What is the origin of gender segregation

reel

Perhaps when Muslims came to Egypt, they were influenced by these segregation customs. This also applies to Byzantine society

I see that the answer to the question is hardest to find. But I still came across an interesting paper according to which it was not religion, but agriculture which began the gender based division of labor followed by the segregation.

This paper seeks to better understand the historical origins of current differences in norms and beliefs about the appropriate role of women in society. We test the hypothesis that traditional agricultural practices influenced the historical gender division of labor and the evolution and persistence of gender norms. We find that, consistent with existing hypotheses, the descendants of societies that traditionally practiced plough agriculture, today have lower rates of female participation in the workplace, in politics, and in entrepreneurial activities, as well as a greater prevalence of attitudes favoring gender inequality. We identify the causal impact of traditional plough use by exploiting variation in the historical geo-climatic suitability of the environment for growing crops that differentially benefited from the adoption of the plough. Our IV estimates, based on this variation, support the findings from OLS. To isolate the importance of cultural transmission as a mechanism, we examine female labor force participation of second-generation immigrants living within the US.http//freakonomics.com/2011/06/23/did-gender-inequility-start-with-the-plow/

seekingthetruth

Hello,

Generally, sexism and gender segregation was found in most of the ancient nations and religions. I've found many repulsive texts against women in Islam and are derived from other religions such as Zoroastrian and Judaism. For me, i think it results from the social culture and standards rather than religions or women and men rule in life, and the social culture & standards are mainly affected by politics, leaders and ideology.

Although there are some queens in islamic period e.g. Arwa bint Mohammed the queen of Yemen (1138 - 1085 A.D.) people tend to not mention that for clearly political reason.

In my country, 30 years ago women were not considered as only a flesh for desires as what happening now. Nowadays, even women with veils may face harassment, while before 30 years ago women used to wear what they want and they did not even think about facing harassment or standardization. The reason of this change was the new politics and ideology " Islamic caliphate". Nowadays, although women have an important role out side the house and it is familiar to see a woman who supports a family while the man of the family has no job, but she still has the same responsibilities towards her home and family without any participation form the man. Also, they are socially inferior.

The idea of a man work and a woman stay at home to take care of children and house is not the merely reason. In my country, some rural tribes in some areas, the woman is the one who work in agriculture, take care of children and house and with inferior social status. While the man literally has fewer responsibilities with more privileges.

The women use do be the cause of most of the sins, since the imaginary story of Adam & Eve. Forcing women to wear veils, separate them and segregate them make "even women feel" like they are just sinful and inferior to men.

But, i have a question , why there are no female prophets?

Regards,

huruf

Maryam is a prophet and there may have been more women prophets although not mentionned in the Qur'an, because not all prophets are mentionned in the Qur'an, just those of the tradition common amonst the people among which lived Muhammad.

The reason for there being fewer women is clear. Prophets come also to set example with their behaviour. Who needs more good examples, those who abuse the other sex or the ones who do not? Obviously the former. Prophets in the Qur'an are examples of self-sacrifice and humility. Women in general needed and need I think not so many examples of that but, males are more eaasily misled into pride becuse they have no burdens of reproduction, so they tend to feel freer to act arrogantly. Of course not to say that all men are like that, but statistically in societies where force and raw ppower gets more respect than meekness and self-sacrifice, are more exposed to the temptation of abusing their advantages.

However, to show an exemplary woman in the field where no male exampple can be valid, Maryam is a prophet, although many crige at the mere thought of it. However in history as presently many muslims, common muslims also think so. Not that it matters what people think but what God disposes matters, but only to say that it is not so universal de denyal of woman prophet as some would like us to think. Only those who deny it, as usual, are the nosier.

Salaam

seekingthetruth

Maryam is a prophet and there may have been more women prophets although not mentionned in the Qur'an, because not all prophets are mentionned in the Qur'an, just those of the tradition common amonst the people among which lived Muhammad.

The reason for there being fewer women is clear. Prophets come also to set example with their behaviour. Who needs more good examples, those who abuse the other sex or the ones who do not? Obviously the former. Prophets in the Qur'an are examples of self-sacrifice and humility. Women in general needed and need I think not so many examples of that but, males are more eaasily misled into pride becuse they have no burdens of reproduction, so they tend to feel freer to act arrogantly. Of course not to say that all men are like that, but statistically in societies where force and raw ppower gets more respect than meekness and self-sacrifice, are more exposed to the temptation of abusing their advantages.

However, to show an exemplary woman in the field where no male exampple can be valid, Maryam is a prophet, although many crige at the mere thought of it. However in history as presently many muslims, common muslims also think so. Not that it matters what people think but what God disposes matters, but only to say that it is not so universal de denyal of woman prophet as some would like us to think. Only those who deny it, as usual, are the nosier.

Salaam

Hello,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, but she is not mentioned in quran as a prophet clearly, i mean she is called "siddiqa" which means truthful or honest, but not "nabi or rasool". I know by definition that she might be a prophet, but what is the reason for not mentioned any of female prophets "if there are any" and even when a female that she might be a prophet mentioned, she was not described as a prophet. In this verse you can see it clearly

The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.

Surat Al-Ma'ida, 75.

She is not described as a prophet, in spite of the description of the Messiah as a prophet. He is also added to other prophets, while she is just described as "Siddiqa".

Mention of male prophets only in Quran may increases their ego and pride of men, as they feel that only males have abilities to lead and more privileges. If we consider that only male prophets were mentioned to set examples for men as they need it more than women, it is gonna be a kind of gender discrimination. Either the 2 sexes are not equal, or the Quran was sent for specific people who has these characteristics "e.g. Arabs". Maybe there is another reason, who knows.

Regards

huruf

It is not said literally in that aya, but she is counted amongst the prophets in sura al Anbiya' where one rophet after the other are extolled riminding us of them and their deeds, and there comes Maryam and God breathed into her from His spirit, and her son is mentioned by her name no the other way around but she is not a prophet because malehood forbids it.

No mother of any prophet is mentionned and no prophet is mentionned as son of her mother or father for that mater, but 3isa is. And she is known by herself, named by herself in the Qur'an, not as mother of anybody.

They both were a proophetic team. Both are an aya for the worlds.

And the remark about Maryam being siddiqa and therefore not a prophet I have herad that one and I must say I do find it funny does that mean that 3isa was not siddiq, that He was a lier? So if someone is called truthful he cannot be a Prophet? For God's sake. Haw far in nonsense can we get, I suppose as far as male lack of self esteem can, since it seems tht if all prophets are not male their stock in God's patnership business dips.

As I already stated, very fortunately for humankind, that view of male monopoly is not held by all males, far from that. But those who hold it would like everybody to believe so, and to make us feel that something is being stealed from them if single woman happens to be a prophet.

May God rotects us from omlexed men sensibilities.

Salaam

Man_of_Faith

Salaam,

The Biblical Scriptures mention several women as prophets. By the way, I consider Maryam to be a prophet despite it not being explicitly told in Quran. She had great insight and GOD communicated with her and she knew what others did not know.

The word prophet in Arabic nabi means "enlightened one/one with insight/substance" and the term is more general than people claim. When one reaches far enough on the path they automatically become nabi which can be said to have knowledge and wisdom. Maryam's abstention from the world was what gave her the spiritual ascension. Same with Zachariah, he also was very pious.

Prophet (nabi) does not mean you have to come with a scripture or revelation. Several prophets mentioned in Quran did not write or reveal any particular decree or lore. Merely being inside the realm of GOD marks that you are a prophet and share the depository of knowledge and wisdom. An important parameter is that you have to forsake your instincts/beast body and learn to control it to reach the spiritual you.

I know that many women are upset over the apparent lack of women in the lore and you have both my empathy and sympathy. I would say it is because women in many cases have been prevented by patriarchy. Many men would never have heeded a female prophet. There were probably several prophetesses, but they could not succeed as messengers due to misogyny. Now in 2015 I think that the world would be ready for a prophetess though also to be a beacon.

Salaam

seekingthetruth

Hello,

It is not said literally in that aya, but she is counted amongst the prophets in sura al Anbiya' where one rophet after the other are extolled riminding us of them and their deeds, and there comes Maryam and God breathed into her from His spirit, and her son is mentioned by her name no the other way around but she is not a prophet because malehood forbids it.

No mother of any prophet is mentionned and no prophet is mentionned as son of her mother or father for that mater, but 3isa is. And she is known by herself, named by herself in the Qur'an, not as mother of anybody.

They both were a proophetic team. Both are an aya for the worlds.

And the remark about Maryam being siddiqa and therefore not a prophet I have herad that one and I must say I do find it funny does that mean that 3isa was not siddiq, that He was a lier? So if someone is called truthful he cannot be a Prophet? For God's sake. Haw far in nonsense can we get, I suppose as far as male lack of self esteem can, since it seems tht if all prophets are not male their stock in God's patnership business dips.

As I already stated, very fortunately for humankind, that view of male monopoly is not held by all males, far from that. But those who hold it would like everybody to believe so, and to make us feel that something is being stealed from them if single woman happens to be a prophet.

May God rotects us from omlexed men sensibilities.

Salaam

I respect your opinion but i think that She is not mentioned in Surat Al-Anbya' clearly because she is not considered a prophet as the other prophets. I think the word prophet is more comprehensive than truthful. Beside the fact that she is not described as a nabiia in Quran, all these reasons make me think that she can't be a prophetess.

I agree with you about your opinion on male domination and its effects, and Amen to that )

Salaam,

The Biblical Scriptures mention several women as prophets. By the way, I consider Maryam to be a prophet despite it not being explicitly told in Quran. She had great insight and GOD communicated with her and she knew what others did not know.

The word prophet in Arabic nabi means "enlightened one/one with insight/substance" and the term is more general than people claim. When one reaches far enough on the path they automatically become nabi which can be said to have knowledge and wisdom. Maryam's abstention from the world was what gave her the spiritual ascension. Same with Zachariah, he also was very pious.

Prophet (nabi) does not mean you have to come with a scripture or revelation. Several prophets mentioned in Quran did not write or reveal any particular decree or lore. Merely being inside the realm of GOD marks that you are a prophet and share the depository of knowledge and wisdom. An important parameter is that you have to forsake your instincts/beast body and learn to control it to reach the spiritual you.

I know that many women are upset over the apparent lack of women in the lore and you have both my empathy and sympathy. I would say it is because women in many cases have been prevented by patriarchy. Many men would never have heeded a female prophet. There were probably several prophetesses, but they could not succeed as messengers due to misogyny. Now in 2015 I think that the world would be ready for a prophetess though also to be a beacon.

Salaam

Thank you for these information. So, why female prophets are not mentioned in Quran as in Bible?
I do not think Maryam is a prophetess as i said to huruf above, if she is prophetess, that should be written clearly as the other prophets.

Regarding the word "nabi", i agree with you to some extent, yes not all of the prophets had scriptures or revelations, but your description of "nabi" should be applied to "rasool" or messenger and not "nabi", because in Quran it is said that Muhammad is the latest prophet and the one who has concluded the religion

" "
Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things.
Surat Al-Ahzab, 40.

I choosed this translation as the word "" means the latest sealer, so there is no any prophet after him. Therefore, we may still have messengers "e.g. scholars".

I guess that your point of many men would never have heeded a female prophet, may be it is the reason for not any presence or mention of female prophets in Quran.Thank you for this idea.

Sure it would be ready, but i guess in some countries only, let's hope for the best.

Regards,

Man_of_Faith

Salaam seekingthetruth,

No, surely rasuul is more like a beacon than messenger. A relay, but it does not need to be speaking of concrete information but to be a role model. Messenger is a bit ambiguous.

Nabi is such as that I said and they do not need to write or compose scriptures. Quran does not have to clearly write out that someone is a nabi. It is a general term for insight into Allah. If you know the dynamics of Allah then you are a nabi, no matter if people deny you or not. It is up to each person to accept you though, the nabi could care less and they do not turn violent or initiate wars to convince people (see traditional Islam).

Salaam

Man_of_Faith

And no, khatam does not mean seal, no matter how many scholars say it.

Salaam

huruf

Believe whatever you will about Maryam. She will not be less of a prophet because of your believe and it is not she or I or anybody who believe in her as a prophet who will suffer a loss, but those who do not believe who lose.

You must be damned sure that she is not a prophet in order to disqualigy her as such, because the Qur'an orders us to believe in God's prohets. She certainly gets more praise and place in the Qur'an as many other "admitted prophets", and not all of them them are called prophets in the Qur'an. But again, if you gain nothing from Maryam, too bd for you. There is a lot, an awful lot to be gained from her prophatship by the believers, not her loss but your loss. Just the same as with any other prophet. If you do not believe in Muhammad or Musa or Yusuph, it is your loss. not anybody else's loss, and I wonder whether when we disbelieve a prophet we are not in fact disbelieving the whole lot of them, because, as the Qur'an says, they are all one. If because she is a woman we do not believe in her as a prophet, then all the prophets are demeaned.

She carried out her mission with praise from God, she was commanded by God himself and there is a lot to be learned from her mission. Again, it is your loss. And that a woman is unable to appreciate that, sincerely makes me feel that any such woman as is unable to appreciate that may be does nto appreciate herself as well, and feels guilty enough to not allow herself to believe in a woman prophet sent by God, unless males give their permission for that.

She is allowed to be a "mother virgin", although the qur'an does not say that, at least not "clearly" by your own standards, but she is not allowed to be a prophet. Is it that what we are able to get from the Qur'an? So what was she? Please not the siddiqa part, because that is no mission or grade or function, but a quality that many peole share, prophets included. Too bad for us if it is so. So what was she if not a prophet? Because clearly God gave her a mission. Or do you deny that?

Salaam

Man_of_Faith

She successfully abstained from the world and was rewarded for it, and it was not only her virginity she was rewarded for but overall piety. She had great insight.

And it is a false rumor that prophets have to be scripture-bearers because there are several who did not really involve themselves in such activity. Jesus is one of them and John the Baptist is another. John the Baptist was so abstained from the world that he barely owned anything at all. This insight was what made them great prophets and not for any earthly material something is written on.

On the other hand, there were people who wrote about events they had seen involving the prophet such as Jesus where his disciples wrote down what they had seen.

Salaam

seekingthetruth

Salam,

And no, khatam does not mean seal, no matter how many scholars say it.

Salaam

What does "khatam" or "khatim" mean in your opinion?

Salaam seekingthetruth,

No, surely rasuul is more like a beacon than messenger. A relay, but it does not need to be speaking of concrete information but to be a role model. Messenger is a bit ambiguous.

Nabi is such as that I said and they do not need to write or compose scriptures. Quran does not have to clearly write out that someone is a nabi. It is a general term for insight into Allah. If you know the dynamics of Allah then you are a nabi, no matter if people deny you or not. It is up to each person to accept you though, the nabi could care less and they do not turn violent or initiate wars to convince people (see traditional Islam).

Salaam

Yes, not every nabi has a scripture. I guess that every nabi is rasool and not vise versa. Check this link it is more elaborated, but it is in Arabic

http//islambouli.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/blog-post_9480.html?m=1

It could be right, it could be wrong, but i find it convincing. If you can't read it in Arabic i'll summarize and translate it.

I am ok with the idea of not all prophets are mentioned in Quran, some scholars suggest that even Buddha and Zoroaster are prophets. It is ok, but mentioning Maryam in many verses in Quran without describing her as a prophetess, sure there is a reason. Either she is not a prophetess, or there is a reason for not describing her as a prophet and not counting her with other prophets while she is a prophet.

Regards,

seekingthetruth

Believe whatever you will about Maryam. She will not be less of a prophet because of your believe and it is not she or I or anybody who believe in her as a prophet who will suffer a loss, but those who do not believe who lose.

You must be damned sure that she is not a prophet in order to disqualigy her as such, because the Qur'an orders us to believe in God's prohets. She certainly gets more praise and place in the Qur'an as many other "admitted prophets", and not all of them them are called prophets in the Qur'an. But again, if you gain nothing from Maryam, too bd for you. There is a lot, an awful lot to be gained from her prophatship by the believers, not her loss but your loss. Just the same as with any other prophet. If you do not believe in Muhammad or Musa or Yusuph, it is your loss. not anybody else's loss, and I wonder whether when we disbelieve a prophet we are not in fact disbelieving the whole lot of them, because, as the Qur'an says, they are all one. If because she is a woman we do not believe in her as a prophet, then all the prophets are demeaned.

She carried out her mission with praise from God, she was commanded by God himself and there is a lot to be learned from her mission. Again, it is your loss. And that a woman is unable to appreciate that, sincerely makes me feel that any such woman as is unable to appreciate that may be does nto appreciate herself as well, and feels guilty enough to not allow herself to believe in a woman prophet sent by God, unless males give their permission for that.

She is allowed to be a "mother virgin", although the qur'an does not say that, at least not "clearly" by your own standards, but she is not allowed to be a prophet. Is it that what we are able to get from the Qur'an? So what was she? Please not the siddiqa part, because that is no mission or grade or function, but a quality that many peole share, prophets included. Too bad for us if it is so. So what was she if not a prophet? Because clearly God gave her a mission. Or do you deny that?

Salaam

Salam,

I get it i get it, it is my loss and i'll try to live with it for the rest of my life , poor me!

Please distinguish between what i believe and what i want to believe. It is much better for me and more relieving to consider her as a prophetess, but not because i am a woman or a feminist, i would consider things as facts to make things look better, while it is not mentioned clearly in Quran. I did not deny her role and her great mission, but again, if Allah wants to call her a prophetess in Quran, he could easily do it.

Salam,

huruf

Yes God can do anything, like

11.12. IS IT, then, conceivable that thou couldst omit any part of what is being revealed unto thee because thy heart is distressed at their saying, "Why has not a treasure been bestowed upon him from on high?" -or, " an angel come with him?" thou art only a warner, whereas God has everything in His care.

2.118. AND those who are devoid of knowledge say, "Why does God not speak unto us, nor is a sign shown to us?" Even thus, like unto what they, say, spoke those who lived before their time their hearts are all alike. Indeed, We have made all the signs manifest unto people who are endowed with inner certainty.

Yes, God can fulfill all our conditions and demands. He can, but He does not. It is our loss if we behave like spoilt brats. He is the one who sets conditions and demands. Not us. And yes, it is our loss if we miss a prophet, and a very significant one at that.

You say you you will try to live with that, and poor you. Fine with me, I do not get a percentages on this.

And what is it to do to believe with being woman or feminist? I am both but it is not relevant. Do you think males would need less than women to believe in porphets and in Maryam's prophethood? Might be they need it more. Only I thought, because of life experiences which are exclusive of women, a woman is in better position to get the message, though, of course, what is logic is not always true.

66.12. And Maryam the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into her of Our spirit; and she confirmed the words of her Lord and His Books, and was one of the devout (servants).

21.91. And (remember) her who guarded her chastity We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds.

There is plenty on this question, but just have you verified that every single male considered as prophet in the Qur'an has right beside his name also de denomination of prophet? I do not think it is so, although I am not going to verify it becuse to me that is not a need, but if it is it for somebody then it might be better to verify.

And yes, it is the loss of those who do not believe in Maryam's prophethood. So it is. I don't mind repeating it. She has a message, she has a mission, she is a sign from God confrims His scriptures, and God sends the prophets for our benefit, not for some holding of titles or degrees that get them honour from men. They are a rahma for the peoples, so yes, it is our loss if we fail to appreciate their message nd warnings.

May God bless them all and make us benefit from their devotion.

Salaam

Man_of_Faith

Seekingthetruth,

Khatam is to cause an impression or effect upon something. It is important to notice that in the alleged "seal of prophets" it says like impression/effect of insightful ones. You can check something like Lane's for this. It is usually all but the traditional interpretation for words which are right so it is quite easy to figure it out. It may also refer to a sort of outer coating like protective layer so it could be a circle like circle/group of nabi. In chapter two it says khatam on their hearts but it may as well be an affection on their hearts.

I do not see any distinction between rasuul or nabi. They are simply different words for a different purpose in the context about the same kind of people. Rasuul is a beacon, like someone showing the way and nabi refers to insight. It requires insight to successfully lead the way so I do not isolate each case individually. Messenger is a bit too narrow word for rasuul because they teach a whole consciousness.

Salaam

seekingthetruth