Whether God could create a God?
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Salaam truthseeker11
Thanks for your kind reply. I will try to learn from your understanding in yasha Allah.I agree that meaning of saad-laam-wa depends on context.
handshake
In 11114, 1778, 2458, 4102, 629 it clearly means a method of "turning towards" the God for remembrance and reflection on God's signs to seek guidance at certain time/period, and not "following God's commands". Following God's commands is CONTINUOUS for 24 HOURS A DAY, and not limited to certain times of the day.
Agreed following GOD's commands is continuous and same is for remembering him and seeking his guidance. Please look at the context of all the verses mentioned above and try to figure out what means here. I need some time to discuss them one by one.
If it is referring to time bound ritual then Allah knows that it cannot be practised at certain regions on the earth or on the space station orbiting earth multiple times a day.
Also in 3356 God and angels don't follow the Prophet closely.
No they are not following the prophet closely because word used is not but
which is form II verb meaning to support.Are Allah and malaika doing a timed ritual on the prophet? Please reflect on the context to see what support is referred to in this verse.
May the infinite Creator guide us to the truth.
Salaam -
Salaam Novice,
Thank you for your insightful reply. Likewise I would like to learn from your understanding if the infinite Creator wills.
Agreed following GOD's commands is continuous
handshake
and same is for remembering him and seeking his guidance. Please look at the context of all the verses mentioned above and try to figure out what means here. I need some time to discuss them one by one.
I will await your insight on those verses.
If it is referring to time bound ritual then Allah knows that it cannot be practised at certain regions on the earth or on the space station orbiting earth multiple times a day.
Agreed. I raised a similar point about north of Arctic Circle elsewhere on this forum in past.
I agree that "aqimi al-salat" is not a ritual just like taking a shower after exercising and then drinking a cup of green tea every morning is not a ritual. Why is it not possible that "aqimi al-salat" refers to a method of "turning towards" the infinite Creator periodically (not timed by solar system or a ritual) for remembrance and seeking guidance?
Why do 11114, 1778, 2458 clearly refer to certain times of the day when that is not possible in certain geographical locations? Could it be possible that certain verses in the current quranic text have been tampered with because they don't make any sense taking real world evidence into consideration (4153)?
Al-zikr being protected (159) does not necessarily refer to the current text but could refer to the original text that was sent down. The original text of al-zikr must be somewhere on Earth due to it being divinely protected/preserved and will be discovered one day.
No they are not following the prophet closely because word used is not but
which is form II verb meaning to support.handshake
I was just trying to expose that saad-laam-wa does not mean "behavior" or "ways" as Man of Faith claims using his secret innate letter meanings.
May the infinite Creator guide us to the truth.
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Truth,
You will not in the long run be able to prove against the truth concerning .
And 11114, 1778 do not particularly "clearly" give a timed ritual if one is honest to themselves. I did not have to spend much time to expose those passages.
2458 is more tricky but also that one is a hoax. It speaks of making sure that your family is aware of three important matters concerning life. I do not yet have a perfected translation of that passage, but I have enough to expose the traditional interpretation as bogus. The interpreters used the common multiple meanings dishonest technique in comprehending the passage.
Eventually, when I have unraveled more I will also be able to provide a full explanation of 2458 so that it has less points to comment on by people who lack understanding.
But my work is, if God permits, ongoing, so I will find more signs against you so you will not be able to testify against me for considerably long unless you are dishonest and stubborn and wish to cling unto falsely derived inferences.
Salateh refers to one's vision/perception/way of life, and I shall continue to struggle hard to show it. And as long as you are mindful of your view of life then you are on track. Being aware of your own actions and deeds is the essence of faith. After that you can know better what course of action to take.
The timed connection/prayer/ritual is part of a Pagan mindset and has nothing to do with the real Quran that shall emerge.
You need to comprehend that it has been a millennium of deception in terms of interpretation, but taking the easy way you take religious rituals you seem oblivious to this fact.
The connection to God is constant if you get near and you need no focused sessions. Prayers and meditation exist, but they are to clear your mind and to do as you would talk to anyone else and ask your rabb for something. The connection is constant. If you call for something to God then you use the Arabic word du'a which means to pray/call for.
Salaam
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Salaam Man of Faith,
While being in the physical illusion of separateness, the physical being needs to "aqimi al-salat" to turn towards the infinite Creator periodically for remembrance and to seek guidance and to constantly remind oneself that the separateness is just an illusion. Once the illusion of separateness is removed in higher state of existence and the physical, astral, and mental body has been shed, then there will no longer be any need for "aqimi al-salat".
May the infinite Creator guide us to the truth.
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And you blame me for conjecture...
The connection establishment is a gradual progress and depends on your determination to make changes in life. This salateh is just that, i.e. to be aware of how you lead your life, but it is not some ritual of sorts but plainly becoming self-aware.
There are other terms in Quran which speak of similar phenomena as what you speak of, but you clearly look for the wrong vocabulary. Yet it is affinity and realization in God which will bring you closer to your Rabb.
The Rabb will simply let you in, and it is a gradual process even if it goes faster for some people and slower for others, and some people (actually most) never get in.
But if you treat the Rabb separately from yourself and you look somewhere separately for that phenomenon, then you already affirm that you are far away.
If you can live in the spirit/consciousness of God then you can have nearness, it is a spiritual assimilation and you need no rituals or rites for it.
Salaam
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Peace Man Of Faith.
The "Unity" you are talking about sounds strange and "foggy"!
Reverencing GOD means validating His truth by promoting His teachings, and upholding His commands
Those who deliver God's messages, and who reverence Him alone, shall never fear anyone but God. God is the most efficient reckoner.
Qoran serves as a road map with clear guidance and laws - God has assured us that His scripture is straightforward except for allegorical verses (37), His teachings are easy (5417, 5422, 5432, 5440), perfect (111, 182, 2252), complete (6115), detailed (12111, 63, structured without any ambiguity (392 and have all that we need for salvation (651, 6153).
With these facts in mind, once we practice our freedom and choose God's verifiable guiding scripture as the only ultimate reference, there is not very much room left for disagreements.
We thus achieve the unity that God calls for by holding fast to His one consistent source. We unite with God and become His allies.
Satan,however, mostly hides under the exact catchy banners we adore and appreciate, "freedom of choice" - " unity" - "tolerance" - "best possible manners" - "kindness" - "patience" etc.... He thus misleads us, under these banners, into the thinking that after believing in God's verifiable word, we still have the option to disagree with each other about His straightforward teachings of Qoran.
This is his clever scheme for us to accommodate him and mix up his logic with God's. We then become united with Satan thinking we are on the right path!!!!
Tolerating ideas that oppose God's straightforward standards and systems in Qoran for the sake of unity is idol worship by definition.
No other entity but Satan would introduce us to that. We sink in his deception and without perceiving, we let go of the one unifying rope of God, while tolerating Satan instead.We trade away the real unity dictated by God and welcome a Satanic one
This is because you used to rejoice in false doctrines, on earth, and you used to promote them.
We have to make sure and be very careful
We will deal with the dividers.
They accept the Quran only partially.
By your Lord, we will question them all,
about everything they have done.But of course ,if you know better and have the truth,who can tell you any different?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Lena,
Please feel free to discard anything I say that doesn't make any sense or doesn't harmonize with your inner compass/conscience (3030), reasoning (611, 644 etc.), or real world evidence (4153, 1736).
But God is perfect. Can we ever reach an absolute state of perfection and have Gods qualities?
Yes, we are part of the infinite Creator and eventually when we reach the 8th density state of existence, the illusion of separateness will disappear and we all will merge back with the infinite Creator.
Density is the closest word in English that I can think of to express the state of existence. You can substitute it with "level" if "density" doesn't make sense.
The Creator is infinite (2115). The logical implication is that everything is part of the infinite Creator. If anything is not part of the Creator then the Creator would be finite because the Creator would end somewhere and that thing will begin somewhere. Since the Creator is infinite then everything is part of the infinite Creator.
2115 And to God belong the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is the face of God. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
All creation is physical manifestation of a tiny part of the infinite Intelligent Energy (the Infinite Creator). Energy and matter are inter convertible (E = m times c squared). Quantum physics proposes that all sub atomic particles are fundamentally formed from vibrations of strings of energy.
http//www.universetoday.com/114617/a-fun-way-of-understanding-emc2/
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCkGD76OEwA&feature=youtube_gdata_player
In our current 3rd density physical state of existence we are in an illusion of separateness from the infinite Creator. We will progressively go through higher density states of existence (the hereafter or heaven) until we reach the 8th density and merge back with the infinite Creator.
3rd density humans will eventually be transformed into 4th or higher density beings. Please reflect and meditate on the following verses
5660 We have predetermined death for you. Nothing can stop us
5661 From transforming your forms, and establishing you in what you do not know.This worldy life is nothing but an illusion/deception
5720 ............This worldly life is no more than an illusion/deceiving enjoyment.
Earth, air, water etc, are at 1st density state of existence; no consciousness, no free will.
Animals and plants are at 2nd density state of existence. They have consciousness but they don't have free will to choose between service to self (STS) or service to others (STO) path. Some animals such as cats and dogs are at a higher 2nd density state of existence, close to 3rd density.
Humans are at 3rd density state of existence. They have consciousness and free will to choose between STS or STO path.
Jinns (aliens, spirit guides, angels etc.) are at 4th or higher density states of existence. They have all the above plus their sub atomic particles are made of strings of energy vibrating at a different frequency than the lower densities so their "bodies" look different, with different physical properties. For example they can cloak themselves from the lower densities, have ability of telepathic communication, materialize as 3rd density being, exist as a collective, exist on planets that are uninhabitable to lower density entities etc. Their bodies become less and less dense and more and more light as the densities increase.
3rd density beings have 4 bodies - Physical body
- Emotional body
- Mental body
- Spiritual body
In 4th density, the physical body is shed and the other 3 remain. There is no physical suffering possible then, but only emotional, mental and spiritual suffering is possible.
In 5th density, the emotional body is also shed and only the other 2 remain.
In 6th density onwards, the mental body is also shed and only the spiritual body remains and they are "light beings".
In 7th density, preparation is made to merge back with the infinite Creator and they supervise lower density beings.
In 8th density, merging back with the infinite Creator occurs, termed as "return to your Lord" by al-quran.
228 How can you reject God when you were dead and He brought you to life? Then He makes you die, then He brings you to life, then to Him you return.
Some of these higher density entities have been given control by the infinite Creator over various matters and they are what al-quran refers to as "malaika"/controllers.
May the infinite Creator guide us to the truth.
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well, jedi
salaam all,
well, there's something wrong about my purposed based on this question.
OK, I will make it clear.If you're believe God is almighty, Whether God could create a God?
I think an ordinary man (or say let's think with a child's mind) will consider the results of the 2 thoughts below
- If could, there's will be 2 God(s) would be control this universe.
- If couldn't, certainly God is NOT almighty.
Can we answer this question clearly?
salaam.. )
Yes and the results will still be one God..
As + =
You will not think of such question, if you don't view God as a (finite) object or a being..
Infinity plus Infinity is still Infinity...
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Not being created is a feature of God that should point out the original question of this thread is self-contradicting. If God would create a god, by definition it wouldn't be God because of being created.
Can one break something unbreakable?
Can one see something invisible?Both are examples that contain a similar contradiction in the question itself - similar to the question "can God create a god".
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The Creator is infinite (2115). The logical implication is that everything is part of the infinite Creator. If anything is not part of the Creator then the Creator would be finite because the Creator would end somewhere and that thing will begin somewhere. Since the Creator is infinite then everything is part of the infinite Creator.
2115 And to God belong the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is the face of God. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
All creation is physical manifestation of a tiny part of the infinite Intelligent Energy (the Infinite Creator). Energy and matter are inter convertible (E = m times c squared). Quantum physics proposes that all sub atomic particles are fundamentally formed from vibrations of strings of energy.
Is God a physical entity? Can we perceive Him as infinite Intelligent Energy?
4211 Creator of the heavens and the earth. He has made for you from yourselves, mates, and among the cattle, mates; He multiplies you thereby. There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing.
1124 Nor is there to Him any equivalent.
When you call Him infinite Intelligent Energy You are perceiving/equalizing Him with something which is not in accordance with above verses.
My humble understanding is that God is a consciousness that we can feel but we cannot perceive Him like anything. The moment we call Him something it is no more God as per above verses.
Peace
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Jafar put up a very good point about infinity.
No matter how you put it there is just one grand consciousness everything exists within.
Salaam
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Give any perception to God? What are you telling?
We ought to follow the perception as relayed by prophets/knowledgeable/insightful men and women, unless we have something better ourselves.
That is what be attentive to salateh means.
Salaam
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Peace Novice,
Is God a physical entity?
Strawman fallacy.
I never called It "a physical entity". Infinite Intelligent Energy is not a physical entity. All physical entities are a manifestation of a tiny part of the Intelligent Infinity, but the Intelligent Infinity as a whole is not a physical entity.
Can we perceive Him as infinite Intelligent Energy?
4211 Creator of the heavens and the earth. He has made for you from yourselves, mates, and among the cattle, mates; He multiplies you thereby. There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing.
1124 Nor is there to Him any equivalent.
When you call Him infinite Intelligent Energy You are perceiving/equalizing Him with something which is not in accordance with above verses.
My humble understanding is that God is a consciousness that we can feel but we cannot perceive Him like anything. The moment we call Him something it is no more God as per above verses.
When you say "Him" you perceive the Intelligent Infinity like something.
When you say "consciousness" you perceive the Intelligent Infinity like something.
When you say "we can feel" you perceive the Intelligent Infinity like something.
When you say God you perceive the Intelligent Infinity like something.By your logic we cannot use any human word as an attribute of the Intelligent Infinity because it will be perceiving like something.
There is nothing else in existence that can be equalized with the combination of the 3 words "Infinite Intelligent Energy".
I didn't say "intelligent" alone; that would be equalizing with something.
I didn't say "energy" alone; that would be equalizing with something.
I didn't say "creator" alone; that would be equalizing with something.I called It the "Infinite Intelligent Energy", or the "Infinite Creator", an attribute just like "al-rahman" or "al-raheem".
You can call it the "Infinite Consciousness" but not "consciousness".
May the infinite Creator guide us to the truth.
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Peace truthseeker11
It is always a pleasure to talk to thinking minds. I appreciate your understanding.
Strawman fallacy.
I never called It "a physical entity". Infinite Intelligent Energy is not a physical entity. All physical entities are a manifestation of a tiny part of the Intelligent Infinity, but the Intelligent Infinity as a whole is not a physical entity.No strawman fallacy.
I asked a question "Is God a physical entity, not that you call Him a physical entity.When you say "Him" you perceive the Intelligent Infinity like something.
When you say "consciousness" you perceive the Intelligent Infinity like something.
When you say "we can feel" you perceive the Intelligent Infinity like something.
When you say God you perceive the Intelligent Infinity like something.By your logic we cannot use any human word as an attribute of the Intelligent Infinity because it will be perceiving like something.
When I said "Him" I used an English word for "HUA" which is used in Qur'an e.g. in 1121
Sahih International
Say, "He is Allah , OneWhen I say "consciousness" or "we can feel" I understand it as awareness and not an object.
When I said "God" I used an English word for as used in Qur'an
There is nothing else in existence that can be equalized with the combination of the 3 words "Infinite Intelligent Energy".
I respect your understanding.
I didn't say "intelligent" alone; that would be equalizing with something.
I didn't say "energy" alone; that would be equalizing with something.
I didn't say "creator" alone; that would be equalizing with something.I called It the "Infinite Intelligent Energy", or the "Infinite Creator", an attribute just like "al-rahman" or "al-raheem".
Al-Rahman and Al-Raheem are among the attributes of The Creator made known to us in Qur'an but "Infinite Intelligent Energy" is not.
I respect your understanding and gave my humble opinion and I pray to The Creator to help us understanding His book.
Peace.
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Hello RG Marshall,
welcome
Well .. Some questions can be put wrong, like how God is created, or how God created himself, or like your question, can God create a God. These questions are logically wrong because they assume that logic existed before God, and that of course is a wrong assumption. God created logic, He was there before logic and reason existed, so how could we discuss the existence of God based on something He made exist?
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Peace Novice,
It is always a pleasure to talk to thinking minds. I appreciate your understanding.
Likewise; it is always a pleasure having a discussion with you, and thank you for sharing your understandings.
No strawman fallacy.
I asked a question "Is God a physical entity, not that you call Him a physical entity.You quoted me and started your comment with that question and another question. The second question was relevant to my quote. Since both questions were asked together, the first question appeared a strawman fallacy. May I ask why you quoted me and then started questioning whether God is a physical entity when I didn't say that? It seemed to come out of nowhere!
When I said "Him" I used an English word for "HUA" which is used in Qur'an e.g. in 1121
Sahih International
Say, "He is Allah , OneHuwa in Arabic can mean both "he" and "it". The dictionary says it means "he" when referring to a male human. When you use "he" for the god, you ascribe a sex to the god; however, the god does not have a sex. By mistranslating "huwa" to "he", you turn a neutral message into a patriarchal and misogynistic message.
Because "huwa" can also mean "it", and since the god does not have a sex, when "huwa" is used for the god you should translate to "it" and not "he" to satisfy 4211 that you quoted against me.
When I say "consciousness" or "we can feel" I understand it as awareness and not an object.
My point is that "consciousness" can also be used for a human. You said "God is a consciousness". Human is also a "consciousness". So you are perceiving/equalizing the god to something. Instead of saying "God is a consciousness", you should have said "the god is an infinite consciousness" to satisfy 4211 that you quoted against me.
How can you be aware of the god? While in this temporary illusion of physical existence, you can only be aware of something that you can perceive with your senses. You cannot say "we can feel" for the god, because the god cannot be felt. "Feel" implies being aware of something or someone using your senses, but then you are perceiving/equalizing the god with something.
When I said "God" I used an English word for as used in Qur'an
You again mistranslated a quranic word. "Allah" as used in al-quran is a common noun and not a proper name. It is a combined form of "al ilah" which means "the god". When you mistranslate "allah" as "God" you are perceiving/equalizing "the god" to something (pagans also call their idol god). Instead of translating "allah" as "God", you should have properly translated it to "the god" to satisfy 4211 that you quoted against me.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16710.msg182966#msg182966
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16710.msg180723#msg180723
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605535.msg333628#msg333628
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600414.msg277101#msg277101Al-Rahman and Al-Raheem are among the attributes of The Creator made known to us in Qur'an but "Infinite Intelligent Energy" is not.
Can you kindly quote a verse that instructs us to remember, praise, or glorify the god using only quranic words? Perhaps I missed it. Will you stop someone from remembering, praising or glorifying the god in his/her own way just because that person was not using quranic words?
Infinite intelligent energy, infinite creator, intelligent infinity are some words that I use to remember, praise and glorify the god in my own way, along with quranic words such as al-raheem, al-khaliq, rabb etc.
I respect your understanding and gave my humble opinion and I pray to The Creator to help us understanding His book.
I respect your understanding as well and hope you take my humble opinions constructively rather than as criticism.
May the infinite creator guide us to the truth.
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Rabb is the "name" of GOD or at least personal address. No one calls upon GOD by Allah in Quran who is among righteous and knowledgeable people.
Allah is more of a collective, realm which people who are of affinity belong to. Hence the narration often speaks in plural as to say "We". It is not a mistake but that is because Allah is not a personal (singular) address for GOD.
Thus none of your examples are correct, the god or GOD, but I still use GOD because it may symbolize good and no one is good but GOD. I take it for what the word is meant to symbolize and not because people claim there are multiple gods. The one who chooses to hace the same affinity is good, thus GOD. It is not too bad instead of Allah, even if they are not synonymous. Perhaps AlRahman is better to mark GOD. The one who is, is, and why they are attributes and not proper nouns.
Allah, the word, is unspecifically saying the one who is that is. It has a long history, probably at least 4000 years. And lots of falsehood has emerged concerning it too. The AL prefix is attached to it thanks to the function of Arabic grammar, but it is supposed to be Elah without that prefix originally and has the same meaning except that Allah is stronger emphasis on "to be" Elah (to be which is). You can say it is double incentive.
But I understand that this is hard to accept for those who make GOD a clearly distinct separate image.
Salaam
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Peace Man of Faith,
Rabb is the "name" of GOD or at least personal address. No one calls upon GOD by Allah in Quran who is among righteous and knowledgeable people.
You are completely wrong
326 Say "O the god ............
5114 Jesus, son of Mary, said "O the god ............
1010 Their saying in it is "Be you glorified, O the god ...........
3946 Say "O the god ...........
Additionally, "rabb" is not a proper name; it is an attribute of the intelligent infinity, meaning "sustainer/caretaker/maintainer/developer".
My humble suggestion to you is to back up everything you say by evidence, instead of deliberately misleading others by deception and conjecture.
May the infinite creator guide us to the truth.
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Salaam truth,
No. It may look like I am wrong on a first glance, but there is a grammatical reason why the language is formed like that. I have studied the phenomenon of Allah for too long to not say something I am not knowledgeable about. If I was less confident I would not speak like I definitely know.
Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 26
Say "O Allah! Lord of Power (And Rule)
Source From traditional Quran translation
This interpretation is wrong.
The Allahem refers to the attribute reference of Malek that proceeds the word, by following "To Be Which It Be" + argument given, i.e. malek Al-Malek. This grammar form is very similar to how Jews/Children of Israel refer to the phenomenon Elohim and in this form it refers to Which Thereby Be as a collective possession.
Again I tell you, no righteous person in Quran would call upon GOD by Allah.
And Rabb is the personal address for GOD, regardless of being a name or not. I think I wrote "name" for that sake unless I missed it. Every righteous person says either Rabb or Ya Rabb in Quran when addressing GOD.
Allah can only be spoken of indirectly and passively since it is the consciousness of GOD like the realm one chooses to be part if they do, and it is counted in plural because those included are many, i.e. prophets, angels, righteous people etc.
Salaam