Hot/"ramadan" Answer

Rami

Peace Rami,

I completely agree, brother. Fasting is definately mentioned in the Torah, but not during the period of the Islaamic "shahru ramadhan". The Jews were told to hold special significance to the days of Yom Kippur, Sukkot, and Passover, not to mention Shabbat (Sabbath) and other special holidays occurring in certain months. However, none of these are in line with the sectarian concept of Islaamic "ramadhan" at all. The "hajj" months should also be mentioned in the Torah, since they're declared to be well known" by the Jews and Nazarenes... I can understand the Jewish format of prayer (or Islaamic salaat) because they offered sacrifices during the periods of (1) morning, (2) noon/afternoon, and (3) evening, which was replaced by their three daily prayers. I think these are in harmony with the Islaamic salaat observances too, and we should also uphold three daily observances. This is fine. But many other things are starting to conflict in some serious areas. Since the Qur'aan confirms (authenticates) the Torah, then if something conflicts with the Torah, it also conflicts with the teachings of the Qur'aan... In order to fully understand the Islaamic standpoint on various monotheistic doctrines, it may be necessary to examine the teachings of the previous scripture, the Torah...

Peace,

Ahmad

???BOGUS SCRIPTURE ???

Pseudo

Peace,

Although the idea that we can learn the Hajj from the Torah is interesting which is supported by the fact that the Hajj months are well known and if we don't know, we should ask the people of the Zikr(which is the Book of Moses). Regarding Ramadan, I can't find anything in the Hebrew calendar like it.

It's not what is being implied, read verses in context, Torah is in Quran else no need to repeat stories.

See reply http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597564.msg192940#msg192940

New moon and it's cycles were known and used by all peoples across the world. Issues and intercalation are due to trying to sync days to lunar cycles or lunar cycles to solar cycles. No need

count days dawn-sunset
count years solstice-solstice
count 12 months (new moon-new moon) in year
Restart count for next 12 lunar cycles with new moon after solstice (start Ramadan next dawn)

1825 And they stayed in their cave three hundred years and add nine

300 solar years = (lunar cycles x 12) 309 lunar years

2827 He said "That I, I want , that I marry you to one (of) my two daughters, those two, on that you hire to me (yourself for) eight hijajin, so if you completed ten...

Hajj equated with years, one Ramadan/Hajj per year, 300 in 300 years, not 309 as would be case under current Islamic calendar.

Peace

ayman

Peace Pseudo,

Go-ahead and critic.

Thank you for sharing your understanding. Sharing your understanding has already helped people see a different angle and hopefully will help everyone get closer to the best understanding. I am very familiar with your theory because at one point a few years ago before I reached my present understanding, I actually considered it. Therefore, don't take what I am going to say as criticism targeted at you. I am merely sharing the same exact critic that I told myself as I was going through my own thought process on the matter.

Day/time (for fasting) dawn-sunset
Month/shahr/time lunar cycle (29.53059 days + nights)
Solar year (365.242199 days + nights) has 12 lunar cycles
Simple as that; they are a clock and no need to sync months to years or days to months/years

This was the first problem that led me to abandon that "shahr" means "lunar cycle" and instead means "full-moon". Whether it is the lunar cycle based on the new moon or the full moon, it is a fact that the solar year doesn't have 12 lunar cycles. the fact is that it has 12.37 cycles. So this certainly violates 936, which clearly tells us that we should always count only 12 "shahr".

2197 The Hajj (are in) known months
I am of the opinion these are the months known throughout antiquity by all peoples

Unfortunately, there are no such "months" known "throughout antiquity by all peoples". In fact, people have always used and continued to use different calendars with different months. This is reality.

On the other hand, what ALL people knew were the full-moon universal cosmic events. Therefore, all civilizations have always known the harvest full-moon and it is not a coincidence that it precisely corresponds to the feast/"hajj" Sukkot of the people of the book. It is not a coincidence that this biggest feast ("al-hajj al-akbar&quot is precisely full-moon number FOUR counting from the scorching/"ramadhan" full moon after the summer solstice.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvest_moon

It is also not a coincidence that ALL people knew that the hunting restriction was lifted and hunting resumed afterwards and therefore, the next full-moon is called Hunter Moon

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter's_moon

The name was used by people all over the world. In fact even Native Americans who didn't come into contact with Europeans until after the discovery of the Americas, used the same exact name Hunter Moon as the Europeans.

So indeed everyone knew about the full-moons marking the feast/"hajj" and hunting restrictions in the summer when crops are plentiful and wild animals are too young. They also knew about the lifting of the hunting restrictions after this period and thus the next full-moon was named Hunter moon by people from all over, even people who never came into contact.

Also that Hajj starts after new moon (known to all peoples) following summer solstice; this year June 23
http//www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/calendar/index.php?monthyear=6/2009

There are several major problems with the above

The feasts of the people of the book don't start with the new moon. They start with the full-moon. The festival of Matzot and the feast of hagg HaSukkot start at the time of the full moons. In particular, the hagg HaSukkot, the most important feast (al-hajj al-akbar) for the people of the book (and all people), falls on the last full-moon of the restricted full-moons starting from the scorching full-moon.
The term "new moon" never occurs in the great reading. So this is a completely invented meaning. On the other hand, the meaning of "shahr" as full-moon is clearly given in Classical Arabic dictionaries.
The new moon is impossible to witness by the vast majority of people. Now and in the past, people had to rely on religious/political authorities to tell them about when the new moon occurs. This is probably the main reason why it is in the best interest of religious authorities to use the new moon and not the full-moon for timing.

This solves the inequality issues; replace shahr with lunar cycle/time
2247 and that a day/time at your Lord as a thousand years from what you count
2185 Time Ramadan, which the Quran was descended in it, guidance to the people...
...so who witnessed from you the time, so he should fast it
2226 for those who swear away from their women (wives), waiting 4 cycles
2234 and those who are made to die from you, and they leave spouses, they wait with themselves 4 cycles and 10
492 so who does not find, so fasting 2 cycle times following each other
92 so go in the earth, 4 cycles
3412 and to Solomon the wind its going early time and its departure time
654 if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term/count 3 cycles

This creates major inequalities and inconsistencies

It creates a major inconsistency between 2226 and 2228, which clearly show that we are consistently counting events and not a fixed period.
It creates inequality between 2185, which now according to you says that the great reading was descended it in a cycle, while 971 clearly says that it was descended in a night. The correct understanding of "shahr" as "full-moon" automatically resolves when this night is and I didn't even notice it until sister Marie pointed my attention to it.
It creates inequality between 2184 and 2185 since now according to you the abstinence is for a complete cycle (~29 days) but 2184 clearly says a few (ma3doodat) days (3-10 days).
It creates redundancy in 2185 since if it was known that it was a cycle (29 days) then "complete the count" is redundant and useless info.
It violates the clear command in 936 to count only 12 "shahr" because using "cycle" to mean "shahr" results in counting 12.37 and not 12. The only way that we can possibly count 12 is if "shahr" is not a continuous period but is an integer event.

Could also be the two equinox months, although will go with your hot moon/s definition.

No, it cannot be the equinoxes as per 1712. In 1712 we are clearly told that the god made the night and day for knowing the number of years. The only way to use the night and day to know the number of years is to use them to mark the period between the shortest/longest night/day and the next shortest/longest night/day. These are the solstices and not the equinoxes. Of course, the etymology of "ramadhan" points to the summer solstice and it also not a coincidence that it fits perfectly with everything we know about harvest feasts/"hajj" and hunting restriction.

As a side note, what you are doing (without realizing it) is that by using to the new moon after the solstice, you would be counting 12 new moons in a year and skipping the occasional 13th one. But this contradicts your own understanding of "shahr" being a "cycle" and not an "event".

As you can see from above, the only criticism you had was of ?shahr? as ?full-moon? because you thought there is an issue of inequality. This is not a real issue since inequality is not an issue in the same way that inequality in counting the waiting period based on menstruations is not an issue as is made clear by 2226 and 2228. On the other hand, your theory of ?shahr? meaning ?lunar cycle starting with the new-moon? creates a plethora of problems and inconsistencies.

As I said, I already know all the major problems with your theory because at one point I held the same view as you and the critique that I said to you above, I had already said to myself. May we all be from those who hear what is being said and then follow the best.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Ahmad,

Your depiction of the Qur'aanic calendar is very similar to the ancient and modern Jewish calendar; it differs in the identification of the period. You say the beginning of a month is determined by the sighting of the full moon, while the Jews and Nazarenes insist on sighting the new moon, just like sectarian Muslims...

The great reading is not talking about calendars at all. It is talking about natural cosmic phenonmena independent from any calendar ans that are used to time the hunting restriction, the feast and the fast. Also, although the Jews use the new moon to begin their month, their feasts/hagg actually begin on the full-moon. Remember that the god said that the feast/hagg (not months) is known "shahr".

So, is it possible that the "shahr" is referring to a new moon instead of the full one? Don't they consist of equal time periods (i.e. waiting 2 full moons is equal to waiting 2 new moons)? Since both of them are based on the actual natural factors in the universe, determined as timing mechanisms, neither of these can be accurately called "arbitrary" or "inconsistent". What do you think? Can this time or occurance called "shahru ramadhan" be referring to the sighting of the new moon during a hot time of the year (i.e. during the summer solstice)?

Please see my response to Pseudo above to see why new moon is not correct.

Peace,

Ayman

Pseudo

Peace Ayman,

Thank you for sharing your understanding. Sharing your understanding has already helped people see a different angle and hopefully will help everyone get closer to the best understanding.

Likewise, thank you for being diligent. Your understanding has helped me see in a new light. It seems the only difference with our opinions is with new moon or full moon.

This was the first problem that led me to abandon that "shahr" means "lunar cycle" and instead means "full-moon". Whether it is the lunar cycle based on the new moon or the full moon, it is a fact that the solar year doesn't have 12 lunar cycles. the fact is that it has 12.37 cycles. So this certainly violates 936, which clearly tells us that we should always count only 12 "shahr".

No need to sync, see prior reply above
12 lunar cycles occur in one year, similar to your dropping/not counting a cycle.
Count 12 cycles (new moon-new moon) in one year
Restart count for next 12 cycles starting with new moon after solstice (Ramadan begins next dawn)

So indeed everyone knew about the full-moons marking the feast/"hajj" and hunting restrictions in the summer when crops are plentiful and wild animals are too young. They also knew about the lifting of the hunting restrictions after this period and thus the next full-moon was named Hunter moon by people from all over, even people who never came into contact.

Perhaps a separate topic (occurs same time of year), let's figure out new or full moon after solstice.

There are several major problems with the above

The feasts of the people of the book don't start with the new moon. They start with the full-moon.
The term "new moon" never occurs in the great reading. So this is a completely invented meaning. On the other hand, the meaning of "shahr" as full-moon is clearly given in Classical Arabic dictionaries.

People of the book and all cultures used new moons, Quran mentions moon phases/sequences/steps (105 and 3639)

The new moon is impossible to witness by the vast majority of people. Now and in the past, people had to rely on religious/political authorities to tell them about when the new moon occurs. This is probably the main reason why it is in the best interest of religious authorities to use the new moon and not the full-moon for timing.

As for witness, I'll refer you to a prior post

It is just like "ywm" can be a marker or a 24 hour period. So it is used as a marker to mean "now" (a fixed point of time) and not a 24 hour period, for example in 53.

In addition one can argue that a 1% new moon is more distinguishable than 99% full moon. We know that new moons and full moons happened during days and nights. We know that even a spec of light is always easier to discern, how eyes work, we see stars in the night. If a person woke up went out side without knowing, which is easier to distinguish?

1% new moon during daytime (worst viewing)

http//www.karaite-korner.org/1Oct2008Jerusalem_a_small.jpg

99% before/after full moon during night (optimum viewing)
http//farm4.static.flickr.com/3158/2589465288_9d4638f7ae.jpg

99% full moon during the day or night is impossible to distinguish from a 100% full moon.

http//online.edfac.unimelb.edu.au/blog/2008group31/files/2008/05/moon-during-the-day-22-05-08.JPG

This creates major inequalities and inconsistencies

It creates a major inconsistency between 2226 and 2228, which clearly show that we are consistently counting events and not a fixed period.

Already addressed earlier, wait does not always imply to wait on full moons; wait can mean event or time length.
http//www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=4352
Browse Root

It creates inequality between 2185, which now according to you says that the great reading was descended it in a cycle, while 971 clearly says that it was descended in a night. The correct understanding of "shahr" as "full-moon" automatically resolves when this night is and I didn't even notice it until sister Marie pointed my attention to it.

One night is part of the cycle. Statement that Quran (even if one ayat) descended in June is true in any night in June.

It creates inequality between 2184 and 2185 since now according to you the abstinence is for a complete cycle (~29 days) but 2184 clearly says a few (ma3doodat) days (3-10 days).

This is relative as in 1220 (a low price) or 118, 324 (a short time). Few/some is

Fee bidAAi sineena
304 In few years

falabitha fee alssijni bidAAa sineena
1242 so he stayed in the prison few/some years.

It creates redundancy in 2185 since if it was known that it was a cycle (29 days) then "complete the count" is redundant and useless info.

Not so, read in context to see why...

285 ...and who was sick or on (a) journey, so numbered/counted from other days. God wills/wants with you the ease and does not want with you the difficulty/hardship, and to complete the term...

It violates the clear command in 936 to count only 12 "shahr" because using "cycle" to mean "shahr" results in counting 12.37 and not 12. The only way that we can possibly count 12 is if "shahr" is not a continuous period but is an integer event.

As a side note, what you are doing (without realizing it) is that by using to the new moon after the solstice, you would be counting 12 new moons in a year and skipping the occasional 13th one. But this contradicts your own understanding of "shahr" being a "cycle" and not an "event".

Same as a day can be dawn-sunset or start of a new era; the month of fasting; the year of Noah.

As you can see from above, the only criticism you had was of ?shahr? as ?full-moon? because you thought there is an issue of inequality. This is not a real issue since inequality is not an issue in the same way that inequality in counting the waiting period based on menstruations is not an issue as is made clear by 2226 and 2228. On the other hand, your theory of ?shahr? meaning ?lunar cycle starting with the new-moon? creates a plethora of problems and inconsistencies.

Politely disagree, see prior replies, and again you fasted on the wrong full moon, evidenced that last years 2008 full moon illusion occurred on June 18th only 3 days before solstice, reason it was huge

http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm

http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/images/moonillusion/Kasaitis1_strip.jpg

The full moon on July 18th 2008, almost a month after solstice was average, nothing compared to above.

May we all be from those who hear what is being said and then follow the best.

Of course, that is Quran!

Peace

farida

Peace Pseudo,

We have been hearing this since you were Nun.

Salaam

I am so happy that Nun is back. ;D

welcome Pseudo
peace

ayman

Peace Pseudo,

Likewise, thank you for being diligent. Your understanding has helped me see in a new light. It seems the only difference with our opinions is with new moon or full moon.

This is actually not our only difference. There is one more difference which is causing several problems in your understanding. The other difference is that you are not considering the new moon but you are consideing the new moon cycle.

No need to sync, see prior reply above
12 lunar cycles occur in one year, similar to your dropping/not counting a cycle.

This is not similar. You are counting a continuous time period (a cycle). Unlike an integer event, in a continuous time period fractions must be counted. Hence, one can get half a cycle or a third of a cycle. On the other hand, the event of the full moon (or the new moon) either happens or doesn't (0 or 1).

Count 12 cycles (new moon-new moon) in one year
Restart count for next 12 cycles starting with new moon after solstice (Ramadan begins next dawn)

This is false. You don't get 12 cycles in a year. You get 12 and a fraction. If you are counting only complete cycles between solstices then you will sometimes get 11 cycles and not 12. For example, if the first new moon event after the solstice occurs on July 17 then you will only count 11 complete cycles in a year (with the last complete cycle ending June 1st). So you either have to count fractions or you will end up with 11 new moon cycles. Try it. This is probably why Anwar chose to use a fixed cycle of 30 days that is disconnected from the moon.

Perhaps a separate topic (occurs same time of year), let's figure out new or full moon after solstice.

People of the book and all cultures used new moons,

No. When it came to timing the "hajj", they used full-moon. Also, this is not just about the people of the book but about all people. All people used the full-moon to time the harvest feast/"hajj" and the resumption of hunting.

Quran mentions moon phases/sequences/steps (105 and 3639)

But NEVER specifically the new-moon. If you disagree then show even one passage that does.

In addition one can argue that a 1% new moon is more distinguishable than 99% full moon. We know that new moons and full moons happened during days and nights. We know that even a spec of light is always easier to discern, how eyes work, we see stars in the night. If a person woke up went out side without knowing, which is easier to distinguish?
1% new moon during daytime (worst viewing)
99% before/after full moon during night (optimum viewing)
99% full moon during the day or night is impossible to distinguish from a 100% full moon.

It is extremely hard to witness the new-moon under any conditions. I guarantee that you have NEVER witnessed it. What you see is typically the 1-3 days old new-moon. On the other hand, you undoubtedly witnessed the full-moon many times. This is reality.

Already addressed earlier, wait does not always imply to wait on full moons; wait can mean event or time length.
http//www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=4352
Browse Root

Again, it ALWAYS means waiting for an event and not counting a continuous time period. Read the passages carefully. The event is sometimes victory or defeat (4141) or the coming of the god's decree (924) or two good outcomes (952) or waiting for things to turn against you (99, or until a hoped for event (2325, 5714), or until judgment day (20135), or a calamity that time brings (5230, 31).

Moreover, the parallels in 2226 and 2228 indicate that the method of counting is the same.

One night is part of the cycle. Statement that Quran (even if one ayat) descended in June is true in any night in June.

No. Otherwise it would have been sufficient to simply say the specific night.

This is relative as in 1220 (a low price) or 118, 324 (a short time). Few/some is
Fee bidAAi sineena
304 In few years
falabitha fee alssijni bidAAa sineena
1242 so he stayed in the prison few/some years.

In all the contexts "ma3doodat" means few. Also, this doesn't resolve the redundancy if it is already known that "shahr" means "new moon cycle" or 29 days.

Not so, read in context to see why...
285 ...and who was sick or on (a) journey, so numbered/counted from other days. God wills/wants with you the ease and does not want with you the difficulty/hardship, and to complete the term...

I don't see how this resolves the redundancy.

Same as a day can be dawn-sunset or start of a new era; the month of fasting; the year of Noah.
Politely disagree, see prior replies, and again you fasted on the wrong full moon, evidenced that last years 2008 full moon illusion occurred on June 18th only 3 days before solstice, reason it was huge
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16jun_moonillusion.htm
The full moon on July 18th 2008, almost a month after solstice was average, nothing compared to above.

The full-moon around the solstice is not just about being red and appearing bigger, the term "scorching" is also about heat. Only the one AFTER the solstice fits all the parameters since it will certainly be hotter at the time of the moon after the solstice than the one before the solstice. You are also contradicting what you said above about "Restart count with new moon after solstice". In other words, the one before the summer solstice that is so close to it (under 11 days) is going to be the 13th new or full moon (in my case full-moon) which is not counted.

Peace,

Ayman

Pseudo

Peace Ayman,

the event of the full moon (or the new moon) either happens or doesn't (0 or 1).
...So you either have to count fractions or you will end up with 11 new moon cycles. Try it. This is probably why Anwar chose to use a fixed cycle of 30 days that is disconnected from the moon.

Same as you drop a cycle; count 12 whole/complete in a year starting from solstice.

http//eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/phase/phases2001.html
New Moon Cycle
Solstice
07/03/2008 1
08/01/2008 2
08/30/2008 3
09/29/2008 4
10/28/2008 5
11/27/2008 6
12/27/2008 7
01/26/2009 8
02/25/2009 9
03/26/2009 10
04/25/2009 11
05/24/2009 12
Solstice
06/22/2009 1
07/22/2009 2
08/20/2009 3
09/18/2009 4
10/18/2009 5
11/16/2009 6
12/16/2009 7
01/15/2010 8
02/14/2010 9
03/15/2010 10
04/14/2010 11
05/14/2010 12
06/12/2010 no count
Solstice
7/11/2010 1

But NEVER specifically the new-moon. If you disagree then show even one passage that does.

It says use the phases/sequences/steps (105 and 3639) so we use them

http//www.rodurago.de/en/index.php?month=2&year=2009&geodata=40.45,-74.00,-5&site=details&link=calendar#showcalendar

It is extremely hard to witness the new-moon under any conditions. I guarantee that you have NEVER witnessed it. What you see is typically the 1-3 days old new-moon. On the other hand, you undoubtedly witnessed the full-moon many times. This is reality.

Others for thousands of years have. I did see last year's big moon before the solstice and it freaked me out, although not sure if it was a full moon or not.

How long is a full moon event; a minute, an hour, a day, what is the "window" to see/witness the moment?

Again, it ALWAYS means waiting for an event and not counting a continuous time period. Read the passages carefully. The event is sometimes victory or defeat (4141) or the coming of the god's decree (924) or two good outcomes (952) or waiting for things to turn against you (99, or until a hoped for event (2325, 5714), or until judgment day (20135), or a calamity that time brings (5230, 31).

Moreover, the parallels in 2226 and 2228 indicate that the method of counting is the same.

No, the widows in waiting extra 10 days appended to the event destroy that argument.

2234 And those who are made to die from you, and they leave spouses/wives, they wait with themselves four months, and ten (days).

The above wait period 4 events + 10 days = continuous time.

Year Month Day Time Day of week
2009 Mar 11 0240 Wed

Example two men expire on the same night of full moon leaving widows and no one is there to witness, all were sleeping, only person awake was blind (hint). lol

Mr. X expires 2 hrs before full moon, wait time = 3 lunar months + 10 days
Mr. Y expires 2 hrs after a full moon, wait time = 4 lunar months + 10 days

No. Otherwise it would have been sufficient to simply say the specific night

To say I was born during a night in March is a true statement.

In all the contexts "ma3doodat" means few.

I render it as "numbered" in all contexts.

I don't see how this resolves the redundancy.

I don?t see the redundancy, it?s a simple statement. If sick, make up days missed

285 ?God wills with you the ease and does not want with you the difficulty, and to complete the term...

The full-moon around the solstice is not just about being red and appearing bigger, the term "scorching" is also about heat.

I take it you'll cease and desist using full moon illusion as an argument. ;D

Peace

Pseudo

Salaam

I am so happy that Nun is back. ;D

welcome Pseudo
peace

Salaam Farida -- thank you.

How far away can one really go except a few clicks on a key board. ;D

peace

ayman

Peace Pseudo,

Same as you drop a cycle; count 12 whole/complete in a year starting from solstice.
http//eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/phase/phases2001.html
New Moon Cycle
Solstice
07/03/2008 1
08/01/2008 2

You are confused in your counting. You are saying that you are counting the cycle but you are actually counting the event of the new moon. On 7/03/2008 there is no complete cycle. The complete cycle is from 7/03/2008 to 08/01/2008 ----> 1 cycle. So unless you changed your mind and now acknowledge that we are counting events and not cycles, you should write

07/03/2008
08/01/2008 1

This is why you will often get 11 cycles only in a year.

It says use the phases/sequences/steps (105 and 3639) so we use them

So do you finally acknowledge that the new moon is NEVER mentioned in the great reading?

On the other hand, one of the meanings of "shahr" clearly given by Classical Arabic dictionaries is "full-moon".

Others for thousands of years have.

Why is it always "others" whenever I ask this question? Is this what is meant by 2185 "whoever OTHER than you witnesses"? )

I did see last year's big moon before the solstice and it freaked me out, although not sure if it was a full moon or not.
How long is a full moon event; a minute, an hour, a day, what is the "window" to see/witness the moment?

The one after the summer solstice will also freak you out and it will be during the hot time of the year. It is not about a minute or an hour. It is not about the theoretical full-moon which may not be even above the horizon. It is about witnessing the optical phenomenon of the scorching full-moon as it slowly rises during the night taking a low path accross the horizon.

No, the widows in waiting extra 10 days appended to the event destroy that argument.
2234 And those who are made to die from you, and they leave spouses/wives, they wait with themselves four months, and ten (days).
The above wait period 4 events + 10 days = continuous time.

No. This actually destroys your argument. Had it been a continuous time then the god would have said 4 1/3 "shahr" instead of 4 shahr and 10 days.

Moreover, it is a fact that cresents are used as timing devices (2189) and the 10 days after the full-moon is the time it takes the moon to descend in stages until it becomes a crescent (3639). So here for the 10 days, the crescent can be used to time them. Otherwise, it is impossible for the crescent to time any 10 day period, whether "hajj" (which is 10 days) or the waiting period in 2234.

To say I was born during a night in March is a true statement.

You made it so by making one statement.

I render it as "numbered" in all contexts.

You are then inventing your own meaning since this is not a meaning that is supported by Classical Arabic dictionaries.

I don?t see the redundancy, it?s a simple statement. If sick, make up days missed
285 ?God wills with you the ease and does not want with you the difficulty, and to complete the term...

Making up the days already covers it. Your understanding makes completing the term redundant.

I take it you'll cease and desist using full moon illusion as an argument. ;D

The full moon illusion freaked you out so it is definitely a strong argument )

Peace,

Ayman

Tlepsh

Peace Pseudo,

So do you finally acknowledge that the new moon is NEVER mentioned in the great reading?

On the other hand, one of the meanings of "shahr" clearly given by Classical Arabic dictionaries is "full-moon".

Moreover, it is a fact that cresents are used as timing devices (2189) and the 10 days after the full-moon is the time it takes the moon to descend in stages until it becomes a crescent (3639). So here for the 10 days, the crescent can be used to time them. Otherwise, it is impossible for the crescent to time any 10 day period, whether "hajj" (which is 10 days) or the waiting period in 2234.

Peace Ayman,

In 2234 waiting period is clearly stated to be four shahr and 10. But how do we know that hajj is to last 10 days?

According to Lisanul Arab the moon is called hilal during the two days after the appearance of the new moon and the two days before the appearance of the new moon. The other days it is called qamar including the full moon. So according to the classical dictionaries the time from full moon to hilal is more than 10 days.

The information for hilal is given under the root word(&#1604
And in 2.234 why God did not say 4 shahr and one hilal; if it is a fact that ahilla are used as timing devices? Is Ahilla is the plural of hilal really?

Lane?s Lexicon under the root word (&#1604 says
Hum ahlu ahlatin ( &#1613 and (&#1613 means They are people of the distinguished sort.

(&#1612 Ahliyatun means The quality of having a right, or just title, to a thing; worthiness, or desert meetness, or feetness; the state or quality, of meetness, or feetness, (of a person) for the bindingness of the rights which the law imposes for one upon him.

Does ahilla in 2189 have any relation with the meanings mentioned in Lane?s Lexicon?

ayman

Peace Tlepsh,

In 2234 waiting period is clearly stated to be four shahr and 10. But how do we know that hajj is to last 10 days?

2196 tells us that those who can't find a donation should fast 3 days in the feast and 7 days when they return (if their family is not in the inviolable institution of obedience). This means that if their family is, then they should fast the full 10 days in the feast.

Also, 2203 tells us that the feast is a few days (3-10) and that people can hurry in 2 days or stay longer. So the minimum is given as 2 days and the maximum is not given because it is known that "ma3doodat"/few means 3-10. So the maximum is automatically 10.

According to Lisanul Arab the moon is called hilal during the two days after the appearance of the new moon and the two days before the appearance of the new moon. The other days it is called qamar including the full moon. So according to the classical dictionaries the time from full moon to hilal is more than 10 days.

The information for hilal is given under the root word(&#1604

The dictionary wrongly implies that the lunar cycle is fixed 28 days when in fact it is 29.5 days so it can be 29 or 30 days. So starting from the 26th, this is 3-4 days and not 2. Also, the shape of the crescent as described in 3639 actually appears 4-5 days before the end of the cycle. This means 10 days after the full moon.

Also, the dictionary is clearly wrong and illogical in saying that otherwise the moon/"qamar" is named moon/"qamar" (I hope that you can see how the dictionary contradicts itself here). This is confirmed by the passages in the great reading that tell us, for example, that the moon/"qamar" swims in an orbit (2133). Surely, the moon in all its stages swims in an orbit and not just when full or except when not a crescent as the dictionary suggests.

As I said many times on this thread, the term "new-moon" is NEVER mentioned in the great reading. The term "ahilat" means crescents (both waning and waxing) and NOT "new moon".

And in 2.234 why God did not say 4 shahr and one hilal; if it is a fact that ahilla are used as timing devices? Is Ahilla is the plural of hilal really?

Because there are two types of crescents ?ahilla?. If you look up at the sky and see a crescent and you counted 10 days, you will know right away that it is the waning crescent. If you counted 15 days then it is the waxing crescent.

Unless there is a strong reason to doubt the dictionary meaning then it looks like the correct meaning, especially since it fits in the context of timing.

Lane?s Lexicon under the root word (&#1604 says
Hum ahlu ahlatin ( &#1613 and (&#1613 means They are people of the distinguished sort.
(&#1612 Ahliyatun means The quality of having a right, or just title, to a thing; worthiness, or desert meetness, or feetness; the state or quality, of meetness, or feetness, (of a person) for the bindingness of the rights which the law imposes for one upon him.
Does ahilla in 2189 have any relation with the meanings mentioned in Lane?s Lexicon?

The word ?ahal? also means things such as bring forth or offer (53) and a few other things. Arabic like all human languages is full of inconsistencies. So just because words share the same root it doesn?t mean that sometimes there will not be exceptions that diverge considerably from the root. For example, ?nifaq? (hypocrisy) and ?infaq? (spending) are both from the root NFQ. The same is true in all human languages, even for the same exact words. For example in English the word ?light? can mean the two completely different meanings of ?luminosity? or the opposite of ?heavy?. So please keep this in mind unless you irrationally believe that Arabic is some kind of divine language that suddenly fell from the sky.

Now back to your question about 2189. I don?t think that there is yet a convincing reason to doubt the meaning of ?ahilat? as ?crescents?, especially given the context of timing. If there is a convincing strong reason in the future and that better fits in the context then we can revisit.

Peace,

Ayman

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Rami,

???BOGUS SCRIPTURE ???

What are you saying is a "bogus scripture" - the Qur'aan or the Torah? -\

Peace Ayman,

Perhaps, "shahr ramadhan" equals "yom kippur". Both are decreed in the scriptures. What does the Qur'aan say about the fast of "yom kippur"? According to the some Jewish traditions, the Torah was given to Moses on at Mount Sinai on the "yom kippur" (day of atonement)... Coincidentally, the Qur'aan mentions this day as being the same day and observance

Ramadan is the (moon) during which the Qur'aan was revealed, providing guidance for the people, clear teachings, and "al-furqaan" (the criterion/statute book). Those of you who witness this (moon) shall fast therein... (2185)

Here, it says the criterion/statute book was sent down on "shahr ramadhan" as well, and this is the scripture sent down to Moses and Aaron (see 214. So, perhaps the "shahr ramadhan" is in harmony with the "yom kippur" of the Jews. Could this be a possibility?

Peace,

Ahmad

Tlepsh

Peace Ayman,

Thank you for your reply but I will repeat some of my questions

If I am not mistaken according your understanding from 2.189 Ahilla (the crescents) are timing devices for people and hajj. Because the time required from the full moon to waning crescent is 10 days and from waxing crescent to the full moon is 10 days. These 10 days fits with the 10 days of fasting, 10 days of hajj, and 10 days of the period in 2234.

If God says us that the crescents are timing devices and if the time between the full moon and any of the two crescents is 10 days; then why in 2234 it does not say that the women shall trabbasu 4 ashhur (full moon) and the hilal (the waning crescent) which is 4 full moons and 10 days?

God will not tell us that the (hilal)s are timing devices and he will not use this timing device for us. Therefore I have doubt that ahilla in 2.189 is something else than the crescents. The meaning of (mikat) in Lane?s Lexicon is given to be ?a time appointed for the performance of some action?

Each crescent (waning and waxing) lasts for 4-5 days. If we do not count the days how are we going to be sure that it is the crescent of the tenth day after the full moon? The shape of the crescent from the 10th day after the full moon to the 14th day full moon is almost the same as described in 36.39.

Pseudo

Peace Ayman,

07/03/2008
08/01/2008 1

This is why you will often get 11 cycles only in a year.

This is why you will always get 12 full moons in one year = 11 cycles.

lunar month x 11 = 324.83649 days

I'll have to rethink this whole thing, especially why 8 hajj is used not years.
http//islamawakened.org/Quran/28/27/

Only for future reference...

New Moon Cycle
http//eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/phase/phases2001.html

Solstices June 21 1806

1 Jul 14 1204
2 Aug 12 2303
3 Sep 11 1244
4 Oct 11 0501
5 Nov 9 2303
6 Dec 9 1740
7 Jan 8 1137
8 Feb 7 0344
9 Mar 7 1714
10 Apr 6 0355
11 May 5 1218
12 June 3 1923 (short)

Solstices June 20 2359 Universal Time (UT)

1 07/03/2008
2 08/01/2008
3 08/30/2008
4 09/29/2008
5 10/28/2008
6 11/27/2008
7 12/27/2008
8 01/26/2009
9 02/25/2009
10 03/26/2009
11 04/25/2009
12 05/24/2009

Solstice June 21 0545
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/EarthSeasons.php

1 06/22/2009 1935 UT
2 07/22/2009
3 08/20/2009
4 09/18/2009
5 10/18/2009
6 11/16/2009
7 12/16/2009
8 01/15/2010
9 02/14/2010
10 03/15/2010
11 04/14/2010
12 05/14/2010
00 06/12/2010 to Solstice June 21 1128

1 07/11/2010

Pseudo

So do you finally acknowledge that the new moon is NEVER mentioned in the great reading?

No. It is mentioned via inclusion along with all the other phases.

On the other hand, one of the meanings of "shahr" clearly given by Classical Arabic dictionaries is "full-moon".

Classical Arabic dictionaries are a tool not Quran and may lead to wrong conclusions, like tracing the month August in English to mean ?a person? named Augustus.

Why is it always "others" whenever I ask this question? Is this what is meant by 2185 "whoever OTHER than you witnesses"?

Ever think it has to do with the year 2009 not 1009 and we have calendars.

I do not use an abacus either while others still do?lol
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIiDomlEjJw

The one after the summer solstice will also freak you out and it will be during the hot time of the year. It is not about a minute or an hour. It is not about the theoretical full-moon which may not be even above the horizon. It is about witnessing the optical phenomenon of the scorching full-moon as it slowly rises during the night taking a low path accross the horizon.

That is the problem "will also" is not consistent, undistinguishable, actually confusing.
In addition, full moons "will also" occur during the day, as this year
http//www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/full/index.php
June 7 212 P.M.
July 7 522 A.M.

No. This actually destroys your argument. Had it been a continuous time then the god would have said 4 1/3 "shahr" instead of 4 shahr and 10 days.

What God would have said (according to you) is a disastrous statement. Stay with what God said in Quran.

Moreover, it is a fact that cresents are used as timing devices (2189) and the 10 days after the full-moon is the time it takes the moon to descend in stages until it becomes a crescent (3639). So here for the 10 days, the crescent can be used to time them. Otherwise, it is impossible for the crescent to time any 10 day period, whether "hajj" (which is 10 days) or the waiting period in 2234.

Impossible is this if last full moon event occurs in daytime ? there is ?a break? in the wait until the next dawn event, woman is technically free to cheat due to loophole in time.

Using cycles, start whatever day/time, wait 4 shahr + 10 (why word day/s is not used in verse?)

You are then inventing your own meaning since this is not a meaning that is supported by Classical Arabic dictionaries.

Arabic dictionaries are not Quran, if so tell us the meaning of kalala in 412/4176

1220 And they bought him with a unjust price, numbered silver coins

100 silver dimes, 40 silver quarters, 10 silver dollars ? numbered is relative.

Waothkuroo Allaha fee ayyamin maAAdoodatin
2203 And remember God in days numbered

waothkuroo Allaha katheeran laAAallakum tuflihoona
6210 and remember God much perhaps you succeed/win.

You see, you cannot catch Quran in a contradiction using few/little.

Making up the days already covers it. Your understanding makes completing the term redundant.

See 1854 and remember Leoxyz ? lol
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15275.msg146166#msg146166

The Reminder
5417 Walaqad yassarna alqurana lilththikri fahal min muddakirin
5422 Walaqad yassarna alqurana lilththikri fahal min muddakirin
5432 Walaqad yassarna alqurana lilththikri fahal min muddakirin
5440 Walaqad yassarna alqurana lilththikri fahal min muddakirin

The full moon illusion freaked you out so it is definitely a strong argument

Again, wrong full moon, it would also freak out people to start fasting on the wrong time like last year...

http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/images/moonillusion/Kasaitis1_strip.jpg

On Wednesday night, June 18th, step outside at sunset and look around. You'll see a giant form rising in the east. At first glance it looks like the full Moon. It has craters and seas and the face of a man, but this "moon" is strangely inflated. It's huge!

You've just experienced the Moon Illusion.

Peace

ayman

Peace Pseudo,

This is why you will always get 12 full moons in one year = 11 cycles.
lunar month x 11 = 324.83649 days
I'll have to rethink this whole thing, especially why 8 hajj is used not years.
http//islamawakened.org/Quran/28/27/
Only for future reference...
New Moon Cycle
http//eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/phase/phases2001.html
Solstices June 21 1806
1 Jul 14 1204
2 Aug 12 2303
3 Sep 11 1244
4 Oct 11 0501
5 Nov 9 2303
6 Dec 9 1740
7 Jan 8 1137
8 Feb 7 0344
9 Mar 7 1714
10 Apr 6 0355
11 May 5 1218
12 June 3 1923 (short)

Exactly 12 new moon EVENTS but only 11 CYCLES (i.e., you will be short when using cycles). Notice how when you count the event of the new moon as opposed to the cycle, it is impossible to get 11 and you will ALWAYS get 12 or 13 (out of which you count 12 as per 936) and this will automatically adjust the seasons. On the other hand, if you count cycles then most of the time you will only get 11 cycles in a year thereby violating 936. This is why we must count the EVENT and NOT the CYCLE. This is the ONLY way to use the moon. Now whether the event is the new moon or the full moon, this is another subject but at least you can now see that counting cycles is definitely wrong as one can see by actually trying to apply it to reality.

Solstice June 21 0545
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/EarthSeasons.php
1 06/22/2009 1935 UT
2 07/22/2009
3 08/20/2009
4 09/18/2009
5 10/18/2009
6 11/16/2009
7 12/16/2009
8 01/15/2010
9 02/14/2010
10 03/15/2010
11 04/14/2010
12 05/14/2010
00 06/12/2010 to Solstice June 21 1128
1 07/11/2010

Now you get it. Notice that by ALWAYS counting 12 events as opposed to the cycle, you are automatically and effortlessly adjusting the moon cycle with the seasons. You are doing this naturally and simply without having to resort to corrupt religious authorities to tell you when to intercalate (which was the main problem of the Jewish calendar).

Now the only remaining issue is whether it is the full moon or the new moon event that we are to count. I have already presented all the evidence for the full moon, including the indisputable fact that the word "shahr" itself means "full-moon". You also admitted that new moon is never specifically mentioned in the great reading but the cycle is mentioned (of which both new moon and full moon would be part). So I think that the evidence tilts very heavily towards full moon but I guess if you are still insisting on new moon that we will have to agree to disagree and leave it to the reader to decide.

Peace,

Ayman

Samia

Peace Ayman,

In 2234 waiting period is clearly stated to be four shahr and 10. But how do we know that hajj is to last 10 days?

According to Lisanul Arab the moon is called hilal during the two days after the appearance of the new moon and the two days before the appearance of the new moon. The other days it is called qamar including the full moon. So according to the classical dictionaries the time from full moon to hilal is more than 10 days.

The information for hilal is given under the root word(&#1604
And in 2.234 why God did not say 4 shahr and one hilal; if it is a fact that ahilla are used as timing devices? Is Ahilla is the plural of hilal really?

Lane?s Lexicon under the root word (&#1604 says
Hum ahlu ahlatin ( &#1613 and (&#1613 means They are people of the distinguished sort.

(&#1612 Ahliyatun means The quality of having a right, or just title, to a thing; worthiness, or desert meetness, or feetness; the state or quality, of meetness, or feetness, (of a person) for the bindingness of the rights which the law imposes for one upon him.

Does ahilla in 2189 have any relation with the meanings mentioned in Lane?s Lexicon?

The root for hilaal is Haa Laam Laam not Alif Haa Laam . The initial alif is not original but is the alif of the plural. Also, the plural is (Ahil-la) not (Ahila).
Classical dictionaries are not consistent with this "two-day" theory. Some say three (al-Sahhah fil-lugha), others say up to seven (al-Muheet), so we can't take them as authority in this matter.

ayman

Peace Samia,

The root for hilaal is Haa Laam Laam not Alif Haa Laam . The initial alif is not original but is the alif of the plural. Also, the plural is (Ahil-la) not (Ahila).
Classical dictionaries are not consistent with this "two-day" theory. Some say three (al-Sahhah fil-lugha), others say up to seven (al-Muheet), so we can't take them as authority in this matter.

Thank you for further clarifying this point.

Thanks,

Ayman

truthseeker11

Peace everyone,

Tlepsh makes an interesting point in the following thread

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597952.0

It seems that the interim for widows would be fourteen full moons !!!!