Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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From what I understand, if it says to abstain two 'shahr', we would abstain from the first full moon and end on the next full moon. The only question I have is that if shahr = full moon, why does the Qur'an mention the word consecutive to describe the two full moons in 492 and 584. If the word consecutive wasn't there, we would get the same meaning.
If shahr = month, then the word consecutive would make a difference because it is possible to fast two months that aren't consecutive. I don't see any way you can fast two full moons that aren't consecutive. I am just wondering because it is hard for me to accept that the word contribute to the meaning of these verses.
peace
Unfortunately, the English translation for the word "Muttatabeainne" as consective is not very accurate.
the root is Ta ba ain, which is "tabiae" the correct meaning of this root is , to follow , walking behind, succession of one to another,and when you have succession of one to another that can also mean to convey as consective.
If the translator has preconceived "shahareen" as two months, then he will always choose consective for Muttattabeainne, but it is actually conveying ,
Start Fasting after seeing a shahar, and follow it up to the next/second shahar.
This command is ensuring, That you start your fast only with the shahar using it as a marker, so that you do not make a mistake in counting, and then finish it up when you see the next shahar (full moon)
I hope it helps.
siki
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Peace,
Start Fasting after seeing a shahar, and follow it up to the next/second shahar.
This command is ensuring, That you start your fast only with the shahar using it as a marker, so that you do not make a mistake in counting, and then finish it up when you see the next shahar (full moon)
I hope it helps.
siki
Helps clearly see that all these verses are NOT applicable for blind men/women according to hot moon illusion...
2185 ?so who witnessed from you the month, so he should fast it
2226 For those who swear away from their women, waiting four months?
2234 ?they wait with themselves four months, and ten
492 ?and who killed a believer mistakenly, so freeing a believing neck
?so who does not find, so fasting two months following each other584... so who did not find, so fasting two months following each other (continuous)
Peace all,
for those who wish to carry on following the sectarian way of fasting, be my guest.
Jesus came to bani israeel to ease some of the burden of the laws of the torah, and i believe so
Mohamed (extended to all of humanity).
You wish to make matters harder for yourself and Mankind, fine, your accounting is with Allah who, as
He said to the People of the Book "...do not exaggerate in your deen..."...
Now I guarantee, that if the Ulamaa of the Sunna and Ijmaa gathered in the Azhar mosque and decided
with the approval of the so called "muslim" governments particularly Saudi Arabia, and the blessing of some
powers that be (I won't cite these lest I risk being in trouble as this is a public forum), so if they decided that
let us change the calendar to a luni-solar one, and use the first full moon after the summer solstice as being the start
of the calendar, and all the rest of it, with the only reason that it is more convenient, you will align yourself like little sheep that you are, because you do not follow the truth, but what you are told, you do not use your brain, but use Tabari, Shafie, the other scholars and all the other Khalifs past's Brains who made the decisions for you in years past.
You are the cattle...
No amount of evidence will convince you, you do not follow one God, but many gods, the gods who manipulate your views...2855
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Peace,
Another commandment is to listen to what is said and follow what is best,
Peace,The precondition for this commandment is all involved in the discussion are believers. The big question is are you, Ayman, quickduck, and all who follow you are believers or not. If you are believers or even muslims then why don't you all accept the challenge i gave you. Because you know the outcome is a defeat for you. And this negates you all as believers.
So I think the approach was sound, and we have a good work done,
The approach is one of the worst in the history of mankind and work done is misleading. Of course it is good for satan but not for humans. You don't have clue as to what a good approach is.
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Peace,
What if my children read the site? We should always correct our mistakes publicly in the same way that we give our opinion publicly. As we are now people of the book we bear a heavy burden to reveal it to people. The god has surrounded us all and at the end we can only be saved by his mercy. May the god help Eid, Farida, Guest, Q_Student and help us all for we were once like them.
Yes, you will mislead your children. You try to cover-up your mistakes! This is clearly evident in your posts.
Just worry about your own neck. You need not worry about us. You really do need to worry about yourself.
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Peace guest,
You have no clue what you are talking about.
The appreciation of my islam and my state of belief is between me and Allah.
Unlike you I will not dare to make comments on yours.
You are indeed an extremist as you are quick to condemn.
Why do you think Allah most of the time refers to the Believers in the past? (Ya ayooha alladhina amanoo)
Why do you think Allah never refers to the Muslims in the past tense?
I do not agree with Ayman's lack of diplomacy towards you, but since you are singling me out, this is slandering
and I will not take it.
Beware, perchance I am a better Muslim and I am closer to Allah than you ever will be... -
Peace,
Your truth = Ayman?s truth = FALSEHOOD
Ayman tells you to jump, and you say how high ? miserable decision/judgment indeed.
Your brain = Ayman?s Brain = Empty vessel - less than a bird brain. Even a bird would detect this simple falsehood.
You use quickduck (quack, quack) and Ayman as your scholar ? They are making decision for you.
one off topic question How old are you ?
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Holy eff you guys...keep it up...actually, this thread will be locked in a few minutes...lol (actually I don't know)
Eid/Rex/Noob/whatever (I guess you're the devout anti-19 spam-a-whole-lot-of-numbers-using-apostatesofislam-website-and-forget-my-username-and/or-password-every-other-week inhales freeminder) I was being sarcastic when I said Ayman won, though this is basically his thread. No one should have posted after his long first posts which I'm sure not even half the people read (who the crap would?)
And LMAO @ guest saying "coran".....WTF??!?!?!?!? rotfl rotfl bravo
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Peace guest,
I am sorry to have offended you... you did escalate the "offense" though by bringing in Satan,
and non-muslim, non-believer accusations, a trait very typical of the violent extremists...
All prophets came and challenged the status quo.
Jesus was hated by the organised rabbinate (and his messengership cut short), and so were the other prophets before him with the organised religions of their day, why, because humans have a tendency to grab for themselves what Allah has bestowed
them.
So with nowadays Ulamah, they do not want us to understand the Quran on our own, they want us to use them
as filters, so they can manipulate us and keep the message to themselves to accommodate their patrons (guess who).
The Ulamah in Sunni Islam have replaced the Ayatollah in Shia and Priests in Christiandom and Rabbis in Judaism, and
Shamans in Witchcraft.
If you are not getting this, then I am sorry, you are in deep trouble...931 They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides All?h (by
obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without
being ordered by All?h), and (they also took as their Lord) Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), while
they were commanded [in the Taur?t (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)) to
worship none but One Il?h (God - All?h) L? il?ha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but
He). Praise and glory be to Him, (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with
Him)."but you are still a Muslim, just that you are in great danger of losing your faith, because you are putting your trust
in people who do not deserve it.
I for one, never ever will follow any human, including Ayman that you accuse me of.
Allah has blessed me with some intellect, the ability to read arabic, english and french, and a logical and rational mind,
and I trust the events in my life (I am mature enough), and the signs I have witnessed have given me enough experience to appreciate and be careful and measured in what I am talking about. -
Peace,
I am sorry to have offended you... you did escalate the "offense" though by bringing in Satan,
and non-muslim, non-believer accusations, a trait very typical of the violent extremists...You do not call this satanic ?you do not follow one God, but many gods, the gods who manipulate your views...?
Please tell me who follow many gods?
Your accusation is non conditional, whereas my accusation is conditional. And there is a big difference between them, if you only knew.
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Peace to all, I see messages of people are as the title of the subjet very HOT.
As we have seen we have the pro's and con's about Ayman's definition of when fasting as per Quran alone. Indeed it is an answer.
My question is for the cons
When do you fast by using Quran alone?
Do you need an extra source to define it (fasting month)?
How long do you fast by Quran alone?This is not meant to offense any point of view, but to go further in the debate.
best regards
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Peace guest,
What is more conditional than sticking to Allah's Quran?
and in any event we, like any other beings in this universe are submitted to Allah unconditionally,
humans and jinns having been endowed with free will are required by Allah as a test, a condition
they agreed to upon their creation, in exchange for this endowment, to acknowledge this willingly
mentally, with their hearts and in their deeds.
To help them out, Allah sends Messengers with Messages.
The current Message to the whole of US is the Quran, no if's, no but's , no extra's, no less, no more...
What we need to know and do is all contained in the Quran, fulfilling Allah's will and the Prophet's work
is being guided by the Quran.
Allah takes it upon Himself to explain it to us through Signs in our environment, i.e. it is a work in progress
until the Day of Judgment.
And this is what the Ayat in my Signature clearly says.
Now stop mocking about guest, if you want to have Yousuf Alquardawy or Ali Khameini decide for you fine by me,
but do not try and impose it on me, oki? -
Peace Eid,
Yes, I did change my mind on code 19 after figuring out that it was all random, could not find any consistency, you pointed out some like flipping verses and did a lot of my own work looked into thoroughly was finding multiples everywhere which was the main reason I came back with Holiday, Pseudo, and Eid to dispel all that nonsense which you can easily search my user names and see that most of my posts were to refute the nineteen obsessed...
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3466;sa=showPosts
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3633;sa=showPosts
What you do Ayman when proven wrong instead of repenting and make your mistakes right, you deny clear evidence, attack the messengers that brought you the contradicting news about your hot moon; you cannot let go of your ego which is the same that infected nineteen cult. You belittle people, build a straw man/woman call them ignorant, say they babbling, lying, etc., all one has to do is search your posts and you even stoop low as in the above PM example not telling truth what actually transpired. Tell people about your PM to me and what you requested about my work/posts in the 19 forum.Yes you did good work on debunking Code 19 numerology. But after the PM you didn?t recant and correct what you posted in colors and great fanfare here on this sticky thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597669.msg190690#msg190690
Someone reading the above post and then finding no correction from you on the thread might be misguided.
I was proven wrong many times and I even proved myself wrong many times without anyone telling me. For example, right here on this thread, I have corrected my understanding of ?hajj? and there is a fierce debate (mild compared to this one) with Wakas who now holds my previous view.
It is the same thing here. I used to blindly believe the traditional timing exactly like you and then I believed in a fixed 30 day month as Anwar believes. I was defending that ?shahr? means 30 day month when a Sunni fellow pointed to me the fact that one of the meanings of ?shahr? is moon. Indeed, when I looked in the dictionary, I found the meaning of full-moon right there and this was the breakthrough. I didn?t tell the guy ?your #%&* moon? and dismissed it. This would be the ignorant ego-driven thing to do since the poor fellow didn?t travel back in time and conspire with the dictionary author against me. Knowledgeable people know not to dismiss something without researching. Letting the ego take over is a sign of ignorance. Same thing with the word ?ramadhan? and you making fun of the meaning of ?hot? or ?scorching? since if you took 1 minute to check a Classical Arabic dictionary, you would have seen that it is the PRIMARY meaning of the word. The god doesn?t choose his words haphazardly so you are in fact making fun of the god?s words.
As for saying that you are lying or saying irrelevant info, please look at your own words below
On this hot moon topic you are more lost, obsessed, and illogical than those infected with fitna of 7431.
Hopefully you'll explain to your children why people don't fast who live in cloudy weather or the blind.Your claim above is a demonstration of what I am talking about. Please copy and paste where I said ?people don't fast who live in cloudy weather or the blind?. What do you say about someone who consistently misrepresents what you said? You would say that he is either deliberately lying or has not understood what you said and is therefore giving irrelevant info. I would suggest that if you want to talk about what I said then just copy and paste it or put it in a quote.
Hopefully they'll see a picture of the globe that it is the same night in both Hemispheres and you won't call them ignorant or accuse them of babbling and lying when they ask you to explain why Qur'an was descended in a night not TWO Nights and TWO Ramadans.
- Ha.-Mim
2 By the manifest Book (this Qur'an) that makes things clear.
3 That We descended it (this Qur'an) down on a blessed night, that We are ever warning.
Please copy and paste where I accused you of lying or babbling when you said what you are saying above.
Do you know of any night where people suddenly stop killing each other and there is zero crime in the world? What is this night and how is this night peaceful then? You need to ponder on the signs of the god with the objective of learning, not with the objective of debunking me.
All best wishes to you and your children; may they grow up reading the Book, attain wisdom, and know the truth.
Same to you and your family and may the god have mercy on us all.
PS Here is something that I quickly put together and that I hope you would find beneficial
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599057.0
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
- Ha.-Mim
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Peace brother Wakas,
I think the obvious thing to do would be for those who disagree with the "full moon of scorching heat" etc theory, is to write a clear and detailed rebuttal, as an article. Ideally, with an alternative.
These things are not difficult to do, but it takes a special kind of person to do them. We shall see.Thank you for your wise and timely advice. One would think that writing an article proving the traditional timing according to the great reading would be a piece of cake. After all, the traditional timing has been instituted and unchallenged for almost 1400 years, so one would think that it must have a solid base in the great reading.
As it turns out, this is not the case. Even the staunchest defenders of the traditional timing admit that it is based on what some people arbitrarily decided to do or not to do a long time ago and cannot be reconstructed based on the great reading. It is an indisputable fact that if the sectarian timing got changed by the majority or one lost track of it, then like all falsehood it will be lost. So good luck writing an article, they are going to need it.
On the other hand, my article was surprisingly easy to write once I got in the right direction that it should be based 100% on the god?s signs and not on manmade calendars. It sends shivers down my spine when I think about how easy it was even after 1400 years of corruption. This great reading could not have come from anyone other than the god. This is very scary.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Progressive1993,
my 'understand/not understand/need clarification' lists
(Note for the reader these are only things I understand/dont understand from Ayman's article - they dont necessarily represent my own position).
First off, here are the things I understand- 'shahr Ramadan' = 'full moon of scorching heat'
- this full moon appears after the summer solstice
- the Quran was sent down during the night appearance of this full moon (laylatul qadr)
- the year is solar we should count 12 full moons in each of them, hence the calendar is luni-solar
- the crescents help us for the timing of the hajj, but also the fast, since it takes 10 days for the moon to go from its full moon phase into its crescent phase - the fasting and the hajj both take 10 days each.
- as exaplained above, the fasting is for 'ayyaman madoodatin', which means 'few days'. As per a hint from 7142, one can conclude that fasting is for 10 days.
- the count of the full moons in a year is 12. Although 13 might appear in some years, they shall not be counted, as per the command in 936.
Thank you for your excellent summary. You actually did a much better job than me in explaining in better and simpler terms.
- the restricted full-moons are cleverly picked from Summer to Autumn, since this is when many female animals are pregnant, and to kill one of them would mean to kill their potential offspring.
The timing has to do with protecting young animals as I explained to Quickduck here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg220546#msg220546
The key is about protecting young animals when human hunters pose the highest risk. Most animals give birth in late spring ? early summer. The mortality follows a bathtub curve. Right after they are born, the rate is high because of disease and birth defects and other predators. After a few weeks when they are old enough to venture away from their place of birth, human hunters become the highest risk until fall when they have grown enough to fend for themselves. So this would coincide with a hunting restriction period from early summer to early fall.
Another consideration is that humans who rely on hunting for sustenance can easily find other sources of food during the summer when fruits and vegetables and livestock is more plentiful.
In fact, there is a relation with ?ramadhan? and an inhumane method of hunting. The ancient Arabs used to hunt during the hottest time of the year by using dogs that are kept fresh and well hydrated and can then chase the prey until its feet burn in the heat of the desert and becomes an easy catch. This method called ?taramadh? is described in Classical Arabic dictionaries in one of the entries related to ?ramadhan?.
Things that I dont understand/need clarification for
- PERF 558 (a link with the contents of this documents and it's validity would be good)
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/PERF558.html
- a clear and thorough exaplanation of why 1712 and 105 make tell us that the year is solar and that the calendar is to be luni-solar.
105 talks about both the sun and the moon (sun is mentioned first) and then says they are used to know the number of years so this is an indication of a luni-solar system. 1712 further confirms that the year is primarily solar by saying that the daylight and night (both are a result of the sun and not the moon) are used to know the number of years.
Also, a good reason why we should count from solstice to solstice and the command thereof in the Quran. Why not from winter solstice to winter soltice, or from autumn equinox to the next, etc.? Why not count the days and have the lunar months are markers?
We can?t count the days and use lunar months as a marker because 1712 doesn?t mention the moon at all. Also, there is nothing inherent in a lunar month that marks the year. One can make a lunar calendar with a year consisting of 10, 11, 13, 14, or 1000 lunar months, so lunar months by themselves are not markers to begin with. In the traditional calendar, the months have been accumulating continuously since its inception. Recycling the names (which are meaningless anyway) every 12 lunar cycles is not counting 12. This is why the traditional calendar is dependent on month 1. The count hasn?t stopped since month 1. On the other hand, with the correct understanding of counting 12 in a 1712 solstice year, the 12 are independently counted and are not dependent on the previous 12.
The equinoxes cannot be used because using the criteria of daylight and night in 1712 the interval between two equinoxes is half a year, not a full year. The choice can only be between the two solstices, the summer or winter solstice. The marker ?shahr ramadhan? points to the summer solstice. The meaning of ?ramadh? is closely tied to the summer solstice. Here is an entry from Lisan Al-Arab
?The sand is scorching (?ramadh?), the wind is still, and the shadow is vertical?
Also, here is another entry relating the sun?s behavior around the summer solstice to ?ramadh?
I have noticed something very interesting from your article, which might seem insignificant at first, but with the right connection to the Bible, it has some significance
The first full-moon of the restricted full-moons (the full moon of scorching heat/"ramadhan" is for abstinence while the remaining three full moons are for the debate. This gives people three opportunities per year to meet up for the "7ajj"/debate."
(note for the reader ayman changed his definition of 'hajj' from 'debate' to 'feast'
Connection to Exodus 2314 "Three times a year you shall keep/observe a 'hag' to Me.Yes, this is a very interesting observation. Moreover, the biggest ?hag?/feast of the people of the book was Hag Sukkot, which takes place on the fourth full-moon after the summer solstice. In other words, it coincides precisely with the last inviolable full-moon
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukkot
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace Amouna,
I really liked your article and think it is the best example of how to observe abstinence as prescribed by the Qur'an that I have heard so far.
From what I understand, if it says to abstain two 'shahr', we would abstain from the first full moon and end on the next full moon. The only question I have is that if shahr = full moon, why does the Qur'an mention the word consecutive to describe the two full moons in 492 and 584. If the word consecutive wasn't there, we would get the same meaning.
If shahr = month, then the word consecutive would make a difference because it is possible to fast two months that aren't consecutive. I don't see any way you can fast two full moons that aren't consecutive. I am just wondering because it is hard for me to accept that the word contribute to the meaning of these verses.Thank you for your kind comments. The answer to your question is found by looking at the other occurrences where we are asked to do things according to the full-moon/?shahr?. For example, in the case of the waiting periods, the woman has to wait from the present time until the full-moons have passed. This makes the waiting period variable based on when the last full-moon occurred. The same goes for 92 where ?the roaming of the land? starts now until four full-moons have passed. On the other hand, in the case of 492 and 584, the abstinence is a fixed period between any two full-moons following one another. So unlike the other cases, one doesn?t have to start fasting now and wait for two full-moons to pass.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace,
The equinoxes cannot be used because using the criteria of daylight and night in 1712 the interval between two equinoxes is half a year, not a full year. The choice can only be between the two solstices, the summer or winter solstice. The marker ?shahr ramadhan? points to the summer solstice. The meaning of ?ramadh? is closely tied to the summer solstice. Here is an entry from Lisan Al-Arab
We know Ayman was ignorant of scientific facts/knowledge up until recently when we provided him with accurate scientific data disproving his Ramadan theory. Now, he does not get the benefit of doubt when it comes scientific facts related to his Ramadan theory. Any incorrect fact produced by him will be rightfully considered as premeditated act of misleading. Let's analyzed Ayman's above statement.
He says ?the interval between two equinoxes is half a year, not a full year.? He intentionally omitted the fact that the interval between two solstice is also half year. Picking one solstice is the same as picking one equinox e.g. March equinox. He is intentionally trying to mislead people. Please beware. There are numerous intentional error in Ayman's posts (today). I wonder why quickduck and others who claims to be independent minded people is not questioning the misleading errors. Because they do follow Ayman's tradition.
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Peace guest,
What you are saying is that Ayman makes mistakes, like all of us. We as his peers owe it to him to correct him, not to debunk him.
You want to debunk him. And your reasons are very clear, to keep your traditions intact, even if they are sending you head first into the hell-fire...
There is no ambiguity in the definition if you consider one solstice only, and the one is the summer solstice, and yes solstices are separated by 6 months as there is one summer solstice and one winter solstice.
The same goes with equinox, one spring equinox and one autumn equinox which are separated by six months. -
Peace Nabil,
There is no ambiguity in the definition if you consider one solstice only, and the one is the summer solstice, and yes solstices are separated by 6 months as there is one summer solstice and one winter solstice.
The same goes with equinox, one spring equinox and one autumn equinox which are separated by six months.In order for things to be clear, I learned from the great reading that we need to get past the convenient labels that we use and understand in terms of the nature of things. The night is equal to the day twice a year (the equinoxes), on the other hand the longest day/shortest night and longest night/shortest day happen once a year.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace,
He says ?the interval between two equinoxes is half a year, not a full year.? He intentionally omitted the fact that the interval between two solstice is also half year. Picking one solstice is the same as picking one equinox e.g. March equinox. He is intentionally trying to mislead people. Please beware. There are numerous intentional error in Ayman's posts (today). I wonder why quickduck and others who claims to be independent minded people is not questioning the misleading errors. Because they do follow Ayman's tradition.
1 - i was travelling so i couldn't check latest posts.
2 - i am not questioning any "misleading errors" because you it is YOU the one who can see them.
3- it is not about any two solstices, but about two SUMMER solstices. he explained this too clearly to sister Amouna.
4 - i am not following Ayman's tradition. I agree with him on his so far logical/flawless theory. As long as i see no "misleading errors" in it, i 'll go on agreeing.
5 - you still didn't answer my question , if you don't mind How old are you ? fftopic
salam,
P.S @ Amouna, welcome.