Whether God could create a God?
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Hey Good Logic, salaam.
As I understand it, what I am asking for is required by the forum rules - Rule 2 to be specific
2] Please note that this forum is primarily dedicated to God and the study and understanding of His Scripture (The Quran). Thus, mocking/ridiculing/insulting God and/or the Quran, and/or not being able to back-up claims against the Quran with specifics may result in deletion of such posts and/or removal of topic and/or disciplinary action being taken against the offending member.
I don't want action to be taken against anyone, but would like to see more discipline regarding the part of Rule 2 that says "or not being able to back-up claims against the Quran with specifics".
I agree this rule is overstepped often.
Currently, every interesting post gets buried in pages of other posts that are not relevant to Quranism, and are often lengthy promotions of the author's personal, original religion. This means that most people will not read most of the best posts. It is too much work to find them, and the process is unintersting to people looking for information on Quranic beliefs.
That is true enough.
Salaam
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Peace csmith,huruf.
We have to leave that job to those assigned to do the moderating.
As for Qoran, it defends itself.
I do not see an issue. trolls/abusers..etc get found out .
People choose what to read regardless, some even ignore "good logic" and common sense in some threads.I have found that everything can be useful and serves as a lesson ,both the good and the bad.
A little bit of patience is sometimes required, after all the truth always stands out.
Sorry guys, I do not see a problem, but I understand your concerns.
GOD bless.
Peace -
Salaam,
I think the problem with defining blasphemy is that it's different for each person.
For some Jesus is God (and/or son of God) is blasphemy for others Jesus is not God (and/or son of God) is blasphemy.
God has hands is blasphemy (proof = quran), God has no hands is blasphemy(proof = quran).Salaam,
Bender -
Hello csmith,
What I wrote in the previous post may be blasphemous in the typical Islam sectarian doctrine, but everything is a matter of the perspective. I, and people who are aware of what I say, know Rabb is always greater than us and thus this "divine" relationship is not blasphemous depending on how you see it. Of course the Islam sect is fanatical about the non-association with God so hence you perceive this as blasphemous obviously. Jesus (Jesua) was responded to in the same way by the Pharisee clerics, who had a distaste for his utterances. His utterances were considered blasphemous.
What I argue is that we have a share in Rabb but we are not Rabb, i.e. we can never encompass what Rabb does, but we can have a greater consciousness due to Rabb. The whole point in our ascending to a greater consciousness is to "come alive" and get out of a type of blindness that surrounds us due to the affection of Satan (I interpret it as the instinct). To "be alive" is 'Allah', which in wider definition means 'Who Is'. Rabb on the other hand is always Rabb, it is a personal address for God.
To become alive is by separating your mind from the Body's influence with its instinct and that would develop the mind and thus the soul, the Spirit would grow, while on the other hand if you give in to the Flesh (the Body) then this is what you get, basically, the Body will have a dampening effect on your Spirit and you will grow to become the Beast you are within. The choice is rather simple; Spirit or Body, obviously the wise one aims to grow their superior Spirit and be wary against the temptations of Satan. Now the thing which you consider blasphemous is that this Spirit was made in the image of Rabb, yet Rabb always encompasses more than you do since it is the actual Grand Consciousness involving everything in existence, conscious or unconscious. Rabb appears to be treated in singular and thus Rabb is a direct personal address (the usage of "Ya Rabb" is another sign). The word Rabb does have more relationship with the root for Abbu (father) than you may be aware of. Rabb could be perceived as meaning "Developer" in English. Another hint is that in Jewish elder linguistics, "Rabbi" is seen as "teacher" and that comes from the meaning of "developer" that I just mentioned.
I.e Rabb means Creator in English or more specifically Developer, this you can verify using an ancient Arabic lexicon (also called Classical Arabic lexicon) where the definition "develop" is mentioned. An important thing is that a Rabb sustains a person in order that it develops, i.e. feeds whether physically or abstractly. This is also its quite close relationship to Abbu, except that Abbu means morphologically "cause to exist", basically (as it might be hard to translate) which is very close of developing something albeit Abbu is a simpler syllable meaning it only means "generate" while Rabb means "develop". An 'ibn' (traditionally son) thus means "a generation" or more morphologically exact "is generated integrity", so if you say Jesua ibn Miryem you say in English "Jesus (who) is generated integrity (of) Miryem". This very special way of writing a female's name for the child would only be used if the child has no physical father since according to Genesis "man and woman clings unto each other and becomes one Body" and it is customary that the male part has the "family name" (his name) towards the outside world, and this is the reason why you only find the male name's in Quran and never their wives, except for Miryem since she was unmarried. In some cases, when the man married the female, he betook a new name in order to reduce the sensation of sexism and unfairness. Usually this was not a problem for an understanding female.
You claim that 'stronger' souls are able to prophesy the future. That seems to be something you have originated without reference to the Quran.
There are hints of people able to foresee future events also in Quran and the sectarian interpretation of it. They do it in Rabb but nonetheless they are able to prophesy. Jesus healing of the sick and blind is a sort of prophesying and he does affect the future as when he commences healing the other person is in a different state. The usual interpretation of Quran is almost useless, but you can find traces of truth in it.
You claim that we are reincarnated, and are aiming to be released from the cycle "much like is taught in Hinduism". Again, this is blatantly at odds with Quranic beliefs. We are not reincarnated at all.
It is at odds with the sectarian understanding of things. The point is that these ignorant people had no clue of what Gehennom or Heaven (asema) is; you cannot really deny that you will be reincarnated (reborn/resurrected) in either Hell or Heaven. The question is though what the Hell is Hell? And what is Heaven, some hedonistic very primitive location where people are pleasing their lusts all day long? Or is Heaven a place where you are ethereal and thus without body and has become a powerful being with greater influence on things? If you look at things in different light, you are already in Hell, a certain "valley" of Gehennom and unless you change yourself you will surely remain there too. The traditional Hell is just a fabrication by incompetent interpreters who could not really read what they read, in elder scriptures Hell did not even exist.
I didn't realise you were promoting this kind of thing when we spoke the other day, else I would have mentioned it then. Respectfully, this is a forum for Quranists. It's pointless if anyone can post anything, even if it is totally at odds with Islam, just because the user believes in it and decides to call it Islam.
I am adhering to the book you call Quran. It is just that I read it differently from you, but I do my sincere analysis and study of it. Just because the burden of proof is on me it means I have to constantly defend myself and tactically improve my ways of explaining things. I consider that I have improved greatly over the months despite that it is a "mission impossible" (nothing is impossible and it is a reference to the motion picture with the same name where they actually accomplish "mission impossible). That is also a definition of faith. Like Darth Vader would have said "I find your lack of faith disturbing" (jokingly).
I have analyzed many words to pieces just due to the above reason that I have to really present things in a ridiculously high level of evidence and clarity, because misled poor people buy the deception of the clerics and scholars rather than truly investigate whether commonly used definitions are right at all to begin with.
I know many people loathe seeing me here but there are also people who actually appreciate it. Several of which are rather silent about it.
This isn't aimed at you personally. I have been trying to push back on a number of users lately, and am honestly just trying to find the best way to reform the forum so that visitors can read discussions of Quranism without frequent interruptions that are literally irrelevant. Otherwise, we will simply educate less people, and gain less knowledge ourselves. I left this forum a few years ago, because it was far too noisy. There are bound to be other people who also left for the same reasons.
You mean you propagate sectarianism and you wish to prevent opposing views in traditional sectarian manner?
You might miss that Quran is my mainframe and it is from that scripture I gain my inspiration. You might see what I say as disinformation and not knowledge but there are people who would say otherwise.
I yet try to stay clear from typical sectarian discussions about such as rituals to a great extent just for the reason I let people have their little religion for themselves. I have been involved in some so-called "salat" threads but that has been for educational and information purposes as some people might like to hear more than one school of thought. In most cases the hardcore Muslims are not receptive to what I say so I have learned to keep them short. They must themselves learn to develop slowly away from what they are doing. Obsession (particularly due to religious conviction) at the expense at flexibility, logic and reason is a very fallible trait of the human Body species called 'Homo Sapiens'.
Maybe I am wrong, and the community does not share my feelings or concerns, but I have had conversations in private that confirm that I am not alone at least.
Yes I know I have opponents around the forum.
Please understand this is not personal.
Well it is personally directed towards me. Your opinion. It is your right to voice it though. And I am not offended.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Man of Faith - Your post is blasphemous. Allah is utterly independent of His creation. He has no need of the worlds. He does not depend on Creation. Allah existed absolutely before any of us existed at all. To suggest that we are somehow a part of God is utterly at odds with Islam.
- "at odds with Islam". Yes, at odds with Islam as in 'all the sects of the world religion Islam'. But isn't that the whole point of this forum?
- What do you mean blasphemous? Is there an approved understanding of the world and the scriptures?
We are not reincarnated at all.
As per your understanding of the quran, you mean.
I didn't realise you were promoting this kind of thing when we spoke the other day, else I would have mentioned it then. Respectfully, this is a forum for Quranists. It's pointless if anyone can post anything, even if it is totally at odds with Islam, just because the user believes in it and decides to call it Islam.
- MoF is basing all his stuff on the quran. How could anything by more "Quranistic" than that?
- No, it's not a forum for Quranists only. Everyone is invited. A "quran alone" approach to religion is however the common base and theme. Should we tell the atheists, sunnis, christians etc also to stop posting?
- "It's pointless if anyone can post anything". No, this site and forum is progressive. It is against the static and stagnant religious dogma. This forum is alive because of differences of opinion. What is actually pointless is to have a forum where no real discussions take place. Just admiring and correcting eachother can be left to traditional religion forums.
I have been trying to push back on a number of users lately, and am honestly just trying to find the best way to reform the forum so that visitors can read discussions of Quranism without frequent interruptions that are literally irrelevant.
Why not let the forum develop and live it's own life in an organic way?
Why try to reform the forum? That's like a hostile take-over.
Who decides what is relevant or not?
Is Quranism a new sect?Otherwise, we will simply educate less people, and gain less knowledge ourselves. I left this forum a few years ago, because it was far too noisy. There are bound to be other people who also left for the same reasons.
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No, to the contrary, we have greater chance to gain knowledge when various and even opposing ideas are mixed and confronted with eachother. Consensus is death.
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We are not here to educate people. Those who will benefit from this forum will find it and gain from it, but it is nobody's job to educate visitors. There is no division between an educating group and a visiting/learning group. This is not a sect or religion. We don't have clergy that is above commoners.
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Those who have left have made a choice, and for their own reasons. Topics and ideas must never be trimmed just to reduce the figure of people who leave the forum. This is not a party that thrives when the numbers go up. We are not a sect! Let people leave. It's ok.
Peace
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Why does God have to create another god when it can fill its own consciousness with shares of that Grand Consciousness? It is more efficient to use expand a Oneness than to go plural and the coordination is worse.
Why is a direct-drive engine best?
Why is it better to have a system bus in a computer than to reach each component separately?
Just change the system bus for Rabb and you basically have the functionality of Rabb. Every conscious person (node) is within the system bus.
If you contemplate enough you may realize why it is better that everything stays within Rabb rather than externally. Each one that grows into consciousness is a share of Rabb depending on their level of spiritual growth. The one who is not does not exist but is part of lifelessness and the "dead automation" also known as Satan.
There is no God to find when you will find Rabb from within yourself. Learn to know yourself and you will know your Rabb, because when you know your true self then you know the Flesh (the Body and the World) has to be separated from. And that is primarily from the instinctive drive and the crude animal you are within. Be better than that primate.
Be the son or daughter you were supposed to grow into. Let your seed grow and have the roots rooted not in this World. When your consciousness grows in any significant way then you are a "son or daughter of Rabb". Either that or you do not exist at all. Wake up, in fact a lot of you are slaves.
There is truth to be learned in when Jesus said "I am in the Father (Rabb) and the Father (Rabb) in me" and when Moses was told by Rabb "I am who am I". Those expressions are not lies. Rabb works symbiotically in you and everyone else at the same time. The question is whether you have any independent consciousness within Him or if you are a mindless slave. Once again a good saying is "Know your - self and you know the Rabb". Be someone that you can say "I AM".
Be safe
Amenuel -
They were rhetorical questions.
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A rhetorical question is intended to make the hearer/reader reflect.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Hello fye,
Obviously Rabb follows a system of logic too in the matter of efficiency. What is better than being the infrastructure itself and letting all the growing consciousnesses interconnect and be actual beings within in order to expand the (mental) activity. Our growth as persons is measured in how independent our consciousness is rather than a mindless slave to a system. Very instinctive persons who live for the World are as much as dead, lifeless. They do in fact not exist even if they delude themselves enough to think so but in fact they follow very predictable patterns. That deception is quite creepy actually. The more you lose yourself to the World the more you become "blind" and Satan (the instinct) takes over.
Certain people are worse than others. Just for being interested in reading my posts then perhaps your consciousness is above average. Otherwise you might had bought Islam wholesale, even Quranism which is a lightweight Islam.
Just like much else, religion is much a distraction and especially the rituals and rites may preoccupy the mind including all the time thinking whether you perform some mindless practices properly for a Rabb that does anyways not need it due to being an advanced phenomenon. The best you can do for Rabb is doing what you were made for, being useful to Rabb and the only way you can be useful is by expanding your mind within the infrastructure of Himself. You better exist or you do not exist at all. Boost your faith in yourself, boost your faith in 'Who Is' (Allah) and be one with Him, all integrated. Rabb is 100% Oneness. No separated god entity. Either you be Rabb or you be not at all. Jesus taught that, but they did not like it and most Jews went rampant against him and even created an anti-association sect called Islam which they claimed means submission while the root means healty/sound ( its derivative fundamental root means comfortable/peaceful/harmonious).
What makes a person sound is the ability to on a decent level utilize logic and reason because your consciousness works well. What makes it even higher is the independent thought to be able to process information on a way unbiased and own intelligence rather than falling for what others claim and see the mistake in their arguments. This person simply knows things because the mind is clearer.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Hi RG Marshall,
You pose an interesting question.
Let us first avoid the ambiguity of terms by defining "God" (with a capital G).
God is the creator of all things. God was not created. God is omniscient and omnipotent. God is not in need of anyone, or of anything.
I will divide the post into two parts
Logic
The answer to your question is given in the Quran 2122 and 1742.
We read elsewhere in the Quran that "Surely, God is, over all things, very capable." This statement is absolute, and occurs with no qualification, as such, we can infer that God is capable of creating another god.
However, the Quran is clear that, if other gods did exist, two matters are implicated 1) creation as we know it would only exist in dysfunctional aberration, and 2) any other hypothetical gods would work against god.
Grammar
There are two words for "if" in Classical Arabic, one is the conditional "if" ( ) and the other is the hypothetical "if" ( ).
The conditional "if" is used in cases where the speaker expects one of two outcomes to be the case, as "If you see John, speak to him." So, John will either be seen and spoken to, or he will not be seen, and therefore not spoken to.
The hypothetical "if" is used in cases where the speaker hypothesises something to be the case while knowing that it cannot be the case, as "If I were born 100 years ago, I would have witnessed many things." The speaker knows that what he is saying cannot be the case, but he only hypothesises.
This is why in 2122 and in 1742 God uses the hypothetical "if" ( ). God is capable of creating another god, but it will not happen for the two reasons given above.
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We read elsewhere in the Quran that "Surely, God is, over all things, very capable." This statement is absolute, and occurs with no qualification, as such, we can infer that God is capable of creating another god.
Hi,
God is not a creation. Every thing that He creates is per definition not God.
The question has to be like Can God create a god who is not created? And this is a stupid question. -
Salaam,
Yes. God could create a God and we who pass the test here will be like mini-gods when we leave this life. When you exist in the image of Allah then you are basically a god, even if that you in all are only one. It is you who thus should not exist but you exist in Allah and Allah exists in you in symbiosis. This is how Jesus was misunderstood and deified.
For clarification can be said though that in real there are no "gods" however but only one kind of consciousness that one can choose to be part of. 'The Borg' in Star Trek are a good example of how it works. But existing it is like being a god.
Salaam
Yes Allah has created Gods but not another Allah. Allah is not God. God is a creation, we achieve godhood when Allah allows us to use the attributes (commonly the 99 names) that he gave to humans. We use them everyday mostly to develop and create civilisation and of course to overpower other humans. But only the very few achieve so called godhood, but when these individuals achieve this status they behave at the optimum level a human being can achieve where the world is made to serve them however their appreciation of Allah is greater thus the individual no longer have common desire to rule like a God but rather enjoy lasting blissful peace in Allah unless Allah assigns the individual for specific task (eg the individual who Moses was supposed to learn from). Isa brought the 'good news' after the 10 commandments and corruptions that followed, but the concept is complicated to comprehend just like when the Quran states I am close to you than your jugular vein.
Just like any creation, a failed creation/human is send to the furnace for waste disposal (its not living there!)
Just my understanding.