What is the origin of gender segregation
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Nowadays, gender segregation is common in Muslim majority areas including the mosques.
I know the gender segregation in mosques originated from Caliph Umar's time, but I have a trouble on researching how Muslims started gender segregation practice that are widely practiced outside the mosque like purdah. How they are justified as 'Islamic' practice?This is the page I found that mentions this practice http//ibnbattuta.berkeley.edu/12westafrica.html
After all, he must have thought, he was a special visitor that should be pampered. And even more offensive were some different customs which Ibn Battuta thought were not appropriate for good Muslims. For example, he was used to the sexes being separated. On one occasion he entered in a qadi's (judge's) house to find a young and beautiful woman to greet him. She was the judge's friend! On another occasion Ibn Battuta called on a scholar and found the man's wife chatting with a strange man in the courtyard. Ibn Battuta expressed his disapproval and the man answered, "the association of women with men is agreeable to us and a part of good manners, to which no suspicion attaches. They are not like the women of your country."
I read the other pages about Ibn Battuta's journey. He comes from Morroco, where gender segregation was practiced while in Mali, gender mixing is norm. This shows that gender segregation was not practiced in all of the Muslim majority countries in 1300s.
Do you know any good source about the history of gender segregation or purdah?
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Salaam sister,
I do not know the origin behind the segregation, but it is due to that men and women who are not mahram are not allowed to socialize according to tradition. It is an exaggeration of the forced rule for a woman to cover herself up before foreign men.
Also in Christian tradition the churches were segregated and the women sat on the left side and men on the right. This is the reason why the buttons on clothes are on the left side on women and right side on men, to prevent the other gender from peeking in through the clothing.
The idea may be well-intended, but it is often very zealous and dogmatic, particularly if the women are taken into some basement of a temple because there is no other room. It is obvious it was not always so considered the design of them were not adapted to separate genders. Iranian mosques have often solved this by placing curtains to segregate men and women, and I know of few mosques which do not allow women in the main halls.
Here in Iran women sit in the back of the bus while men are in the front. During family dinners, often in orthodox families, the men and women eat in different rooms.
It is all to prevent sexual arousal and women get very stressed if a man risks to see her body.
The idea of segregation is probably older than Quran and the religion called Islam however and seems to have been common in Judaism and all those who deem chastity to be important in their faith.
However, the zealous and dogmatic rule of forced covering of the hair and body is varying in its occurrences. There seems to be Biblical accounts (if you accept its historical account) that women did not always cover their hair, since it is implied that women used their hair for a purpose or that the person knew the hair and wrote about it in the text.
I know this did not really answer your questions, but it was nevertheless some input. There was never any implicit divine rule for neither segregation nor total covering of the body for neither of the genders. It all says you should practice chastity and modesty (of mind).
Salaam
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It goes further to Judaism..
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_separation_in_Judaism
Gender separation is part of "Halakha" (or in Arabic Halaqah)
It's possible that the 'gender separation' goes much further back.. perhaps during Zoroastrianism or Sumerians/Akkadian era..
But I have no evidence to support that..Except... from the language..
Yes the language..
Only those who are descendant of "Indo European" people have "Feminime" and "Masculine" (Gender Grammar) in their language..
Including but not limited to Sanskrit, Dravidan, Ancient Farsi,Hebrew,Arabic, Aramaic, Greek, Latin, French, Germans, Russian etc..Such "Gender based Grammar" doesn't exist in far eastern language.. such as Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Thais, Malay/Indonesian, Vietnamese, Fiji, Maori, Hawaiian and also Mongolian / Turkic language.. (As Turkic people originated from the east).
This also reflected on their tradition/culture/belief/religion..
The eastern tradition is more relaxed on 'gender restriction'.. compared to their westerner / indo-european counterpart.. -
Misogyny is timeless. All it takes is one misogynist male in power to establish it.
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I keep hearing from scientists that gender segregation was quite a thing among cavemen. In fact the idea of wife working at home and man going out to work started with them.
While men hunted, women stayed in the cave looking after children. It has something to do with "protection".Point to note There is no evidence of this.
But I do see that gender segregation existed in Egyptian kingdom of Pharaohs.
Some people nowadays seem to think that ancient Egyptian women lived in an almost ideal world of equality. This was not the case. They may have had more rights and independence than women in other ancient societies, but they were not treated as equals by men. Throughout history they had little direct influence on public affairs. Their choice of profession was limited mostly to that of mistress of the house, though some became priestesses, others entertainers and a small handful even came to rule the country, be it as regent or as pharaoh. But the life of the ordinary ancient Egyptian woman was restricted to doing household chores, though one should not forget that the options the average ancient Egyptian man had were barely more numerous.http//www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/people/couples.htm
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Sonny,
So you think that men are superior to women, no matter what?
I agree about negative aspects of feminism and that men and women bodies and instinctive thinking is different though, but the both sexes excel at different tasks.
I have never had any problems with women offering me sex, and I think it is more common that men does that however. It is not particularly hard to say no if you are pious.
Salaam
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So you think that men are superior to women, no matter what?
It depends what you mean with 'superior'?
I have never had any problems with women offering me sex, and I think it is more common that men does that however. It is not particularly hard to say no if you are pious.
Well it was hard to say no sometimes, especially to my math teacher in high school ;D
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Sonny,
You said men's world. That must imply on some sort of superiority of men?
Math teacher? Was among the weirdest I have heard except from pervert sex tales on the Internet.
Salaam
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Sonny,
You said men's world. That must imply on some sort of superiority of men?
Yes it is men's world. There was a study made which shows that even women rather see male as leader than a woman.
Math teacher? Was among the weirdest I have heard except from pervert sex tales on the Internet.
Sounds crazy but this really happend to me.
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Interesting question, of course it stems from the male ego and insecurity of some men but it is clearly stronger in some cultures than others.
It got me thinking why in some cultures gender segregation was never a big deal such us in Slavic cultures (Central, Eastern Europe) - and no, even the Christianity never reinforced that, while in others it was a big deal. My explanations, going beyond the religions that were practiced in such places are the following
- Climate - well in hot climate men get aroused quicker, so called 'purdah' was to 'protect' women from hassle. I don't want to generalize but honestly from personal experience verbal harassment of women, or let's say 'macho culture' in hot countries is much more common than in more moderate or colder Nordic climate.
- Tribal culture. My friend who was actually married to Arab Muslim guy brought this insight to me. She said that maybe there is this thing with the famous hospitability Arab culture, where guests are not refused anything while at home of the friend. Maybe purdah was established there to 'protect' the wife(s) from jealous eye of the male guest?
And I really agree with the statement of ibn Battutas interlocutor "the association of women with men is agreeable to us and a part of good manners, to which no suspicion attaches. They are not like the women of your country."
It again confirms that the separation of genders stems directly from males inability to look at woman as a human being, without fleshy desires, sick jealousy and fear that her vagina will be desacrated at any possible opportunity. To me, the separation of genders in the society is quite a good indicator of lack of social and cultural development.Yes it is men's world. There was a study made which shows that even women rather see male as leader than a woman.
Sounds crazy but this really happend to me.
I think Sonny that you don't quite understand the intricacies of powers and influence that both genders have on one another in different spheres of life. But if this makes you feel good about yourself as a man and flatters your ego, then I am in no way to stop you believing in the 'men's world. Amusing!
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To me, the separation of genders in the society is quite a good indicator of lack of social and cultural development.
In western countries more than half of all marriages ends with divorce after just few years, for me this is lack of social and cultural development. Ups, they have no culture, sorry, I almost forgot
I think Sonny that you don't quite understand the intricacies of powers and influence that both genders have on one another in different spheres of life. But if this makes you feel good about yourself as a man and flatters your ego, then I am in no way to stop you believing in the 'men's world. Amusing!
Your climate theory is much more amusing. Where did you get that from? ;D
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There could be various factors like climate, population etc..
The more densely populated, the more safe is for the women and there is less gender segregation in those societies.
Deserts do belong to sparsely populated areas, so the practice of gender segregation in order to protect the women folk from evil eyes of men or the opposite in some cases )
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I'm for gender segregation, hate me if you wish. Women at my previous job were offering me sex, 'nuff said.
Gender equality is BS, this is men's world, always was and always will be, those men who don't agree have been feminized.
Can't you complain to HR about it? In US workplaces, the sexual harassment case is so strict that men are told to not even look at women.
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In western countries more than half of all marriages ends with divorce after just few years, for me this is lack of social and cultural development. Ups, they have no culture, sorry, I almost forgot D
It seems that divorce is the worst thing that can happen in the society right? worst that sexual and mental abuse of wife that has no way out of it because the great society does not approve of it and even 'honor killings' is some self-righteous societies?
an yes, You are in a sense right, western societies have NO TRIBAL CULTURE. But if you were never able to grasp other dimensions of western culture then probably you have never really see it from behind the veil of your self righteous attitude.
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Salaam roshan,
I think the arousal is more an effect of that the men see women in minimalistic clothing than the climate. Moderate amounts of sunlight makes humans happier and it is likely to affect both genders equally. Sun tan may make a female look healthier and thus more attractive if she reveals her skin.
I live in Iran and we do not really have any difference depending on the weather.
But gender segregation I do not agree with. If men have a lock on their mind it does not matter if they are with a bunch of women with "bad hijab" as they say here. Of course it is disturbing to be a man and beastly instincts cause involuntary arousal, but it is also good to practice on modesty to be able to control it.
I agree that women as well as men should mind what kind of clothes they wear and why they wear them. Many people wish to be chaste and refrain from their beastly selves. But there is also a limitation on how this should be. To force covering of every piece of the body is to take it too far. But if a person wills to cover his or her hair then that is only good.
In that regard I defend chastity through covering of a body, but I still think it is individual and it is not unchaste to have simply moderate clothes (not designed to prettify or be sexy) while still showing the hair and limited parts of the body such as arms and lower part legs. That is my idea though. In worst case I may show my distaste by looking down in the floor if someone is too extreme and is not intended as I force change but more to defend my own mind.
Salaam
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It got me thinking why in some cultures gender segregation was never a big deal such us in Slavic cultures (Central, Eastern Europe) - and no, even the Christianity never reinforced that, while in others it was a big deal.
From my own experience, I agree that there is not much gender segregation in Slavic cultures. But there is quite alot of sexism and "machoism".
- Climate - well in hot climate men get aroused quicker, so called 'purdah' was to 'protect' women from hassle. I don't want to generalize but honestly from personal experience verbal harassment of women, or let's say 'macho culture' in hot countries is much more common than in more moderate or colder Nordic climate.
I find this odd. I think there are too many variables here. I don't think we can jump to the conclusion that it is the climate that makes men more arousable and therefore explain the number of verbal harassment. We also see that hotter countries are poorer. Is it the climate making people poor? Why are they poorer in general? Lousy discipline, working moral, creativity, independent thinking???
I think men get aroused equally much all over the world, and so do women. However, men might express themselves differently. I also believe climate is correlated to temper, so in some way perhaps "sexual expression" could be linked to climate. But there are likely many more variables at play here.
- Tribal culture. My friend who was actually married to Arab Muslim guy brought this insight to me. She said that maybe there is this thing with the famous hospitability Arab culture, where guests are not refused anything while at home of the friend. Maybe purdah was established there to 'protect' the wife(s) from jealous eye of the male guest?
Yes, this could be a reason.
It again confirms that the separation of genders stems directly from males inability to look at woman as a human being, without fleshy desires, sick jealousy and fear that her vagina will be desacrated at any possible opportunity. To me, the separation of genders in the society is quite a good indicator of lack of social and cultural development.
I would not say lack of cultural development, or social development. Yes, some aspects of he social and cultural picture may be questionable, but other aspects of the culture may be very well developed and admirable.
I totally agree that the male ego and its insecurity in combination with the traditional male "societal dominance" is the main cause of the gender segregation. Add to that the human being's passion for following tradition blindly and avoid thinking.
I think Sonny that you don't quite understand the intricacies of powers and influence that both genders have on one another in different spheres of life.
Indeed. It's intricate, and not so black and white that some may think.
Peace -
There could be various factors like climate, population etc..
The more densely populated, the more safe is for the women and there is less gender segregation in those societies.
Deserts do belong to sparsely populated areas, so the practice of gender segregation in order to protect the women folk from evil eyes of men or the opposite in some cases
I don't think there is much segregation in places like canada, scandinavia, siberia etc which are rather sparsely populated. I don't think this theory holds.
Peace
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Salaam MAn of Faith,
I agree with you praising chastity and moderation. But to me, it's more than that and it's more embedded in the male attitudes as such. I used to live in Scotland and, although that many women dress more scantily there, I wouldn't notice many men harassing verbally or disturbing women on the streets. Men over there are actually quite shy. But when I travelled to so called muslim countries, I could notice that men are more ready to indiscriminately pick up on women on the streets that were seen as not wearing halal enough. You also mention that in Iran men are judgemental towards what they see as 'bad hijab' which is really bad, because it goes again Quran telling men to FIRST guard their look.
And what I mean by saying that gender separation is the indicator of lack of social and cultural development means just that men not being able to control their own urges and desires and trying to push the whole burden of restraining it on women - by locking them down and judging their dress before judging man's own desires.
As for the chaste clothing - I think it is largely cultural thing again and I exercise flexibility in this regards depending on the country where I live/travel. But in general, I think that it is quite sad that women are often subjected to the male perception of what is desirable and 'right', be it by wearing hijabs, niqabs or whatever to prove how 'chaste' they are just as much as women in other countries showing too much flesh to prove how attractive they are. They are both just the two sides of the same coin.
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Salaam MAn of Faith,
I agree with you praising chastity and moderation. But to me, it's more than that and it's more embedded in the male attitudes as such. I used to live in Scotland and, although that many women dress more scantily there, I wouldn't notice many men harassing verbally or disturbing women on the streets. Men over there are actually quite shy. But when I travelled to so called muslim countries, I could notice that men are more ready to indiscriminately pick up on women on the streets that were seen as not wearing halal enough. You also mention that in Iran men are judgemental towards what they see as 'bad hijab' which is really bad, because it goes again Quran telling men to FIRST guard their look.
And what I mean by saying that gender separation is the indicator of lack of social and cultural development means just that men not being able to control their own urges and desires and trying to push the whole burden of restraining it on women - by locking them down and judging their dress before judging man's own desires.
As for the chaste clothing - I think it is largely cultural thing again and I exercise flexibility in this regards depending on the country where I live/travel. But in general, I think that it is quite sad that women are often subjected to the male perception of what is desirable and 'right', be it by wearing hijabs, niqabs or whatever to prove how 'chaste' they are just as much as women in other countries showing too much flesh to prove how attractive they are. They are both just the two sides of the same coin.
I agree completely.