
http//www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=151&month=7&year=2008&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1Jul 18, 2008 Full at 1059 AM
Jul 7, 2009 Full at 1222 PM
Jun 26, 2010 Full at 231 PM
Jul 15, 2011 Full at 940 AMJohannesburg, South Africa (No Ramadan South)
http//www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?obj=moon&month=7&year=2008&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1&n=111Jul 18, 2008 Full at 959 AM
Jul 7, 2009 Full at 1122 AM
Jun 26, 2010 Full at 131 PM
Jul 15, 2011 Full at 840 AMI think that, as you said, the scorching full-moon and thus the night of measure could happen twice a year, once for Northerners and another for Southerners so the night of measure could be twice a year. This is one possibility.
I think not, night is simultaneous in both the north and south hemispheres.
http//www.goglobalwarmingawareness2007.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/800px-earth-lighting-equinox_en.png